Drawn-Out Primary Fight Will Weaken Crucial DNC Fundraising Efforts

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Huffington Post   |  Thomas Edsall and Amanda Michel
First Posted: 02-19-08 01:22 AM   |   Updated: 03-28-08 02:46 AM

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Clinton And Obama

DNC Executive Director Tom McMahon issued a response to this article, which you can find at the end of this post.

The longer the primary fight between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama stretches out, the more it will weaken the fundraising capacity of the Democratic National Committee, a crucial source of financial and staff support for the general election nominee.

While energized rank and file Democrats have turned out in record numbers, the DNC, nevertheless, ended 2007 nearly broke, after embarking on two expensive projects -- the building of a national voter file and a 50-state staffing program -- according to reports filed at the Federal Election Commission.

DNC chair Howard Dean has not been able to transfer the fundraising prowess he demonstrated during his 2004 presidential bid to the national party.

Some sources said many donors stopped contributing in retaliation for the failure of the newly elected Democratic House and Senate majorities to stop, or force major cutbacks, in the war in Iraq. In addition, many of the donors Dean brought in during the 2004 campaign have transferred their loyalties to Obama.

That leaves unexplained, however, why the Democratic Senatorial and Congressional Committees are breaking all records, while the DNC has effectively stagnated.

The DNC's bottom line, according to most experts, will not improve significantly until the party settles on a nominee. Once that happens, many donors, if past history is a guide, will give to the DNC to boost prospects of taking over the White House.

At the moment, however, both the Obama and Clinton campaigns are gearing up for the fight to continue at least until early June when the last primary is scheduled, and perhaps all the way to the August convention in Denver.

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The delay could prove particularly damaging to Obama, if he wins the nomination, because he is considering taking a limited amount of public money to finance his general election campaign. If he does take public money, he will be looking to the DNC to provide hundreds of millions of dollars to help pay for both staff in battleground states and for pro-Democratic radio and television advertising.

Clinton has made it clear that she is very likely to reject public financing if nominated. Even so, she would be looking to the DNC to raise cash. Donors who have "maxed out" to either Clinton or Obama, by giving a total of $4600 to be split between the primary and the general elections, can still give as much as another $25,000 directly to the party committee.

The importance to the DNC of settling on a nominee early was clearly demonstrated in 2004. Then, John Kerry effectively won the nomination in March.

In February and March of that year, DNC receipts were a modest $5.7 million and $6.6 million, respectively. In April 2004, with a nominee in place, the cash flow nearly tripled to $16.2 million. By August, it was at $27.6 million, and by October it reached $63 million. Overall, for 2003-4, the DNC raised a massive $360.6 million.

By the end of 2007, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee had a net balance (cash on hand minus debts) of $33.7 million. The DSCC had a net of $27.9 million. Both of these committees raised substantially more than their Republican Congressional and Senatorial counterparts, and began 2008 with millions more dollars to spend on the election.

Alone among Democratic committees, the DNC has been substantially bettered by its Republican counterpart, the RNC. The RNC raised $85.7 million in 2007 to the DLC's $54.8 million, and had a net cash balance at the start of 2008 of $17.3 million compared to the DLC's $730,000.

In January, according to Stacy Paxton, DNC spokeswoman, the flow of contributions improved modestly with the beginning of the primaries and caucuses, pushing the balance in the bank up to $3.3 million as of February 1.

At the same time in 2004, the DNC was in a significantly better cash position with over $10 million in the bank.

Paxton argued that the cash balance does not take into account the creation of a nationwide field staff assembled through Dean's "50 state program" -- financing four staffers in each state, at a cost of up to $10 million annually.

In addition, Paxton said, the DNC has developed and refined a national voter list at a cost of more than $10 million.

Others, including Democratic House Caucus chair Rahm Emanuel, have been sharply critical of the 50-state program, arguing that it is a waste of valuable resources in many states that will never vote for a Democratic presidential candidate.

Some of Dean's harshest critics are now top advisers to the Clinton campaign.

Neither Clinton nor Obama, however, wants to do anything to offend Dean at this moment, because his decisions could play a crucial role both in determining whether the disputed Florida and Michigan delegations will be seated, and in shaping the debate over the potentially decisive role of "superdelegates" in picking the nominee.

Asked to comment on the currently weak position of the DNC, Howard Wolfson, Clinton's communication director, said "Democrats are incredibly energized and both candidates are raising record amounts. Money is not going to be problem for the DNC."

Top aides to Obama declined to comment.

--------------------------------------------

DNC Executive Director Tom McMahon: "A few points were missing from today's post by Thomas Edsall and Amanda Michel, "Drawn-Out Primary Fight Will Weaken Crucial DNC Fundraising Efforts." First, make no mistake, the DNC will have the resources to compete and win in November. We raised $8.5 million more in 2007 than in 2003, and in January, we raised $5 million and retired all but $250,000 of the debt the DNC took on to help take back the House and Senate in 2006. What's different this year is that the DNC is making early investments in infrastructure and technology so our nominee can hit the ground running. One key lesson learned from past presidential elections was the importance of making early investments in infrastructure, planning and staff. It's true that fundraising hasn't taken off as it will once we have a nominee. Our strong Democratic candidates are raising record amounts, which may limit contributions to the DNC now, but will create more opportunities to raise record amounts once we have a nominee."

DNC Executive Director Tom McMahon issued a response to this article, which you can find at the end of this post. The longer the primary fight between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama stretches out,...
DNC Executive Director Tom McMahon issued a response to this article, which you can find at the end of this post. The longer the primary fight between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama stretches out,...
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OT, but I think everyone should know this:
"What we have learned over this year is that hope is making a comeback. It is making a comeback. And let me tell you something -- for the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country. And not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change. And I have been desperate to see our country moving in that direction and just not feeling so alone in my frustration and disappointment. I've seen people who are hungry to be unified around some basic common issues, and it's made me proud."
The first time? Stomach-turning.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:47 AM on 02/19/2008
- Ndri789 I'm a Fan of Ndri789 2 fans permalink

Maybe you should listen to some black Baptist preachers more often.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:41 AM on 02/19/2008
- zozosmom I'm a Fan of zozosmom 3 fans permalink

Right, and when the white evangelicals do this, the so-called progressives scorn and scoff and call it violating separation of church and state. But somehow that old time AA religion is good enough for them. Double standard or just elitist, wealthy white folks not taking black people and their religion seriously? It's so hard to tell. I think these white latte liberals think they will be the ones in control of an Obama presidency. When Obama's AA religious base wants an anti-abortion judge on the Supreme Court and wants to keep teaching abstinence only and wants money for homophobic faith-based programs and wants a marriage amendment to the Constitution--will they still be okay with that old time religion?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:44 PM on 02/19/2008
photo

The very premise of the authors' argue is false. The American people are fed-up with the "above the law" attitude and actions of the boooosh administration. My father-in-law, a dyed in the wool conservative (and former memeber of the John Birch Society http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Societyy)) is now contributing to Hillary's campaign! I'm trying to convince him that Obama is a better choice for the country but he's still stuck on Hillary. He won't go near McWarbrain.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:46 AM on 02/19/2008
- sarge I'm a Fan of sarge 18 fans permalink

What's with the picture?

They've photoshopped a picture of Hillary looking 40 and cute, with Obama checking out her ass!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:35 AM on 02/19/2008
- rbspickles I'm a Fan of rbspickles 9 fans permalink

OMG your right! LOL :D

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:00 AM on 02/19/2008
- sarge I'm a Fan of sarge 18 fans permalink

I made it the subject of a diary here:

http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=6176

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 AM on 02/19/2008
- Ndri789 I'm a Fan of Ndri789 2 fans permalink

Focus on the gutter...like everything else highlighted here!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:42 AM on 02/19/2008
- riverhorse I'm a Fan of riverhorse 4 fans permalink

doesn't cost anything to look.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 AM on 02/19/2008
photo

I was gonna ask that question too. Is it photoshopped? Ain't photo shopping kind like plagarism or something equally unethical?

BTW she does have nice big can!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:55 AM on 02/19/2008
- zozosmom I'm a Fan of zozosmom 3 fans permalink

I don't think it's photoshopped. Obama constantly looks down his nose at Hillary. It's part of his macho schtick.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:46 PM on 02/19/2008
- 957 I'm a Fan of 957 15 fans permalink

You know that article is just bullshit.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:26 AM on 02/19/2008
- colette I'm a Fan of colette 28 fans permalink
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What's really scaring me: with 24/7 media, whoever is up must come down otherwise there'd be nothing to talk about. So first lotsa awe for Obama, then Hillary is the comeback kid, then back to Obama momentum, and now: Hillary could pull it off and Obama's bubble is bursting.
That "liberal" rag the NY Times shamelessly bangs the drum for Hillary -- I get what William Crystal and snarkmaster David Brooks are doing, but what is up with Paul Krugman spitting nails. Maybe (who knows?) he's pissed at Obama for ignoring his advice on health insurance?
Meanwhile there are, trust me, millions of young people out there who are excited about a candidate for the first time, but don't have the big-picture maturity (or resignation, whatever) to vote for any Democrat over any Republican. They'll sit this one out if Obama isn't on the ticket -- but why would he be, if Hillary tops it? Four years of hoping Hillary Clinton will give you the time of day, after huddling with chief advisor and co-president Bill?
Yup, I'm getting scared. We Dems can't lose this one, folks! The world can't take much more Republican rule!
And it just saddens me to see the fresh energy generated by Obama's candidacy sputter out in a protracted war with the Clintons, who seem to care less whether they're ripping apart the party....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:24 AM on 02/19/2008
- Pepper14 I'm a Fan of Pepper14 2 fans permalink

Dems will lose because both Hillary and Obama will be so damaged by the time this is settled that McCain will look very good and this will be true if it looks like the dems increase seats in the congress but that is becoming a big question because I just saw a new generic poll that the GOP has caught up with the Dems and are only down 4 points now which really makes them even. What is remarkable about this poll is that the dems had a 20 point lead.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:17 AM on 02/19/2008
- apcalc I'm a Fan of apcalc 2 fans permalink

Obama is ripping up the party.


Obama will get crushed in the general. He will win no southern state - none - and McCain will mop up the midwest-along with Pennsylvania.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:50 AM on 02/19/2008
- dotbed1 I'm a Fan of dotbed1 2 fans permalink

Hillary & her people need to stop attacking Obama and Obama needs to nto allow the media to force him into a fight . This is what the media has been laying dead for . They love drama, no drama no high ratings . Some one needs to direct the media to stick to the issues and stop forcing dog fights between the canidates. Thei is why the best person for the job never gets into the WH , not sence Kennedy .The last TWO presidents time have come and gone and they need to do something else with their lives . We live in america and not some country where the same people government for life .If we don't sent the right person to the WH this time , the young people that are so excited about the election this time will never get involved again.Tis pre-planned presidency needs to end.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 AM on 02/19/2008
- zozosmom I'm a Fan of zozosmom 3 fans permalink

Do you think McCain won't attack Obama? You people think somehow politics will stop becasue your guy made a speech saying "unity!." You had better get ready for the firestorm coming form the Republicans. And crying, "Stop! Mom, the Republicans are being MEAN!" well, it ain't going to help. And remember, Hillary has been playing light. If you think she has been tough, you are so sadly going to get your bubble burst when the Republicans hit their stride. I'm looking forward to watching it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:49 PM on 02/19/2008

If Obama were to concede and accept VP now, with a nearly insurmountable lead in delegates, how would that look?

I'm not talking about Obama's voters, I'm talking about the entire country. The conspiracy mills would be working overtime trying to figure out how that one happened.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:52 AM on 02/19/2008
- JJinWI I'm a Fan of JJinWI 8 fans permalink
    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:21 AM on 02/19/2008
- Pepper14 I'm a Fan of Pepper14 2 fans permalink

Obama would kill his political career if he accepts the VP post because he has campaigned on change and that voting for Hillary is the old way of doing business. If he became part of that team his word would mean nothing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:21 AM on 02/19/2008
- Ndri789 I'm a Fan of Ndri789 2 fans permalink

He has no political career...only a religious on...PREACHER!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:44 AM on 02/19/2008

What's new about obama????? Being supported by ted kennedy is also the old way of doing business. Calling the republicans the party of ideas is a new way???
Obama would benefit greatly by being VP for 4 years. Blaming a fellow dem for the Iraq debacle is the new way???? No thanks. If obama gets the nomination, I will hold my nose and vote for him, but there is nothing new about obama. Politicians have been running on hope for over two centuries now. They all claim they will bring hope and change.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:09 AM on 02/19/2008

How much money do you need when there are only two candidates to vote for? During the primaries when there are more than a handful I could see spending money on TV spots to distinguish yourself from the pack, but when there are only two candidates any literate voter should be able to find out what the candidates stands for by reading the newspaper.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:46 AM on 02/19/2008

You need all the money you can get. TV ads are like a 10th of it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:55 AM on 02/19/2008

money buys elections in the US. The one who spends the most always wins.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:42 AM on 02/19/2008
- Seafarer61 I'm a Fan of Seafarer61 9 fans permalink

The only way I'd vote for Obama is if Clinton was the VP candidate.

There...I've said it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:34 AM on 02/19/2008
- Seafarer61 I'm a Fan of Seafarer61 9 fans permalink

...and I wouldn't blame Obama supporters for having same sentiments about Clinton. This is such a no-brainer ticket, I wish they both would get past their egos and make it happen...no matter who gets the nomination.

That is the QUICKEST way to get this party back and create the juggernaut that would annihilate McCain, who could pick Jesus as his VP and it wouldn't matter.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:37 AM on 02/19/2008

Everytime I start to think along those lines, (i.e., my candidate or NO ONE), I think of poor Justice Stephens who's heading into his 90's. It's an open secret that he's just waiting for a Democrat to get elected so he can retire.

I don't think he can last another four years. Can you imagine a Supreme Court with Roberts as the swing vote? God almighty.

(and the unity ticket is a bad idea - the symbolism is just too ugly. And I don't see Clinton taking VP anyway.)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:45 AM on 02/19/2008
- dotbed1 I'm a Fan of dotbed1 2 fans permalink

Hillary & Obam need to get their heads together and discuss the fact that between the TWO of them they have far more votes than the republicans and together they can go to the WH regardless to which is president or vp . It is theirs to loose . If they allow the media to force them to say hateful words about eachother , it will not work . Obama needs to continue to take the high road .

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:57 AM on 02/19/2008
- apcalc I'm a Fan of apcalc 2 fans permalink

I'm 100% with you seafarer61.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:51 AM on 02/19/2008

Hillary says Barack Obama is stealing her programs and pretending they are his own.

Hillary says Obama is all fluff and the ideas he puts out there have no substance.

Does this mean that Hillary's programs have no substance?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:32 AM on 02/19/2008
- Seafarer61 I'm a Fan of Seafarer61 9 fans permalink

No, I think what she is saying is when he talks about HIS programs, he should provide HER details.

bwahahaha

gotta love politics.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:43 AM on 02/19/2008

With all this talk about the stealing of programs, John Edwards must be on his ninth heart-attack.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:59 AM on 02/19/2008
- sef2121 I'm a Fan of sef2121 5 fans permalink

Weakened fundraising? How about weakened the party? Five minutes on the Huffpost will tell you just how much each camp hates each other, with many Obamas refusing to vote for HRC and the HRCs slowly adopting the same tone. I am beginning to think that no party has either chance of winning the states that matter in the general to garner the presidency. This nomination fight has weakened the Democratic party, made it look polarized and pit the HRCs against the Obamas. It is doomed for us and we will have eight years of McCain. I personally can't stand Obama but I would give him my half-hearted vote like I did with Kerry if he got the nomination. Many people on both side won't do this, however, and we are doomed, doomed doomed. Are best bet is HRC-prez Obama VP but personally I think Richardson, Biden or Clark would be a far superior VP.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:28 AM on 02/19/2008

Democrats will vote for the democratic candidate, period.

What I'M worried about is that whoever wins is going to come out of this election with negative attacks already ruining their chances.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:48 AM on 02/19/2008
- in4success I'm a Fan of in4success 44 fans permalink

thanks to hillary -- i won't vote for her under any circumstances, i'll stay home -- i refuse to vote for a hawk and have the death's of tens of thousands of innocent women and children on my conscious.

particularly, a neo-con mole that lies and tries to destroy anything good just to feed a lust for power.

you will find that i am not alone. there will be a bad taste in the mouths of many if she continues siding with mccain to knock obama out -- even when mccain has an agenda on funding. if you don't know what i am talking about you shouldn't be voting in the first place.

bill and hillary are disgusting. they are part of the NWO . . . people need to wake the fuck up.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:08 AM on 02/19/2008

I think this is a problem. The negative ads need to stop. These candidates should run on their own records or policies.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:17 AM on 02/19/2008
- ntmessage I'm a Fan of ntmessage 38 fans permalink

Obama loses the general, Clinton wins. Unity ticket with Clinton Obama ensures 16 years of democratic rule. DNC is short money? Maybe some of the donations from Florida and Michigan have dried up since they unilaterally disenfranchised the voters there and ended up rigging the election.

Obama loses MI, FL, PA, OH, NM, CO, NV, AK, TN, KY in the primary. Hillary wins all of these states. Obama Picks up Missouri and Iowa. He falls short in electoral college, McCain will be 4 more years of Buch. She wins.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:25 AM on 02/19/2008
- ayc I'm a Fan of ayc 14 fans permalink

What are you smoking? Senator Clinton has the highest negatives of any candidate in the race. Do you understand what that means? Quit spinning and start thinking.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:36 AM on 02/19/2008
- in4success I'm a Fan of in4success 44 fans permalink

they aren't thinking . . . they are dreaming. (or) they are righty trolls.

clintons are working for the zionist neo-cons to fracture the party so the same fascist bastards can retain power.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:49 AM on 02/19/2008

need I remind you who had the highest negatives going into the 2004 election? and look who won

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:17 AM on 02/19/2008
- Ndri789 I'm a Fan of Ndri789 2 fans permalink

Brainwashed by the MSM...I guess it is because her negatives are so high that she won NY Senate twice with LARGE margins...even reluctant Repugs voted for her!!!
Get real, remove the blinders, stop getting talking points from the manipulating MSM and under-cover Repugs!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:51 AM on 02/19/2008
- zozosmom I'm a Fan of zozosmom 3 fans permalink

Obama has not faced any negative press, has not faced negative Republican attack ads, has not faced the assault of Republican 527 groups. His negatives will go way up when he faces off in the general. Hillary's negatives have topped out because everyone already knows all the negative things becasue they have been saying them for years and the Obama supporters have been repeating all the Republican talking points. And she is still in the game! Obama's negatives can only go up and go through the roof they will. This is the Republican plan. They are just waiting for him to get the nomination and then they will open fire. Any Obama supporter who doesn't realize this is living in an alternate universe.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:01 PM on 02/19/2008
- xcrunner77 I'm a Fan of xcrunner77 14 fans permalink

That;s not what the polls nor Republicans say. The polls show Obama beats McCain, Hillary is either even or loses. Those states Hillary won in the primary (just barely)would be won by Obama in a general election. You can try to make up facts if you want to but it won't change reality -- like the reality that Clinton is losing to Obama. (What happened to the "inevitable" coronation? Hmm?)

Republicans themselves have said of Obama "I don't know how to fight this guy". McCain's own campaign manager said he would quit if Obama is the nominee rather than run against him, so formidible is Obama.

Hillary would unite the Republican party and ensure a McCain win. That is obvious to everyone except the Clintonistas. Republicans are praying for Hillary to get the nomination. (One of my diehard Republican friends said he was considering donating money to her because he knows she's the only candidate they could beat. The other has already switched his vote to Obama)

Show me some logic that has Clinton winning... yes, she won those large states -- among Democrats!! (And in most cases just barely. All of Obama's wins have been by huge margins, not 2-5%.) That's not enough to win an election. Obama wins Dems + independents + some Republicans.

Someone needs to show Hillary this math and get her to drop out gracefully.

If Obama had lost 8 races in a row -- 3 of them by margins of 2 to 1, just like south Carolina -- people would be howling for him to drop out. But for some reason it's okay for Hillary to just keep going.

Why? Because she's a Clinton. And Clintons have some magical power of winning elections... except for the part where they can't win 8 contests in a row (about to be 10?) against a black freshman Senator in a racist country. wow, that's some magic those Clintons have got. You can see how well they'd do against Republicans since they're wiping the mat with Obama so easily.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:56 AM on 02/19/2008
- in4success I'm a Fan of in4success 44 fans permalink

i don't think they're listening, kiddo... to their peril... and ours, unfortunately.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:12 AM on 02/19/2008
- vsign I'm a Fan of vsign 33 fans permalink

Words are important! Obama is so weak, his followers have to carry him. He's their savior, so they don't mind.

Well - The Democratic Party can't afford "to carry" Obama. He can never beat McCain, not even as a democrat. We've got to drop him FAST!

Stand on your own feet Obama. Speak your own words.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:57 AM on 02/19/2008

This is the new Tony Rezko.

I expect people to keep repeating this until they realize it isn't working.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:49 AM on 02/19/2008
- in4success I'm a Fan of in4success 44 fans permalink

obama's weak?

hillary's the one grabbing at playground straws to keep her head above water.

jesus christ! where the fuck do you idiots get your rationale, george bush?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:20 AM on 02/19/2008
photo

Latest polls have Obama ahead in Wisconsin - http://www.usaelectionpolls.com/2008/wisconsin.html (PPP) - (This is an open primary)

Obama and Clinton within the margin of error in Texas - http://www.usaelectionpolls.com/2008/texas.html (CNN)

Clinton ahead in Ohio - http://www.usaelectionpolls.com/2008/texas.html (RR)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:19 AM on 02/19/2008
- dahlenu I'm a Fan of dahlenu 4 fans permalink

I hope Obama will beat Hillary in at least Texas. If so, Hillary really should concede and it's over.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:50 AM on 02/19/2008
- Lisette I'm a Fan of Lisette 38 fans permalink
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But, Hillary is like a dog with a bone, she won't let go.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:02 AM on 02/19/2008
- in4success I'm a Fan of in4success 44 fans permalink

why are you insulting dogs?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:15 AM on 02/19/2008
- zozosmom I'm a Fan of zozosmom 3 fans permalink

Why should she? The people are voting for her. Who the hell are you to tell her to throw it in?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:09 PM on 02/19/2008
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