Dean Urges Do-Overs in Florida, Michigan

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JOAN LOWY | March 6, 2008 11:51 PM EST | AP

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Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean delivers a guest lecture to a class in comparative politics at Dartmouth College in Hanover, N.H., in this May file photo. Dean urged Florida and Michigan party officials to come up with plans to repeat their presidential nominating contests so that their delegates can be counted. (AP Photo/Toby Talbot, FILE)

WASHINGTON — The former head of the Democratic National Committee doubted Thursday whether chairman Howard Dean would be able to get approval for do-over presidential nomination contests in Florida and Michigan.

"It'll be a hellacious battle," said Don Fowler, a former DNC chairman who sits on the party's rule-making committee.

Before the primaries started, "Howard Dean had enough votes to get most everything he wanted. Now that this thing has gone as far as it has and the lines have formed according to candidates, I'm not sure how that vote would shake out now," said Fowler, who has endorsed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Nonetheless, Fowler said, something has to be done, "the rules be damned," to seat delegates from states Democrats have to and can win in the general election. "We're going to forfeit those two big states? What kind of fools would we be," he said.

Officials in Michigan and Florida have shown renewed interest in holding repeat nominating contests, and Dean has urged party officials in both states to come up with plans for how that can be done so their delegates can be counted at the national convention in late August.

"All they have to do is come before us with rules that fit into what they agreed to a year and a half ago, and then they'll be seated," Dean said Thursday during interviews on network and cable TV news programs.

Dean said the parties will have to pay for new contests.

"We can't afford to do that. That's not our problem. We need our money to win the presidential race," he said. The DNC offered to pay for an alternative contest in Florida last summer but was turned down, officials at the party say.

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Sen. Bill Nelson of Florida, another of Clinton's supporters, also called for a new Florida primary, but paid for by the national party. Nelson and Dean spoke by telephone Thursday evening and Dean reiterated that the DNC will not pay for a new primary.

Cost may be a barrier. During a meeting Wednesday night among House Democrats from Florida and Michigan, Rep. Alcee Hastings of Florida relayed estimates that another primary would cost the state between $22 million and $24 million, a vote-by-mail contest would cost at least $8 million and the bill for a caucus would be about $4 million, said Hastings spokesman David Goldenberg.

In Michigan, the cost could be as high as $10 million, depending on the type of contest, according to Democratic officials. Liz Boyd, a spokeswoman for Democratic Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm, said Thursday evening that nothing had been ruled out but it was beginning to appear as if the cost and logistics may be insurmountable.

Republican Florida Gov. Charlie Crist said Thursday he would sign a bill for a new Democratic primary _ legislative approval is required _ but only if it was a last resort and only if the national party pays for it. But that seems unlikely, given Dean's insistence that he won't pay.

Top officials in Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign and Florida's state party chair all now say they would consider holding a sort of do-over contest by June. Officials in both states previously had insisted that the primaries held in January should determine how their delegates are allocated.

Clinton said she'd wait to see what proposals are put forward.

She won both contests, but no delegates. The results were meaningless since the elections violated national party rules. The DNC stripped both states of their delegates for holding the primaries too early, and all Democratic candidates _ including Clinton and rival Barack Obama _ agreed not to campaign in either state. Obama's name wasn't even on the Michigan ballot.

"I think it would be a grave disservice to the voters of Florida and Michigan to adopt any process that would disenfranchise anyone," Clinton said at a news conference Thursday. "Therefore I am still committed to seating their delegations, and I know they are working with the Democratic Party to determine how best to proceed."

She said it would be especially unfair to punish the 1.7 million Floridians who voted in the Democratic primary since the Republican-controlled Legislature and the state's Republican governor changed the date.

"They clearly believed that their votes would count, and I think that there has to be a way to make them count," Clinton said.

Obama said Thursday that the DNC should decide how to settle the dispute.

"I think it's important to make sure that people of Michigan and Florida feel as if they're part of this process and that they're heard. And we've just decided that we're going to play by whatever the rules the DNC has set forth," he told ABC News. "That's what we've done from the start.

"And I'll leave it up to the Democratic National Committee to make a decision about how to resolve it. But I certainly want to make sure that we've got Michigan and Florida delegates at the convention in some fashion," Obama said.

He said the DNC also should decide how to pay for any new contest.

Florida and Michigan moved up their contests to protest the party's decision to allow Iowa and New Hampshire to go first, followed by South Carolina and Nevada.

"The rules were set a year and a half ago," Dean said. "Florida and Michigan voted for them, then decided that they didn't need to abide by the rules. Well, when you are in a contest you do need to abide by the rules. Everybody has to play by the rules out of respect for both campaigns and the other 48 states."

___

Associated Press writers Jim Davenport in Columbia, S.C., Tim Martin in Lansing, Mich., and Brendan Farrington in Tallahassee, Fla., contributed to this report.

WASHINGTON — The former head of the Democratic National Committee doubted Thursday whether chairman Howard Dean would be able to get approval for do-over presidential nomination contests in Flor...
WASHINGTON — The former head of the Democratic National Committee doubted Thursday whether chairman Howard Dean would be able to get approval for do-over presidential nomination contests in Flor...
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It is most amazing to me that the people who scream loudest about following the rules, rarely know what the rules actually are. Instead the choose to talk about what they wish the rules were based on their own biased concepts.

The rules for FL and MI have always included the possibility of a re-do. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's against the rules.

With super delegates, the rules have always been that they can vote for whoever they want to. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it against the rules.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:31 PM on 03/06/2008
- Oldtt I'm a Fan of Oldtt 36 fans permalink
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No one will be satisfied with anything short of a full primary in both states to assure maximum fairness. Howard Dean is trying to negotiate in the press for both state legislatures to assume the costs for fixing the mess they created. Ultimately someone will have to pony up the money. Maybe Dean should request both the Clinton and Obama campaigns to somehow get involved in special fundraising if nothing else works. Obama won't want to do this, but he should just take his chances like Clinton or appear anti-Florida & anti-Michigan to the GE voters.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:31 PM on 03/06/2008
- Sisyphuss I'm a Fan of Sisyphuss 13 fans permalink

The candidates should NOT be involved in paying for elections. Absolutely, positively not.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:49 PM on 03/06/2008

Dream ticket - Dems

Obama / Edwards

Nightmare ticket - Dems

Clinton / Kerry

Nightmare ticket - repubs

McCain / ?????

Dream ticket - repubs

??????? / ???????

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:29 PM on 03/06/2008

"Dream ticket - repubs
??????? / ???????"

Dream ticket - repubs
Obama/Clinton or Clinton/Obama

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:34 PM on 03/06/2008

I see your Obama/Clinton or Clinton/Obama

and I raise you a

McCain / Jeb Bush.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:52 PM on 03/06/2008
photo

Dream Ticket GOP - McCain/Jesus

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:44 PM on 03/06/2008
- Sisyphuss I'm a Fan of Sisyphuss 13 fans permalink

How about Clinton/Gore? If we're going to re-live the 90s, we may as well go all the way.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:51 PM on 03/06/2008
- EinChicago I'm a Fan of EinChicago 33 fans permalink

Now Clinton/Gore or Gore/Clinton would be the dream ticket.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:26 PM on 03/06/2008

There is enough shadiness surrounding Hillary and Bill Clinton around ethics and behavior issues, that if she prevails in getting the nomination because delegates from phantom primaries are seated, it will do the Party no good against the G.O.P. in November -- because it will just strengthen the resolve of G.O.P. and Independent voters to turn out in droves to make sure the Clintons don't pull another fast one.

The only sensible and fair solution, which all Americans would understand, is Fla and Mich hold do-overs, and pay for them. Americans would agree that hey, if you deliberately break the rules and then whine about the consequences, then you better be prepared to either stop whining, or use your own resources to fund a do-over.

Meanwhile am I the only one who thinks that, with her bizarre choice to make national security and Commander-in-Chief readiness the centerpiece of her primary campaign, Mrs. Clinton will have to admit in a general election that she fails both of those tests miserably vis-a-vis a war hero such as John McCain?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:24 PM on 03/06/2008
- msmaggie I'm a Fan of msmaggie 10 fans permalink

Well I don't know, war hero status didn't do John Kerry much good! Agree with the you that the do-over is the only workable solution.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:43 PM on 03/06/2008

I don't know about anybody else, but if Hillary subverts this election and the DNC caves in to her, I will NEVER vote again. It will be proof that democracy is a joke in this country and corruption is Queen.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:23 PM on 03/06/2008
- rmetz74 I'm a Fan of rmetz74 10 fans permalink

I really don't think the DNC will allow that to happen - they know the whole country is watching, and doing that would mean major, irreversible damage to the party.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:38 PM on 03/06/2008
- 4peace I'm a Fan of 4peace 9 fans permalink

I think there is plenty of proof already that democracy is a joke in this country and corruption is Queen AND King, and I for one will not be voting again. Its a scam.

We are a one party system that represents 4% of the population.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:46 PM on 03/06/2008
- msmaggie I'm a Fan of msmaggie 10 fans permalink

So what do you suggest be done re Michigan and Florida?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:47 PM on 03/06/2008

That's an absurd position to take, and it is based on false assumptions--but hey, knock yourself out.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:36 PM on 03/06/2008

Howard Wolfson - Why doesn't HIllary - Anwser?

Instead of Wolfson avoiding the questions - Why doesn't
Hillary answer all those Questions of the 90's - and answer
Her connection to Grover????

Answer Why She thinks - Her Husbam being Impeached - Is
A good thing for America????

Anwser her White Water connections????

Answer how much money she gets - For out-sourcing American Jobs????

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS HILLARY!!!­!!!!!!!!!!­!

Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson said Obama's statement that he plans
to be more critical of Clinton's record is reminiscent of the attacks
the Clintons endured during the investigations in the 1990s.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:21 PM on 03/06/2008
- Portnoy I'm a Fan of Portnoy 15 fans permalink

I could care less, as long as the DNC doesn't give the bill (all $8 million of it) for the revote to the taxpayers because of the stupidity of its Party leaders (Debbie Dingal...I­'m talking about you.)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:20 PM on 03/06/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1583 fans permalink
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Of course the states should pay for it. They fucked up, they should pay or have their delegates excluded.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:23 PM on 03/06/2008
- Superbus I'm a Fan of Superbus 27 fans permalink
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I do believe a new primary in Florida, would bring in more tax revenue than the cost of the election. What do you think?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:39 PM on 03/06/2008
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Or just exclude them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:46 PM on 03/06/2008
- EinChicago I'm a Fan of EinChicago 33 fans permalink

That is probably the single dumbest most self-destructive statement today. Regardless of Obama/Clinton internecine fighting the big issue is the political hay the GOP will make in Florida and Michigan if the states are disenfranchised. Do you think every swing voter in each state won't be targeted with constant messaging about how the dems think their primary votes are worth less than a show of hands at an ice cream parlor social in South Carolina? If Florida and Michiganmoderates feel annoyed now, wait until McCain has finsihed whipping them into a frenzy about their stolen votes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:33 PM on 03/06/2008
- AnninCA I'm a Fan of AnninCA 54 fans permalink

Dean says the DNC will not fund this. He's essentially saying he's open to proposals, but he's not offering any solutions.

Meanwhile, the Gov. of Florida ate him for lunch today. The Republican campaign there just hit first gear obviously.

Obama has been silent. Suddenly, his mantra about "Let the Voters decide" hasn't the same feel or ring to it on this deal. Hillary has indicated that she'd rather take the disadvantage and see the voters vote, so she won't block a process that clearly doesn't favor her. That's really about all she can do to help Floridian Dems.

And Dean has not done a darn thing, really, except flap his lips and pretend to be "open."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:25 PM on 03/06/2008
- jcwtts1 I'm a Fan of jcwtts1 149 fans permalink
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Whoa, Obama said a month ago that a redo was fine. To call it redo implies that there was a do by the way and there wasn't. Clinton isn't giving anything up she is gaining something. She won nothing, the contests didn't officially happen. Now she has a chance to get some more delegates.­.. probably another 5 or so right? Since the splits when she wins usually come in tight. If Obama wins, and I call Michigan for him now, he'll probably remain consistent and go 60 -40 which will get him about 20 delegates. So again, after this 50 million dollar expense, where are we? Obama has the most delegates, he wins.

J

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:45 PM on 03/06/2008
- rmetz74 I'm a Fan of rmetz74 10 fans permalink

In fact, way back when the system was put in place, Michigan and Florida and everyone else agreed that the states would foot the bill in this situation. They knew perfectly well what the consequences would be, and what recourse they'd have. And as the article says, Dean contacted Florida early on and offered to help share the cost, and Florida refused.

They're in this situation because of their choices, and it's their responsibility to make it right. (And yes, it's totally unfair to the voters, who should remember this when they next vote for governor.)

Yes, Obama is staying out of - as should Hillary. It's between the DNC and the states. And I'd like to see evidence of Hillary saying she supports a re-vote, because everything I've seen says she simply wants the delegates seated according to the invalid votes that already took place.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:55 PM on 03/06/2008
- EinChicago I'm a Fan of EinChicago 33 fans permalink

"Meanwhile, the Gov. of Florida ate him for lunch today. The Republican campaign there just hit first gear obviously.­"

Exactly! Regardless of Obama/Clinton internecine fighting the big issue is the political hay the GOP will make in Florida and Michigan if the states are disenfranchised. Do you think every swing vote in that state won't be targeted with constant messaging about how the dems think their primary votes are worrth less than a show of hands at ice cream parlor in South Carolina? If Flordia moderates feel annoyed now, wait until mccain has finsihed whipping them into a frenzy about their stolen votes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:30 PM on 03/06/2008
- lornejl I'm a Fan of lornejl 623 fans permalink
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Freedom is never free, you have to pay for it, with freedom credits.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:18 PM on 03/06/2008

Heh. Freedom I.O.U. slips :)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:41 PM on 03/06/2008
- 4peace I'm a Fan of 4peace 9 fans permalink

Haven't you heard that freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:47 PM on 03/06/2008

Obama will probably be leading going into the convention. The only person who will benefit from Florida and Michigan is Hillary.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:17 PM on 03/06/2008
- Kyuzo I'm a Fan of Kyuzo 37 fans permalink

Even with a full re-do in FL and MI, Hillary still won't benefit much. Obama would likely take MI and Hillary would likely take FL. There's no realistic scenario where she closes the gap that doesn't involve a sea change in the superdelegates.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:48 PM on 03/06/2008
- deedrdo I'm a Fan of deedrdo 6 fans permalink

my understand is that michigan knowingly broke DNC rules by moving up their primary date. not so in florida.

the primary date in florida was determined by a republican governor and a republican legislature.

is it too late to give FLA back to spain? or maybe cuba.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:15 PM on 03/06/2008

Right, and Howard Dean is saying, let Florida and Michigan pay for their repeat primary elections.

I'd like to see Florida Republicans try to refuse to pay for the problem they caused in the Democratic Party primary -- especially if Michigan comes up with money. There would be a Blue Backlash against the Crist Administration that not even Diebold or Katherine Harris could paper over.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:53 PM on 03/06/2008
- EinChicago I'm a Fan of EinChicago 33 fans permalink

Hogwash. There will be abacklash, but not among blues. It'll be amongst purples and it will screw the dems in November. Regardless of Obama/Clinton internecine fighting the big issue is the political hay the GOP will make in Florida and Michigan if the states are disenfranchised. Do you think every swing vote in that state won't be targeted with constant messaging about how the dems think their primary votes are worrth less than a show of hands at ice cream parlor in South Carolina? If Flordia moderates feel annoyed now, wait until mccain has finsihed whipping them into a frenzy about their stolen votes. Add to that an extra argument about how teh dems want to raise your taxes in two of the most economically hard hit states to pay for an expensive recount caused by their incompeten­ce... and well.. a blind fool can get the idea.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:36 PM on 03/06/2008

Compromise: make Howard Dean the nominee.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:15 PM on 03/06/2008
- butchie65 I'm a Fan of butchie65 7 fans permalink

Hope the people in Pennsylvania are smart enough to see what Hillary has been up to. Chelsea is up there peddling her mothers crap already.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:14 PM on 03/06/2008

The real human on this thread is working hard.

I'm curious (what else is new?) to see how Huffpo handles the time change w.r.t. to 'new' indicator on the posts...

I know I need a life, I'm bored and it's raining.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:14 PM on 03/06/2008
- SpaceCadet I'm a Fan of SpaceCadet 13 fans permalink

The Democratic primary election process is like a slow-motion train wreck. McCain was the real winner of the March 4 primaries, and the national Democratic party is punishing itself by refusing to provide at least some financial assistance for redoing the Michigan and Florida primaries. They want to "save money" for the November elections, but their money won't do them any good if they lose. They can't win in November without at least one of those states, and they're likely to lose them both, now that the state parties are fighting with the national leadership.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:14 PM on 03/06/2008
- ched I'm a Fan of ched 9 fans permalink
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Prior to any primaries being held, Hillary Clinton signed a pledge to the 4 early states - Iowa, NH, SC and NV -- that FL and MI primaries wouldn't count. Obama and Edwards also signed the pledge, and even took their names off the MI ballot. Hillary "forgot."

Now, Hillary says that FL and MI should count.

In so doing, she violated her pledge to Iowa, NH, SC and NV.

Because she violated her contract with those states, her delegates that resulted from those contests should be withdrawn, and either awarded to the remaining candidate who didn't violate the pledge (Obama), or freed to vote for whomever they choose.

I hear the delegates in the early states are pretty pissed at the Clinton camp for lying about their intentions in FL and MI. NH and Iowa especially take their first in the nation status pretty seriously. I wonder how many NH and Iowa voters would have supported Hillary in either state if she'd told them in advance that she supported early primaries in FL and MI.

Regardless of how you feel about the disproportionate impact of Iowa and NH, the fact is that Hillary did a bait and switch on them. For those who know the Clintons well, hardly surprising. But for those who relied on her good faith promise to protect the early primary states, good reason to take away her delegates.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:11 PM on 03/06/2008
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Hillary is not in charge of the election. This issue is about the DNC and the voters votes that the DNC threw in the garbage. Not about the obsession over Hillary so many people have. It's about the election process. NOT about the Clintons. The Clintons do not control this... facts are very hard to deal with. But I am amazed at how much power people thinks she has.

The paranoia is getting out of hand.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:26 PM on 03/06/2008
- AnninCA I'm a Fan of AnninCA 54 fans permalink

Amazing isn't it? She even controls Republican governors.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:39 PM on 03/06/2008

It's been out of hand for quite some time. Boy...I bet Senator Clinton wishes she had as much power to control things as her haters think she does.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:42 PM on 03/06/2008
- rmetz74 I'm a Fan of rmetz74 10 fans permalink

You're absolutely right. (And I'm an Obama supporter. See how reasonable we can be?) This is happening because Crist and Granholm agreed to rules which they then broke, and now they're faced with the consequences (which, incidentally, they ALSO agreed to, including that the states would have to foot the bill for any re-votes.)

Clinton wants the delegates seated according to the invalid votes that took place, and that won't happen. So the question is, how will the states and the DNC resolve it... And you're quite right in saying she has no power over that.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:12 PM on 03/06/2008

"For those who know the Clintons well, hardly surprising. But for those who relied on her good faith promise to protect the early primary states, good reason to take away her delegates.­"

Always amusing to watch Dems waking up to the truth about the Clintons.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:26 PM on 03/06/2008
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They're not angels. But how many Americans got killed on Clinton's watch?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:49 PM on 03/06/2008
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