Bob Graham: Iraq War Vote Was Commander In Chief Test

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First Posted: 03-14-08 10:13 AM   |   Updated: 03-28-08 05:12 AM

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Former Sen. Bob Graham is staying neutral in the Democratic presidential race. But when it comes to defining the qualities that make a good commander-in-chief, he's espousing talking points that sound eerily similar to Barack Obama's.

"I don't believe there is a school you can go to, to train to be commander-in-chief," Graham said in an interview with the Huffington Post. "I think the qualities you are looking for would include, judgment, the willingness to surround yourself with strong people, listening to a diversity of ideas and then forming a conclusion. I think curiosity is important.

"If there had been a little more curiosity in the fall 2002 -- if the questions had been asked -- [it] would have raised a lot of suspicions," he said, referencing the Iraq war authorization vote. "I think you have to look to see whether those qualities exist. And if they do, you have reason to believe that the person who has those qualities would become an effective commander-in-chief."

Graham, who headed the Senate Intelligence Committee in the run up to Iraq, famously declared his war opposition after reading the National Intelligence Estimate, a document he thought did not make the case (and one that Sen. Hillary Clinton has acknowledged not reading). That aside, Graham noted that "experience" in and of itself was not a prerequisite for becoming leader of America's armed forces.

"If you look at recent presidents, certainly George W. Bush didn't have any commander-in-chief experience, neither had Bill Clinton," he said. "George H. W. Bush had served in the military. Reagan didn't serve in the military. Carter was an Annapolis graduate. He was probably as close to what you would consider prepared to be commander-in-chief of the recent presidents."

The Florida Democrat was less hesitant to weigh in on the other major campaign issue of the day -- what to do about Florida's delegates -- in part because he simply didn't have the magic bullet to resolve the crisis. But he did offer some detailed analysis and colorful metaphors.

On Florida's decision to move up its primary and the DNC's retaliation of stripping the state of its delegates:

"This was like a bank robbery. The Republicans [who controlled the legislature and governor's chair and pushed to move up the primary] were in the vault, putting their money in the bags. The Democrats were in the car out on the street, ready to drive the bank robbers away after the heist. The bank robbers in the vault got a light tap on the wrist [from the RNC] and we got a chainsaw that took off our right arm."

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On what to do to get those delegates counted at the convention:

"Our options are not many and none of them are very good. There has been a lot of interest in maybe a mail-in ballot because it is not inexpensive. But apparently there are a lot of legal problems with doing a mail-in ballot [Florida's entire House delegation opposes the idea as well]... The other two options are to try and run a full scale primary, which will be very expensive and difficult because many counties use this period in the spring and summer to switch out machinery and a number of counties say they can't physically put on an election... The third is to have a caucus, but that has never been our tradition, and it doesn't seem to have gotten much lift."

So what should be done?

"We are in a real mess. If Michigan and Florida are sufficiently teed off as a result of it, then it changes enough votes to put them in the Republican column. That represents about 45 or so electoral votes, which would be more than the margin of victory in most recent presidential elections. So it is a very bad place for Democrats. We are waiting for the Huffington Post to give us a creative option."

Um... Don't hold your breath.

Former Sen. Bob Graham is staying neutral in the Democratic presidential race. But when it comes to defining the qualities that make a good commander-in-chief, he's espousing talking points that sound...
Former Sen. Bob Graham is staying neutral in the Democratic presidential race. But when it comes to defining the qualities that make a good commander-in-chief, he's espousing talking points that sound...
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Can we all quit following the path of division and racism being put forth by the Mark Penn/Karl Rove play book and get back on the topic of issues in this election?

From everything I have read and watched concerning the potential delegate count, Hillary Clinton cannot get enough elected delegates to beat Obama. She also cannot win against McCain in November. Her negatives are too high, she has spent the past month trashing and burning any hope she has of getting Obama supporters, Independents and Republicans that dislike McCain from voting for her.

Therefore, the decent thing to do for the unity and survival of the Democratic party is for Hillary to finish out the primary process by running a POSITIVE campaign so has not to harm the eventual nominee or drop out now and concede she cannot win. Hillary Clinton will do neither.

Therefore, it is up to the Democrat party and it's political leaders to sit Hillary Clinton down for a reality check meeting. If Hillary refuses to listen, then people such as Gore, Edwards, Richardson, Biden and others need to throw their support behind the candidate that will win the primary votes and can bet McCain in November - Obama. Once big name Democrats come out in support of Obama in big numbers, the Clintons will be forced to do what is best for the party or Hillary's career will go down in flames.

Then, and only then, can the Democratic party start to try to mend the damage done by the slash and burn politics of Hillary Clinton's campaign in the past month, to bring the party bck together to unify behind one candidate. If the Democratic party fails to do this, and do it soon, the Democratic party will be so divided and things will get so ugly that they will hand the election to McCain on a silver platter.

It is time someone in the DNC show some leadership skills and stop this suicide run by Hillary Clinton while there is still a chance to alter the course of the November election. Waiting another 2 months will be too late. We will end up with McCain who backs Bush and thinks the war in Iraq should continue for years to come.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:59 PM on 03/14/2008
- Crozier I'm a Fan of Crozier 69 fans permalink

TruthBe4- No one bothered to comment upon your thread. No surprise there. It was concise and erudite, and more, it speaks the realpolitik of the moment. Yes, the Clintonista and the McInsanites are together on this blog with a common objective.­....the political assassination of the real DemocratIC Presidential Nominee, Senator Barack Obama.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:53 PM on 03/14/2008

Thank you, Senator Graham for taking the time to find out the truth before casting your vote. Thank you for doing what you thought was right based on the evidence instead of what was politically expedient. You seem to be a true man of honor and a true patriot.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:55 PM on 03/14/2008
- raker I'm a Fan of raker 87 fans permalink

Finally, a Hillary slam I can heartily agree with: the invasion and occupation vote was the test of presidential mojo, and Hillary failed it. (I'd say it even disqualifies her for reelection to the Senate.) Still, Obama mania strikes me as irrational and uncomfortably possessed of religious overtones, so here I am without a Democrat to vote for, and voting for a Republican is impossible. Where's Al Gore?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:55 PM on 03/14/2008
- Dragon5616 I'm a Fan of Dragon5616 16 fans permalink

I don't see religious overtones in Obama. I am an atheist and his political views are secular. He has a personal faith, but I don't have a problem with that as long as he doesn't impose them on me. I wholeheartedly support Obama, in part because I believe he clearly understands the division between church and state. He was, after all, a professor of constitutional law.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:09 PM on 03/14/2008
- JMorgan I'm a Fan of JMorgan 3 fans permalink

raker, what are you talking about, "religious overtones"?

If anything, the only "religion" being injected into this race thus far has been Obama's opponents either whispering that he's a Muslim, or that the pastor of the church he attends is a militant racist.

How strange that you find yourself unable to choose a candidate based on who others have chosen. If you can't think for yourself and make a decision after studying the candidates' words and actions, then perhaps you should sit this election out and not vote.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:18 PM on 03/14/2008
- raker I'm a Fan of raker 87 fans permalink

I mean the fervent, zealous, shockingly aggressive pro-Obama enthusiasm. Listen to Randi Rhodes. Oh my god. It's beyond reason. They come of as cultists. It's like the Kool-Ade drinkers who invested themselves totally in a symbol of idealism, and it destroyed them. Blind faith is toxic. Keep every candidate's feet to the fire. Make them win us over every day. Be demanding - demand more than bumper sticker slogans and charisma. Our love is not unconditional. Just ask Hillary.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:35 PM on 03/14/2008
- GQB I'm a Fan of GQB 2 fans permalink

Since when is enthusiasm a crime?

What's sad is that this country has been so starved for real leadership (as opposed to 'leaders') that when it appears, and grass-roots excitement explodes, it's confused with republican-type leader following.

Here's the short of it... Hillary says "I have the administrative skills to drive this agenda through." That's fair enough. I agree that she does, and would be ok with that approach if she gets elected.
But Obama's approach is "One of my major responsibilities as president is to inspire, motivate and move you as citizens to get involved and drive this change from the bottom. It up to YOU to pressure your representatives to support my presidential initiative­s."

Of the 2 approaches, I think Obama's has a better chance of actually getting things done. You can only drive so much from the top.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:25 PM on 03/14/2008
- Bozwellian I'm a Fan of Bozwellian 30 fans permalink

LOL, perhaps you are taking the enthusiasm that Obama generates incorrectl­y...You are missing the RELIEF felt by many figuring an AHA moment of sorts that we do NOT HAVE TO HAVE THE INEVITIBILITY OF THE CLINTON DUO RETURNED FOR ANOTHER REDEUX...N­OT ALL OF US EWERE TRULY ENCHANTED WITH THAT PROSPECT..­..and now, we have a viable candidate to champion to allow us a better choice !!! It helps too that he does speak quite well...wow­, after these bushlerized years, we are enjoying that aspect as well as a BONUS but we also find his positions and analysis of his judgement used in regards to various issues meshes with many of ours as well as shows a deliberation and an ability to consider OTHERS opinons as well as working across dividing lines...al­l very appealing and too, HIS call for transparency and attempt to provide such as well(for some NOT enough details but hey, far more than the Clintons , that is a for surer !!)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:31 PM on 03/14/2008

I think that her retention of that Senate seat should be part of the bargaining process. If she and her campaign continue to swing low blows-then she should relinquish it. Senator Bradley would perhaps be a more rounded Senator who wouldn't have voted yes to the war proposal. How many of the last ten New Yord Senators would have voted for the war?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:07 PM on 03/14/2008
- NickOhio I'm a Fan of NickOhio 2 fans permalink

Sen. Graham... I can give you an option. People have spoken of only two possibilities:

1. Let these states suffer the consequences of their actions, which, as you and others have said, leaves the door wide open for the GOP to take these states in Nov.

2. Split the delegates 50-50. This is the only real alternative, as it is not spending money, allows each of the remaining candidates to have delegates from these states in their column and avoids the problematic mail-in ballots and a re-do of the actual voting by either another primary in a polling place or a caucus.

There are no other ideas of any merit. We can probably thank Rove or one of his minions for the work they've done in these two states to really cutoff the right arm of the Dems.

I, for one, certainly wish you were back in the US Senate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:49 PM on 03/14/2008

"commander in chief" no way reflects president bush: "awol coward" would be a more appropriate title.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:55 PM on 03/14/2008
- DRPike I'm a Fan of DRPike 14 fans permalink
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1. Is a distinct possibility with the caviat that the residents of these states didn't ask for this, it was done to them by their legislators (GOP in FL) and their party leadership.

2. Is not resonable for the same reason that simply seating them as they are is not. You can split the regular delegates 50/50 but that leaves the superdelegates to, if they are honest to the spirit of their position, more of them will go to HRC.

There can be a 3. a re-do but all the reasons this could turn into a tavesty are endless.

Having said all that I think your option one is the least of the evils.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:31 PM on 03/14/2008
- Jazz42 I'm a Fan of Jazz42 6 fans permalink

Great blog Senator Graham.
I completely agree with you.
Thank you,

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:46 PM on 03/14/2008
- Superbus I'm a Fan of Superbus 27 fans permalink
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I agree with Bob Graham. However, Barack Obama did not have access to the same information as the U.S. Congress did, so his judgement seems to be based on not much more than the general public had.

In other words, he was absent when the real vote was taken.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:41 PM on 03/14/2008
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Short bus was absent when they passed out brains.

He thought they said pains and he did not want any.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:58 PM on 03/14/2008
- Jazz42 I'm a Fan of Jazz42 6 fans permalink

The poster has a history of saying things that doesn't make sense. I have been observing the poster for quiet a while now.
(Referring to Super)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:07 PM on 03/14/2008
- on2them I'm a Fan of on2them 23 fans permalink
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hahahahahahahaha!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:26 PM on 03/14/2008
- ginamc I'm a Fan of ginamc 11 fans permalink

Barack Obama always plays it safe on votes of importance, and he was NOT a U.S. Senator, so his point is moot. At least Hillary stood on principle and represented her constituency of New York and the rest of America that overwhelmingly supported the war. Stop the hypocrisy. But, after listening carefully to Obama's Mentor and father-figure -- Rev. Wright's sermons about the U.S., one can readily understand why he would have that anti-war positioin. That guy genuinely despises America. Obama is a FAR-LEFT crusader who really should NOT be in the Democratic Party -- he should be part of a leftist party. His BAD JUDGMENT will be his downfall. I am a lifelong Democrat and an adult who is just sick of our Party finally having a chance to win in November, only for it to be hijacked by kids who either were in high school or riding their tricycles or sucking on their pacifiers which 9/11 happened, way too young and inexperienced to have the right judgment about this country.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:18 PM on 03/14/2008
- Dragon5616 I'm a Fan of Dragon5616 16 fans permalink

I'm 56 years old and you are talking out of your ass.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:22 PM on 03/14/2008
- Jeff1958 I'm a Fan of Jeff1958 44 fans permalink
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1. The point is not moot. he stated his opposition to the war when it was extremely unpopular to do so. The fact that he was not in the Senate at the time is irrelevant.

2. America overwhelmingly supported the war because WE WERE LIED TO. I was against the war (in Iraq) before it began, but that's only because I realized that Bush and the neo-cons were a bunch of lying fascists.

3. Rev. Wright is Obama's mentor and father figure? Obama's opposition to the war is because of the Rev.? Obama is far left? He has bad judgement? BS. BS. BS. BS. And BS.

4.You're a Democrat? Ha ha.

5. Kids sucking on pacifiers during 9/11 are now half-way to voting age. Don't blame them for Dubya arrogance and stupidity.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:36 PM on 03/14/2008
- JMorgan I'm a Fan of JMorgan 3 fans permalink

gimamc, I think you make the mistake of thinking that people on the web are all very young and new to politics. Unless you voted for JFK, I outrank you when it comes to oldest lifelong Dem around here.

If your focus is on Dems not losing in November, you're not helping. For all of your browbeating Obama supporters for potentially losing the November election, you could just as easily drop your support of HRC. Obama supporters are comprised of Dems who supported other Presidential candidates before they dropped out of the race. To Obama supporters, HRC is the worst of all possible choices.

As far as I'm concerned, voting for HRC would be like voting for a Republican and I won't do it. I'm having a hard enough time getting behind Obama, whose record is close enough to HRC's and Republicans' to give me pause.

What Obama has in his favor, however, is a groundswelling of support from young voters, first time voters, and returning disaffected voters. All of whom may hold his feet to the fire and force a populist movement to sweep across U.S. politics. If Obama manages to pull it off and win the general election, we'll know in short order if he's a President for all the people. He'll only have a couple of years to pull it off, or else he'll be a one-termer.

If that's not where you're at, maybe you should consider that you're in the wrong party, re-register as a Republican, and take Hillary with you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:02 PM on 03/14/2008

Absolutely correct, Obama did not have access, but still came to the proper conclusion. Hillary on the other hand, had complete access, and chose not to even read the relevant documents before casting her vote. In my opinion, that constitutes dereliction of duty, how do you cast such an important vote without bothering to get the facts? To me, that is far more a dis-qualifier than the vote itself! It shows both laziness and arrogance, and if that was my goal, Bush would beat her!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:24 PM on 03/14/2008
- slow2 I'm a Fan of slow2 10 fans permalink

K6 and tea,

Agree, agree. Good points. There's no way that Hillary can justify that vote. There's no way Hillary can justify not reading the intel memo.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:23 PM on 03/14/2008
- k6007 I'm a Fan of k6007 236 fans permalink
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Neither did I, or the MILLIONS around the world that marched against this illegal war.
Then theres the FACT that Hillary wasn't privvy to it either, not because it wasn't available
to her, noooooooo.­...She simply decided NOT to read the NIE report.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:25 PM on 03/14/2008
- Jeff1958 I'm a Fan of Jeff1958 44 fans permalink
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Poor choice of words superbus. One cannot be absent when one's name is not on the roll. How disingenuous of you to state Obama was absent. That's a patent falsehood.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:25 PM on 03/14/2008
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Ok...Obama was not a US Senator for the war authorization vote. Is that better?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:43 PM on 03/14/2008
- Tankan I'm a Fan of Tankan 3 fans permalink

Who in their right mind wants another warmonger in the White House?

An experienced warmonger guarantees more of the same, death and destruction!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:29 PM on 03/14/2008
- soot I'm a Fan of soot 3 fans permalink

Are we Democrats here, or what? How quickly our standards have fallen. We finally have the opportunity to support a candidate for president who publicly opposed the cluster-fuck in Iraq before it began. Let's do it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:25 PM on 03/14/2008
- rbe1 I'm a Fan of rbe1 permalink

I realize this is not the post in which to question anything Obama supporters think, but oh well, here goes: it's so easy to criticize those who voted for the so-called war amendment (I believe it was actually an amendment authorizing use of force, but again, oh well). However, some of you might try to remember that people were pretty shook up over the attacks on the twin towers and the pentagon, and didn't have the benefit of the intervening years to digest that original event. A lot of what was happening in those days was in the context of these attacks. However, I realize that the whole point of this post is to rewrite history in whatever manner serves to trash the people serving in the Clinton administration, so let's just call this an exercise in futility.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:39 PM on 03/14/2008

Sen. Graham read the intelligence and, based on that, voted against the authorization of force. Sen. Clinton did not read it and voted for the authorization. Which part of that constitutes rewriting history? Oh, no part? That's what I thought.

Don't pretend that because of 9/11 people were all for going into Iraq. As the push for war intensified there were massive protests in the streets. Protests from people who only had the internet and the news to go by and who still realized what a mistake it was. "Saddam has to let the inspectors do their jobs!" And he did. "Okay, pull the inspectors out! We're going in!" What for? The inspectors and Hans Blixt specifically were screaming to the rafters that they wanted more time to do their jobs. It was blantantly contradictory BS oozing from the White House. Anyone paying attention should have seen that.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:16 PM on 03/14/2008
- Fabienne I'm a Fan of Fabienne 31 fans permalink

It's not just Senator Clinton's vote on the war, it is her continued support for the war for several years after it began. In fact, I do not believe she ceased supporting the war until shortly after she began her campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination, as she then realized she needed to do this to win. She is a hawk in every sense of the word and, judging by the statements she has made in the debates, she will continue to be one. Her foreign policy will differ little from the Republicans, which is why it amazes me that anyone could think she had an edge here, since our foreign policy of the recent past, including that relating to Cuba and Latin America, has been totally ineffective.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:20 PM on 03/14/2008
- ginamc I'm a Fan of ginamc 11 fans permalink

You are so right. More than 80% of the Americans wanted some sort of retaliation for 9/11, and Sen. Clinton, representing New York, and ground zero for the attacks did what was right for her constituency. If Obamabots are going to attack Hillary then they should also attack John Kerry, Chris Dodd, Ted Kennedy, Claire McCaskill, on and on and on because THEY ALL voted just like Hillary. Many of these kids are too young and immature, like their fearless leader to have the knowledge, experience and judgment to know what they're talking about.

The ONLY ONE with BAD JUDGMENT is BO -- staying in a racist, separatist, hate-filled Church for over 20 years is the epitome of BAD JUDGMENT.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:25 PM on 03/14/2008
- Dragon5616 I'm a Fan of Dragon5616 16 fans permalink

There were many people in the US who understood the distinction between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. Obama was one of them. Read his entire speech given just before the vote. It was not just his opposition to the war but his clear perception of the consequences, all of which he predicted prior to the fact, that make the speech remarkable. Please, just read it.

http://www.barackobama.com/2002/10/02/remarks_of_illinois_state_sen.php

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:28 PM on 03/14/2008
- RevRick I'm a Fan of RevRick 6 fans permalink
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“I realize this is not the post in which to question anything Obama supporters think, but oh well, here goes: it's so easy to criticize those who voted for the so-called war amendment (I believe it was actually an amendment authorizing use of force, but again, oh well). However, some of you might try to remember that people were pretty shook up over the attacks on the twin towers and the pentagon”

I personally realize this that is why in 2004 I supported Kerry, of course in 2004 there wasn’t a viable alternative that did stand up against the war. Now there is. Had Clinton ran in 2004 I would have been forced to accept that she hadn’t. Now I don’t have to.

However this is all the more why Obama’s opposition to the war was so remakable. Some might say “He was just a State Senator from a liberal district, it was the safe thing to do.” True it might be the safe thing to do if you have no desire to ever rise above the position of State Senator. However anyone planning to run for President in just 6 years would have been insane to take that stance as the politically safe one. Frankly I belive this is why Senator Clinton didn’t bother reading the National Intellegence Estimate, because she didn’t care if Iraq was really a threat, she was planning on running for President in 6 years and took the politically safe stance.

If Clinton somehow becomes the nominee this will cease to be an issue for me since John McCain also voted for the resolution. However as long as I have a viable alternative, I am choosing that alternative.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:48 PM on 03/14/2008

Your COMMANDERI IN CHIEF said there was a threat of a MUSHROOM CLOUD and IRANIUM was being shipped to IRAQ from Africa...i­n the STATE of the UNION. Your Sec. of STATE confirmed it with maps and pictures before the UN General ASSEMBLY. Paperwork confirming
the IRAQI threat was under the noses of all senators..­..what if they only had ONE HOUR to decide..do­es one BELIEVE his or her COMMANDER in CHIEF? Does one believe the SECRETARY of STATE and the ATTORNEY GENERAL? HILLARY did what any LOYAL AMERICAN would have DONE...and I am SICK TO DEATH of her getting the rap for it. WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN done, when it was found that George Bush, and his loyal band of merry warmongers had lied to his CONGRESS, was that he should have been IMPEACHED.­...DON'T BLAME HILLARY
for being a LOYAL AMERICAN and believing her Commander in Chief..if any one in the military had questioned Bush, he was removed from office...a­nd so should BUSH . The only problem was that the weak ass Republicans in Congress, especially the senators, were so afraid of Cheney and Rove they didn't have the courage to vote with the Democrats.­...did you read what Bush said today about Afganistan war?The man is drinking again or he is a delusional IDIOT....q­uit blaming Hillary for believing that the US GOVT is actually capapble of amassing intelligence from a hostile country...­what a failure our system and the repubs are...see Bush dancing last week on the portico while the economy, the war, and everything else goes to hell...we are a JOKE in the eyes of the world..too weak to impeach "the town drunk"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:41 PM on 03/14/2008

I'm sorry but a LOYAL AMERICAN - a SENATOR, no less - should have read the intelligence before voting.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:18 PM on 03/14/2008
- RevRick I'm a Fan of RevRick 6 fans permalink
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“Your COMMANDERI IN CHIEF said there was a threat of a MUSHROOM CLOUD and IRANIUM was being shipped to IRAQ from Africa...i­n the STATE of the UNION.”

The President is Comander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces not the United States. When he says jump to a soldier the correct reply is “how high?”. When he says jump to the US Senate about a pre-emtive war the correct reply is “why?”

“Your Sec. of STATE confirmed it with maps and pictures before the UN General ASSEMBLY.”

Of course this happened after the vote you are defending. However the fact is he confirmed nothing, he tried and failed to convice The UN General Assembly that Iraq was a threat that needed immediate action, when it was obvious the administration wouldn’t be able to convice The UN Security Council they choose not to try.

“Paperwork confirming the IRAQI threat was under the noses of all senators.”

No actully the “paperwork … under the noses” also know as the National Intellegence Estimate that Senator Clinton says she didn’t read, convinced the Senators like Ghram, who did their job and read it, to vote against the resolution.

“does one BELIEVE his or her COMMANDER in CHIEF? Does one believe the SECRETARY of STATE and the ATTORNEY GENERAL”

When the President (see previous point about CiC) the Secretary of Sate, and the rest of the administration contradicts the “paperwork” they provided you with you belive the “paperwork”, also know as the National Itellegence Estimate. Of course you first have to read the paperwork and Senator Clinton choose not to.

“HILLARY did what any LOYAL AMERICAN would have DONE...and I am SICK TO DEATH of her getting the rap for it. WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN done … DON'T BLAME HILLARY for being a LOYAL AMERICAN and believing her Commander in Chief”

“Loyal Americans” don’t blindly follow the President or any other person we hired to run our country for us. The president isnt’t a “Our Leader” this isn’t a dictatorship, The President is our damned employee!!! Any employer that blindly believes everything their employees tell them deserve what they get and that will be screwed. Just as the Owners of this great country have, the American People. What you call being a “Loyal American” I call being asleep at the switch. Durring the run up to Iraq to many of our Co-Owners were asleep and when our employees saw that we were napping some of them like Senator Clinton dozzed off too. The ones that were awake like Senator Ghram and Senator Obama tried to make enough noise to wake more people up, they failed but at least they tried.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:30 PM on 03/14/2008

I remember the Hans Blix? press conference at the U N when he responded to a questioner's inquiry about Secretary of State Powell's photographs of the mobile labs. Hans rolled with laughter and did not even reply in words, he thought the question so absurd. We knew it was all a lie then, but mass hysteria prevailed against all information to the contrary.T­he drummer boys in the mainstream media need to be held accountable for the destruction of Iraq! They need it stamped on their foreheads and their behinds! "If you don't use your head, it's like having two behinds."(­I don't know where my dad came by that experssion, but it seemed very appropriat­e.)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:46 PM on 03/14/2008
- ginamc I'm a Fan of ginamc 11 fans permalink

Grow up.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:19 PM on 03/14/2008

I am a democrat. Yet, I thought that with few exceptions, I believe 13, the democrats in the senate were more concerned about the 2002 November election than about the future of our nature when they voted for the war powers act.

Any thinking individual could predict the outcome of the invasion of Iraq. But let's face it. The average politician knows that the American people love war. The Europeans loved it too for many centuries. It took the two world wars to cure them of that addiction.

I remember my visit to the War Museum in Paris many years ago. It was an epiphany. Looking at all the beautiful uniforms in their exhibits it occurred to me that humans entice their young into the ultimate game--war--with all sorts of beautiful music, uniforms, trinkets, oratory, etc. Of course, this is not an original conclusion. It appears in countless works of fiction.

Washington spoke so clearly against foreign entanglements. This new society was not supposed to be running all over the world seeking opportunities to prove its power. But we failed miserably. And now we use war as an excuse to teach the ways of our peaceful societies to others. Remember Huxley, " War is Peace."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:12 PM on 03/14/2008
- DennyCrane I'm a Fan of DennyCrane 25 fans permalink

It's nice to see someone actually explain what the commander-in-chief test is. Hillary always says she passed it but never says how. Are we supposed to take her word for it? She sounds more and more like George Bush. Bush declared himself a wartime President. Huh? Who are we at war with? You mean the war on terror, that phony excuse you've used to send our soldiers and money to Iraq, take away our civil rights, and spy on us?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:06 PM on 03/14/2008
- Doofus I'm a Fan of Doofus 25 fans permalink
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The vote on 'Force Authorization' bill is an example of poor judgment. It is not obviously the only C-in-C test, the simplest form of which is 'Am I willing & able to take the country to war when it seems like the appropriate thing to do?', or a fancier version '...when it's the RIGHT thing to do'. When it's the first version of the test, Hillary passes. The second version, the more important one, she failed, because it wasn't the RIGHT thing to do. One of the reasons this f*cked up resolution passed in the first place was so damn many Demo Senators wanted to pass this 'C-in-C Test', back when it was going to an easy/short 'Slam Dunk' sort of war. Who would imagine that George Bush could have thought up such a fantastic Con Job?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:45 PM on 03/14/2008
- Grannysue I'm a Fan of Grannysue 132 fans permalink
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Bob Graham is correct, when your talking about sending our American military into battle, you better be dam sure that the reason your "invading" another country, something until Bush had never been done, to a country that did nothing to the U.S. is legitimate. Your a member of Congress and the Senate and you don't even read the NIE report but you vote Yes. She thought she was clever because if she voted for the WAR she could be like her neocon, hawkish friends like McCain. "See I'm Presidential and Patriotic, I voted yes for the war in Iraq", now that we have been there going on six years, with nearly 4000 dead, over 30,000 wounded, most severaly wounded, our economy on the brink of collapse and the country of Iraq completely destroyed, without water, electricity, jobs or hope. This woman thinks she has the hutzpa to be President. Sorry hillary but you and Bill need to leave now. Your time's up go back to NYC and serve out your term then leave public life. Your husband was a good President, just because you happened to be married to him doesn't mean you are him, or as capable or as qualified. You proved that with your vote.
In your mind I guess if your husbands a Judge, that means you qualify to be a "judge". Sorry dear that's not how it works. As far as Florida and Michigian, both candiates signed an agreement they would not campaign in those states nor be on the ballots because the DNC had said they "broke the rules" and their votes would not count. Oh, yes says Clinton, but I changed my mind. Too dam bad.
Florida has had eight years to get their voting mess fixed, since the 2000 debacle and it's still broke.
So why should these people get a do over, because Hillary says. She's starting to remind me of Leona Helmsley!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:39 PM on 03/14/2008
- johnnyjust I'm a Fan of johnnyjust 6 fans permalink

Ah, the old hindsight test. Lest we forget, Obama took any mention of his vote against the war off his website once the war began.

Of course, given what we know now about his good judgment in attending an anti-American, anti-white church for TWENTY years, we don't know what his motivation was in voting against the war.

Maybe he believes, like his pastor, that we "deserved" 911.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:27 PM on 03/14/2008
- slow2 I'm a Fan of slow2 10 fans permalink

johnnyjust,

A quick update on denominations, faith, religion.

Priests and preachers come and go. Creeds and stated beliefs don't change that much. There are plenty who worship at various churches, mosques and synagogues who do not, do not, do not espouse the rhetoric of their priests, mullah, rabbi, preacher.

The United Church of Christ and its beliefs are not founded on ONE PREACHER'S rhetoric.

Chances are if you are Episcopalian or Mormon or Southern Baptist, you'd have certain views about the bible or Book of Mormon or the book of Common Prayer or whether to use a paraphrase of the bible or not.

But most of us in 2008 know for sure that Mitt Romney has only one wife; we know that the Pope is not about to take over the United States; that all women should not be submissive to men, even though some preachers or priests might rant about those topics.

It would be good for you and others to refrain from making broad statements about what Obama's belonging to his church means to him. There's no "maybe he believes" allowed. That's YOUR bigoted projection.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:40 PM on 03/14/2008
- ginamc I'm a Fan of ginamc 11 fans permalink

Your bigoted projection is assuming that we ar the racists -- plain and simple. As a Christian, I also would NEVER attend a church that consistently preaches and espouses hateful, anti-American sentiment. My values align with my Church. And, according to BO, his values gravitated to Wright.

Wake up, get of denial and face REALITY.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:39 PM on 03/14/2008
- fuzzwald I'm a Fan of fuzzwald 8 fans permalink
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Hindsight, schmindsight! Even during the runup to the Iraq invasion, it did not take a genius to see that the American people were being hoodwinked.

It was about the oil then, and it's about the oil now.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:40 PM on 03/14/2008
- ginamc I'm a Fan of ginamc 11 fans permalink

If you're going to hate Hillary for her vote, then you should add John Kerry, Chris Dodd, Claire McCaskill, and all the other members of Congress who endorse Obama because they voted EXACTLY like Hillary. You are either too young or too naive to know what is going on and how Americans felt in 2002. I, too, was against the war in 2002, but that does NOT mean that I am inexperienced or immature to know that most of New York, which was Hillary's constituency, and most of America wanted some sort of retaliation for 9/11. Bigger point is -- how to get out now -- grow up and stop the hatred. Or, perhaps, that is why you are an Obama supporter. There is ABSOLUTELY NO unity, hope or change with the likes of you hateful Obama fanatics.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:36 PM on 03/14/2008
- ChiGuy I'm a Fan of ChiGuy 332 fans permalink
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"Obama took any mention of his vote against the war off his website once the war began."

**********­**********­**********­**********­**********­**********­**********­***

Newsflash, Einstein: He never had an opportunity to vote against the war. He was in the Illinois legislature at the time.

Anti-American, anti-white church? LOL!

Geez, you Clintonistas will make up ANYTHING to get your candidate the nomination, won't you?

1.) Provide us all with evidence of anti-Americanism please.

2.) Trinity has white members. Were you aware of that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:51 PM on 03/14/2008

Newsflash: there are plenty of whites that hate their country as well as blacks. It's a LIBERAL trait, Einstein ....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:21 PM on 03/14/2008
- ginamc I'm a Fan of ginamc 11 fans permalink

yeah, a whole 2 white members who believe in the Farrakhan/Wright philsophy of hate. Clinton has absolutely nothing to do with Obama's BAD JUDGMENT to attend a hate-filled congregation. Face reality and stop rationalizing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:32 PM on 03/14/2008
- MajorKong I'm a Fan of MajorKong 400 fans permalink
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Translation from right-wing speak: "Obama's Pastor" is this week's talking point and must be used in response to any post regarding the Democratic primary regradless of topic.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:28 PM on 03/14/2008
- Superbus I'm a Fan of Superbus 27 fans permalink
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Well, he has been going there for twenty years. I assume you have availed yourself of the videos on YouTube, showing both the preacher and his congregation jumping up and down and clapping at his comments.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:42 PM on 03/14/2008
- VcKrc I'm a Fan of VcKrc 4 fans permalink

Calling this an anti american, anti white church is as wrong as the pastors remarks. You cannot judge an entire congregation by the beliefs or actions of one, even if it is the pastor. I asked a friend of mine that does business in the area and about the church, this was her response:

They are a customer of mine and I have intimate knowledge of their inner-workings and their vision (and have met with various core members of the church's administration). I can state that where they have a commitment to and an affiliation with Africa, they are most certainly American in nature albeit African American. They blantantly (and rightfully so) embrace their African American heritage and do a great deal for Chicago's Southside community. They have churches, schools, day care centers, senior housing, etc. and are deeply rooted in the community. There are at present 9 sites/centers for the church all on Chicago's Southside. They have Ambassadors in Africa performing missionary duties - reaching out to the continent to aid in the betterment of their lifestyles, to help to feed and educate their masses etc. Their not so much about being all about Africa but moreso about appreciating where they came from.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:52 PM on 03/14/2008
- Fabienne I'm a Fan of Fabienne 31 fans permalink

And why is it so strange for an African-American pastor that wants to empower African-Americans to be productive and effective citizens to recognize the great disservice done to them by this country beginning with slavery and continuing with discrimination, oppression and racial prejudice down through the years? There are certainly enough facts to back up the widespread injustices.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:24 PM on 03/14/2008
- ginamc I'm a Fan of ginamc 11 fans permalink

Separatist Church, feel better now.

I can only imagine if Hillary's pastor called out Barack Obama in the same hateful way that Wright did of her. As it is fairy tale and Jesse Jackson were "code" words for racism. Wake up, children and face reality. As your fearless leader said a few days ago in Mississippi and earlier in S. Carolina, "...you've been hoodwinked, bamboozled­..."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:28 PM on 03/14/2008

Why aren't more people commenting on the fact that we can afford TRILLIONS (literally) in a doomed attempt to promote democracy in Iraq, but 25 million for a democratic (and Democratic) primary in Florida is unthinkably expensive.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:17 PM on 03/14/2008
- Gatormouth I'm a Fan of Gatormouth 22 fans permalink
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Qualifications for commander in chief? Lets see, would that be good at planning, Be willing to seek alternatives to armed force, be able to forge alliances, see to the preparation of the services, the quality of training, the assurance of adequate supply, the care of the wounded, the ability to make sound strategic decisions, ...and lots more. The only recent president I can think of that was good enough to do all that was Eisenhower. But he had LOTS of experience. I don't think Commander in Chief means a field grade officer is required for the job.

In our Constitution the Commander in Chief is a elected civilian high official - the President - not some suited up tin pot dictator who seizes control. Judgment, the willingness to to listen to advisers and the ability to delegate authority to professional military leaders and then to listen to their recommendations before making decisions is critical. Also, providing the resources necessary to maintain the service forces, the ability to forge alliances, the willingness to seek political alternatives to armed force before making a decision turning to that as a last resort ... these all are hallmarks, I would think, of a successful commander in chief. The present occupant of the post has obviously failed miserably in these regards. I think that Commander in Chief also calls for a very good tactful, unflappable and patient manager. I think a good start in vetting the next C in C is to see how well the candidates run their own organizations to guess how well they might evolve into the role.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:15 PM on 03/14/2008

Yesterday, the study by the Bush Adminstration of whether or not Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11 came out, interestingly enough after 600,000 documents, interrogations, and FBI, CIA records it was determined that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 and al-Gaeda. But no one in the media brought it up.

How sad, 4,000 soldiers dead for a lie and bad judgement, America's economy in shambles, wasted money on Iraq and America disgraced in the world.

Obama '08

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:01 PM on 03/14/2008
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The media's "excuse" for not bringing it up has been neatly provided by the Pentagon -- the report won't be released or even e-mailed, just snail-mailed to whomever requests it. As soon as somebody types up the 600 pages, we'll have it. Tricky, eh? With our dough, too.

But you're right, and it's ridiculous no one's reporting "Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 and al-Gaeda." After all, it's so short and sweet; wouldn't take much time to say.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:05 PM on 03/14/2008
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