Electric Car Makers Facing Numerous Production Hurdles

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Los Angeles Times   |  Ken Bensinger   |   April 5, 2008 04:24 PM


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On an overcast Friday in February, about 100 people gathered behind Tesla Motors Inc. headquarters, awaiting the future of transportation. A truck pulled up with a trailer, which disgorged a sleek black electric sports car that promises to change the world as much as the Model T did a century ago.

The crowd toasted with champagne as Elon Musk, Tesla's chairman, climbed a staircase and made a triumphant speech. "This is the culmination of an enormous amount of work," he said.

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We had oil men selected as our deciders and the oil companies decided for US all, that

electric cars were not wanted. We can only HOPE that Obama can bring real CHANGE!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:49 PM on 04/07/2008

GM completed an Electric car that was working fine 5 years ago. Once it succeed, they refused to put it into production, cut up the cars and sold the patient they purchased to Chevron who then split it up and sol it to three other companies. The Auto industries in this country is taking themselves out of the car industry by expecting handouts.

It not hard to do because its already been done

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:30 AM on 04/07/2008

A couple weeks ago when the California Air Resources Board (CARB) had a meeting, EV enthusiasts had a rally outside the meeting. A woman got up and started talking about the RAV4-EV she got six years ago. She has been drving this electric vehicle for the last 6 years, covered 60,000 miles, and IN SIX YEARS SHE HAS NOT BOUGHT A DROP OF GASOLINE!

Just imagine that: six years of driving around and never, ever, needing to stop at a gas station and handing over your hard earned cash for gasoline. Exxon made 40 billion dollars last year, but with an electric car you don't have to give them a dime. Think about that the next time you pay a wallet load of cash to buy a tank gasoline.

You all can argue about it all you want, but the fact is electric cars are back, and this time they are here to stay.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:16 AM on 04/07/2008

I suspect that hydrogen fuel cell cars and E95 filling stations exist only in the minds of these CARB commissioners ... them and a few insane people working at the LA Times.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:51 AM on 04/07/2008

My favorite line was this, "Despite increasing competition from rival technologies such as ethanol and hydrogen fuel cells"

The LA Times says this and they aren't joking!

I'm sorry did I somehow miss the ethanol station sprouting on every corner?

I must have missed the showrooms brimming with brand new hydrogen fuel cell cars as well. In fact I must have missed every single one of them that were sold to consumers. Maybe that's because there have been a grand total of 0 sold to any consumer and a grand total of 0 scheduled to be sold. If you live in certain neighborhoods in certain portions of southern California, Honda will lease you one, if you qualify and promise to give it back in 3 years ... or so they say. They've yet to do it. Maybe that's because they cost at least a cool million bucks each to build.

Suddenly a Tesla for $100,000 sounds really cheap! Damn if it weren't for the competition, I'm sure they could sell them for at least $125,000!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:34 PM on 04/06/2008

Detroit should design a car that would run on bullshit, the republican party is a huge source and could supply enough for all the consumer needs...........

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:09 PM on 04/06/2008

You wouldn't even need to drill the Republicans.

Just tap Al Gore. There's enough renewable energy in that sack, that we could keep the GOP pristine.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:54 PM on 04/06/2008

It seems that recently most automotive innovations are coming from overseas. The American corporations keep saying that they can't do something, until the foreigners show that they can do it, and do it well.

Electric vehicles? In the 1940s, Railway Express had thousands of all electric delivery vehicles in Manhattan. No regenerative braking, no computers, no lithium-ion batteries, just the will to do something that made sense at the time. After the war, they gradually stopped being used. Now that the atmosphere is getting fowled and the oil is getting expensive, it may be time to bring all-electrics back again. Unfortuneately, we will probably have to wait until the Asians or the Europeans make them for us.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:30 AM on 04/06/2008

If the batteries are sufficiently advanced, building the cars shouldn't be a problem. There are going to be some hucksters and phonies, but they will be exposed soon enough.
Go hippies go, I'm pulling for ya.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:00 PM on 04/05/2008

willo --

The car comapnies already have a working battery to power electric vehicles -- they bought the patent years ago so it could be shelved, idiot.

An all-electric vehicle means fewer moving parts. Fewer moving parts means longer life. Longer life means there's little need to replace parts or even the vehicle, as often as in the case of an internal-combustion machine. Demand for fewer parts and/or vehicles means less profits. Less profits means . . . you get the drift -- it's about the money, stupid.

It has nothing to do with science or engineering.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:02 AM on 04/06/2008

"they bought the patent years ago so it could be shelved, idiot."

Oh yes, corporations do that sort of thing ALL the time. Paying money for things they have no intention of using. Can't you just here THAT suggestion being brought up at the board meetings?

"Mr. Chairman, we've found a battery that will make electric cars efficient and affordable. We propose spending seven million dollars purchasing this patent, to keep this technology out of the hands of American public."

I honestly don't know where some of you get your wild ideas.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:11 PM on 04/06/2008
    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:27 PM on 04/07/2008

It's not exactly a wild idea, it's a documented fact.

Yes, coroporations act in their own best interest. Crazy idea, I know, but let's say you're an oil company that sees a technology on the horizon that could put you out of business. The patent will cost you a few million bucks, you make a few billion bucks a year. What do you do?

Maybe try out one of your wild ideas!

It's not like they don't have a history of success in the wild idea department. Do a little internet digging on the LA's now defunct trolly system and Standard Oil. Then try to get somewhere on an LA freeway during rush-hour (OK rush-day for us).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:26 PM on 04/06/2008

Why does this surprise anyone?

The truth is, if electric cars were viable, they'd be on the market already.

My favorite part of the article: "Last week, California's top air regulator voted to reduce the number of all-electric vehicles it would require large automakers to market in the state in coming years. "

Looks like California's plan to be the first State to implement Kyoto is going off the tracks already. We've been telling you hippies for YEARS, that it was impossible to comply with Kyoto, I guess you're starting to find out we were right all along

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:50 PM on 04/05/2008

What's not viable is turbocharged eight cylinder land yachts racing about in an attempt to emit enough carbon dioxide to end life on this planet. Electric cars are not cheap or easy but they are infinitely more viable than the alternatives.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:40 PM on 04/06/2008

"What's not viable is turbocharged eight cylinder land yachts racing about in an attempt to emit enough carbon dioxide to end life on this planet."

Nonsense.

What's not viable is people like yourself, claiming to be on the side of SCIENCE making unscientific remarks like that.

I've never seen anybody credible ever claim that it is possible for humans to "emit enough carbon dioxide to end life on this planet."

You made that up.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:04 PM on 04/06/2008

It's called the Clathrate Gun Hyprotesis, fella. Whenever all the methane clathrate have been released in the past they refer to the events as extinctions.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:30 PM on 04/07/2008

"The truth is, if electric cars were viable, they'd be on the market already."

So let me get this straight... Not only is the market infallible, with its invisible hand and such, but it is so prescient that every viable product that will ever exist is already on the market?

Sorry folks, no more viable products. The market says we're happy with the choices we already have. The market says that we'll keep buying gasoline cars and sending our kids to get blown up escorting fuel convoys in the foreign territories we're occupying in an effort to secure our oil supply. The market says that this is the best energy policy we will ever have.

The average retail price of a gallon of gasoline in the U.S. has increased from $1.15 in 1999 to $3.30 today. That's almost triple in less than a decade. Gas may hit $4 this year, and it's already up to $3.79 where I live. It obviously takes time for a heavy industrial sector like the automotive industry to respond to changes, but they will respond eventually.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:50 PM on 04/05/2008

"every viable product that will ever exist is already on the market?"

Not at all. But the elecrtric car is something that the world's greatest minds have been working on, for over a hundred years, and it still isn't as clean, cheap, quick, or convenient, as the internal combustion engine.

Someday, someone might invent something better. But I don't expect it in either of our lifetimes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:01 AM on 04/06/2008

So pollution makes you happy Timmy? Some people are easily entertained.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:59 PM on 04/05/2008

It's not that Kyoto is untenable at all. It's that electric cars that plug in to wall sockets as now constituted may actually put MORE carbon into the atmosphere since most of our electricity comes from coal.

As soon as we shift to carbon sequestered coal fired plants, nuclear, wind, solar, etc, then fully electric cars may be truly "environmentally friendly." As of now, they just rob Peter to pay Paul, with the onyl added benefit of not running on expensive, imported oil.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:39 PM on 04/05/2008

Not true... A compact EV like the Tesla Roadster gets over 2 km/MJ from the grid, compared to a Toyota Prius that gets less than 0.7 km/MJ from the pump. The huge vehicular efficiency advantage of the polyphase induction motor over the internal combustion engine dwarfs the loss of source efficiency -- about 50% for electricity from natural gas compared to about 80% for gasoline.

The bottom line is that an EV running on electricity from natural gas causes less than HALF the carbon emissions per mile as the Prius. The grid mix in California is 60% hydrocarbon, so an EV charged in CA causes less than a THIRD the carbon emissions of the Prius. Even if an EV were running on electricity generated exclusively from lump coal, it would still reduce carbon emissions over the Prius by about a third.

The major problem with EVs is grid capacity. We'll almost certainly need some sort of legislation or public awareness campaign that encourages EV owners to plug in after dark. Otherwise we'll have a huge peak in the evenings when people are running their AC, lights, and appliances while charging their car. If everybody plugs in right before bedtime, the grid may be able to take it without major upgrades. However, we really should be investing in our infrastructure.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:00 PM on 04/05/2008

The only problem is, as soon as we start talking about putting more energy into the grid, politics as usual goes right to energy as usual-- namely, coal for most of the country.

If CA doesn't increase their electrical capacity and has to buy more energy from TX (where I live) where we now have more than a dozen coal-fired plants in various stages of being built. Sure, they're implementing some wind and solar, but not nearly fast enough to outpace coal.

A nationwide moratorium of coal-fired plants would have to precede any mass implementation of electric cars, as would deployment of "smart meters" which would automatically turn on your car's charging station remotely while you're asleep in bed as soon as the grid cools down at night.

Of course, this is all just "best practices," mind you-- environmentalism is often incrementalism, but our problems facing us now have to be solved by drastic action because incremental may be too late.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:50 AM on 04/10/2008

You're ignoring a reality of electricity generation: it is highly inefficient.

Because of transmission losses, you need to put three watts of energy into the grid, for every watt you remove.

Hence, the EV and Prius are a stalemate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:16 PM on 04/05/2008

:As soon as we shift to carbon sequestered coal fired plants"

Not going to happen. Plans to build the first demonstration plant in Illinois have been scrapped already. The DOE found out how little power was going to be produced at such a cost, they decided it was ridiculous.

If it's too expensive for a pork hog like the DOE, it will never be commercially feasible

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:30 PM on 04/05/2008

I still need a fossil fueled V8 thank you

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:02 PM on 04/05/2008

Why, electric cars have far more torque. They can twist a drive shaft in half.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:56 AM on 04/06/2008
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