Clinton Camp To Step Up Efforts To Count Michigan, Florida

The NY Time's Adam Nagourney writes about Hillary Clinton's dwindling chances and hopes for a final rescue after Tuesday night's vote tallies in North Carolina and Indiana.

Nagourney points out that the Clinton camp will ratchet up it's already aggressive attempts to have the results for Florida and Michigan - states both candidates didn't campaign in, but Clinton "won" - to be counted. HuffPost's Tom Edsall wrote Sunday about how the Clinton camp planned to carry out the "nuclear option" to get the Michigan and Florida votes counted.

With few states left, she and her aides said they would step up their efforts to count the disputed results in Florida and Michigan, where the states held contests in defiance of Democratic Party rules. If Mrs. Clinton can win the battle to have the delegations from those two states seated at the conventions on the basis of the vote there, she could greatly reduce Mr. Obama's lead in pledged delegates.

But neither candidate actively campaigned in Florida or Michigan, and Mr. Obama did not appear on the Michigan ballot.

Still, in a sign of where the Clinton campaign is going, her aides are asserting that the winner will need 2,209 delegates, not 2,025. That higher number reflects the full inclusion of Florida and Michigan, which held their primaries before the date permitted by the Democratic Party.

Comments

[karela]

Let's hope that the story is true that Mrs. Clinton will be gone by June 15, but let's not count on it. As this story points out, Mrs. Clinton bears watching and I'm sure that Obama and his team will not be taking anything for granted. Some of the pundits this morning were saying that Obama could make the grand gesture and let her have her way about Florida because it wouldn't do him enough harm for her to win. I say, not unless she signs a contract in blood that says she's out of the race and announces it to the world. She has a plan. Rachel Maddow was right last night and I can feel it. She may send a message through an aide, but everything out of her own mouth says she's still in it to win it. Anything through aides can be denied. No easy concessions. There will have to be compromises on both sides that reflect some consequences for breaking the rules. I'm from MI and I still think that's right.

[Wuzup45]

Hey, I am from Florida and I voted. I want my vote and others to count. Let's not lose track of the fact that the state is controlled by Republicans right now, house, senate and governor. After the Al Gore hanging chad thing and the Kerry thing - the state invested in touch screen ballot machines. They had NO PAPER TRAIL AT ALL and it would be easy to change a number in the main computer. There were even negative votes in some cases with machines counting backwards. Mark Foley, democrat, has been fighting for a decade to get optical scanners so that all Floridians would have a paper trail and it would keep the vote honest. The Republicans bundled the machines with paper trail purchase money with the change in the democratic election date. This is just another machination of the Republican parties attempt to alienate voters in Fl. against the Democrats and stupid, Howard Dean, and others fell for it. Other states changed their dates and didn't have any problems, why Fl.? I wrote Dean about it and got no answer, just more letters asking for money. In my letter to him I told him it would be a cold day in "****" before he got another penny from me and I was going to change to independent after 45 years as a Democrat. At this point I don't care who wins the nomination, but I still trust Hillary to run the country more than Barack.

[Senella]

Bye! Bye!

Also from Florida

Obama/08

[thirteen13]

You should move to New York and vote for her third senate term. She will need every vote she can get. She will never get my vote again.

[DLSprague]

Lets just change the rules after I lose.

[provgrays]

Even if Florida and Michigan are counted, it won't help Hillary in the delegate race. It's obnoxious that they are calling this strategy "The Nuclear Option". Hillary doesn't care about the party or the country. Otherwise, she would bow out gracefully and allow the party to heal before taking on the lastest Neocon idiot in the General Election.

[jeffp26]

These Clinton people live in a world that we think of as the twilight zone. Can they be that delusional, or are they just kidding us?

[OhReallySheSaid]

I guess the Dems who gave Hillary a victory in California, New Jersey, New York, Pennsyvannia, Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Florida, and Texas are delusional too Jeffyyy26?

Maybe you're in a party a nutcases.

[wellinformed08]

ummm... I live in Texas and Texas belongs to Obama after every vote counted- caucuses where I stood in line til 2 am. She doesn't want to talk about that in her quest to become the President of the United BIG States of America. She is a snake and will do anything to win. She doesn't even believe that we have any common sense and has changed her message more than Bill has changed bed sheets. She doesn't even know if she got shot at or not...even after watching the video tape of people hugging her and giving her flowers. She is a joke.

[Dewtrell]

I live in California and I voted for Obama - and my state Dem party did not break the rules! You people should have made your voices heard when your state Dem party broke the rules and it was agreed upon by ALL the candidates, including Hillary Clinton - the woman is on TAPE, that they wouldn' t count.

[provgrays]

Maybe Obama has more delegates and more votes.

[teacupsnpots]

All you commentators to this blog are forgetting one thing - the most important thing: McCain will beat Obama easily (yes, we DO KNOW that) and Hillary is the only chance here.

On November 5, I hope you remember this rather than gloat in the ability to head off the only possible winner. And then the recriminations will fly.

So, folks, lots of luck, the USA will not be a pleasant place to live after Nov 4, trust me. The wealthy Obama-ites and Hollywood stars can book if they have to, but ordinary folks cannot.

Very smart, yes, very smart.

[sophistwatch]

Thanks man. I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. Jimmy Carter or Michael Dukakis could beat McCain. Obama is going to crush him out. I don't like negative politics, but after this BS with Wright and Ayres, I am looking forward to the humdingers that are in McCain's closet. The base of his own party has turned their back on him. This is your champion warrior? McCain in the GE reminds me of the Black Knight in Monte Python's The Holy Grail.

[bigironal25]

I can not wait for any and all debates between Grampa McCrazy and Barack Obama! By the time Obama gets done with McBush it'll look like the debate took place on a slaughter house killing floor. Sorry Gramps!

[OhReallySheSaid]

If Howard Dean and the DNC just follow the rules he has written (which is something of an anathema to the DNC these days), this Florida/Michigan fiasco can be settled in minutes.

Democratic National Committee's Delegate Selection Rules, Rule 20.C.1.a.:

Violation of timing: In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party provides or permits a meeting, caucus, convention or primary which constitutes the first determining stage in the presidential nominating process to be held prior to or after the dates for the state as provided in Rule 11 of these rules, or in the event a state holds such a meeting, caucus, convention or primary prior to or after such dates, the number of pledged delegates elected in each category allocated to the state pursuant to the Call for the National Convention shall be reduced by fifty (50%) percent, and the number of alternates shall also be reduced by fifty (50%) percent. In addition, none of the members of the Democratic National Committee and no other unpledged delegate allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A. from that state shall be permitted to vote as members of the state's delegation. In determining the actual number of delegates or alternates by which the state's delegation is to be reduced, any fraction below .5 shall be rounded down to the nearest whole number, and any fraction of .5 or greater shall be rounded up to the next nearest whole number.

[OhReallySheSaid]

Just the facts: The reality is the two largest states Obama has won is Wisconsin and Illinois.

And Hillary?...............Hhhhhhmmmmmmm.........oh, that's right, we all can't stand her (sic). That's why she has won all the big states and the states that are essential for victory.

[bigironal25]

Texas is a BIG,BIG state ! Did Hillary win Texas?Well, did she?

[Angelus2007]

I don't think McCain will definately win, but I do think it will be easier for McCain against Obama. Obama has been winning on votes that are the base of the democratic party. The people who have voted for Obama will vote heavily for any democrat. But the white middle class voters, the Reagan Democrats he took in the 80's that Clinton took back in the 90's and voted for Bush in this century are the swing. They aren't cut and dry democrats or republicans. They walk on both sides of the line. And McCain for whatever reason has always been good at getting those votes and Obama has had a hard time. There is a lot of time between now and November and many things can happen. But if these people are voting for Clinton because they don't like Obama, he will be in trouble in November.

Blacks, and educated liberals are the base of the party. I live just outside Pittsburgh, and many people said they are voting for McCain if Obama wins, since they like him better, but will vote for Hillary if she wins. There are certain states the democrats will win, and some the republicans will win, and states like Ohio and Florida will be back in play, and McCain is better suited than Obama right now to take those states.

[wellinformed08]

Allow me to enlighten you. I am black. Black people make up a TOTAL of 12% of the population. Of that #, 3% are or have been incarerated and have been stripped of voting rights. Another 3% are under the age of 18 and can't vote. So we are really dealing with about 6% of the population that are black and ELIGIBLE to vote. Of the remaining %, all black people do not vote, are not democrats and do not support Obama. The media fails to relay that black people have been Obama's biggest critics. Some of the more influential "black leaders" don't want him to win so they can remain relevant (in my opinion). I'm just so sick of people making this about race. Black people have been flocking to the Clintons in record numbers tooand nobody said anything. it is just a crime when there is black on black voting I guess. Whatever!

Maybe Obama is changing politics. Maybe he is inspiring the masses. Everybody is trying to make him a gimmick but America hasn't seen this in 40 years. Obama may be the next big thing. I'm open to it because McCain sure as hell is not!

[DSully]

Meanwhile, the rest of the county, looking from the outside in, can't believe the people in PN went so heavily for Hillary after she was caught lying about Bosnia and NAFTA.

[bratzilla]

Like what planet do you live on ? That is why Rush Limbaugh was trying to get Hillary to win, because Mc Cain could beat her. He wanted to run against Hillary not Obama. Doesnt that tell you anything? Smell the Coffee

[mickeyrat]

Think for once. If Republians really wanted to run against Hillary, would they blather it from the rooftops?

Obamabots are just idiots.

[SaulGood]

is anyone in fl and mi uncomfortable with this headline? lol

[robin50]

Hil seems to endorse a scorched earth policy. That or she has the mentality of a little brat "If you don't let me win, nobody gets to play". Just like a brat that is seriously in need of something stronger than a "time out". Is there still wood sheds in this country?

[indiethinker]

If the nuclear option doesn't work, she'll strap on some explosives & try the suicide bomber option. Political parties can be very forgiving of bad behavior in primaries, but there's a limit to that forgiveness & Hillary Clinton is right at the brink of that precipice. If she finishes her campaign with dignity & forgoes the nastiness & last gasp desperation tactics, she will be welcomed back into the good graces of her peers. Tough, political fighters are respected, but hysterical, foaming at the mouth, rabid dogs who don't know when to quit just have to be put out of their misery for the good of the community...

[SethBLiNK]

Do the math. Even with Florida and Michigan she doesn't win. As long as she stays in, the dems can't reconcile with those two states without taking sides. As soon as she steps down, the healing can begin.

[NDNlady]

Exactly. With all her talk of standing up for the voters of FL and MI, she is the one who is preventing an equitable solution. Bless her heart. She really has gone out there where the buses don't run.

[marijam]

The Democratic party is manipulating the process in order to give the nomination to their choice Obama. In the process, they are disenfranchising millions of voters who acted in good faith when they voted for Hillary. Ironic as can be, given the circumstances of the 2000 election.

[zippywpinhead]

Democratic Senator Carl Levin led the fight in Mi to move the primary date and Democratic Governor Jennifer Granholm signed the bill. Both the house and senate versions of the Fl bill were introduced by Dems and the Dems voted unanimously in one case and near unanimously (only 2 no votes) in the other in favor of the bill. there are also multitudes of video and print documentations of local Dems arrogantly thumbing their noses at the DNC, bragging about how they didn't care about any threatened sanctions b/c they didn't think that the DNC had the cojones to actually impose them. They simply believed, given that at that time a Hillary coronation was the conventional wisdom, that it was in their best interest to defy the national party and get the increased exposure and money by jumping to the front of the line. The fact is, there is a clause in the DNC rules that would have exonerated both of the Democratic parties- all they had to do was show a 'good faith' effort to avoid breaking the rules (like going on record by voting against the bill) and the DNC would've been more than happy to avoid this whole fiasco by not imposing such harsh measures. This whole spin that the big bad Republicans, the DNC or Barak Obama forced the two state's Democratic reps into anything is nothing but spin and revisionism

[Valkyrie]

You mean when they voted for Hillary because she was the only candidate on the ballot because she didn't uphold her pledge to not participate in any of the states even though she clearly did and she clearly is now, right?

That's what you mean with your slightly mis-informed statement, right? Repeat after me. SHE AGREED TO NOT PARTICIPATE. By even suggesting the nuclear option, guess what? SHE'S PARTICIPATING NOW.

And yeah, I yelled. It seems like it's the only way to get through. If Hillary can't keep that one simple promise, how can we expect her to keep any promise?

And why am I even talking about this with you? It's a waste of time because Hillary's done! On to McCain.

[khalibrrr]

what about all the people who didn't vote because they knew their vote would not be counted? For some reason these people always seem to get overlooked when it comes time to talk about seating the delegates.

[stateMachine]

Michigan's governor tried to manipulate the process to give the nomination to Hillary. Florida's state senate tried to manipulate the process to give Florida to the Republicans.

Don't blame this on the dems

[Justtellthetruth]

the Nuclear option. Thats funny.

It's more like the really imposingly large stink bomb option now. It's annoying, It's distracting, You'd rather it didn't happen, but it won't impede Obama AT ALL at this point. Thats why Hillary is finished.

Any fair allocation of the delegates, even any unfair allocation of the delegates, would still leave Obama with an insurmountable lead. No realistic margin of victory in even ALL of the upcoming races, if she could even afford to run all the races, would give Hillary the lead in either popular or delagate votes, and under these circumstances, The remaining Supers would NEVER go against the overwhelming majority of voters and pledged delegates.

All she can do now is try to negotiate a few things, Like getting someone she would like on the ticket (never her) and maybe get her debts paid off by the Obama campaign so she wont get beaten AND financially creamed.

Hillary has NO nukes in her arsenal at this point. Only stink bombs.

[marc1antony]

your very last line says it all!!!! STINK BOMB!!!

[BigBen]

How would Barack Obama appeal to low income white voters over John McCain?Why would Obama appeal to Mexican voters over McCain?How would Obama appeal to anti abortion Catholic voters over McCain?How would Obama appeal to the heart of the DemocraticParty which is no longer left wing liberal with a black base which effectively stabbed Bill Clinton their hero in the back over John McCain?When you can answer that you have the formula to win in November.

[Justtellthetruth]

because John McCain is a doddering old codger who literally can not even keep our real and faux enemies straight anymore. He has a pathological temper which has earned him a TERRIBLE reputation with insiders, and which will come out in the election.

He is really not supported by the hard right of the party, and this country, including ALL of the people that you mentioned are heart sick at the prospect of sacrificing their kids for causes that are based on lies and that they dont believe in.

If you look at the numbers of voters coming out for the Dem's as opposed to to Reps, you see that the excitement for the Dems is HUGE,and it ain't for Hillary. Thats why shes losing. Shes McCain in a pantsuit. Same on the war, same on corruption, same on pandering, ect.

The biggest, I repeat, THE BIGGEST issue we face is getting out of the war, staying out of Iran, and Forcing Israel to do the right thing and relinquish all settlements and the occupation.

That will free up the cash and resources to accomplish just about everything we need to do.

[khalibrrr]

Bill Clinton does not "own" the Black vote and the last time i checked Bill Clinton was not running for President. Bill Clinton is not the Hero of Black America. Your queries are obviously rhetorical, so a response would be pointless, as we all can see you've already made up your mind. I prefer to have a wait and see attitude about the whole thing. You sound really bitter. Like all painful things, this too shall pass.

[Dewtrell]

Oh, you think Mexicans are going to vote for McCain? HA!
Most Catholics in THIS country are pro-choice.

Tell me, how is Hillary going to get the black vote? Without us, she'd loose.

[BeReasonable1]

The people of Florida and Michigan should be allowed to vote. It was wrong of both candidates to agree and the DNC to punish the people of these states because they changed the voting date. What does they say about our Democracy? We should never tell anyone that their vote won't be counted. I am especially surprised by Obama supporters who claim they want change in Washington. This I hope is not the kind of change you were thinking about. I know his supporters are a little over the top with him winning, but do you honestly want to win by preventing the voices of your fellow Americans to be heard?

[steamboat]

WELL SAID ! ......there are millions of people in Florida and Michigan. AMERICAN citizens who have worked and paid taxes to this country, who have FOUGHT for this country, and who have contributed their time, life, and talents to this country.......Is this what the 'new left' and their 'change' is about? Only include people if there like us.....No, Florida and Michigan also count.

[zippywpinhead]

your implication that this is Obama's decision is utter nonsense- it's the fault of your state reps. The sooner you quit deluding yourself by trying to blame everybody and anybody but the people actually responsible, the sooner you can get around to holding them responsible by voting them out of office next state election.

[robin50]

Then Michigan and Florida should have followd the rules. But noooooooooo they both had to try to be in the early primary. We have a way too long campaign and election cycle now. Jeez, if everyone gets on this bs bandwagon of being "first" we will start having primarys before the inaugeration celebrations are over. Can you image having to put up with this foolishness any longer than what it is now?

[SaulGood]

we did vote.

[Myshkin57]

If they can get the money together for a legitimate re-vote, then fine. But it wasn't going to happen. There were zero dollars at the ready, despite what Carville says.

[zippywpinhead]

they were allowed to vote, but because they didn't follow the rules their votes don't count. Explain what disenfranchising the voters in the other 48 states by rewarding rule breaking says about our democracy...

[SaulGood]

{{high five}}

besides, something tells me if fl and mi are seated - there is nothing to keep this from happening in four years.

[HotheadPaisen]

Coming from a Floridian, I can tell you that many tens of thousands DID NOT vote because we were told that it would not count, so why bother. Myself, I did vote, but I was one of many more thousands who voted only to try to thwart a stupid amendment.
Again, every voter in the state was told "Your vote will not count. Period." SO in what world is it fair to count the votes that were cast under those conditions.
I'm fairly passionate about my choice, I want my vote to count, but the only way it would be fair is to do the whole thing over- and you know that's not going to happen.

[egal]

Umm, nobody's saying it would be bad to allow a revote--it simply has been denied because of its fiscal impossibility.

The reason we don't want the standing illegal (in Michigan's case, recently found unconstitutional) election votes to count is mainly because they are ILLEGAL, and partly because Clinton's was the only name on the ballot due to her refusing to do as she had promised and remove her name and not advertise in those states.

We may not like the law, but it was in place at the time those states took their actions (and had practical reasons for existing that you apparently haven't bothered to learn), and they understood the consequences of their hubris. So counting their votes would be illegal, patently unfair, and (imo) worse, non-representative of the people who actually voted under circumstances that were essentially an unconstitutional monopoly, let alone of those people who did not vote because their candidates weren't available and their delegates weren't going to be counted anyway.

[sophistwatch]

What is it lately with Hillary and all things nuclear? She wants to nuke Iran if they attack Israel. Now she wants to nuke her own party! What happened to the agreement that all the Dem candidates signed with the DNC that disallows the results in FL and MI? Old sniper fire is getting her butt kicked and so she wants to back out of her agreement. If she wasn't getting help from Limbaugh's Operation Chaos and the MSM pounding the Wright issue non stop she would have been out already. So now it's time to go nuclear on her own party because she is not happy with an agreement that has become inconvenient to keep. Doesn't this tell you anything about her character? She has every right to stay in the race and drag this out. But winning the Presidency with a nuclear option, to say nothing of her breach of contract, is not the best way to win friends and influence people.

[Valkyrie]

That's a pretty damned good point. I'm going to think about it while I go nuke the baked potato in the microwave.

[sophistwatch]

Just give that potato to Hillary - She nukes everything.

[Schnitzel]

At this point it doesn't matter. The nuclear option still won't get them caught up on delegates. This is over.

[steamboat]

I think you are right. Still the good people of Florida and Michigan should also count.

[SaulGood]

no, we shouldn't. unfortunately we have to pay the price of the decisions our state's party leaders made.

[LouisPWu]

Who wants a PRESIDENT who cannot be trusted? Didn't we just have 8 years of that? And aren't we all a lot better off than we were 8 years ago? Hillary is a serial LIAR and CHEAT. Don't let her MOVE THE GOALPOSTS after the game has been played.

[balkan-2]

By the way, who is going to pay for after all the money that HC borrowed to herself - after is all gone ?