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Young Evangelicals Abandoning GOP Over Iraq, Economy

Seattle Times   |   May 11, 2008 10:37 AM

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Michael Dudley is the son of a preacher man.

He's a born-again Christian with two family members in the military. He grew up in the Bible Belt, where almost everyone he knew was Republican. But this fall, he's breaking a handful of stereotypes: He plans to vote for Democrat Barack Obama.

"I think a lot of Christians are having trouble getting behind everything the Republicans stand for," said Dudley, 20, a sophomore at Seattle Pacific University.

Dudley's disenchantment with the GOP isn't unique among young, devoutly Christian voters. According to a September 2007 survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, 15 percent of white evangelicals between 18 and 29, a group traditionally a shoo-in for the GOP, say they no longer identify with the Republican Party. Older evangelicals are also questioning their traditional allegiance, but not at the same rate.

Read the whole story here.


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collapse ibsteve2u See Profile I'm a Fan of ibsteve2u

Methinks all three of the "religions of the Book" - Islam, Judaism, and Christianity - are lost; they all insist that no one should worship false idols, but each worships buildings, walls, and pieces of land.

The pagans of old endowed trees and lakes with "sprites" and "imps", even as these religions endow tombs, rocks, and walls with "the Holy Spirit" and contend that beseeching their "all-knowing, all-seeing" God in a particular place ensures a higher likelihood of success!

Because of this taint of paganism, for two millennia all three have demanded that humans sacrifice themselves for places they name as "sacred", as if blood would consecrate those false idols.

That is why - as some of our evangelicals are realizing - the members of all three religions are so easily manipulated into becoming the tools of that unacknowledged but pervasive fourth religion: Those who truly worship at the altar of Mammon.

People like Osama Bin Laden and al Qaeda or Cheney, Bush and PNAC are just modern day manifestations of the same evil that was prevalent during the medieval era: People whose lust for power and/or money allows them to send from tens of thousands to millions of humans to their deaths with religious demands and perverted arguments of moral imperatives.

I often think that is why the Right is always agitating to put more religion into our government and our educational system: It must take years of indoctrination to override common sense and subdue the will to live.

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 10:57 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse myersms See Profile I'm a Fan of myersms

If a theocracy is what you religious people want,move to the middle East,this country was founded on the basis of freedom of religion and freedom from religion,so if religious people want to put their faith front and center in the world of politics and vote supposedly based on their faith its time to get out.I don't mind people practicing their religious faith as long as it does'nt effect me.The problem is that in the last 8 years or so since the republican party high-jacked the religious right,my life as well as millions of other Americans has changed in a dramatic way, and not for the better,and it appears that the vast majority are still blind to the fact of what the crooks have and are doing to this country.If religion causes a person,or population to quit thinking rationally and logically for oneself,then I believe that makes the organization or group more of a cult.Very dangerous.Look at what religion has done for the Middle East?????

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 07:03 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse toby25 See Profile I'm a Fan of toby25

The liberal left has hijacked the democratic party and the religious right has hijacked the republican party.....this is politics today. Now you can't help but notice that the democrats that have won the 2006 elections are more "conservative democrats" who won over historically GOP states. It would do our democratic party ALOT of good to realize that the way to win elections is not to embrace the non-religious, ultra progressive liberal ways of the far left. People in real America just dont think that way. You can win in San Francisco, Vermont, Manahattan type areas with that kind of stuff but not in Cleveland, Chicago, Pittsburgh, St Louis etc

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 08:43 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse LaurieLee See Profile I'm a Fan of LaurieLee

I live in San Francisco, and I wish Nancy Pelosi provided a lot more resistance to the Republicans on foreign policy. We might have politicians who are pro-choice, gay marriage, etc. but they just roll over when it comes to Bush/Cheney war crimes or Douglas Feith lies and manipulation.

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 09:41 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse TheBlackCat See Profile I'm a Fan of TheBlackCat

Very acurate, good post!

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 09:33 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse TheBlackCat See Profile I'm a Fan of TheBlackCat

LAST post sorry:

I apologize RED ROVER for calling you an SOB. That was uncalled for. I just got very incensed at your charge that I am a fake Catholic when I have devoted years of my life in unpaid service to the church. I also get very sensitive about Republicans claiming they care about children when I see the results of their policies every day. It just gets so frustrating that we have the ability to save a child and we CAN'T because of financial issues. To literally watch them die while trying so damn hard to find away to get them into treatment asap, while trying every avenue to get the money to save their lives. The Democratic party approves of killing thenm as babies, the Republican party is fine with killing them once they're born. It's not like they've made general cuts in healthcare, they SPECIFICALLY have SHREDDED the funding for CHIP, the program STRICTLY for LEGAL CITIZENS UNDER 18. Just explain to me what the difference is?

I should not have cursed at yout hough, no excuse for that. I am sorry.

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 11:18 PM on 05/14/2008
collapse TheBlackCat See Profile I'm a Fan of TheBlackCat

And regarding liberals having the courage of their convictions...

Boston was the home of the world's largest anti Taliban organization before 9/11 when everyone knew who they were. It was a group committed to raising awareness of Afghanastan's crippling Muslim regime against women.

Now that the Taliban has fallen and everyone KNOWS of the women's rights abuses, this group works in conjunction with the National Geographic society in trying to raise money that would go to educating and providing medical care for women in Afghanistan as the men in that country show no initiatives of doing this themselves.

Seriously man, all liberals are not Christopher Hitchens. Just like all conservatives are not Pat Buchanan. You are using the term "liberl" in far too narrow a context. Most people equate Democrat with liberal and conservative with republican. therefor most Democrats will say they are liberal. This does not mean they want "God" taken out of the pledge of allegiance. Just because there are outspoken jerk off liberals in Hollywood and online doesn't mean we're all like that. You ARE correct in that there are liberals as intolerant as far right conservatives. There are kids I knew in college who were insufferable who thought meat should be illegal and the military should be entirely disbanded. This is NOT your average liberal. Just like my husbands redneck racist in laws are NOT representative of conservatives as a whole.

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 04:14 PM on 05/15/2008
collapse Redrover666 See Profile I'm a Fan of Redrover666

TheBlackCat. I don't have anything against democrats or republicans.
A review of my comments would tend towards someone who is angered by this partisan crap.

I don't like liberals anymore than I like skin-heads, and in my estimation they are equally repugnant.
The vast majority of people are generally good people, or at least want to be good people. I tire of hearing liberals bash Christians, when in fact there are billions of them and only a very few behave badly. I live in the south. Christians of all sort are very nice here.

If liberals have the courage of their convictions, then how about they start invading Muslim prayer services or raising hell about female castration or honor killings. The fact is, liberals are cowardly and choose to harass groups that are otherwise harmless.

I am old enough to know that Bush didn't cause all our problems. We did.
I hear the most vile and angry crap coming from liberals. But you want to embarrass and anger them even more... Ask one when the last time they wrote or spoke to their congressman.

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 02:28 PM on 05/15/2008
collapse TheBlackCat See Profile I'm a Fan of TheBlackCat

I'm a liberal, and I wrote my congressman last week regarding a planned public school proposal in Boston that would be built by Scientologist. A month before that I wrote to my representative concerning Webb's proposed GI bill.

I write my congressman and get politically active for issues important to me, as my liberal parents taught me to do.

My husband is a liberal and writes his congress regularly and is in the army, having served in Iraq.

I have already reiterated several times that Massachusetts is the most liberal state in America yet has the largest concentration of practicing Catholics. We also have a huge Jewish population. Massachusetts is the most politically active state in the nation. We poll year after year for having more people vote than any other state and have more people politically active in ballot initiatives and political campaigns than any other state.

Everything you think about liberals is false. You are basing every liberal on who, Bill Maher?

Maybe you do not consider Judaism and Catholicism religions, as apparently all liberals hate religion yet all liberals I know in Massachusetts go to temple or church and are devout. I have repeatedly stated Boston is the most Catholic city in the nation yet aso the most liberal major city in America and you will not adress this. This makes me thinks you are anti-Catholic and anti-Semetic and do not consider these religions.

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 03:51 PM on 05/15/2008
collapse TheBlackCat See Profile I'm a Fan of TheBlackCat


ANd I don't vote democtrat "because they kill less babies" I stated that poorly. What I mean is that Republicans murder children by denying them healthcare. They murder children through war. Therefor DI'm not going to vote for Republicans on their false platform of "we respect human life more" because they don't. So then I think about things like the economy, foreign policy, education, and I vote democrat. Only idiots are one issue voters.

And I am a good Catholic you SOB. I lived in Mexico and worked at a Catholic orphanage for Pax Christi. I'm no freaking saint, lord knows my husband endures much more in the army then I ever did as a simple volunteer, but don't you tell me I'm not truly dedicated to my faith. What have YOU done in the name of Jesus to improve the life of a child? I work with children with cancer. I worked in an orphanage. I did this in Jesus's name. And I'm a liberal. But according to you, I'm a secret satanist. You're despicable.

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 11:06 PM on 05/14/2008
collapse Rippinit See Profile I'm a Fan of Rippinit

Did you know that it is a sin to cuss you "good catholic". Do you think God will be happy that you are a "good catholic".

Does being a "good catholic" get you into heaven?

Funny, I didn't think there was anything we could do to get into Heaven.

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 11:12 PM on 05/14/2008
collapse Rippinit See Profile I'm a Fan of Rippinit

It's nice to know that all I have to do is accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in my heart. He has done the rest.

He knows whether you truly believe or you are going through the motions for fire insurance just in case.

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 11:16 PM on 05/14/2008
collapse Rippinit See Profile I'm a Fan of Rippinit

Balck cat
You are being disingenuous. REasonable people do not want to kill children. Killing children was unavoidable when the US bombed Germany, but it happened because it needed to. YOu can disagree with whether it needed to happen, but to call into question the US govermant and its supporters because they felt it happen is ridiculous!

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 10:35 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse Rippinit See Profile I'm a Fan of Rippinit

If my government went to Iraq for the purpose of killing innocent children you don't think I would be outraged?

Are you outraged that the US killed children in Germany during WWII?

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 10:32 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse Rippinit See Profile I'm a Fan of Rippinit


I leave you with these words quoted from Jesus:

Matthew 7
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" 23 And then I will declare to them, "I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FORM ME, YOU PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS!"

24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching,

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse Rippinit See Profile I'm a Fan of Rippinit

Black cat
I understand that you believe that the Bible is a watered down bed time story and that it really has no teeth. But the Bible is the basis for Christianity. If you don't believe in the words of Jesus you really aren't a Christian or a Catholic in the same sense. But rather you are a Catholic in the sense that you belong to the Catholic club on Earth.

John
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 09:48 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse TheBlackCat See Profile I'm a Fan of TheBlackCat

I understand now. You don't mind your tax dollars going towards killing children in Iraq but you don't want any tax dollars spent saving the lives of children WHO CANNOT BE HELD RESPONSIOBLE FOR THEIR ECONOMIC PREDICAMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE CHILDREN in America.

Wow.

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 09:47 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse Rippinit See Profile I'm a Fan of Rippinit

I disagree with your premise. I do not believe that the democrats generally produce responsible legislation.

You can't continue to write checks that your bank cannot cash. The usual response is that it is military spending that is the problem, but entitlements by far account for the majority of the US budget. We live in a dangerous world and we must have a strong defense. San Antonio has its own program for uninsured people.

The Federal government should not be looked at as a big tit though it should help with some regulation and defense. Unfortunately, there are many democrats who want the Federal Gov to be all things for all people. The ultimate result of relieving people of their own responsibilities will be the collapse of our country since it requires the responsible to give up their own resources. The snowball is people readily forfeit their own responsibility and it becomes a vicious cycle down.

It isn't my responsibility to help my neighbor, but rather I do it because I want to help my neighbor. I am a cheerful giver and I give much. I also have mcuh taken from me by my government.

So, there is a difference between disagreeing with policy that absolves responsibility and policy empowers responsibility.

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 09:34 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse TheBlackCat See Profile I'm a Fan of TheBlackCat

Rip we just have fundamentaly different beliefs. You believe Jesus is the only path to God whereas I believe Jesus is A path to God. It is my chosen path but I think Buddhists or Jewish people have equally relevent paths that are different from mine. If I am wrong I and you are right then I will proudly stand by my non Christian bretheren in Hell rather than stay in the heaven of what I would view as an egonmaniaclal monster. But I don't think I'm wrong. I think your idea of Heaven and Hell is some fantastical bedtime story told to keep people in line, keep them from questioning, keep them ignorant, keep them afraid. Maybe I'm wrong, and if I am, it'll suck, and I'll be in Hell. But if I just said "Oh I believe only Jesus can get me into heaven and nothing else" then as you said, I would be lying for "fire insurance" and God would know anyways.

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 09:32 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse TheBlackCat See Profile I'm a Fan of TheBlackCat

I also am wondering why you didn't address my question of what is the difference between Democratic policies which kill babies pre birth and Republican policy which kills poor children? Aren't both equally wrong? Why is the Democratic party "worse" for them being killed at a younger age at least quickly whereas republican policies cause them to spend months dying of horrible diseases without good healthcare?

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 09:14 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse Rippinit See Profile I'm a Fan of Rippinit

True believers produce good fruit and feel convicted when they sin leading to repentance.

Everybody does good things. What is better? A good person that does bad things or a bad person that does good things? Those two descriptions cover just about everyone.

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 09:12 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse TheBlackCat See Profile I'm a Fan of TheBlackCat

Rip, you're right about that, but when you make statements like "it's nice to know that all I have to do is believe in Jesus and he does the rest" makes you sound that way. But I have no right to judge you based on one simple statement.

I do really want to know your answer to the Holocaust question I posed you though.

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 09:11 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse Rippinit See Profile I'm a Fan of Rippinit

Black Cat-
Do not judge me as being selfish or not caring for others. You do not know me and you are flat wrong.

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 09:07 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse Rippinit See Profile I'm a Fan of Rippinit

God also took the skins of innocent animals (there had never been death before this) to cover the sin of Adam and Eve. This was the earliest model of Jesus Christ in that it showed innocent blood sacrifice was necessary to cover sin.

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 09:06 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse Rippinit See Profile I'm a Fan of Rippinit

Your current Pope believes that you cannot enter Heaven without being covered by the blood sacrifice of Jesus prescribed from the beginning of time going back to Adam and Eve in the garden when God said that Serpent would bruise the heal of the seed of the woman and the seed of the woman would crush the head of the Serpent.

Men have the seed and women have the egg, but Jesus was not from the seed of a man. Jesus was born of a virgin. Genesis also says Men will create their own religions and that curses are generational. I do not believe that idolaters go to heaven, because Jesus made it clear that this is not the case.

I am not anti-catholic, but I do believe that the rituals and traditions employed create an atmosphere that leads some people to believe that it is the rituals and traditions that get you into heaven. Clearly that is wrong. You must truly believe in Jesus and His sacrifice and anything else you do is superfluous other than the creation of good fruit on Earth.

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 09:02 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse TheBlackCat See Profile I'm a Fan of TheBlackCat

And also Rip, you sound very lazy and selfish. It sounds to me like the reason YOU are Christian is because you think that that's all Jesus wants you to do and you don't have to actually go out in the world and help people and be a good person. Just say I believe in Jesus and that's enough. Jesus does the rest! That's what you say. SO you like Christianity because it means you can be completely self involved and do nothing to improve the world and people around you. Yeah, THAT'S what Jesus message was.

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 08:51 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse TheBlackCat See Profile I'm a Fan of TheBlackCat

I've been to Asia, I've seen what kind, gentle, selfless people the Buddhists are. If God is sending them to Hell, then I'm going there too, because I won't ENTER a Heaven that is Christian only.

Rip- I have a question for you...do you think the Holocaust was a good thing? After all, you believe God sentences all Jews to Hell for all eternity anyways to suffer, wouldn't that mean that the Final Soultion was simply God's work on earth, as the Nazi's created Hell on Earth and then, according to you, all these people who died for their faith would simply be sent to hell upon death in concentration camps?

Catholics believe each man is judged according to HIS OWN FAITH. A priest said to me when I was very young "If three children start our from three different points in the world and all walk North, they will all reach the North Pole eventually. Similarly, a Jewish Child, a Catholic Child, and a Muslim child are all on a path to God, they just have different paths to get to him. Buit in the end, we all reach him"

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 08:46 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse TheBlackCat See Profile I'm a Fan of TheBlackCat

Um, Catholics don't believe you have to be Christian to get into Heaven (today of course, this is the official stance of the church, it wasn't always like that, obviously). Therefor it would be pretty silly if any of us were Catholics for fear of Hell as opposed to it's just what we believe.

That's one of the things I love about the church!

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 08:42 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse myersms See Profile I'm a Fan of myersms

WOW!! if you were in OZ all you would have to do is click your heels,three times and you'd be home in Kansas.I believe you've been BAMBOOZELED three clicks sounds so much better.

favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 06:40 AM on 05/15/2008
collapse TheBlackCat See Profile I'm a Fan of TheBlackCat

RED ROVER:

I did not say I hate all Christians, but I understand how non Christians COULD. As I said, down south at any non fundamental service there were fundamentals harassing the parishoners. If you are a Buddhist or a Jew you probably aren't going to make a distinction between fundamental Christians and the rest of us.

ALso, why did you not respond at all to my question of why is it that mass has the most liberal population yet is the most devoutly catholic population in the nation? And why the orthodox jkews in Boston also vote overwhelmingly democrat? Do you honestly believe we are all in on some giant conspiracy to pretend to be religious when we in fact hate religion?

I didn't say just Iraq, but you easily glossed over the Republicans cutting funding for health insurance for impoverished AMERICAN CITIZENS. I work at the Dana Farber Cancer Institute. Every year less and less needy kids get heallthcare coverage due to REPUBLIUCAN CUTS. My job is to try and findfunding for them, specifically for pediatric cases. We are a non profit hospital and spend any profits on treatment for poor pts, but it litetrally costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. I have seen sio many kids die because they had to wait 6 months before starting chemo because we had to organize the money. And its gotten worse and worse since bush came into office and more and more cuts are made to children's healthcare.

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 11:01 PM on 05/14/2008
collapse Rippinit See Profile I'm a Fan of Rippinit

Sean Penn got something right...

"phenomenally inhuman and unconstitutional"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/celebritynews/1955538/Sean-Penn-endorses-Barack-Obama-at-Cannes-Film-Festival-opening.html

Sean obviously knows about Obama's vote to allow newborn babies to have blenders put into their little heads.

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 10:16 PM on 05/14/2008
collapse AmbivalentGuy See Profile I'm a Fan of AmbivalentGuy

OK,
another BIG headline for an insignificant story.

Hell, reading the comments told me more about what evangelicals are thinking.
I actually know plenty, and knew that they have never been the singular voice that the republicans have depended on distracting so successfully.

Clearly abortion still distracts attention from what the candidates can *actually* accomplish.
(If you're worried about the supremes, then I'd be more worried about the congressional races.
If you don't understand that, then please keep it to yourself.)

Perhaps some evangelical voters are realizing that they have been handled like yard tools by Republicans - used when necessary, but not really respected for more than their immediate utility.

But I am confused about being "born again", you know the religious mulligan that made W's past off limits for discussion.

The lead for the story concerns a young man. What do they say about him?
Son of a minister, absolutely immersed in the bible belt culture since birth,
and "born again"?

Isn't being "born again", in this case, about as routine and meaningless as confirmation in the Catholic Church? An adult, public acceptance of successful indoctrination?

There's a world of difference between the 18-24 year old evangelicals, and the older ones.
Most have not had the independence to truly face a crisis of faith.
Get back to me after they find out that god is not a vending machine.

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 10:15 PM on 05/14/2008
collapse Rippinit See Profile I'm a Fan of Rippinit

Well put.

replyReply favoriteFavorite Flag as abusive Posted 10:30 PM on 05/14/2008