Florida, Michigan cannot save Clinton

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NEDRA PICKLER | May 16, 2008 10:06 PM EST | AP

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Democratic presidential hopeful, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., walks from her campaign plane on the tarmac in Rapid City, South Dakota Thursday, May 15, 2008. (AP Photo/Elise Amendola)

WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign.

Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little interest in the former first lady's best-case scenario. Her position, part of a formidable comeback challenge, is that all the delegates be seated in accordance with their disputed primaries.

Even if they were, it wouldn't erase Barack Obama's growing lead in delegates.

The Democratic Party's Rules and Bylaws Committee, a 30-member panel charged with interpreting and enforcing party rules, is to meet May 31 to consider how to handle Michigan and Florida's 368 delegates _ both pledged delegates and superdelegates.

Last year, the panel imposed the harshest punishment it could render against the two states after they scheduled primaries in January, even though they were instructed not to vote until Feb. 5 or later. Michigan and Florida lost all their delegates to the national convention, and all the Democratic candidates agreed not to campaign in the two states, stripping them of all the influence they were trying to build by voting early.

But now there is agreement on all sides that at least some of the delegates should be restored in a gesture of party unity and respect to voters in two general election battlegrounds.

Clinton has been arguing for full reinstatement, which would boost her standing. She won both states, even though they didn't count toward the nomination and neither candidate campaigned in them. Obama even had his name pulled from Michigan's ballot.

The Associated Press interviewed a third of the panel members and several other Democrats involved in the negotiations and found widespread agreement that the states must be punished for stepping out of line. If not, many members say, other states will do the same thing in four years.

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"We certainly want to be fair to both candidates, and we want to be sure that we are fair to the 48 states who abided by the rules," said Democratic National Committee Secretary Alice Germond, a panel member unaligned with either candidate. "We don't want absolute chaos for 2012.

"We want to reach out to Michigan and Florida and seat some group of delegates in some manner, at least most of us do. These are two critical states for the general (election) and the voters of those states who were not the people who caused this awful conundrum to occur deserve our attention and deserve to be a part of our process and deserve to be at the convention," she said.

Just as Democrats across the country have been divided over which candidate would make the better nominee, most of the panel members also bring personal preferences to the table.

Many are long-standing party officials with close ties to the Clintons. The former first lady has 13 members publicly supporting her, including campaign advisers Harold Ickes and Tina Flournoy who are working to build her delegate count. Eight are openly aligned with Obama. Nine others are officially undeclared.

"We have to have delegates, and they have to be delegations that reflect the opinions of those two states," said former DNC Chairman Don Fowler, a committee member supporting Clinton. "How we get there is very different because everyone sees these questions of who it helps and who it hurts. I don't think the formulation has been found that will get around the piece at this point." But he said a solution is probably possible among the diverse interests.

Because Obama is in the lead for the nomination, his camp heads into the meeting in a position of strength. It is possible the Illinois senator could clinch the nomination by the time the panel meets if he picks up the pace of superdelegate endorsements in the coming weeks.

But Obama has such a lead that he may be able to afford to be generous and give Clinton most of the delegates. That would help put the issue behind them and help him build goodwill in Michigan and Florida heading into the November election.

Still, some think the fairest solution is to disregard the primary votes and split the delegations evenly between the two candidates. Yvonne Gates, a member of Nevada who said she is keeping her candidate preference private until after the meeting so her decision won't be questioned, said she isn't sure what position she would support at the meeting but that it must be fair to both candidates.

"My definition is a 50-50 split is something that is fair," she said. "It cannot be a situation where you give one candidate more votes than the other. In my opinion that wasn't an election when they didn't have a chance to get out and talk to the people of that community."

It's also possible that any vote that recognizes the Michigan and Florida results would legitimize their elections. Clinton has been arguing that she leads in the popular vote, but that's only when both states are included and it is very slim _ fewer than 5,000 votes out of 34 million cast.

Her accounting also doesn't include some caucus states that favored Obama and where the popular vote wasn't tallied. The measure of winning the nomination is not the popular vote but whoever can get the majority of delegates _ currently 2,026 are needed for the nomination although adding Michigan and Florida back in would change the threshold.

Obama climbed to 1,904 on Friday, according to The Associated Press count. Clinton has 1,719 delegates and is trying to use the popular vote argument to win over more.

Clinton encouraged supporters in an e-mail Friday to sign a message to the DNC asking them to count Michigan and Florida in the May 31 meeting. "I need you to remind them that in the Democratic Party, we count every vote," her e-mail said.

Fourteen of Clinton's Hispanic supporters in Congress sent a letter to the Rules and Bylaws Committee Friday arguing that disregarding the votes cast by Hispanics, 12 percent of the primary vote in Florida, could damage the nominee.

So far, Obama's campaign has not been giving direction publicly or privately to panel members. The Clinton campaign's official position has been full reinstatement, but her advisers acknowledge they are considering an idea before the panel to seat the delegates with half a vote each. Clinton campaign Chairman Terry McAuliffe said Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press" that they "certainly might" accept a compromise to seat half the delegates.

If their elections had been held according to party rules, Michigan and Florida would have allocated a total of 313 pledged delegates based on the outcome of the vote.

Using the results of the January elections with no votes for Obama from Michigan, Clinton would get 178 to Obama's 67, with the remainder in Michigan who voted "uncommitted" and giving her a 111-vote advantage. The remainder of the 368 delegates includes those representing the "uncommitted" vote in Michigan and John Edwards in Florida, along with superdelegates.

As of Friday, she was behind 185 delegates, so that would not catch her up even under that unlikely scenario.

The plans before the committee will be more generous to Obama. The Michigan Democratic Party has proposed giving 69 of its 128 delegates to Clinton and 59 to Obama, an advantage of 10 delegates for Clinton.

A proposal from Florida would halve its 185 delegates. From that, Clinton would get 52.5 and Obama 33.5, a 19-delegate advantage for Clinton.

"I think it's a reasonable solution to the problem that was created, and my hope is that we'll be able to get past this and move on," said Allan Katz, an Obama supporter who serves on the panel but won't be able to vote on any Florida solution because he is from the state.

The committee is not bound to select the proposals offered and has authority to reinstate any number of delegates and divide them in any way.

An open question is how to handle the other type of delegates each state lost _ the superdelegates who are party leaders not bound by the outcome of the vote and are free to support whatever candidate they personally choose. Michigan has 29 superdelegates, and Florida 26. A total of nine have declared for Obama, 15 for Clinton and the rest are undeclared.

___

On the Net:

Democratic National Committee: http://www.democrats.org

WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign. Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little ...
WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign. Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little ...
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- ChiGuy I'm a Fan of ChiGuy 324 fans permalink
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I suspect that out of a sense of decency, Obama would say, "Go ahead and let them be seated as-is."
But his people and the DNC won't let that happen.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:02 PM on 05/16/2008
- ginnypoo I'm a Fan of ginnypoo 7 fans permalink

Funny how when he had the popular vote IT MATTERED, AND DELEGATES DIDN'T...now when Hillary has the popular vote IT'S THE DELEGATES THAT COUNT....I say wthever....see you guys on the convention floor. We'll be the entire other half of the people there....hehehehe

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:09 PM on 05/16/2008
- EvoMan I'm a Fan of EvoMan 30 fans permalink

I don't recall his campaign ever stating the popular vote mattered. They've always been about delegates.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:29 PM on 05/16/2008
- ChiGuy I'm a Fan of ChiGuy 324 fans permalink
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Funny how Hillary was OK with the FL/MI agreement until she found herself behind.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:34 PM on 05/16/2008
- Rose52 I'm a Fan of Rose52 6 fans permalink

You need to get your facts straight.
Obama has always said it's about the delegates, never the popular vote.
Clinton while losing the delegate count, starting talking about popular vote.
And by the way, she wasn't too interested in FL and MI until after Super Tuesday.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:59 PM on 05/16/2008

Straw man argument. Obama has never said this. Also, he never took a position either for or against a Michigan re-vote. Their failure to re-vote was due to their own unspeakable incompetence.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:03 AM on 05/17/2008
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Hillary doesn't have the popular vote.

As her supporter, I believe you should defer to your candidate's views on the matter of Michigan and Florida, which is - and I quote - "It's clear, this election [Michigan is] having is not going to count for anything", and "We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process. And we believe the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role. Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:07 AM on 05/17/2008
- dajay I'm a Fan of dajay 16 fans permalink

How noble of Obama to want them seated now that he has the nomination. A few months ago, he and his campaign, made sure they didn't agree to a revote for these states.

There we go again. Phony and Hypocrite.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:12 PM on 05/16/2008
- ChiGuy I'm a Fan of ChiGuy 324 fans permalink
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Hey, Einstein..­..........

My post started with, "I suspect...".
It was ME that stated that Obama might do that. HE didn't say anyThing of the sort.

The only thing phony is your ability to argue a point.
Hell, you can't even discern speculation from fact.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:22 PM on 05/16/2008

Do you realize that Hillary Clinton signed a pledge stating that the MI and FL delegates would not count? But when she did she was the anointed one. And though I don't know if Obama is a phony and a hypocrite, I know she is and an unprincipled liar.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:02 AM on 05/17/2008
- olivia I'm a Fan of olivia 96 fans permalink

The Democratic party has too little discipline as it is. To allow two states to flaunt the rules without punishment will undermine the whole party. How can they possibly enforce the rules in the future with a precedent like seating MI and FL without penalty?

Republicans in FL cooked up the idea of breaking the DNC primary rules.

See how seriously the Democrats in FL took their flaunting of the DNC rules. Watch them pretend to protest, smirking and laughing all the while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r25wUeMAwdE&eurl=http

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:11 PM on 05/17/2008
- kiga I'm a Fan of kiga permalink

hey verlaine,
it looks like you are burning up! maybe you should sit in a bucket of ice water to cool off!! You are doing a great disservice to your guy by being so rude (I dare you be this rude when you are not hiding behind a blog). Don't forget 57% of democrats are women and 17,000,000 voted for Senator Clinton or as you would like to believe not for her, but against Obama because they are racist. Get a grip of yourself!
Last I looked this country had 50 states and every single vote is going to be counted. We are not going to let Obama steal this nomination like he stole the caucuses. He blocked revote and made sure that the By Law committee does not meet till May 31, 2008 so that Senator Clinton would lose momentum. Teh Clinton supporters have not drank the Kool-Aid and are paying attention.
Continue treating Senator Clinton's supporters poorly and we will show you who will laugh come fall :)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:37 PM on 05/16/2008

regardless of who is the nominee, if you vote for mccain or stay home, you'll get a whole bowl of poo poo for the next 4 years. petulance is not attractive -on a man, woman, or child ... wake up and understand what is at stake ...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:52 PM on 05/16/2008
- dajay I'm a Fan of dajay 16 fans permalink

Too bad the Obama supporters didn't think about the consequences a long time ago.

The whole bowl of poo poo will be on their heads.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:58 PM on 05/16/2008

A lot more people vote in the general election than vote in the primaries. When those people, who haven't been struck by "Obama lightning" realize what the kids they raised have done to them, they will write-in Hillary Clinton's name. When they join the Hillary supporters who can't vote for McCain, Hillary Clinton will get the most votes in the large states that have the most electoral delegates. That is what counts in the general election, not the little bitty states that Obama won.
What will be historic about the 2008 election for President is not that an African-American candidate won, but that a write-in candidate won and it was the first Woman.
That's what will be "Cool".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:24 AM on 05/17/2008
- verlaine I'm a Fan of verlaine 4 fans permalink

Hey Kiga and Dajay,
These links (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/12/obama-in-west-virginia-wh_n_101306.htmlhttp://us.ft.com/ftgateway/superpage.ft?news_id=fto051120081526533438&page=1 , http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/36624.html ) show examples of close minded white voters who openly stated their opposition to Obama based on his race. If you don't think Hillary was actively courting their vote thru fear-mongering you are living in a dream world. Obama leads Hillary in every major metric. Obama will win this nomination and beat McCain with or without your votes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:53 PM on 05/16/2008
- dajay I'm a Fan of dajay 16 fans permalink

Hey verlaine,

You know what you can do with those links, sweetie.

Obama won't win without over the other half of the Democratic party.

Keep the hate and racisim alive in the OBama Twilight ZOne.

Obama supporters should be so proud of themselves, but when their candidate loses in the fall, they will still be blaming HIllary and BIll Clinton because they are:

DESPICABLE< HATE MONGERING< RACIST SExiST< ARROGANT< DisgrACes TO THE DEMOcRATIC PARTY.

They are the NEW BUSHIES>

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:57 PM on 05/16/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

Emperor Palpatine had less hate than some of these bitter Clinton supporters...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 PM on 05/16/2008

You do yourself a disservice when you make comments like that. Hillary is not the only woman in America that qualifies for President. There are stronger women with less baggage that can do the job. You put your own womanhood into question when you put Hillary's abilities above your own. Please stop voting for people because they have a vagina. It's nonsense and a set back to women. Obama' s campaign has been very respectful to Hillary as well as the media. Hillary will be appearing in a CA court on fraud charges come November 2008 and that hasn't been mentioned once in the MSM. We are living in dangerous times and you should take your vote seriously. Women died and sacrificed for your right to vote and you will pay them back by voting out of spite. I hope you can live with that; that is if you don't die from grief when your son and/or daughter is deployed to Iraq and/or Afghanistan when John McCain institutes the draft during his presidency. How else will we have the presence to stay in Iraq for 5 or 100 years? Think 08'

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:46 AM on 05/17/2008
- LoloZ I'm a Fan of LoloZ 2 fans permalink

Hillary Clinton: Liar Liar Pantsuit on Fire!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:32 PM on 05/16/2008
- dajay I'm a Fan of dajay 16 fans permalink

How mature.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:47 PM on 05/16/2008

I am so glad Clinton is fading out of conversations. I noticed the Huff Po Politics page has just one picture of her -- hell even Edwards has 4!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:31 PM on 05/16/2008
- dajay I'm a Fan of dajay 16 fans permalink

Yeah, too bad, you hate obsessed Obama supporters, can't stop bashing her.

A lot of good that is doing your precious candidate.

You guys are dumber than I thought. It is obvious you have no intention of growing up.

Good luck with the Republicans. You are really going to need it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:45 PM on 05/16/2008
- ChiGuy I'm a Fan of ChiGuy 324 fans permalink
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So, BDunne, stating that he/she is glad that Hillary is fading is "hate"???

Grow a spine.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:07 PM on 05/16/2008

Where the heck is she?? I haven't seen any news about her today period. Is she campaigning? Its really weird....almost like she's dropped off the face of the earth.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:42 AM on 05/17/2008
- verlaine I'm a Fan of verlaine 4 fans permalink

Hillary - It's time for you to give it up, get out ,and go home!!
Your divisive, corrosive, dishonest, race-baiting, and fear-mongering brand of politics has been rejected (Notwithstanding WV - where you skillfully managed to lock up the Deliverance vote)

You can stamp your feet up and down all you want and hold your breath until you're blue in the face but you're not winning this nomination and Democrats aren't going to commit suicide by naming you as Obama's running mate.

The White House is not a Time Share for you and the Bush family to trade back and forth. This Nov we'll break the banana republic cycle of switching back and forth (Bush Clinton) from one corrupt junta to another one.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:05 PM on 05/16/2008
- dajay I'm a Fan of dajay 16 fans permalink

verlaine: Read the above post by kiga. I think you should take the advice there.

You are the hate mongering racist - a despicable, disgraceful Obama supporter.

Seek some therapy. You are obviously in need of it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:40 PM on 05/16/2008
- eurydice I'm a Fan of eurydice 10 fans permalink

Can't Florida just secede from the Union, call itself Batista Puta Norte, and leave our Democracy alone.
Debbie Wasserman Schultz can be their Fuhrer.

Pray for a sea-level rise, so that Mother Earth may eliminate Florida from the face of the planet (one of the few positive things that will be brought about by global warming)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:03 PM on 05/16/2008
- PaulLoeb I'm a Fan of PaulLoeb 11 fans permalink


The committee would do well to also look at the Michigan Democrats who strategically crossed over to try and further a divided Republican race

SEe www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-loeb/did-the-limbaugh-effect-a_b_101440.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 PM on 05/16/2008
- kevenseven I'm a Fan of kevenseven 501 fans permalink
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Nobody has a "right" to vote in a primary or caucus. Nobody has a "right" to have a voice in who the nominee of a party is.

So there is no "disenfran­chisement" because nobody has a "franchise" to vote in any primary or caucus.

Think I'm wrong? Then why are Greens prevented from voting in either the Dem or Rep primary in CA (and the same applies in many states). Show me in law where it says you have a right to participate in this contest.

The "election" has nothing to do with the DNC. This is not an "election" that we are discussing. Nobody will be "elected". That happens in Nov.

This is a contest to see who the nominee of the Democratic party will be. And it is ABSOLUTELY the right and responsibility of the DNC to control and manage that process.

And if this had been a contest for absolute popular votes, then the various candidates would have conducted very different campaigns. But this is a contest for delegates, and MI and FL have never had valid contests to select delegates, so if they have any it will be only by the suffrage of the other states.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:35 PM on 05/16/2008
    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:35 PM on 05/16/2008
- bentenrai I'm a Fan of bentenrai 3 fans permalink

All the naysaying and hatred spewed towards Obama by Hillary's extreme supporters and McCain's GOP goons tell me one thing: He must be doing something right.
You can actually measure your success by the number of people who go against you when you win.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:32 PM on 05/16/2008
- donkat I'm a Fan of donkat 2 fans permalink

It seems to be over for Hill....now it seems many of her supporters are up in arms and feel the process was not fair to her. I don't see it, but then again, I'm not one of her supporters. I do understand the frustration and anger at the loss, though. Being on the losing end of anything isn't pleasant.

From the beginning, this candidacy was hers to lose. She seemed to have it all sewn up. Through her own questionable judgement and the help of the likes of Mark Penn (who didn't know that Dems have proportional allocation of delegates - unlike the Repubs) and Bill "helping" and a host of other damaging events (sniper fire) that she lost. If you're going to be angry at anyone, maybe it should be at Hillary, herself and the incompetent surrogates who she put in charge.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:22 PM on 05/16/2008

If Hillary was not married to Bill Clinton, she would not have lasted this long!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:15 PM on 05/16/2008
- eurydice I'm a Fan of eurydice 10 fans permalink

And yet, what chance she had, Bill ended up crushing that himself with his runaway mouth.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:58 PM on 05/16/2008
- dajay I'm a Fan of dajay 16 fans permalink

saun8934: She would not have lasted this long? LOL! She can wipe the floor with Barack Obama in terms of brains, experience, and competence, but one thing she didn't have going for her was the media in her pocket like Obama, the race card being played by her campaign and surrogates, like Obama, and the Dem party who was intent on weeding her out.

BIll Clinton had nothing to do with it. Except that she had the support of one of the most successful Democratic presidents we had.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:54 PM on 05/16/2008
- EvoMan I'm a Fan of EvoMan 30 fans permalink

"She can wipe the floor with Barack Obama in terms of brains, experience, and competence..."

Which is, of course, why she ran such a "competent" campaign.

He's actually smarter than she is and he has more experience in elected office. He also is a more competent campaigner. He knows who to hire to get the job done. She obviously doesn't. Quit being a sore loser.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:24 AM on 05/17/2008
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Turn out the lights
The party's over
They say that all good things must end
Call it a night
The party's over - Willie Nelson

Good night Hillary, don't forget to write

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:09 PM on 05/16/2008
- derekw007 I'm a Fan of derekw007 10 fans permalink
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You know who else won't save Clinton?








That's right - Jesus.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:44 PM on 05/16/2008
- bentenrai I'm a Fan of bentenrai 3 fans permalink

Come on now... I'm not a Hillary supporter, but don't you presume to know what Jesus would do if you haven't heard his pitch.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:30 PM on 05/16/2008
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