Florida, Michigan cannot save Clinton

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NEDRA PICKLER | May 16, 2008 10:06 PM EST | AP

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Democratic presidential hopeful, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., walks from her campaign plane on the tarmac in Rapid City, South Dakota Thursday, May 15, 2008. (AP Photo/Elise Amendola)

WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign.

Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little interest in the former first lady's best-case scenario. Her position, part of a formidable comeback challenge, is that all the delegates be seated in accordance with their disputed primaries.

Even if they were, it wouldn't erase Barack Obama's growing lead in delegates.

The Democratic Party's Rules and Bylaws Committee, a 30-member panel charged with interpreting and enforcing party rules, is to meet May 31 to consider how to handle Michigan and Florida's 368 delegates _ both pledged delegates and superdelegates.

Last year, the panel imposed the harshest punishment it could render against the two states after they scheduled primaries in January, even though they were instructed not to vote until Feb. 5 or later. Michigan and Florida lost all their delegates to the national convention, and all the Democratic candidates agreed not to campaign in the two states, stripping them of all the influence they were trying to build by voting early.

But now there is agreement on all sides that at least some of the delegates should be restored in a gesture of party unity and respect to voters in two general election battlegrounds.

Clinton has been arguing for full reinstatement, which would boost her standing. She won both states, even though they didn't count toward the nomination and neither candidate campaigned in them. Obama even had his name pulled from Michigan's ballot.

The Associated Press interviewed a third of the panel members and several other Democrats involved in the negotiations and found widespread agreement that the states must be punished for stepping out of line. If not, many members say, other states will do the same thing in four years.

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"We certainly want to be fair to both candidates, and we want to be sure that we are fair to the 48 states who abided by the rules," said Democratic National Committee Secretary Alice Germond, a panel member unaligned with either candidate. "We don't want absolute chaos for 2012.

"We want to reach out to Michigan and Florida and seat some group of delegates in some manner, at least most of us do. These are two critical states for the general (election) and the voters of those states who were not the people who caused this awful conundrum to occur deserve our attention and deserve to be a part of our process and deserve to be at the convention," she said.

Just as Democrats across the country have been divided over which candidate would make the better nominee, most of the panel members also bring personal preferences to the table.

Many are long-standing party officials with close ties to the Clintons. The former first lady has 13 members publicly supporting her, including campaign advisers Harold Ickes and Tina Flournoy who are working to build her delegate count. Eight are openly aligned with Obama. Nine others are officially undeclared.

"We have to have delegates, and they have to be delegations that reflect the opinions of those two states," said former DNC Chairman Don Fowler, a committee member supporting Clinton. "How we get there is very different because everyone sees these questions of who it helps and who it hurts. I don't think the formulation has been found that will get around the piece at this point." But he said a solution is probably possible among the diverse interests.

Because Obama is in the lead for the nomination, his camp heads into the meeting in a position of strength. It is possible the Illinois senator could clinch the nomination by the time the panel meets if he picks up the pace of superdelegate endorsements in the coming weeks.

But Obama has such a lead that he may be able to afford to be generous and give Clinton most of the delegates. That would help put the issue behind them and help him build goodwill in Michigan and Florida heading into the November election.

Still, some think the fairest solution is to disregard the primary votes and split the delegations evenly between the two candidates. Yvonne Gates, a member of Nevada who said she is keeping her candidate preference private until after the meeting so her decision won't be questioned, said she isn't sure what position she would support at the meeting but that it must be fair to both candidates.

"My definition is a 50-50 split is something that is fair," she said. "It cannot be a situation where you give one candidate more votes than the other. In my opinion that wasn't an election when they didn't have a chance to get out and talk to the people of that community."

It's also possible that any vote that recognizes the Michigan and Florida results would legitimize their elections. Clinton has been arguing that she leads in the popular vote, but that's only when both states are included and it is very slim _ fewer than 5,000 votes out of 34 million cast.

Her accounting also doesn't include some caucus states that favored Obama and where the popular vote wasn't tallied. The measure of winning the nomination is not the popular vote but whoever can get the majority of delegates _ currently 2,026 are needed for the nomination although adding Michigan and Florida back in would change the threshold.

Obama climbed to 1,904 on Friday, according to The Associated Press count. Clinton has 1,719 delegates and is trying to use the popular vote argument to win over more.

Clinton encouraged supporters in an e-mail Friday to sign a message to the DNC asking them to count Michigan and Florida in the May 31 meeting. "I need you to remind them that in the Democratic Party, we count every vote," her e-mail said.

Fourteen of Clinton's Hispanic supporters in Congress sent a letter to the Rules and Bylaws Committee Friday arguing that disregarding the votes cast by Hispanics, 12 percent of the primary vote in Florida, could damage the nominee.

So far, Obama's campaign has not been giving direction publicly or privately to panel members. The Clinton campaign's official position has been full reinstatement, but her advisers acknowledge they are considering an idea before the panel to seat the delegates with half a vote each. Clinton campaign Chairman Terry McAuliffe said Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press" that they "certainly might" accept a compromise to seat half the delegates.

If their elections had been held according to party rules, Michigan and Florida would have allocated a total of 313 pledged delegates based on the outcome of the vote.

Using the results of the January elections with no votes for Obama from Michigan, Clinton would get 178 to Obama's 67, with the remainder in Michigan who voted "uncommitted" and giving her a 111-vote advantage. The remainder of the 368 delegates includes those representing the "uncommitted" vote in Michigan and John Edwards in Florida, along with superdelegates.

As of Friday, she was behind 185 delegates, so that would not catch her up even under that unlikely scenario.

The plans before the committee will be more generous to Obama. The Michigan Democratic Party has proposed giving 69 of its 128 delegates to Clinton and 59 to Obama, an advantage of 10 delegates for Clinton.

A proposal from Florida would halve its 185 delegates. From that, Clinton would get 52.5 and Obama 33.5, a 19-delegate advantage for Clinton.

"I think it's a reasonable solution to the problem that was created, and my hope is that we'll be able to get past this and move on," said Allan Katz, an Obama supporter who serves on the panel but won't be able to vote on any Florida solution because he is from the state.

The committee is not bound to select the proposals offered and has authority to reinstate any number of delegates and divide them in any way.

An open question is how to handle the other type of delegates each state lost _ the superdelegates who are party leaders not bound by the outcome of the vote and are free to support whatever candidate they personally choose. Michigan has 29 superdelegates, and Florida 26. A total of nine have declared for Obama, 15 for Clinton and the rest are undeclared.

___

On the Net:

Democratic National Committee: http://www.democrats.org

WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign. Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little ...
WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign. Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little ...
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Could it be that if Hillary stopped campaigning, she would have to testify at the Peter Paul trial? Didn't the judge put it off until after she stops running?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:42 PM on 05/16/2008

Well, that would explain the Rezko indictment this afternoon.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:46 PM on 05/16/2008
- rmetz74 I'm a Fan of rmetz74 10 fans permalink

You mean the Rezko case in which Obama has been accused of absolutely no wrongdoing? The one about which the Chicage Sun Times said, "Barack Obama now has spoken about his ties to Tony Rezko in uncommon detail. That's a standard for candor by which other presidential candidates facing serious inquiries now can be judged."? (March 16, look it up.)

THAT Rezko case?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:19 PM on 05/16/2008

Bingo!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:54 PM on 05/16/2008
- pilgrim7 I'm a Fan of pilgrim7 11 fans permalink

Is there a muzzle on the MSM preventing them from reporting anything at all regarding Hillary Clinton's involvement in a major lawsuit? Has the MSM been slapped with some type of gag order or is it voluntary? Why is Hillary's lawsuit being given the kid-glove treatment by MSM? Why is kept out of the spotlight? Americans have the right to know the truth about our elected officials, especially one running for the highest office in the land who is a party to the the largest election law fraud in history,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq8aopATYyw&feature=related

"HILLARY WILL NOT BE DEPOSED until AFTER the election (!) ...

Judge Aurelio Munoz, who appears rather friendly with Clinton attorney David Kendall, requested that Kendall say hello to a friend named Bill at Kendall's firm, Connolly and Williams. Munoz went to law school with him. Isn't that nice.

Even though Hillary will be delayed, there will be numerous witnesses who have important things to say. They include defendants former President Bill Clinton...­Chelsea Clinton, former Vice President Al Gore, Gov. Ed Rendell...­Patti Solis Doyle, LARRY KING...and many others.

Even before her testimony, the voters will learn about her obstruction of justice and the false FEC reporting.­"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2007128/posts

That same Bosnia sniper-fire pathological liar who accuses Peter Paul of being a professional liar has yet once again been caught and exposed on tape! Wake up, people.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:25 PM on 05/16/2008

I personally think its a blessing the trial will take place only after the primaries have come to a close.The Clintons plans were should she win(which by them was inevitable) then she will have too much power to elude justice. But because she has lost,the powers and influence they had before the commencent of ths race has totally evapourated,u can tell when u see their once loyal supporters jumping off thier ship. The trial will be fairer now.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:02 PM on 05/16/2008

CrazyDemocrat, I agree .It has been alledged that hill and bill were behind JFK, jr's strange plane crash. I never, ever wanted to think that they would be capable of something that draconian. (JFK,jr was going to run for the senate seat that Hillary now holds). But after they have beared their souls, they are very capable.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:35 PM on 05/16/2008

Sick......­Beyond sick......­.....dare I say ......Delu­sional??

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:54 PM on 05/16/2008

That is a terrible thing to imply, I don't know what your thinking but before I would say anything like that, I would dam* sure have something to back it up with.
Hillary lost my vote months ago, I am now a staunch Obama supporter. So are a great many others. Let's not get crazy and stay stuff that would really freak people out, LIKE ME! Show your supporting documentation, or keep it to yourself.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:16 PM on 05/16/2008

Please. Stop spinning those old, tired conspiracy theories. No one's opinion of the Clintons is lower than mine, but all that hopeless intrigue-spinning does is give them cover for their real crimes . . . you know, the ones that were on the front page for everyone to see . . . which, as with every US President, are always far worse than this made-up junk.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:25 PM on 05/16/2008
- dct1999 I'm a Fan of dct1999 333 fans permalink
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They are also responsible for the disappearances of Amelia Earhart, Judge Crater and Jimmy Hoffa.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:14 PM on 05/16/2008
- truthskr I'm a Fan of truthskr 9 fans permalink

I am going to howl with laughter when MI and FL (if by some miracle) do get seated per the Clinton metrics, and gee...Obam­a still wins by 100+ delegates. Hillary knows that it will make no difference, she's just trying to move the goal posts for the delegate count required to clinch the nomination in the hopes that in the additional amount of time it would take Obama to get to 2209 (or whatever number it is she's now claiming) instead of 2025, that something disasterous will happen to Obama or his campaign. She's a real class act. All ego, no grace.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:35 PM on 05/16/2008

bingo.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:49 PM on 05/16/2008

Gee , that's pretty sharp thinkin' there "truth"...­...
Wonder if you've ever considered that it's VERY much in Obama's self-interest as Democratic nominee to seat Fla. and Michigan ?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:58 PM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

Obama needs to start smoking again. You can see the he needs his nicotine..­...I get that way when I need a smoke.

Lethargic

Lets get a email campaign to get Michelle of his back about smoking until after his second term.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:35 PM on 05/16/2008

She's starting to sound pathetic, and it's starting to get embarrassing. Hillary, sweetie, get out now while you still have some dignity left. Have you noticed the headlines lately? Everyone else is moving on, you should, too.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:24 PM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

She will ride it out and fade into the history of democratic politics. She has spent all her good will during this fight and is left with nothing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:32 PM on 05/16/2008
- ReportThis I'm a Fan of ReportThis 7 fans permalink

Putting aside the hurricanes God sent , Florida has never been appropriately punished for throwing the 2000 election to Bush. Now it's payback time: Seat the Michigan delegates, and screw Florida.

Some would argue that this solution would alienate Florida voters and drive them into the GOP camp in the general election. To this I would respond: (1) Florida will vote Republican anyway, (2) Obama will win in November regardless of how Florida votes, and (3) Think of all the FEMA monies that will be saved when Obama refuses to authorize disaster relief following Florida's next hurricane.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:23 PM on 05/16/2008

you dummy,
the florida results were stolen by the Supreme Court.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:48 PM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

No someone gave Al Gore the advice not to push the vote count.....­The DLC and DNC.....at that time headed by?????????

Clinton cronies.

Gee what a coincidence.

The Clinton's have been engineering this since he left the white house.....­We all should thank John Dean.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:04 PM on 05/16/2008

You have the mentality of the extremist right wing neocons. Hurricanes punishment for the election of 2000, that sounds idiotic.

Forget the Supreme Court that appointed Bush.

Obama would never refuse aid to a state that has suffered a natural disaster. For you to even suggest it only proves how diverse a coalition of Obama supporters there are.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:21 PM on 05/16/2008
- Canaris I'm a Fan of Canaris 2 fans permalink

Katherine Harris, the (Republican) Florida Secretary of State at the time, who stopped thed recounts, bears a large portion of the responsibility for the 2000 Florida election fiasco.

Her karma has already bitten her squarely on the arse, as she was humiliatingly defeated in her bid for a Florida Senate seat, after sinking a big chunk of her own money into her campaign.

The consensus in Florida on Katherine Harris now is that she's simply batshit crazy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:19 PM on 05/16/2008

well, yeah! screw Florida, and Florida will screw Obama !! it's called payback !

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:41 PM on 05/16/2008

The DNC decision to punish Democratic voters in Florida and Michigan who lacked the power to make a remedy was and is draconian and stupid.

In Florida you have a Republican House, Senate, and Governor. Exactly how were Democratic voters in Florida supposed to change the primary date? The Republicans moved to give Florida half the say it would have by cutting its number of delegates. The DNC decided to make an example out of Florida and turn Florida Democrats into zeros. That the candidates themselves lacked the judgment or the courage to stand up to this injustice at the time doesn't serve to validate it or make it right. Calls to give Florida and Michigan a place at the convention and split the delegates 50-50 is like offering a hungry person a picture of a meal. A completely empty gesture that is just crass pandering and expediency­..

How this can be the Democratic party is beyond me.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:18 PM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

I recommend you organize and throw the bums out that did this to you. That is your state houses.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:27 PM on 05/16/2008

I live in New York and had the opportunity to vote and have my voice heard.

The Democratic voters of Florida and Michigan deserved no less.

There are soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan from Florida and Michigan and at home they lose their say? Explain to me how that is a great idea.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:49 PM on 05/16/2008

So the rules be damned? The Democrats in FL state house voted for it, except for 2.
It is not "injustice" it is following the rules, you know what we teach our kids to do.
To have them count now, as is, would not be fair and you know it.
It should be a 50/50 split, period.
The voters in Fl and MI need to vote out the pols who did this. That would be fair.
"crass pandering and expediency" I don't see that at all.
Stop looking at everything threw the eyes of the Clinton's.­Take off your Hillary Goggles! Get on board the train, for change.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:33 PM on 05/16/2008
- abby4ever I'm a Fan of abby4ever 239 fans permalink
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If this article by Bob Beckel of Real Clear Politics, out just yesterday, is right, some superdelegates that owe the Clintons may force Obama to put her on the ticket as VP---in exchange for not blocking his becoming the nominee. Here's the link, it's just one page, and if you don't want Hillary as VP, a little scary:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/05/if_clinton_wants_to_be_vp_obam.html
All we need is Obama, the champion of a new kind of politics, caving in to a backroom deal---I don't say he will, but if he must to take the nomination, what a test this will be for him. Yikes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:15 PM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

That is what they will try to do but that will just mean that he will squash them like a bug once he is president.
They don't see the train heading for them and will be sorry they got in front of it. He has a grass roots base in every state now. With the exception of 2. Mich and FL. So they had better watch out who they play hardball with because $100,000,000 can elect somebody other than them

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:30 PM on 05/16/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

It won't happen that way. The Democrats, particularly at the convention, are going to be falling over themselves to express a sense of unity to the electorate going into the November. Obama will,as his his right for reaching the 2026 marker, select a VP candidate of his own choosing, and the delegates will endorse it.

Democrats won't risk a contentious convention, with the eyes of all Americans watching.

I think he'll choose Sebelius, partly as a gesture to the women who backed Hillary because they would like to see a female president (as opposed to those who supported her because they wanted Hillary! or nothing). Sebelius could then run in 2016, she'll only be 67.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:44 PM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

Won't be a woman....H­ate to say it HRC has done damage to the party as it concerns a that. Her supporters threats has made sure that they will not repeat this mistake again.....­Sorry but it went far

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:49 PM on 05/16/2008
- 23000Days I'm a Fan of 23000Days 94 fans permalink
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I agree. Sebelius will be the choice. She fits in every aspect.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:55 PM on 05/16/2008
- abby4ever I'm a Fan of abby4ever 239 fans permalink
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Thanks, Jack, hope you are right.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:10 PM on 05/16/2008

Hey "sweetie", are u still in the race?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:03 PM on 05/16/2008

yes Sweetie!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:55 PM on 05/16/2008

Gosh darn, Andrea Mitchell and her never let it die spiel. "I know she'd take it if he offered", the reporter she's talking to...He's not going to offer it...lol

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:00 PM on 05/16/2008
- heal57 I'm a Fan of heal57 26 fans permalink

Andrea Mitchell is so anti-Obama, it's really annoying. Her and her husband, Greenspan, have nothing in common with the middle class of Ameria. Believe me,
Clinton will not be on the Obama ticket. They'll make another kind of deal but that that one.


Independent for Obama '08

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:57 PM on 05/16/2008
- dajay I'm a Fan of dajay 16 fans permalink

I sure hope Hillary isn't Obama's VP. That would be degrading for her, that's for sure.

It would only benefit Obama, and not her. Why should she do that for him?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:11 AM on 05/17/2008

There is only one possible event that could save Hillary, and my biggest fear is that she may very well orchestrate it !!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:59 PM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

HRC will never be elected another office in the party unless she begs for Obama's support.
"Hard Working Americans, White Americans"
Please read. Nobody in the party is talking about it, because they are afraid African-Americans will hear it.
Please read and highlight the words "She has unleashed the gates of hell," a longtime party leader told me. "She's saying, 'He's not one of us.'"

http://essence.typepad.com/news/2008/05/peggy-noonan-ri.html

I sometimes wonder if anybody on hear knows anything about politics. The story is always the one that is not spoken in public.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:04 PM on 05/16/2008

i think you missed my whole point..I believe Clinton will have Obama assassinated before she allows him to be the nominee..H­ope that's clear enough !!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:12 PM on 05/16/2008

another science-fiction reader !!! I wish Hillary had those powers !!! it would have been easier for her, but she prefers to fight

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:48 PM on 05/16/2008
- zebra3 I'm a Fan of zebra3 2 fans permalink

I'm sorry, but I really don't appreciate the disingenuous "disenfran­chisement" chant that some folks are making about MI and FL.

Here are my reasons:

First, let's be honest here: the Clinton campaign had hoped that no state voting after February 5 would really "count."

Second, Sen. Clinton agreed that FL and MI would not count.

Third, FL and MI knew the rules and chose to violate them. What sense does it make to reward them for this?

Fourth, if FL and MI end up "counting," the truly disenfranchised voters will be all the folks who stayed home, knowing their votes would not be counted.

Fifth, it is well-known that Clinton effectively broke her promise not to campaign in FL. Her campaign pushed hard to make sure her supporters in FL voted anyway. I think it's clear that the other candidates really acted in reliance on the DNC rules and did not engage in similar behavior.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:55 PM on 05/16/2008
- olivia I'm a Fan of olivia 96 fans permalink

The "disenfran­chisement" argument is disingenuous, and everybody knows that, evey Hillary supporters.

She is an unfair person not to put the blame on the state party leaders who disenfranchised their own voters.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:00 PM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

Yes, HRC's plan was to disenfranchise the entire country.
It was her plan to come back after everyone has voted and have the Super Delegates overturn the process.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:40 PM on 05/16/2008
- VivaZapata I'm a Fan of VivaZapata 63 fans permalink
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She's done. Hanging in makes her appear petty and spiteful. The sooner she gets out and demonstrates a forceful support of Obama will be the sooner she repairs that perception.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:53 PM on 05/16/2008
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of course don't count the caucus states, because they never happened. why isn't anyone calling her out on this? she's losing by every metric and she knows it. so sad.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:53 PM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

I'm leaving yo'll now. Please reread my post and understand why this is needed and how this has been very good for the party. Then be sure to thank Howard Dean for freeing our Party from the Fat Cats and special interest. We have a grass roots movement that can grow and change this country.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:50 PM on 05/16/2008

Yeah, thanks for everything, Howard.

Can hardly say how MUCH we appreciate it........­..........­..........­..........­.....tm

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:22 PM on 05/16/2008
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