Florida, Michigan cannot save Clinton

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NEDRA PICKLER | May 16, 2008 10:06 PM EST | AP

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Democratic presidential hopeful, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., walks from her campaign plane on the tarmac in Rapid City, South Dakota Thursday, May 15, 2008. (AP Photo/Elise Amendola)

WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign.

Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little interest in the former first lady's best-case scenario. Her position, part of a formidable comeback challenge, is that all the delegates be seated in accordance with their disputed primaries.

Even if they were, it wouldn't erase Barack Obama's growing lead in delegates.

The Democratic Party's Rules and Bylaws Committee, a 30-member panel charged with interpreting and enforcing party rules, is to meet May 31 to consider how to handle Michigan and Florida's 368 delegates _ both pledged delegates and superdelegates.

Last year, the panel imposed the harshest punishment it could render against the two states after they scheduled primaries in January, even though they were instructed not to vote until Feb. 5 or later. Michigan and Florida lost all their delegates to the national convention, and all the Democratic candidates agreed not to campaign in the two states, stripping them of all the influence they were trying to build by voting early.

But now there is agreement on all sides that at least some of the delegates should be restored in a gesture of party unity and respect to voters in two general election battlegrounds.

Clinton has been arguing for full reinstatement, which would boost her standing. She won both states, even though they didn't count toward the nomination and neither candidate campaigned in them. Obama even had his name pulled from Michigan's ballot.

The Associated Press interviewed a third of the panel members and several other Democrats involved in the negotiations and found widespread agreement that the states must be punished for stepping out of line. If not, many members say, other states will do the same thing in four years.

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"We certainly want to be fair to both candidates, and we want to be sure that we are fair to the 48 states who abided by the rules," said Democratic National Committee Secretary Alice Germond, a panel member unaligned with either candidate. "We don't want absolute chaos for 2012.

"We want to reach out to Michigan and Florida and seat some group of delegates in some manner, at least most of us do. These are two critical states for the general (election) and the voters of those states who were not the people who caused this awful conundrum to occur deserve our attention and deserve to be a part of our process and deserve to be at the convention," she said.

Just as Democrats across the country have been divided over which candidate would make the better nominee, most of the panel members also bring personal preferences to the table.

Many are long-standing party officials with close ties to the Clintons. The former first lady has 13 members publicly supporting her, including campaign advisers Harold Ickes and Tina Flournoy who are working to build her delegate count. Eight are openly aligned with Obama. Nine others are officially undeclared.

"We have to have delegates, and they have to be delegations that reflect the opinions of those two states," said former DNC Chairman Don Fowler, a committee member supporting Clinton. "How we get there is very different because everyone sees these questions of who it helps and who it hurts. I don't think the formulation has been found that will get around the piece at this point." But he said a solution is probably possible among the diverse interests.

Because Obama is in the lead for the nomination, his camp heads into the meeting in a position of strength. It is possible the Illinois senator could clinch the nomination by the time the panel meets if he picks up the pace of superdelegate endorsements in the coming weeks.

But Obama has such a lead that he may be able to afford to be generous and give Clinton most of the delegates. That would help put the issue behind them and help him build goodwill in Michigan and Florida heading into the November election.

Still, some think the fairest solution is to disregard the primary votes and split the delegations evenly between the two candidates. Yvonne Gates, a member of Nevada who said she is keeping her candidate preference private until after the meeting so her decision won't be questioned, said she isn't sure what position she would support at the meeting but that it must be fair to both candidates.

"My definition is a 50-50 split is something that is fair," she said. "It cannot be a situation where you give one candidate more votes than the other. In my opinion that wasn't an election when they didn't have a chance to get out and talk to the people of that community."

It's also possible that any vote that recognizes the Michigan and Florida results would legitimize their elections. Clinton has been arguing that she leads in the popular vote, but that's only when both states are included and it is very slim _ fewer than 5,000 votes out of 34 million cast.

Her accounting also doesn't include some caucus states that favored Obama and where the popular vote wasn't tallied. The measure of winning the nomination is not the popular vote but whoever can get the majority of delegates _ currently 2,026 are needed for the nomination although adding Michigan and Florida back in would change the threshold.

Obama climbed to 1,904 on Friday, according to The Associated Press count. Clinton has 1,719 delegates and is trying to use the popular vote argument to win over more.

Clinton encouraged supporters in an e-mail Friday to sign a message to the DNC asking them to count Michigan and Florida in the May 31 meeting. "I need you to remind them that in the Democratic Party, we count every vote," her e-mail said.

Fourteen of Clinton's Hispanic supporters in Congress sent a letter to the Rules and Bylaws Committee Friday arguing that disregarding the votes cast by Hispanics, 12 percent of the primary vote in Florida, could damage the nominee.

So far, Obama's campaign has not been giving direction publicly or privately to panel members. The Clinton campaign's official position has been full reinstatement, but her advisers acknowledge they are considering an idea before the panel to seat the delegates with half a vote each. Clinton campaign Chairman Terry McAuliffe said Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press" that they "certainly might" accept a compromise to seat half the delegates.

If their elections had been held according to party rules, Michigan and Florida would have allocated a total of 313 pledged delegates based on the outcome of the vote.

Using the results of the January elections with no votes for Obama from Michigan, Clinton would get 178 to Obama's 67, with the remainder in Michigan who voted "uncommitted" and giving her a 111-vote advantage. The remainder of the 368 delegates includes those representing the "uncommitted" vote in Michigan and John Edwards in Florida, along with superdelegates.

As of Friday, she was behind 185 delegates, so that would not catch her up even under that unlikely scenario.

The plans before the committee will be more generous to Obama. The Michigan Democratic Party has proposed giving 69 of its 128 delegates to Clinton and 59 to Obama, an advantage of 10 delegates for Clinton.

A proposal from Florida would halve its 185 delegates. From that, Clinton would get 52.5 and Obama 33.5, a 19-delegate advantage for Clinton.

"I think it's a reasonable solution to the problem that was created, and my hope is that we'll be able to get past this and move on," said Allan Katz, an Obama supporter who serves on the panel but won't be able to vote on any Florida solution because he is from the state.

The committee is not bound to select the proposals offered and has authority to reinstate any number of delegates and divide them in any way.

An open question is how to handle the other type of delegates each state lost _ the superdelegates who are party leaders not bound by the outcome of the vote and are free to support whatever candidate they personally choose. Michigan has 29 superdelegates, and Florida 26. A total of nine have declared for Obama, 15 for Clinton and the rest are undeclared.

___

On the Net:

Democratic National Committee: http://www.democrats.org

WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign. Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little ...
WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign. Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little ...
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- lbrillante I'm a Fan of lbrillante 7 fans permalink

The needs to follow through with it's previous ruling to maintain it's credibility and not count these tainted elections. Too many factors were affected by their ruling to make it fair to count them in any way.
After standing by their ruling not to count these tainted primaries they could then allow the delegates of Florida and Michigan to be seated 50/50 for the sake of party unty. Of course they should not have the ability to change their vote/representation at the conference.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:20 PM on 05/16/2008
- likeicare I'm a Fan of likeicare 8 fans permalink

Are we there, yet?

This car-trip has been going on FOREVER!

Time to Barack and Roll!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:15 PM on 05/16/2008
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What is wrong with enforcing the rules as they stand? States and candidates alike knew the rules. Some chose to break them... and that is now cause to re-write the rules? Nonsense.

(looking at HRC's strategy, could she be pushing for some crazy convention floor vote? I doubt it will happen, but if by some odd event there is a tie and a second vote goes to the floor, then what? If MI and FL are seated, THEN how would their votes be counted?)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:11 PM on 05/16/2008
- Felicty I'm a Fan of Felicty 31 fans permalink
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Just drive a spike in her heart and be done with it!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:10 PM on 05/16/2008

Why in the reporting of this issue Is there never a mention of the "pledge" that was signed by the candidates to respect the DNC rules? "Keeping your word" ( or not ) is a factor for me in choosing employees -- and the President is our employee.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:10 PM on 05/16/2008

Exactly. If she wont keep her word on this, how do we know she will keep her word about Universal Healthcare?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:16 PM on 05/16/2008
- Oldchef I'm a Fan of Oldchef 2 fans permalink

She's not proposing Universal Health Care, she's proposing mandated universal Health Insurance. Big difference. And no, you can't trust her to keep her word on promises to voters, but you probably can count on her to fully support the efforts of corporate lobbyists.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:26 PM on 05/16/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

or international treaties?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 PM on 05/16/2008

Because the Insurance companies want the mandate. Think about it... once its a LAW to be forced to buy it, you are stuck. They can raise their prices or do whatever they want and you are screwed. It will be just like the car insurance industry. They'll make the good coverage rediculously priced and peddle the "minimum required" insurance plans that make them the most money.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:33 PM on 05/16/2008
- debwarot I'm a Fan of debwarot 10 fans permalink

I agree -- but, sadly, the Clintons have a track record of changing, altering, ignoring, bending and massaging and rules they don't agree with.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:21 PM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

Not to mention Bill love of Cigars....­.wink,wink

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:32 PM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

I have a good idea for the Obama camp. He should find HRC's stanchest supporter that is up for re-election this year. Then send out 1,000 emails asking them to send $10.00 to the campaign of said super.

Then watch what happens...­..

That is the POWER that is OBAMA

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:08 PM on 05/16/2008
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Think that might be seen as influence pedling.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:39 PM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

Really....­you are new to the political process.

http://www.answers.com/influence+peddling&r=677

Try another term. Like political capital.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:47 PM on 05/16/2008
- nohobear I'm a Fan of nohobear 7 fans permalink

With the Edwards endorsement and furor over Chimpy McFlightsuit's Knesset remarks, I feel like I had a two day vacation from Hillary, and it's been wonderful. I heartily recommend to everyone to take a break from Clinton fatigue.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:00 PM on 05/16/2008
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"Chimpy Mc Flightsuit"
That's a good one. ;^}

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:18 PM on 05/16/2008
- jazkiljok I'm a Fan of jazkiljok 3 fans permalink

party unity aside- either you control your party - or you don't. michigan and florida were warned not to move their dates back-- they were told of the consequences. they did it anyway- do you know why in the face of the most compelling reason not to move your vote dates that they did it anyway? cause by the time their primaries rolled around for them- their votes were symbolic anyway and the election was already over. they tossed the relevance of their votes in the toilet by their design and decision cause they didn't think it damn mattered- they just wanted a symbolic vote. if the michigan and florida voters cheered this decision..­. then what's the big deal? they made the decision NOT Obama.

i'm sure they were shocked that their votes would have been critical had they just kept it where it was at.

tough turkey- let them in now- expect every state to claim precedence and move their voting dates willy nilly.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:58 AM on 05/16/2008
- Sparklez I'm a Fan of Sparklez 4 fans permalink

Probably what we will come up with will not make everybody or anybody completely happy, which will mean that we did a good job," she said. "It is mighty unfortunate that at this point in our nominating process we are talking about people who did not abide by the process instead of talking about (beating Republican presidential candidate) John McCain."


^^^^Agreed

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:52 AM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

So lets go through the numbers for the Clintonites and point out why she will never win and why she has no power to control her fate.
Ok I lied, you can forget votes, forget delagates, forget swing states and forget Mich/FL. There is only one number that Obama has that HRC can not even come close to.

$100,000,000 plus and the ability to double that.

All of you Clintonites who think the Super Delegates care about anything more than that number are just newbies to politics.

HRC's comment "Hard Working Americans, White Americans" was the stupidest thing she could have ever had said. It gave the Supers cover to throw her under the bus, what they wanted to do because she had appointed herself the nominee for the last four years.

So get on board, she's not going to get anything from the Obama camp and will be lucky if she can keep her senate seat.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:52 AM on 05/16/2008
- XYZ I'm a Fan of XYZ 2 fans permalink

I couldn't have said it better myself.. It's all about the money, and downticket prospects for the supers, and they have taken stock, and are starting to decide in increasing numbers that Obama is better in that regards.

Even my republican friends are deciding Obama is better than McCain. Gosh I thought the republicans would have thrown Bush overboard, since they haven't now they will have to pay the price.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:12 PM on 05/16/2008

Not only can he raise a ton of money for himself. But if he sent out emails to help other Dems to his 1.5 million donors asking them for just $5 or $10 to go to those other Dems, they'd end up raising millions for the house/senate seats that they can take back or hold.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:31 PM on 05/16/2008
- McPander I'm a Fan of McPander 4 fans permalink

That is the point....H­is campaign has more money in the end than in the beginning.­..that is unheard of in modern politics..­.HRC is toast and needs to really back of and hope he does not hold a grudge....­he can destroy her

I remember the MSM saying they couldn't understand why he wasn't pressuring the Supers....­I have seen the light.....­he doesn't have to....he has taken control of the Party.....­Long live the King

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:38 PM on 05/16/2008
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Nobody is screaming about the GOP's solution to count the delegates as half votes.

Let's adopt that solution and have it apply down the road as well. Let's give Hillary

all the half votes she won in both Michigan and Florida and be done w/ the Bushit!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:51 AM on 05/16/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

no. there are consequences to your actions. i can only hope my fellow floridians remember who is responsible for this and not re-elect them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:05 PM on 05/16/2008
- laksa I'm a Fan of laksa 2 fans permalink

The DNC is beginning to look like Clinton. Changing rules and moving post to suit.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:48 AM on 05/16/2008
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The Florida GOP caused this early voting fiasco and there is no way that Democrats

should allow Florida's GOP to change the outcome of our election, ONCE AGAIN!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:46 AM on 05/16/2008
- Canaris I'm a Fan of Canaris 2 fans permalink

Actually, the Florida Democrats AND The Florida GOP caused this fiasco.

Trust me on this one, I live in Pensacola, and our Democratic state legislators were laughing about moving the primary date, right along with their GOP colleagues, when it came up for a vote.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:50 AM on 05/16/2008
- gwhizz I'm a Fan of gwhizz 20 fans permalink

I'm no fan of the FL Legislature, but you have homework to do. Look into what bill this primary move was tacked on to.

BTW, the DNC RULES everyone is bleating about specify FL that would lose HALF our delegates if we moved the primary, not all of them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:36 PM on 05/16/2008
- NYC07 I'm a Fan of NYC07 61 fans permalink

The Dems in the Florida Legislature all agreed with the Repubs, so the Fl Dems did this to themselves.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:52 AM on 05/16/2008
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That's a nice sentiment but how long are we Democrats going to simply allow Republicans to run rough shod all over us? shame on the Florida Democrats for not actively exposing the GOP scheme and beating them at their own game? I'm pretty sick of my party leadership pointing at the Republicans like a bunch of whiners after the fact. They should have fought like hell for their constituents. Instead they capitulated then complained.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:07 PM on 05/16/2008

FL Dems did this themselves. Stop getting your news from the Clintons.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:20 PM on 05/16/2008
- LeftLeaner I'm a Fan of LeftLeaner 24 fans permalink
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NOOOOOOO, they didn't.

You are talking with your emotions - not from a position of knowledge.

I am from Florida, and I can unequivocally state that the REPIG majority legilature moved up the dates.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:05 PM on 05/16/2008
- LeftLeaner I'm a Fan of LeftLeaner 24 fans permalink
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I never thought of it that way, but you are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Right!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:02 PM on 05/16/2008
- NYC07 I'm a Fan of NYC07 61 fans permalink

Ok Hillary it's time to face reality and graciously bow out and throw your support to "The Big "O" " You have fought a valiant fight and we salute you !!!! Now it's time to come back to New York and bring us home some more pork !!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:44 AM on 05/16/2008
- LouisPWu I'm a Fan of LouisPWu 4 fans permalink

What about abiding by the rules? Clinton's campaign seems to think rules don't apply to them. Both primaries were outside the rules. What's so difficult about reality?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:44 AM on 05/16/2008
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