Florida, Michigan cannot save Clinton

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NEDRA PICKLER | May 16, 2008 10:06 PM EST | AP

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Democratic presidential hopeful, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., walks from her campaign plane on the tarmac in Rapid City, South Dakota Thursday, May 15, 2008. (AP Photo/Elise Amendola)

WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign.

Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little interest in the former first lady's best-case scenario. Her position, part of a formidable comeback challenge, is that all the delegates be seated in accordance with their disputed primaries.

Even if they were, it wouldn't erase Barack Obama's growing lead in delegates.

The Democratic Party's Rules and Bylaws Committee, a 30-member panel charged with interpreting and enforcing party rules, is to meet May 31 to consider how to handle Michigan and Florida's 368 delegates _ both pledged delegates and superdelegates.

Last year, the panel imposed the harshest punishment it could render against the two states after they scheduled primaries in January, even though they were instructed not to vote until Feb. 5 or later. Michigan and Florida lost all their delegates to the national convention, and all the Democratic candidates agreed not to campaign in the two states, stripping them of all the influence they were trying to build by voting early.

But now there is agreement on all sides that at least some of the delegates should be restored in a gesture of party unity and respect to voters in two general election battlegrounds.

Clinton has been arguing for full reinstatement, which would boost her standing. She won both states, even though they didn't count toward the nomination and neither candidate campaigned in them. Obama even had his name pulled from Michigan's ballot.

The Associated Press interviewed a third of the panel members and several other Democrats involved in the negotiations and found widespread agreement that the states must be punished for stepping out of line. If not, many members say, other states will do the same thing in four years.

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"We certainly want to be fair to both candidates, and we want to be sure that we are fair to the 48 states who abided by the rules," said Democratic National Committee Secretary Alice Germond, a panel member unaligned with either candidate. "We don't want absolute chaos for 2012.

"We want to reach out to Michigan and Florida and seat some group of delegates in some manner, at least most of us do. These are two critical states for the general (election) and the voters of those states who were not the people who caused this awful conundrum to occur deserve our attention and deserve to be a part of our process and deserve to be at the convention," she said.

Just as Democrats across the country have been divided over which candidate would make the better nominee, most of the panel members also bring personal preferences to the table.

Many are long-standing party officials with close ties to the Clintons. The former first lady has 13 members publicly supporting her, including campaign advisers Harold Ickes and Tina Flournoy who are working to build her delegate count. Eight are openly aligned with Obama. Nine others are officially undeclared.

"We have to have delegates, and they have to be delegations that reflect the opinions of those two states," said former DNC Chairman Don Fowler, a committee member supporting Clinton. "How we get there is very different because everyone sees these questions of who it helps and who it hurts. I don't think the formulation has been found that will get around the piece at this point." But he said a solution is probably possible among the diverse interests.

Because Obama is in the lead for the nomination, his camp heads into the meeting in a position of strength. It is possible the Illinois senator could clinch the nomination by the time the panel meets if he picks up the pace of superdelegate endorsements in the coming weeks.

But Obama has such a lead that he may be able to afford to be generous and give Clinton most of the delegates. That would help put the issue behind them and help him build goodwill in Michigan and Florida heading into the November election.

Still, some think the fairest solution is to disregard the primary votes and split the delegations evenly between the two candidates. Yvonne Gates, a member of Nevada who said she is keeping her candidate preference private until after the meeting so her decision won't be questioned, said she isn't sure what position she would support at the meeting but that it must be fair to both candidates.

"My definition is a 50-50 split is something that is fair," she said. "It cannot be a situation where you give one candidate more votes than the other. In my opinion that wasn't an election when they didn't have a chance to get out and talk to the people of that community."

It's also possible that any vote that recognizes the Michigan and Florida results would legitimize their elections. Clinton has been arguing that she leads in the popular vote, but that's only when both states are included and it is very slim _ fewer than 5,000 votes out of 34 million cast.

Her accounting also doesn't include some caucus states that favored Obama and where the popular vote wasn't tallied. The measure of winning the nomination is not the popular vote but whoever can get the majority of delegates _ currently 2,026 are needed for the nomination although adding Michigan and Florida back in would change the threshold.

Obama climbed to 1,904 on Friday, according to The Associated Press count. Clinton has 1,719 delegates and is trying to use the popular vote argument to win over more.

Clinton encouraged supporters in an e-mail Friday to sign a message to the DNC asking them to count Michigan and Florida in the May 31 meeting. "I need you to remind them that in the Democratic Party, we count every vote," her e-mail said.

Fourteen of Clinton's Hispanic supporters in Congress sent a letter to the Rules and Bylaws Committee Friday arguing that disregarding the votes cast by Hispanics, 12 percent of the primary vote in Florida, could damage the nominee.

So far, Obama's campaign has not been giving direction publicly or privately to panel members. The Clinton campaign's official position has been full reinstatement, but her advisers acknowledge they are considering an idea before the panel to seat the delegates with half a vote each. Clinton campaign Chairman Terry McAuliffe said Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press" that they "certainly might" accept a compromise to seat half the delegates.

If their elections had been held according to party rules, Michigan and Florida would have allocated a total of 313 pledged delegates based on the outcome of the vote.

Using the results of the January elections with no votes for Obama from Michigan, Clinton would get 178 to Obama's 67, with the remainder in Michigan who voted "uncommitted" and giving her a 111-vote advantage. The remainder of the 368 delegates includes those representing the "uncommitted" vote in Michigan and John Edwards in Florida, along with superdelegates.

As of Friday, she was behind 185 delegates, so that would not catch her up even under that unlikely scenario.

The plans before the committee will be more generous to Obama. The Michigan Democratic Party has proposed giving 69 of its 128 delegates to Clinton and 59 to Obama, an advantage of 10 delegates for Clinton.

A proposal from Florida would halve its 185 delegates. From that, Clinton would get 52.5 and Obama 33.5, a 19-delegate advantage for Clinton.

"I think it's a reasonable solution to the problem that was created, and my hope is that we'll be able to get past this and move on," said Allan Katz, an Obama supporter who serves on the panel but won't be able to vote on any Florida solution because he is from the state.

The committee is not bound to select the proposals offered and has authority to reinstate any number of delegates and divide them in any way.

An open question is how to handle the other type of delegates each state lost _ the superdelegates who are party leaders not bound by the outcome of the vote and are free to support whatever candidate they personally choose. Michigan has 29 superdelegates, and Florida 26. A total of nine have declared for Obama, 15 for Clinton and the rest are undeclared.

___

On the Net:

Democratic National Committee: http://www.democrats.org

WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign. Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little ...
WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign. Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little ...
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- kellygrrrl I'm a Fan of kellygrrrl 643 fans permalink
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at this point, it's not even about "saving Clinton"
it is about the principle and the precedence that would be set.

If the DNC allows anyone to break the rules, then throw a tantrum and get their way, we are in deep trouble in elections to come.

It is a ope door to all Rethug governed states to throw a Dem election in the future.

I am truly sorry for the voters of MI and FLA, but I feel very strongly about the dangers ahead if we allow rules to be broken now.

further, I personally consider it Clinton's duty to stand up and state these truths!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:24 AM on 05/16/2008
- Freemind42 I'm a Fan of Freemind42 4 fans permalink

I am from Michigan and am a little tired of hearing Sen. Clinton preach about how she cares about my voice. There was no such sentiment at the beginning of this when my state party leaders hijacked the election from us. I think that if we are going to seat any (and none should be, they broke the rules) we must at least strip the superdelegates of their votes because it was them who put us all in this mess.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:22 AM on 05/16/2008
- TN60 I'm a Fan of TN60 155 fans permalink
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I am truly sorry that the voters in MI/FLA didn't get their say and I hope that they will not hold this against our Dem nominee.

Chairman Dean wanted (with his 50 state strategy) to have some small states have a say before the big states cut off the process, hence, a southern state SC and a western state NV. He is taking a lot of heat for this and it is unwarranted. Hillary went along with all the rules until she needed them and she and her surrogate's megaphone have been the devisive ones here.

The Democrats need MI/FLA and every other person in this country to defeat McBush in the fall.

Remember Obama's 2004 speech and his speech not about a UNITED States of America !!! We need everyone, and Freemind42, your vote will be very important in November. Just stick in there and make your voice heard loud and clear.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:00 PM on 05/16/2008
- Bagger I'm a Fan of Bagger 17 fans permalink
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So why isnt' she dropping out? Same question day number 28790. Come on Hillary. I want to like you again.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:21 AM on 05/16/2008

wake up. Its not over yet. There are still states that haven't voted. I realize you Obama supporters
have probably never voted before, but that's how it works.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:44 AM on 05/16/2008
- billrott I'm a Fan of billrott 9 fans permalink

Hillarysupporter, it is over. Puerto Rico and Kentucky won't change the outcome. You are right to argue that the primary is still going on, but the outcome is defined now.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:52 AM on 05/16/2008
- rmetz74 I'm a Fan of rmetz74 10 fans permalink

Actually, how it works is that 99% of the time, a nominee is chosen before all states have voted. That's how it worked with McCain, that's how it's worked in almost every other primary. Hillary cannot catch Obama, and she knows it - she's just staying in so people will keep giving her money to bail her out of the multi-million dollar hole she's in.

THAT's how it works.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 AM on 05/16/2008

The democratic party will not begin to heal until Hilliary concedes. If you as a Hilliary supporter are fighting for her and I as a Obama supporter is fighting for him...we are still fighting each other.

When there is no fight amongst ourselves..then the healing can begin.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 AM on 05/16/2008
- chlllfactor I'm a Fan of chlllfactor 130 fans permalink
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Sorry, but it truly is over. Senator Obama is only 17 pledged delegates way from securing the nomination. I am so looking forward to him givng his victory speech in OREGON!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:07 AM on 05/16/2008

oh thats right, Obama supporters are the hateful, condescending asshats...yeah right.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:11 AM on 05/16/2008
- HopeGirl I'm a Fan of HopeGirl 25 fans permalink

Only an exorcism can save her now.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:20 AM on 05/16/2008
- abby4ever I'm a Fan of abby4ever 268 fans permalink
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This is funny.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:38 AM on 05/16/2008
- loax I'm a Fan of loax 20 fans permalink

My congratulations to Senator Clinton on her run for the nominee for President. While I would not hvae voted for her, I do respect the fact that she was in this race to voice her concerns, and has done so. It is time for the democrats to rally behind the potential nominee, and defat the Republicans in the fall. They are they party of fear mongering nad hate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:05 AM on 05/16/2008

The reason this hasn't been settled already is Clinton is insisting she should get all 128 Michigan delegates. Not just the ones she won, she wants ALL of them, including all the "Uncommitted" ones. Her people in Michigan did everything they could to make sure that the selected delegates at the state convention were all going to vote for Clinton, so that she could get all 128 votes. That was how she planned on taking the nomination away. The rules committee isn't going to let that happen. At best she'll get the ones she won with her 55% of the vote, and the rest will be split some how among Obama and Edwards.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:03 AM on 05/16/2008
- colleen2 I'm a Fan of colleen2 5 fans permalink

"Not just the ones she won, she wants ALL of them"

'Won' is such an elastic verb in this case. She wants all 129 delegates in a state where, because he is a man of his word, Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot and this in an 'election' the MI Supreme court declared unconstitutional.
.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:20 AM on 05/16/2008

Glad to see the adults are in charge now. I know that a lot of people don't like to hear this but the rules are the rules. That is the essence of what makes dems different from repugs - dems play by the rules, we have honor and play fair. Repugs are cheaters- they do not care how they win they just want to win. I have seen many HRC supporters yell about how they will not vote for Obama if he is the nominee- if that is true then you were never going to support HRC in the first place.

Everyone really needs to settle down and understand that the person who wins this election will do so according to the rules and regulations that were agreed to and understood from the beginning. There will be no back room deals.

I am proud to be a Democrat the party of WE!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:03 AM on 05/16/2008
- johnnyjust I'm a Fan of johnnyjust 6 fans permalink

So after the vote and re-count in Florida (by the rules) you were good with Bush winning in 2000?

Wow, a satisfied liberal. Never thought I'd see the day....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:27 PM on 05/17/2008
- moda31 I'm a Fan of moda31 10 fans permalink

the members of the rules & bylaws committee had better brace themselves for some angry phone calls from camp clinton

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:56 AM on 05/16/2008

Yeah, and some angry calls from the Obama cult if they split the delegates according to how people voted.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:16 AM on 05/16/2008

You tards......the vote was meaningless. It was half an election. Without the canidates getting out there and campaigning the numbers mean nothing. ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING. You are dreaming that any decision to seat those delegates will be made while the issue is in doubt. These states will be seated only after Obama has officially won the nomination.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:30 AM on 05/16/2008

You seem to be blind as to what is going on here- Obama supporters have never wanted anything other than what is FAIR. Nothing else - no one will be upset if the committee follows the rules and regulations that were established from the beginning. Maybe the reason you HRC supporters fall back on this is because you are perfectly fine with cheating as long as it means your candidate wins.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:46 AM on 05/16/2008
- paganmist I'm a Fan of paganmist 67 fans permalink

"According to how people voted"

If they split the delegates according to how people voted, they'd have to KILL some of the delegates.

Don't you get it?

A crapton of people just stayed home because they were either told to not bother or told their vote wouldn't count. Would you take a day off of work to go vote, if you were told your vote wouldn't count?

A whole heck of a lot of people didn't even GET to vote. As a democrat and an american, YOU should be angry about the idea about seating the delegates according to a vote where one candidate ran unopposed and where people didn't vote because they were told there was no need to.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:24 AM on 05/16/2008

Obama already agreed to the 69/59 split favoring Clinton that Michigan and the DNC approved as a compromise. Clinton rejected it.

The only thing we'd reject is Clinton's insistance that she should get all 128 delegates. But even that won't matter here in a few days.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:25 AM on 05/16/2008
- billrott I'm a Fan of billrott 9 fans permalink

You do realize a court declared the Michigan vote unconstitutional and voided the results.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:54 AM on 05/16/2008
- moda31 I'm a Fan of moda31 10 fans permalink

since when have some members of the clinton camp let pesky little facts get in the way of their arguments? the fact that I and others recognize the facts, isn't going to stop them from calling whoever they can and accusing them of being a judas or whatever other line they've come up with recently.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:56 AM on 05/17/2008
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