Obama Or McCain: Who's Really Underestimating Iran?

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First Posted: 05-19-08 05:49 PM   |   Updated: 05-27-08 05:12 AM

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Before commencing his economic address in Chicago this morning, Sen. John McCain took a quick detour through Iran. Responding to remarks made in Oregon by Barack Obama on Sunday -- in which the likely Democratic nominee suggested that if Presidents Kennedy, Nixon and Reagan could talk to the titans of communism, perhaps the next president might want to talk to Tehran -- McCain once again thumped Obama's "inexperience and reckless judgment" for failing to accurately judge the threat posed by the Islamic Republic.

Leave aside for a moment logic which holds that the more powerful an enemy is, the more strenuously one should pretend not to notice it. By dinging Obama for underestimating Iranian power, McCain may have opened himself up to a debate he's in no position to win himself, according to experts and regional observers who say Iran's increased power in part due to the diplomatic freeze under the Bush administration -- the same policy McCain now favors on the campaign trail.

Rami Khouri, director of the Issam Fares Institute at the American University of Beirut, said recent events in Lebanon -- where Iranian-backed Hezbollah forces recently shut down the U.S.-backed government in Beirut without breaking a sweat -- are key to understanding America's current impotence in the face of growing Iranian influence.

"Lebanon is a great example of how this policy of [non-engagement] backfires," Khouri told The Huffington Post. "When the U.S. decides to rigorously ostracize Islamist movements that have some public or nationalist legitimacy, it's almost inevitably going to lose. ... The sad thing is that this posture is making the U.S. a more marginal player in many situations. More and more people around the world feel they can actively resist the United States. This generates a terrible backlash against the U.S. and really requires a serious re-think."

Vali Nasr, the Iran-born author of The Shia Revival and an expert on Middle Eastern affairs at the Council on Foreign Relations, says the problem even goes beyond the question of whether to talk to Iran or not about bilateral disputes. "It's not only that the United States has not engaged Iran, but that it has excluded Iran from a dialogue in every other arena in which it has an interest -- even in Afghanistan, where Iran is a neighbor," he said. "We haven't served ourselves well, because while Iran is clearly a stakeholder, they have no vested interest in cooperating. Consequently, not only hasn't it gotten us anything, it's made them more of a headache."

Not surprisingly, McCain national security adviser Max Boot sees it differently. Claiming there's nothing the United States can discuss with Iran "except the terms of our surrender," he nevertheless concedes that the recent Hezbollah offensive in Lebanon represents a "limited victory" for Iran. But Boot, who along with Nasr is member of the Council on Foreign Relations, rejects the notion that the Bush administration is at fault for Iran's newfound strength.

"Look, [Iran] has been fairly effective in terms of carving out a role for themselves by providing arms to Hamas and Hezbollah, and that's worked," he told The Huffington Post. "I don't really see what kind of leverage we could have to negotiate at this point. What would we give them? I think Sen. McCain is right when he says we have to turn up the heat, with diplomatic and economic action. Perhaps even military action if necessary."

Nasr, however, disputes Boot's claim that there are no potentially fruitful avenues of discussion. "The Bush administration's problem, and to an extent McCain's, is they think that there is a single silver bullet meeting to be had with the Iranians where you can come away with what you want. That's not the way it's going to happen. It's not the way it happened with China, or [in the Anbar Awakening] in Iraq, or any other conflict. The way it happens is with patience and strategy. And then we gradually and incrementally get things out of it."

In a perverse, self-defeating turn of events, Nasr says, America's refusal to talk to Iran may have left us ignorant about what its leaders might want from us. "The Washington feedback loop is just guessing about Iran," Nasr said, "because no one knows what they [Iran] want. The same things were said about the [Sunni] insurgent commanders in Iraq -- that you couldn't talk to them, they had American blood on their hands. And when General Petraeus adopted a more pragmatic strategy: Surprise, surprise! They did want something. The same thing happened in North Korea and Libya. Everywhere we've done this it's been a success."

Though Nasr doubts Iran will change its own aggressive stances in the last nine months of the Bush presidency, he believes a new administration will bring new opportunities to engage, if only on small matters at first. Similar opportunities may emerge after Iran holds its next presidential election in 2009. As the Washington Post reported last week, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates is now musing in public as to "whether there was a missed opportunity" for dialogue with Iran before Mamhoud Ahmadinejad's election in 2005. If that's true, than the real danger for the next president may not reside in underestimating Iran's power, but in underestimating its willingness to cut a deal.

Before commencing his economic address in Chicago this morning, Sen. John McCain took a quick detour through Iran. Responding to remarks made in Oregon by Barack Obama on Sunday -- in which the likely...
Before commencing his economic address in Chicago this morning, Sen. John McCain took a quick detour through Iran. Responding to remarks made in Oregon by Barack Obama on Sunday -- in which the likely...
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- Sundialsvc4 I'm a Fan of Sundialsvc4 147 fans permalink

Many Presidents gained their office after achieving top military command. One of them was Ulysses S. Grant. He said: "Generals don't start wars; politicians do."

What these people are seriously underestimating is ... war ... hell ... itself.

As Sting put it, "there's no such thing as a winnable war: it's a lie we don't believe anymore."

If you think that you have heard such talk before, you have. A lawfully-elected German politician of certain notoriety (and a toothbrush mustache) said very similar words, as did Japanese when talking about their "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere." Ask your grandfather what happened next.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:17 AM on 05/20/2008

If Bush attacks Iran, it would be treasonous for Congress NOT to impeach him! We should save the trouble and do the impeachment thing NOW!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:14 AM on 05/20/2008

Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.
It's amazing to think the Iranian leader actually wants to talk with our government. To refuse to talk sounds so childish. What is there to loose? Talking with them does not limit our ability to bomb them as McCain and Bush so eagerly want to do. I have trouble understanding it.

Bush says something like, if we talk to them we give them legitimacy. He is the president of the Iranian government. He's legitimate. Same thing when it comes to Hamas. We wanted them to have a democracy and we got it. The people voted Hamas. This makes Hamas legitimate. To support and strengthen democracy, we need to recognize it first. Democracy in the Middle East will not spread if the people feel it's tainted by the will of the United States. If we dictate who their leaders should be, then how does this make democracy?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:12 AM on 05/20/2008

What an excellent point. We want them to elect their own leaders, as long as we can choose them... yeah we're a real beacon of light over here

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:04 AM on 05/20/2008

The Jerusalem Post is reporting today that Bush is planning to attack Iran before his term ends. Apparently, it was discussed when he was in Israel last week and the only thing standing in his way is Sec Rice and Gates, who are opposed to it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:07 AM on 05/20/2008
- deminmo I'm a Fan of deminmo 16 fans permalink

oldrwsr,
Gates and Rice just don't want to burn bridges. They have
no jobs with the new administration. Gates also said a couple
of weeks ago that we could win with the Air Force and Navy. He is
a flip-flopper. The plans for this attack have been under way
since the report that came out in 2003, did not support Bush
rehtoric for war. Bush could maintain the office of President
for as long as the "threat" continues. Now that, is scary!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:06 PM on 05/20/2008

Those who would attack Iran are thieves and murderers who would steal Iran's oil.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:45 AM on 05/20/2008
- lobear00 I'm a Fan of lobear00 27 fans permalink

The same was "True of Iraq. Cheny and Bush "Lied, and they both did it by design.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:30 AM on 05/20/2008

THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS THAT WE HAVE WITH IRAN THAT CANNOT BE SETTLED AT A NEGOTIATING TABLE.

They are, and should be a natural ally of the USA, instead we do nothing but threaten and scare them at every turn. Why is this good for us?

People seem to forget that our CIA deposed their democratically elected leader in 1953 and replaced him with the Shah. 25 years later, they got rid of the Shah and held our people hostage for 444 days. That was a truly awful thing to do, but, come on, they didn't murder anyone. Compared to what we did to them, that was a mild response.

Then we supported Saddam Hussien when he launched a land/oil grab against them in the 1980's, complete with Donald Rumsfeld shaking the dictators hand and offering deadly materials to use against the Iranians. And why did we side with the ruthless aggressor dictator against Iran?

Oh yeah, we didn't like them for taking our people hostage!
(and we wanted to control the Straights of Hormuz).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:28 AM on 05/20/2008

part 2

I understand that Ahmadinejad has said some terrible things about the state of Israel, and has even tried to deny the holocaust, yet many Jews live in Iran and are afforded full rights of citizenship, and anti-semitism has never been a part of Iranian culture, unlike in Europe and Russia.

Certainly if the Israeli / Palestinian issue were resolved equitably, Iran and 22 Arab states would no longer have a problem with Israel - they have all said as much. But instead of doing the hard work to make that happen, Bush and CO. decide to virtually ignore this problem, and then only offer a half-assed solution that doesn't even address the concerns the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people!

So why do we continue to demonize and scare the Iranians? What would be so terrible in reaching understanding and accommodations with them, getting them to shut down their possible nuclear program as a result of trust and common purpose?

While I certainly would not want to live in a theocracy, that does not mean others should not, and if the people of Iran don't want to live in a theocracy, it is for them to decide how they want to live in their own country.

We need to move away from the warmongering, and field the best, largest army of diplomats we can muster and sit down and make the deal already, and start acting like the super power that we are!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:27 AM on 05/20/2008

I admire your response to this issue. I once read a quote that I think brings something to think about.
"They are talking about peace as a distant goal, as an end we seek, but one day we must come to see that peace is not merely a distant goad we seek, but that it is a means by which we arrive at that goal. We must pursue peaceful ends through peaceful means. All of this is saying that, in the final analysis means and ends must cohere because the end is preexistent in the means and ultimately, destructive means cannot bring about constructive ends."-Martin Luther King, Christmas Eve 1967
One cannot bring peace at the point of a gun, you have to talk.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:42 AM on 05/20/2008
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This is a fabulous picture that just inspires so much hope. It's a picture of a woman from Montana who has a lifetime of experiences written in her face who looks like she still has hope in the ideals of America.

http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/3/Obama_Montana.jpg

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:23 AM on 05/20/2008
    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:12 AM on 05/20/2008
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This is totally ridiculous. It deserves no more argument.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:25 AM on 05/20/2008
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I'm going to start a pool. How lies are trolls going to regurgitate from the right wing talking points on this thread?

I estimate 127.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:54 AM on 05/20/2008
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One more thing on this issue McBush attacked Obama on Iran yesterday for only one reason. McCorrupt wanted to divert attention from his corrupt campaign which is run and wholly owned by Washington Lobbyists. McLobbyist fired one lobbyist who made millions of dollars trying to do damage control for the Saudis right after 9/11 to only hire another lobbyist who was promoting who the Burmese leaders were misunderstood around the world. It is sickening how tied in McSame is with these people profiting of off the worlds misery.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:48 AM on 05/20/2008
- RobtBrock I'm a Fan of RobtBrock 6 fans permalink

McCain, Obama, and The American People are uninformed about the history and the nature of Iran. This pitiful election will only provide more ignorance about this country.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:43 AM on 05/20/2008
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I understand your point but not negotiating with Iran just adds to this ignorance. Obama has many excellent foreign policy experts like Susan Rice who do understand the middle east. That's why Obama is the only candidate with a reasonable approach towards Iran. McBush subscribes to not educating himself about the history of Iran except the military history.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:08 AM on 05/20/2008
- AurigaRa I'm a Fan of AurigaRa 27 fans permalink

Now, HOW many nations have nuclear weapons?

Now, HOW many nuclear weapons does Iran have?????

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:38 AM on 05/20/2008
- vippy I'm a Fan of vippy 77 fans permalink

Iran wants to produce energy for the Europeans since the Russians are not reliable. Iran has dropped the dollar much like Saddam did and you kow what that brought him. BushCo is now
blaming the mess on bad intel when he refused to listen to Scott Ritter and Hans Blix and the CIA.
Now the runup to another war is the very same as was with Iraq and people are falling for it
all over again. Bush committed genocide in Iraq and for what, so he and his buddies get rich on
oil. Iran has oil, ergo they have to have war. Iran was very supportive the days after 9/11. They
treated our prisoners very well though the press had them come out and lie and then got caught
because the Iranians had them on tape. Please, don't fall for it all over again. Cannot wait for
this criminal enterprise to come to an end. But that means getting rid of our cowardly and enabling
senate and congress too!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:48 AM on 05/20/2008
- SWEETPB307 I'm a Fan of SWEETPB307 5 fans permalink

Question?
Wouldn't precondition which is.... In logic a precondition is a condition that has to be met before a main argument can have any value.

vs

Preparation...The condition of being made ready beforehand.

Wouldn't preparation be more wise since, precondition, put you on the edge of what Bush/McCain says is "naïve, wishful thinking." and or appeasement?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:18 AM on 05/20/2008
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Ir's also ridiculous that we are so weak that we are deferring our responsibility as the strongest nation on the planet to the European Union who is negotiating with Iran to stop their nuclear program. Frankly the EU has not gotten that far because it does not have the military will or capacity to back up it's negotiations. If we are the stalwart of ally we say we are why are we shurcking our responsibilities.

Bush has turned our whole foreign policy upside down. We used to have a pragmatic foreign policy where we acted like adults. Cowboy diplomacy is actually too week a word to describe our current approaches around the world it is more like middle school bully diplomacy. Right now our foreign policy is based on looking tough to achieve domestic political gains not achieving our objectives around the world. McBush would continue Bush's failed policies just for political gain rather than making us safe. Never forget that 9/11 happened on Bush's what and we still have not brought Bin Laden and Al Qaeda to justice because without the boogie men the Rethuglicans enable and create they would lose political power forever.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:43 AM on 05/20/2008
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Republicans never justify their positions based on the facts of the argument but on the hyporbolic rhetoric of other world leaders and worse responding in kind. Sure the Iran president says some crazy things but Bush and McCain have said crazy things about Iran. I mean singing Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran what kind of elementary school mentality is that? Is that anymore absurd that saying Israel is a stinking corpse?

Khrushchev said in a speech at the UN that "we will bury you". But JFK was man enough not to take the bait and say something like we will obliterate the USSR. When have we lowered our standards so much in foreign policy that we resort to name calling like dictators? Bush and McCain have bully mentalities that means they like to talk tough but don't have the political courage to take on the real issues.

Sure negotiations with Iran needs to start at lower levels but to expect them to meet all our goals before we talk with them is real naive. If the proper preparations are made, I see no problem with Obama meeting Ahmadinejad at some neutral location like JFK did with Khrushchev in Vienna. McCain would not be so afraid of meeting with Iranian leaders if we still had our moral standing around the world. McCain is only proving that he is an adolescent like Bush.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:45 AM on 05/20/2008
- RoseBlue I'm a Fan of RoseBlue 11 fans permalink

Excellent post

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:53 AM on 05/20/2008

I applaud your post. Clearly your family tree has branches in it and you have 2 distinct eyebrows (as opposed to one that spans both eyes).

To equate discussion with appeasement is stupid. The ignored Iraq study commission, and common sense, say we should talk with all countries in the region.

I'll tell you what IS appeasement - the bribing of the militias in Iraq, like Sadr. Why doesn't that get more talk? The sham that the escalation (surge) worked is exposed by the fact that the temporary reduction in violence had nothing to do with more US troops and everything to do with our bribing and easing up on the militias.

I think McCain is entering his second childhood - and yes, that is an age comment. He's lost his tenuous grip on reality. "We're winning in Iraq" - according to him. Yeah, KBR, Haliburton, Blackwater,... they are indeed doing fine.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:46 AM on 05/20/2008
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Childlike regression is very common in old age. My dad is 81 and I saw him go through a huge transformation in personality from age 70 to now. Before my dad got older he was always very courteous, kind and level headed, just true gentleman. Now he has the proverbial good days and bad days. Some days he can be congenial and rational. Other days he can be combative and illogical. I think McCain has gone through this transition, especially looking how he campaign in 2000 compared to 2008.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:15 AM on 05/20/2008
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