Jim Webb Speaks Out On Race, Addresses Grievances Of White America

It's refreshing when someone makes the effort to advance the discussion of this year's election beyond debating a black/white divide. So when that someone is oft-mentioned potential Democratic running mate Jim Webb, it's worth taking note.

Webb appeared on Morning Joe today to speak about his newest book, A Time to Fight: Reclaiming a Fair and Just America, and to dodge questions about whether he would accept a spot on Barack Obama's presidential ticket. But since the Kentucky primary had just provided pundits with fodder to discuss the ever-popular "Does Obama have a working whites problem?" Webb weighed in on the election results and his Scots-Irish heritage.

The Virginia senator suggested that race is indeed a factor in Obama's poor performance among white voters along the east of the country, saying, "we shouldn't be surprised by the way they're voting now." But he bristled at what he suggested is a simplistic interpretation of the issue. "When I hear people say this is racism, my back gets up a little bit, because that's my cultural group."

Webb sought to explain what motivates Scots-Irish Americans. First, says Webb, it's not a generic race or geographic label, but rather "a very powerful cultural group that's always underestimated, and it's not always in the Appalachian mountains." And the issue is not Obama himself, who Webb thinks is "saying a lot of good things that will appeal to this cultural group in time."

Rather, Webb -- whose previous book Born Fighting explores the effect of Scots-Irish culture on America's formation -- argued that Scots-Irish voters' unwillingness to support Obama is less about the candidate himself, than about a sense of injustice among the community manifested by the government assistance afforded to minorities in the post-Civil Rights Era:

This isn't Selma, 1965. This is a result of how affirmative action, which was basically a justifiable concept when it applied to African Americans, expanded to every single ethnic group in America that was not white, and these were the people who had not received benefits and were not getting anything out of it. And they're basically saying let's pay attention to what has happened to this cultural group in terms of opportunities.

Webb even drew a parallel between this bloc and African Americans, suggesting that their grievances with and needs from the federal government are remarkably similar.

Black America and Scots-Irish America are like tortured siblings. They both have long history and they both missed the boat when it came to the larger benefits that a lot of other people were able to receive. There's a saying in the Appalachian mountains that they say to one another, and it's, "if you're poor and white, you're out of sight." ...

If this cultural group could get at the same table as black America you could rechange populist American politics. Because they have so much in common in terms of what they need out of government.

A powerful coalition indeed. If only there were two politicians who understood these cultures, and had the desire and capacity to unite them for a common cause...

[WATCH -- race discussion starts at 4:30]

Comments

[America08]

As an African-American I like what Jim Webb is saying. I've seen so much racism towards Blacks in my lifetime. This election shows how "some" White people truly feel about Blacks and it is very disheartening. These are the same people we entrusted to hire us, give us a loan at the bank, provide a equal justice system. With all of this hiden racism do you really think we were treated fairly? However, that does not mean we should overcompensate with dealing with these problems. It isn't fair to the other races. Afirmative Action is needed, not for blacks only but for ANYONE who is disadvantaged. Just because you are Black doesn't mean you deserve a break, particularly when there are others who are more disadvantaged.

The reason why I think Jim Webb might be a good fit is because he, with Obama, can help bridge the gap between these group. Don't do away with Affirmative Action, we just need to tweek it to benefit people who are disadvantage (regardless of race or gender). It should also cover inequaties in corportate American.

[sky2blue]

Women and other racial minorities make use of affirmative action, too. It isn't just for black people.

[ranchobob]

It is plain to me that the focus on racial problems is a distraction from the real problem of class war that has been here since day 1.
Day 1, when power was shifted from the off-shore English oligarchy to the on-shore American oligarchy.
The Scott-Irish dumping by Britain was about class.
While the economically disadvantaged squabble about who is getting more crumbs, the oligarchs
laugh and say "Let them watch Survivor"

This leaves out the question of the ineffable backwardness of the South. That, I just don't get.

[williamg]

"It is plain to me that the focus on racial problems is a distraction from the real problem of class war."

Exactly!

[BigBen]

If only .....you say. Look at the election results in the rust belt for your answer.80% Hillary.

[Peg]

over 90% AA vote for Obama.

What answer doest that result give?

[tonycd]

Exactly. The reason the Rethuglicans screech so loudly against "class warfare" is because they want us not to notice that's exactly what they're waging.

[Krikkit]

There's more divides than just North/South. The Appalachian split is also a historical geographic split that's been ignored because "poor people" don't count typically. Don't let the failure of our education system in addressing this historic fact blind you to its significance. As an Appalachian and well schooled in our history, I can assure you that Webb's analysis is spot on.

[Josiwe]

It's related to the ineffable self-absorption of the North.

How can you talk about racial distraction and then fall blindly back on "Southerners are racist rednecks!" ???

Here's the deal with the differences between North and South, oversimplified perhaps, but still more accurate than your automatic aspersions.

Essentially, in the south there's a hard core of about 5% who cling to the old ways and are truly, seriously, unapologetically racist. There's maybe another 10% who are what I like to call "mild racists". These people don't actively hate other races; they unconsciously assume a superior/inferior dynamic. They don't begrudge blacks success - they just don't think they should get "above their station".

In the north, you have something more like 25-30% of these mild racists, and far fewer of the overt hatemongers. The rich, white, introverted suburbs like to pretend they are enlightened liberals/p­rogressive­s, but when they have to go into the big city, it's the blacks they keep a wary eye on. They justify it to themselves by thinking "well, it's only urban blacks but by god i'm still crossing the street".

The South, because of a long tradition of propaganda dating back to before the Civil War, and that larger 5%, has more visibility than the North in terms of racism and bigotry. But it is disingenous, hypocritical, and small minded to indict the entire region when in reality blacks probably have a harder time dealing with "soft" and subtle racism in the North.

[tom928]

OBAMA / WEBB '08

[Pema]

Jim Webb for VP!!!!

[EspritDeVoltaire]

That's an interesting title for his book, Born Fighting, as it it is the Scotch-Irish dueling culture which is the root of the violence obsessed culture of the United States.

[calluna]

Scots-Irish were more brawlers than duelers. Bare knuckles, rather the Code Duello.

Dueling was more an affectation of the European and English upper classes beginning in the Renaissance, transported here around 1621.

But yes, the concept of honor and the use of violence to avenge it, was strong in the S-I community.

[phoebusapollo]

No, it's the revolution and the batshit crazy second amendment (or interpretation of)

[JohnTalbutt]

I am Scotch-Irish and raised around them but never picked up on dueling as part of the heritage. Most of them were farmers (peasants in other peoples eyes) and an occasional Presbyterian minister. Do you have a source?

[tonycd]

Well, that certainly was ignorant. Thank you.

[spiffarino]

Scotch is a drink. Scots are people. Please get it right.

[adavis08]

I agree with Jim Webb. These two socioeconomc groups are very similar and have the same problems. They were divided before, during and after the civil war because they didn't own land or slaves. Some had to compete with freed slaves for sharecroping. Later they became jealous of the strides that blacks seemed to be making, while they were left behind. In some ways Affirmative Action was the culprit. Affirmative Action shouldn't be race based it should be socioeconomic based then it would be fair. Obama can reach these people but he will have to devote time to letting them hear his message. His message for the poor serves them well if they'd only listen.

[williamg]

I think they feel that Affirmative action left them behind. I think they absolutely agree with affirmative action provided they have a seat at the table.

[Krikkit]

It takes time, and education!!!

Obama's stance on providing funding for higher education will eventually reach even the most insular members of Appalachia. There isn't enough time to sway them this time, but they will still benefit from his actions as President.

Isn't it good to finally have someone contending for the office that keeps the big picture in mind? I am proud to be living in these times!

[randyjet]

I am in favor of affirmative action and equal pay for equal work, but there are extreme problems with how it is applied. For example, when I was trying to get a job as an airline pilot, I was refused because I was white and male while those with FAR less qualifications were hired soley because they were female or black. I had an Airline Transport Pilot license, with a jet type rating while women who had FAR less were hired over me. One was our junior flight instructor who did not even have an ATP, nor a jet type rating, but she was female. Our chief pilot was a laid off US Airways pilot who couldn't even get an interview with United. I got one because I was already employed as a mechanic,but I was not hired since I did not meet their requirements as they said. A black guy in our shop had far less qualifications than I did, yet he was hired too. THAT is wrong folks. I have no problem if these folks had similar qualifications and experience, and they decided to give them the edge. But to do such blatant racist and sexist discrimination is way out of line.

[williamg]

I agree with you. I have problems with race-based affirmative action and with quotas.

[john85msy]

If what you are saying is true then how come you did not finish the story with a pending lawsuit. If you know for sure......­.......loo­k its not helpful to fabricate a story like that given the sensitivity of race.

[NABNYC]

Randyjet: I'm white and female, and 12 reams of lined paper wouldn't provide enough space for me to list every man I've known who's received special treatment and unwarranted hiring, opportunity, and promotions simply because they are white men. Think about that for a minute. I'm a professional, and until the mid 1980s the only people allowed into my profession were white men, with a few tokens here and there. That means that the white men eliminated based on gender and race.

You'd think things would have changed since the professional schools opened up, but not so much. In my profession women are isolated, excluded, forced into narrow fields with low pay and the dirtiest work. The top jobs remain white male.

Most white men in this country have suffered terrible economic losses in the past 30 years because of Republican policies. They've lost pensions, healthcare, vacation and holiday and sick days off, lost the 40-hour week, given stupid titles and lost overtime, housing, food, gas has increased to the point that they barely make it every week. But the reason for the economic devastation is not that some black dude got hired as a pilot. It's that the Republicans have been at war with the people of this country. White male Republicans, for the most part. So the black affirmative action issue is mostly a diversion to keep people from seeing that we're all getting screwed by about 5% of the people in this country who run everything.

[randyjet]

I know full well the reason for United policy since they refused to hire black pilots at all for a long time no matter how well qualified they were. I was NOT blaming anything on black pilots being hired or women pilots. ALL I was saying is that affirmative action was being wrongly implemented by doing what had been done to blacks and women to white males who had no say in the policies to begin with.
The attitude among liberals is let's do to white guys what was done to minorities and women. That is as wrong as the original discrimination, and if you do not protest against that kind of thing, you are as bad as the old racists. That is NOT the way to getting support for taking on the real culprits. Saying that an unqualified pilot should be hired over me because of race or sex is just as bad as the old way.
By the way, when I was young, I DID protest against segregation and for civil rights and even got to hear Dr. King in person. I expected similar support for me.

[Nardwilly]

As a Black man I completely agree that Affirmtive Action has been misused. It has often been used by managers to keep from telling employees the minoritry was better than you. I understood it to meean the organization would take an affirmtyive action to recruit, hire, an promote the under represented. The society had so long discriminated that a simple statement of non discrimination was not enough to convince minorities to apply.

I accept we can move past it if we are open with each other and view all as part of America. There are still negative legacies of slavery that the entire society should work to eliminate. I believe it shows up in the descendants of slaves as sociological pathologies.

[maxwellinformed]

I've never see a black or female pilot in my life.

[brooklyncitizen]

Ditto....I fly for work often and truly i ahve NEVER seen a black pilot and once I saw a white female pilot.

I don't know how "truthful" this post is frankly; it perpetuates the myth that unqualified minorities are (apparently flying planes...g­asp!) in positions that they have not earned. The bottomline is that the reverse is true: too often the less qualified white person gets the promotion before you do; or is treated as if they have more hierarchy .Often whites make assumptions when they come across a black person that is in a position of power...th­ere is discomfort, denial, and then conflict. One is perceived as uppity and it is frankly tiresome.

[uheardme]

The conversation around AA is filled with urban legend, myths, innuendo, and lies. A lot whites are just underachievers and they need to deal with that.

[HumeSkeptic]

Nice try, Mr. Webb. It's racism.

[kellygrrrl]

exactly! I am getting so sick of this tip-toeing on eggshells around these isolated regional pockets of group-think from The Land that TIme Fogot

[Roshi98]

OK, you've identified "it" as racism...n­ow what? The problem with your dismissive critique is that you've simply shut out any possibility of advancing the conversation.

The point Webb is making is that there is a defensiveness on the part of some white Americans, particularly in the South and midwest, who when they see the clamor on the part of people to decry racism are only acknowledging part of the picture - poor whites have problems, too. The issue of racism in this country is deep and pervasive and must be addressed with maturity AND a universal recognition that MANY people struggle and that we can deal with the variety of issues together. It's not going to be Shangri-la and Kumbaya, but what meaningful and transformative conversations ever are?

[williamg]

Come on Hume, that is an oversimplification of the situation. I don't think this is built out of some sort of feeling of supremacy, because I don't think they feel that their cultural group is better than the next cultural group of people, but more a sense of competition in which they are watching other groups get advantages that they themselves aren't privy to.

[Foohog]

Why?

[antaeus]

Nice lack of subtlety. The same percentage are threatening a McCain vote now who actually voted for Bush in 2004. It's elitism.

[maxwellinformed]

I would like to know from the women of the HuffPo blogosphere, Do you think the VP HAS TO BE a woman?

[kellygrrrl]

NO!!!!

the VP has to be the Best Human possible!!!!!

Feminism is NOT about "special treatment" - it is about Equality. All candidates should be viewed without gender or color -- but that's just my opinion.

[spiffarino]

Such crazy talk. This is America!

:D

[uheardme]

Feminism is NOT about "special treatment" - it is about Equality.

Not according to Erica Jong, Gloria Steinem, and Hillary Clinton.

[Teritt]

Nope

[calluna]

Unless it's Clinton, which it probably wont be, I don't see how it could be a woman. What would that get him? Another woman wouldn't necessarily bring over Clinton supporters, who he needs, and it would lose him some votes among people who are unsure about a female president in general.

I was at a lecture with Cokie Roberts a couple weeks ago, and she said he'd probably be looking for a white guy from a swing state, preferably one that owned a gun. Webb fits that description, but I still don't think he really wants in, and there are plenty of politicians out that who fit that bill.

[vonniewit]

No - the VP needs to be a white male. The fact is that America may not be ready for a minority AND female on one ticket. However, the Obama administration will demostrate that Dems are capable of appointing females to high profile positions. I am also excited about Native Americans and other groups being included in the Obama administration.

[uheardme]

Whites on this blog have been saying this BS for months now. "America's not ready for this or that", yet they claim America is colorblind or racism is due to AA. You people need to grow up. You sound like a Clintonite. You ARE a Clintonite.

[sparafucilli]

For an interesting perspective on the Scots-Irish in America please visit Joe Bageant:
http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2005/01/drink_pray_figh.html

[cacimar]

Jim Webb is ignorant of the well known fact that the group that benefitted most from affirmative action is white women. Also, the history of attitudes towards Blacks didn't start with affirmative action. Poor whites were mad at Blacks when they were integrated, they were mad when they were freed as slaves - they were even mad at the competition of the owned slaves. So, when will they be satisfied?

[knosiswar]

When you quit placing them in the same group of people that actually owned slaves. And NEWS FLASH, slavery has been abolished. Racism and Prejudice are now a TWO WAY STREET. So as long as your going to be pissed off about the past, others will continue to want you to get on.

[phoebusapollo]

I'd still say most of the traffic is going one way. You wouldn't find too many blacks talking like the West Virginians- or getting away with it.

[TovSquirrel]

Well put!

[TXFreedomFighter]

By its definition and application, racism is not a two way street. Minority groups have not been in a position to systematically oppress the majority.

[JohnTalbutt]

Man, anyone could come down from another planet with no knowledge of history whatsoever and see that racism is alive and well..

What you are saying is that because the reasons for it are in the past, we should ignore its manifestations now.

[uheardme]

Well get on, then. And stop whining about AA.

[williamg]

I encourage you to take a trip into Appalachia yourself and see the conditions they are living in. Having grown up in NYC (South Bronx) I was floored by the conditions people are living in. As a person who has seen poverty up close having lived in it, I will be the first to tell you that the conditions they are living in - in Applachia - is unbelievable.

[antaeus]

"When will they be satisfied?" Is there a foreseeable terminus?

As in, when Senator Obama is president, all blacks can finally be satisfied?

[MrZrule]

Might be time to rent "Do the Right Thing", a Spike Lee joint

[orianna]

I've moved to Appalachia from the west a couple of years ago and am quite stunned at some of the thinking. I can agree with what Webb proposes as an explanation for the ban on Obama from this group who stand to benefit the most from him.

But I also see a group that is really ignorant and closed down from other views and options. They don't trust Obama's message. Hope isn't what they can rely upon. Hardship and either independence or welfare is their division.

Those who are independent obviously go for republican views because they look down on those who get welfare, who would be typically pro-democrat (and likely they least educated and most racial). Some progressives in the cities are likely also democrat..­. but not enough to offset the independent-minded (pro-GOP) or downtrodden (who could no way grasp a black man rising to a position better than them).

Obama will gain with them in time, because his message is the best for this country (unless you are a lobbyist, or corporate snakes). And if he ever really wins them over, they'll stand behind him more solidly then any other group.... let's hope we have the time.... because we need to keep the devil advocate out of the white house.

[Philly4Obama]

Perhaps this is exactly why Webb would make an interesting VP. Can he, in fact, be the Obama of the Scotts-Irish? The person they look toward to help them finally get a voice? Maybe he can be a bridge to bring these less educated, but highly concerned, citizens into the Obama movement. Clearly, arriving at a vision of hope is not the same path for everyone.

[Sabreen60]

Well before he is looked at as a possible VP, he needs to be truthful about many of the people in Appalachia. If they came out of the exit polls and about 25% actually admitted to being racist, then that's a problem. And Webb needs to address that and not try to cover it up or make it out to be something else.

[Lauren1959]

I'm starting to think he might make a good VP

[juancp82]

Unfortunately, Jim Webb is as new to national politics as Barack, and even more unknown.
To select him would strengthen the "inexperience" fallacy that is touted by the Republicans and Mrs. Clinton.
It would appear that a Joe Biden or Chris Dodd is what is called for here, even, perhaps a moderate and apostate Republican.
Anyone over fifty would do, anyone except that woman.

[Sumocat]

That's not entirely accurate. Webb is serving his first term as a national elected official, but his experience in national government dates back to 1977 when he worked for the House Committee on Veterans Affairs. He later served as Assistant Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs and then Secretary of the Navy in the Reagan administration. He resigned in 1988 because he refused to reduce the size of the Navy, which is ironic given how we credit Reagan for vastly increasing military spending.

[waltontynerross]

Unknown is good; being an 'outsider' is like gold in this election cycle. Just ask Hillary. And, at the same time, Webb is no lightweight on experience.

[JohnTalbutt]

All good men, but I think Secretary of the Navy, his defeat of an incumbent Republican and the strategic importance of Virginia in the G.E., give the edge to Jim.

[calluna]

I'm sure it would be offered, but I'd be shocked if he accepted it. From what I've seen of him, I don't think he wants to be president in the future, and I think that as a person of action, he's much better off in the Senate, where he can actually have a hand in lawmaking, rather than as a bench-warmer for the next 8 years. Thanks to this foul administration, the next couple VPs are really going to have to stay below the radar.

Plus, he's my senator, and I don't want to see him go so soon.

[Philly4Obama]

continuati­on...

So, I believe there is an opportunity here to unite these interests, these segments of society that have been hurt in history.

This dialogue can be conducted carefully as one meant to unite rather than divide.

If we could look at the common plight of our ancestors, which has lead to the kinds of division existing in our country, I believe we could all feel a sense of being disenfranchised by power. The question is WHAT WILL WE DO WITH THAT NOTION?

Will we use it to foment anger and rebellion in ourselves, or will we use it to find a new form of Populism as Jim Webb suggests?

If we choose the latter, we have a historic opportunity to start a dialogue among racial segments that are in the same boat when it comes to economics, uniting these groups more fully under the banner of similar goals.

I think the Democratic party already has this message, but has been unable to motivate a very large segment of RED STATES TO VOTE IN THEIR ECONOMIC INTEREST because it has not united the cultures and the histories correctly.

Can Obama and Webb start a movement to UNITE DISENFRANCHISED PEOPLE OF VARIOUS RACES AND CULTURES under one populist banner? What impact would that have on the geography of Red and Blue States?

Can you imagine the opportunity at hand when it comes to furthering equality in this Country?

[ometep]

Jim Webb is an impressive guy. Would love to see him and Obama traveling W. Virginia. Kentucky, Ohio, and Penn. together, talking the issues, shining a light on the disenfranchisement of African American and working-class whites alike; helping folks see that we can do more to dismantle our American plutocracy by pulling together. Could be transformative like when RFK toured Appalachia­..