Ickes At The Alamo: Clinton's Delegate Counter Warns Of Defections At DNC Meeting

The major dispute over the Florida and Michigan delegations to the Democratic convention in Denver has now boiled down to Hillary Clinton's demand for full seating with no sanctions, and an alternative proposal, likely to be backed by Obama, to seat the delegations with either half a vote granted to each delegate, or to cut each delegation in half.

The Clinton proposal -- which now faces tough, if not insurmountable, odds at the Saturday, May 31 meeting of the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) - would give the New York Senator 55 more delegates than would go to Obama.

The alternative of either halved votes or halved delegations would net Clinton only 20 or so delegates, depending on the details. Obama could afford to concede a 20-plus delegate gain to Clinton without endangering his overall delegate advantage.

Harold Ickes, Clinton's chief delegate hunter, warned that there may be some defections among the 13 RBC members who have endorsed Hillary. If Ickes and his allies cannot hold all their troops in line, a motion before the RBC to seat all 210 Florida and 156 Michigan delegates with a full vote each would face certain defeat.

If defeated at the RBC on Saturday, the Clinton forces are expected to file an appeal to the Democratic convention credentials committee and possibly, failing that, to the full convention.

One of the publicly unstated reasons that Clinton is remaining in the race is to be positioned to step in immediately in the increasingly unlikely event that damaging new material emerges about Obama. In such an event, retaining the right to force pre-nomination fights over credentials becomes crucial to a delaying strategy to allow any conceivable controversy to gain momentum.

Clinton won the January primaries in Florida and Michigan, but the national party has stripped the two states of all delegates in punishment for holding primaries before February 5 in violation of party rules.

On the RBC, there are a total of 28 voting members, along with two co-chairs who can vote only in the event of a tie. To win, then, Clinton needs at least 15 votes, or, if both co-chairs cast ballots, 16 votes.

Those numbers appear increasingly hard to reach, especially after Democratic National Committee lawyers issued a ruling earlier this week that the RBC does not have the power to fully reinstate the two disputed delegations. The Clinton forces contend that the DNC ruling is wrong.

Ickes argued that all is not lost as the RBC session fast approaches. One of the recognized experts in party rules, Ickes said a number of the RBC members have been misinformed about the rules governing the powers of the committee, and he intends to correct the situation before the votes are taken starting on Saturday afternoon.

Comments

[ccortezz]

Communist Tactics!!

[abby4ever]

Well, Ickes, here is some good news---but not for Hillary:

***by davidkc--- from the Kos recommended diary list
Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:40:33 PM CET

Obama takes huge lead over Clinton & McCain in CA, wins over women & indies (Updated)
by davidkc [Subscribe]
Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:40:33 PM CET

The results of a new Field Poll in California show Barack Obama with a huge double-digit lead over Hillary Clinton, and dispel the myth spread by Hillary that she's more electable. The poll also shoots a hole in Hillary's argument that only she can win big states, that she would do better than Obama against McCain, and that she does better with women voters. Yet more evidence to disprove Hillary's laughable claim that "every poll" shows that she would be the better candidate.

The results of the poll (taken May 16-27) show that Obama is now preferred as the party nominee by a landslide 51 to 38 percent among the state's Democrats. The poll also shows Obama doing just as well against McCain as Hillary in the state...**­*

Link: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/30/92035/3013/412/525395

[kathyhussien]

I am a Senator Obama supporter, and you know right now I don't give a rat's behind, I just want it over give her all the freaking votes I don't care she will never win in Nov.,
The division Hillary has caused in the party was done to ensure a McCain victory. Does anyone question why the King of Dubai donated $100 million to the Clinton library? My theory is that was a payment for the things they wanted when Clinton took office. I don’t know like control of the ports they tried to get before but the democrats stop. If a democrat is president maybe she would be able to convince her party to go along with it. It would ensure the Bush administration of no trials for war crimes. It would ensure a war in Iran. Don’t get me wrong she would do things like appoint liberal judges, gasoline prices will go down a little back to $ 3.00, a gallon you know those hot button issues they think liberals want. But over all there would be minimum change to the current situation. Jobs would still be going overseas, healthcare either won’t get passed again, or it would be watered down so it would be of little help, and the control of the Houses would not remain in democratic hands.

[merle7]

This is for the people who say Obama can't win. If Hillary's democrats fight as hard for Obama with his already loyal supporters it is no way on God's green earth that John McCain will be the next president of the US(JUST LOOK AT THE VOTER TURN OUT FOR THE DEMS THIS PRIMARY). It will take a united party to defeat him, with all personal feelings aside. Hillary could help end the division ,but it does not look like she is willing. She has lost site of the ultimate goal(DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT) and replaced it with her own mad ambition. Taking this to the convention is not going to help. IF she were ahead in delagate count (WHICH IS HOW THE NOMINEE IS CHOSEN) She would be the nominee.
To say it should be the popular vote (NOT COUNTING OBAMA'S CACUCUS STATES, AND COUNTING TWO DISPUTED PRIMARIES) is no way fair.(AND CHANGES THE RULES IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PRIMARY) Hillary has lost site of reality here people. She and Bill does not OWN the Democratic Party(AS MUCH AS THEY THINK THEY DO) They have made their mark and should move on. FELLOW DEMS PLEASE UNITE AND GIVE OUR NOMINEE A CHANCE AND ELECT A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT THIS YEAR!!!

[ICanHasDemocracy]

oh that Hillary, the always triangulat­ing,carpet­bagging spider.

The fact that Obama wants to meet halfway speaks volumes. Hillary will still lose.
If the Phyloginistic Hillary supporters want to go Independednt and want 5 more years of war/occupation based on the Bush Doctrine, then they will have painted themselves into a corner.

Just what we want in the WH. Another douche bag who wants to steal an election rather than play by the rules. God Bless America.

[BillyShears]

I have a prediction - Hillary is setting the stage for a built in excuse to opt out of campaigning for Obama. Can't you just hear her saying that she can't support a presidential race whose party "doesn't count all the votes"
A bunch of us called it a long time ago- she's out to sink this campaign so she can run in 2012......­.

[pakean3]

Can you really support a person who runs a race run like this?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/29/obamas.first.campaign/index.html

[McPander]

yes

[WretchedEtcher]

"politics ain't bean bag"

I am not looking for a messiah. I am not looking for a savior. I am looking for the best candidate. Out of the 3 we got left, I think Obama is the best. Out of the 3, i think he has run the best campaign.

First of all I have never been disillusioned. Second any implication that Hillary or McCain has run a "high-ground" campaign is fallacy.

[111]

Runs a race by respecting established and accepted rules? Yes I can support him easily

[obamagal]

You betcha pake!

[Fabienne]

Do Obama supporters really want Clinton to campaign for him considering what has transpired? Much of the electorate dislikes the Clintons intensely, and this segment has only increased during the primary. Let them stay home. They'd done themselves no favors by their campaigning, and they would do him no favors.

[obamagal]

Not to mention the fact they keep threatening us. Sheesh! Bullies!

[eej]

I don't want the Clintons to campaign for Obama. Nobody believes anything they say. They would only hurt him.

I want the Clintons to go very, very far away and leave Obama and America alone.

We can repair the damage she did better without her sticking around to inflict more.

[speechteach]

I've been thinking that same thing. I think she and Bill would send subtle messages to people around America to question Obama. He can do a fine job with the high profile people and the huge numbers of volunteers he has inspired around the country. I almost hope they just go somewhere to grieve and get some psychological help for their narcissism!

[dentuso]

Yup. I called sabotage halfway through her 12-contest run of defeats. I guaranteed my wife that she would bring it to the convention, "delegitimizing" the system, the process, the DNC and the Dem nominee in November.

Unfortunately, I think American voters are a little smarter than they've been in the past.

History will not be kind to her.

[obamagal]

You mean "unfortunately for her" OR "fortunate­ly"....

Having said that (sorry), I agree!

[M.S. Bellows, Jr. - Huffpost Blogger]

I feel like Cassandra! No one's seeing what's really going on. Clinton WANTS the delegations half-seated, though she has to pretend otherwise. That's why some of her supporters are "defecting­." If she gets everything she wants tomorrow and Obama still gains the majority of delegates, she's out of the race. But if she gets reined in at all tomorrow, she has grounds to appeal to the full Convention and can pretend that "voters' rights" are motivating her to continue her campaign til then!

IT'S A TRAP! IT'S A TRAP!

[Fabienne]

Who cares if she appeals to the convention? Will the mainstream media be covering her nonstop all summer when McCain and Obama are campaigning against one another in the general election? She'll show up at the convention looking the mummy that rose from the dead. Let's quit all this paranoia and move on to the positive leg of the campaign, supporting our nominee against an increasing­ly-befuddl­ed opponent. The less energy given to Clinton, whether negative or not, the better. It is the most effective means of defusing any momentum she has.

[speechteach]

I think she is planning to keep campaigning after Tuesday and probably all the way to the convention. If the Superdelegates and the elected delegates from the remaining primaries give Obama a high enough number so that even full delegations from FL and MI could not surpass him, she wouldn't have an argument. She might just stay in, however, in the hopes that something happens to him. There is a very strong reason for her to want this Presidency, and it is driving her more than just wanting to serve her country. It's almost as if she is running scared!

[Pollitrix]

Here Here - my sentiments exactly.

She had over 17mil vote for her a good percentage will vote democratic, a good deal were Republican causing mischief. For the 3 or 4 million that will vote for John McCain, we can counter by large voter registeration drives.

barackobama.com

[obamagal]

Great message - just as long as the media reads it too.... Don't get me wrong, but Hillary wouldn't be able to play all these desperate, outrageous games without the media covering it. Ratings = $$$.

Every time the media moves on, and she doesn't get the coverage, she concocts something even more extreme - like the civil rights argument (hello?), and the media all race to be first in line to report it, and report it, and report it, forgetting, of course, to report it logically. They swallow her spin - it is to their advantage to do so. Ratings = $$$.

They share, imo, just as much of the blame for this farce as does Hillary's unethical, disgusting campaign does.

..........­..........­..........­........ Having said that (phew, that felt good) ..........­..........­..........­.......

I SO agree with you. She needs to be *dropped* asap - she's yesterday's news. Let's move on and WIN with our Candidate!

G'Obama!

[eej]

Right on.

Why else would Ickes be announcing her DNC toadies would defect, in advance? They got his memo. They're on board with the plan.

[eej]

This is typical Clinton dirty politics. She'll play dirty from the White House, too. We can't let her get there.

[WretchedEtcher]

I think the plan to bring in protesters is also indicative of this. Since there is no decision to protest yet, one can only image they are being brought in to be disruptive.

[obamagal]

Oh, most assuredly. Supporters of Emily's Group, the Confederation of Teachers, et al, are being rounded up. It's all for *free* media exposure, to pressure the supers, and the electorate - the same types of tactics used by the Bush mob to "cow" the people. Think "code orange" folks. Front, center, 'in your face' emotion-inducing drama so that one makes decisions based on emotion, not fact nor critical thinking.

It's all orchestrated. It's a sham. So far, the supers have been endorsing Barack by an enormous margin, and the majority of Americans are being smart and savvy.

[111]

Makes me wonder why Ickes voted in favor of stripping MI and FL of their delegates in the first place. Were they rigging the election since last year?

[ishok]

This isn't grade school this is real world. You can't be naive and close your eyes and wish real hard and the numbers will change. It's time to act like grownups and walk away from the circus... no you can't have any more cotton candy... no you can't make pretend that this isn't over. You can't stomp your foot and launch into a hissy-fit because you don't like the answer. No, "Gramps" is not here to make it your way 'cause you're his "lil pumpkin". Hillary lost this thing a while back. Her knowledgeable campaign folks have known this for a while. These staffers stay on out of loyalty and in hopes of being paid for services rendered. You stay on because you have a leader that's still fighting. You see "Joan of Arc" they (her staff) see "Don Quixote". Your leader wants to turn this into something different than reality. The endless "IF" questions to confuse and discombobulate discussions and arguments. Aren't you sick of it? Aren't you concerned that there will be a perception that women can't understand the cold hard nature of presidential politics? There was a chance from the beginning when all of these candidates started out that Hillary could lose. Did you know that? Or were you of the understanding that it "was a woman's turn"... and that's how it worked?

[obamagal]

Darned good post! Spot on....

[rabprevent]

LET THEM DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.
MY SUGGESTION IS THAT THESE CLINTONITES ELECTED CANDIDATES CAN SUFFER THE SAME FATE WURING THEIR NEXT ELECTIONS, THEY CAN BE VOTED OUT OF OFFICE JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.
SEND THEM A MESSAGE, QUIT SCREWING AROUND OR THEY WILL BE DESTROY BY US JUST LIKE THEY ARE DESTROYING THE PARTY>>>>

[ishok]

COUNT ME IN RAB... WE SHOULD COMPOSE A LIST AND AS THEY COME UP FOR REELECTION ... MOVE THESE FOLKS OUT.
THERE SHOULD BE DAYS OF RECKONING AHEAD.
NEVER FORGET.

[obamagal]

Being on the West Coast, I've only just had my first cup of coffee and logged in. Whew, what a flurry of nonsensical messages.

By the number of these messages posted by Hillary supporters, I've come to the conclusion there was a mad flurry of activity last night on the "only, and nothing but" Hillary sites, setting up a plan to "bombard us" clear thinking Democrats with their *logic*.

Good try.... but....

[Said one deluder to another: "Darn ladies, it didn't work"].

[kellygrrrl]

so if they "half-seat" FL and MI
then what does the "Magic Number" become?

the Math Myth is making my head spin

[eej]

Obama still wins the new magic number, and Clinton appeals the ruling all the way to the convention.

She is a monster.

[pakean3]

How about this? Is everyone sure that Obama is the candidate of change or just power hungry. It seems at such a young age he already knows how to play the Karl Rove play book..

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/29/obamas.first.campaign/index.html

[Pollitrix]

You found his kindergarten papers, didn't you. Great detective work. LOL

[M.S. Bellows, Jr. - Huffpost Blogger]

Well, we already know that Hillary is power hungry and knows how to play the Karl Rove play book -- in fact, she's been citing it on live TV lately. So I'm not going to waste time following your link -- I'd rather run the small risk that Obama's just another pol, than vote for Clinton who definitely is one.

[ICanHasDemocracy]

complete with Powerpoint slides lifted directly from KR's laptop.

[Herse182]

This coming from a Hillary supporter whose candidate wrote the forward for the Karl Rove playbook.

[obamagal]

Power hungry? You're a laugh a minute....

Sorry, Hillary owns that one, all by herself. What is Hillary's maniacal behavior if not *power hungry* [as well as desperate, and transparent, and dishonorable and egotistica­l]?....

Head's up. A Rovian tactic, just like in 04 ~ take a characteristic of yourself and cloak your opponent with it....

*Not this time* ~ don't you know Barack's the teflon man?.... clean, above board, and everything by the rules*. This is probably why Hillary couldn't win, even with her enormous lead in the beginning. She doesn't know anything but dirty politics.

Better luck next try :8)

Oh, before I go, what is it about Rove that so fascinates Hillary?

[meltingpot101]

Sounds like the "Clinton Machine" has met their match. Hillary thought he wasn't tough enough.

The Clintons should have done more research about the young senator from Illinois.

[Intruder]

It's a perfect illustration of how low this nomination process has sunk, that members who might potentially decide to follow the rules as written and known at the outset, irrespective of their candidate loyalties, are being termed as potential "defectors­."

[kellygrrrl]

exactly!

it is repulsive

[ICanHasDemocracy]

and they are playing right into the GOP's hands.They would be the surrender monkeys.

[meltingpot101]

Good point.

[NCMan]

For all of you claiming that Hillary has said in the past that it was clear these votes wouldn't count. So what? Hillary's earlier position on this make no difference really.

These states have every right to make their case to the DNC Rules committee either with or without the support of either candidate.

And, once these states have decided to make an appeal to the DNC Rules committee either candidate can choose to support those states or not

Please remember that at the same time the candidate agreed to strip these states of their delegates they also all agreed to the two options that would be available for these states to get their delegates seated.

1. Revote
2. make an appeal to the DNC Rules committee and/or the Convention Credentials Committee

Nothing about anything that has been happening regarding these two states in any of the efforts to get their delegates seated (including the efforts to do revotes) has been outside of the legitimate processes put in place by the DNC and agreed to by all parties.

Constantly harping that people are trying to change rules or break rules is simply NOT TRUE. And, repeating it over and over again just proves that you do not understand what the actual rules of the DNC are.

[Herse182]

I stopped reading after your first paragraph because that was the most ridiculous statement in the history of humanity. (Statements made by Bush don't count because he technically is not a human.)

[obamagal]

I only had to read the first line to immediately conclude either a troll, or a "win at all costs" HilLIARy supporter had arrived.

I hope you children's teachers in school are better at it than you are.... life's lessons...­. etc.

Here's to finding your lost your integrity, when this is over.... *Hint* ~ check the sock drawer.

[eej]

I don't pay any attention to the opinions of people who support lying, reneging, or selective enforcement of the rules.

[NCMan]

well then you will have to stop supporting Obama.

At the same time the article about Bosnia lies was published, there was an article publish about the lies of Obama taking credit for bills in the senate he had nothing to do with. So, both candidates have lied about their accomplishments.

Re selective enforcement of the rules. the rules fo FL and MI said no campaigning. One day after signing that pledge, Obama held a meeitng with reporters in FL after a private fund raiser. Talking to reporters in FL was a violation of the no campaigning rule.

Reneging on what Obama said. IN a debate with Clinton, Obama stated that he took Hillary at her word that she was not responsible for sending the picture of him in African garb to Drudge and the issue should be dropped. The following week while campaiging in Miss, he accused Clinton of sending the picture to Drudge.

So, Obama has broken rule that you have chosen to judge a candidate by.

[flydoghead]

NCMan, I don't believe that anyone is seriously saying that she doesn't have the "right"

to appeal to the Rules Committee. We are just saying that if one familurizes themselves

with the rules, then it seems unlikely that the outcome will change.

Further, it seems that the arguement that she is somehow being treated unfairly only works

with an uninformed audience and is somewhat insulting to those who have bothered to

do due dilligence.

[kesiac]

"For all of you claiming that Hillary has said in the past that it was clear these votes wouldn't count. So what? Hillary's earlier position on this make no difference really."

Why because your candidates keeping her word, being honorable, forthcoming, and trustworthy are not qualities a President should posess.

[Herse182]

Its kinda scary to see these Hilbots on hear defending her to the death. Are we not all on the same "Democrats" team? Im sorry your candidate lost the primary battle, mine didn't win in 04 but I still voted for Kerry in the general. I would expect you to do the same for Obama.

And Im sorry you feel the rules are being unfair to you but these are the rules she agreed to play by. Teams in the NFL that lose by a field goal don't get to say at the end of the game "Well field goals don't count so we really won!" thats not how this works. Obama has out raised her and out campaigned her. He has an extremely good chance to win the Presidency in November with or without the Hillary supporters.

And if this appeal of logic and reason doesn't work then:

Delegate count:
Obama - 1984
Clinton - 1781

SCOREBOARD!

[taketheother]

actually they should be called corruptocrats

[Raymondf]

The simple solution is, seat all Fla. DEl's split Michigan 1/2 and 1/2 since Obama wasn't on the ballot. Strip the votes of all superdel from both states of their vote, since they were the cause of this mess to start with.