Clinton's Choice: Scorch The Earth Or Prepare To Fold

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First Posted: 05-30-08 07:01 PM   |   Updated: 06- 7-08 05:12 AM

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Hillary Clinton

Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning.

Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse compromise and keep the dispute over the Florida and Michigan delegations alive all the way to the August convention.

The second choice would be to go for a partial victory that would grant some legitimacy to the Florida and Michigan primaries. That, in turn, would strengthen Hillary Clinton's claim that she has won the popular vote by adding the 1,185,359 votes that she won in Florida and Michigan to her total, and the 569,041 votes Barack Obama won in the two states to his total - with a net Clinton pickup of 616,318 votes.

The Obama forces face a similarly tough set of choices: whether to agree to a compromise tilted in Clinton's favor in order to resolve the issue and prevent a convention floor fight, or go to the mat in an attempt to gain as many possible delegates out of the deal as possible.

On the surface, the Clinton forces have a weak hand, their own representatives on the 30-member RBC split between the goal of winning the nomination and refusing to push the rules to the breaking point.

That does not, however, guarantee that Clinton will emerge the loser. Instead, the RBC session could well reach an impasse, with no majority emerging for any solution to the issues of seating the disputed Florida and Michigan delegations.

That outcome would have the potential benefit to Clinton of having an issue to raise at the Denver convention in August. If, as some Clinton backers continue to hope, a new controversy emerges to damage Obama's bid along the lines of Jeremiah Wright's videotaped sermons, having a procedural vote on hand can prove to be a vehicle to force more debate and to raise more doubts.

Today, less than 24 hours from the start of the RBC session, some Clinton loyalists on the Rules Committee are publicly questioning whether they would support Clinton's demand for seating all the Florida and Michigan delegates with full voting rights.

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Donald Fowler, a former chairman of the Democratic National Committee and the South Carolina Democratic Party, said that in the case of the 210-member Florida delegation elected on January 29, "I'm going to have to think long and hard before I support the position that we won't settle for anything less than 100 percent. There are institutional concerns that have to be respected."

Instead, Fowler indicated he is inclined to back seating the Florida delegates with the proviso that they get only half a vote each. The case of Michigan, where Obama did not appear on the January 15 primary ballot, is a far more difficult state to find an acceptable solution for, Fowler noted.

Another key pro-Clinton member of the RBC, Elaine Kaymark, holds similar concerns to Fowler but, in a brief phone interview as her plane was about to take off from Boston to Washington, she would only say "I don't know yet," in response to questions about how she intends to vote.

The Democratic Party in 2007 voted to strip Michigan and Florida of all their convention delegates if they went ahead with plans to hold January primaries in violation of party rules prohibiting contests before February 5, with exceptions for Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada. Florida and Michigan went ahead anyway, and Clinton won the popular vote in both states.

Since then, everyone, including Clinton and Obama, have agreed that both populous and highly important battleground states should have some representation at the convention in order to prevent alienating voters in Michigan and Florida, potentially fatally damaging the chances of the Democratic nominee in November.

While the Clinton forces are divided, that does not mean that the Obama backers will emerge winners.

Obama's operatives have pointedly avoided explicit descriptions of their goals at the RBC session - "We're of course going to and have been working towards a fair and equitable resolution to the seating of the delegations," said spokesman Bill Burton.

In a conference call earlier this week, Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said "we've been clear for some time now that we're open to some compromise that's fair," adding: "the attention of both the voters and the parties is quickly turning toward the general election so we're hoping that, you know, there can be some reasonable resolution on Saturday."

Other sources, however, say that the Obama campaign would accept the Florida half-vote solution, which would give Clinton a net gain of roughly 19 delegates -- no where near enough to catch up to Obama.

The more difficult issue for Obama and Clinton is the 156-member Michigan delegation. Since Obama did not appear on the ballot at all, there are no delegates pledged to him. Hillary won 55 percent, while "uncommitted" took 40 percent, and the rest went to minor candidates.

A number of Obama's supporters contend that at least 40 percent of the Michigan delegates should be assigned to him. The proposal they are actually preparing to press would be to declare the Michigan contest to be an unfair test, and seat all the delegates, splitting them right down the middle, 50-50, between Clinton and Obama.

In the case of Michigan, however, the Clinton forces appear to be unanimous in their view that she should get at least 55 percent of the state's delegate votes. They are, in addition, deeply skeptical of, if not explicitly opposed to, the assignment of any Michigan delegate votes to Obama.

Clinton supporters Harold Ickes, her chief delegate hunter, and Fowler - both masters of party rules - contend that delegates chosen by voters casting ballots for "uncommitted" cannot be assigned to a specific candidate by the Rules Committee.

They argue that to do so would be to impute an unknowable motivation on the part of the voter, a theoretically dangerous step for any political body to take.

"Giving us no delegates in Michigan," Plouffe countered, would not be "terribly reasonable."

Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning. Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse comprom...
Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning. Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse comprom...
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- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 27 fans permalink

Good...I'm glad this issue of voters who didn't participate is being actively addressed...it's my top concern.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:06 PM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

there are also those of us for whom knowledge of our votes not counting affected our vote.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:52 PM on 05/31/2008
- NightRider I'm a Fan of NightRider 5 fans permalink

PROPERTY TAX .................finally someone mentioned it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:04 PM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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It is quite clear that Obama has once again outorganized Hillary Clinton.

While the Clinton campaign was obsessed with putting together a protest outside (where there are no live cameras), the Obama camp made sure they had the seats packed inside the committee hearing (where there are live cameras).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:03 PM on 05/31/2008

You are so RIGHT - GREAT POINT! ROFLMAO

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:18 PM on 05/31/2008
- liseworks I'm a Fan of liseworks 142 fans permalink
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RIGHT !! We didn't have to be subjected to the screeching !
Thank you MSM for (finally ?) having the good sense to know where to put your cameras.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:43 PM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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I encourage Wexler to run against Bill Nelson for his Senate seat.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:59 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 27 fans permalink

Unless he's serving in the Obama Cabinet!

I would like someone to mention the Edwards delegates. They should be free to half-vote as well, presumably for Obama now that Edwards is on board with Obama. If so, the margin in Florida changes from 50-33 to 50-47, which is probably more similar to the current sentiment there.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:08 PM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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Seems like mostly Obama supporter's in the crowd.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:50 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 27 fans permalink

The Clintonites are outside hollering.

But seriously, didn't the tickets sell out in like 60 seconds on the internet?

Obama supporters tend to be more internet savvy as a collective group.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:52 AM on 05/31/2008
- liseworks I'm a Fan of liseworks 142 fans permalink
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Obama Campaign does it again - so smart - without any fanfare, they show up where it counts, making no assumptions that there will or will not be News Cameras outside.
This is the only candidate to be able to handle the Presidency deftly & without drama.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:49 PM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 27 fans permalink

Ha...Donna is the rock star of the RBC!

You go, baby!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:43 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 27 fans permalink

This is why I LOVE Donna...she is the lone voice of people who didn't vote that day.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:46 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 27 fans permalink

Finally someone acknowledges that the Florida numbers were ridiculously low rather than high.

In a state of just shy of 20 million people, 1.7 million is not a large number.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:43 AM on 05/31/2008
- NightRider I'm a Fan of NightRider 5 fans permalink

I strongly believe the reason why this seems so complicated is because Obama campaign is trying to be nice and let the Hillary Camp run all over TV talking about let the votes count and Fl And MI must be seated.

Had the Obama camp lash back hard and threatened to take its supporters and start chaos, this thing would be settled already.

The Hillary camp is mistaking Obama's meekness and they are going to be sadly mistaking.

I am tired of Hillary supporters frothing at the mouth. I ask this, can she win without Obama's supporters?

See...that argument goes both ways. I am not scared by idle threats. People like me support Obama because i want to see these same "Hillary Demographics" get ahead in this country. I will be fine either way.

The question is, will they? I think not.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:39 AM on 05/31/2008
- MsLiz I'm a Fan of MsLiz 115 fans permalink
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I prefer the Obama style of conflict resolution.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:42 AM on 05/31/2008
- abby4ever I'm a Fan of abby4ever 267 fans permalink
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From the Kos home page:

"What Howard Dean Is Doing Now At the DNC is Worse Than Slavery"

by DHinMI
Sat May 31, 2008 at 04:05:18 PM CET

"That was something I overheard outside the DNC Rules and Bylaws committee about a hour ago. I'm hoping that what I hear inside the meeting will be more edifying that what I overheard from that pro-Clinton protester outside the hotel."
************************************************************************************************************

God help us, is this the mentality of Hillary supporters? And they think Obama supporters behave like they're in a cult???

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:36 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 27 fans permalink

Let them say stuff like that. And let the record show it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:38 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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Nothing like 200 people wearing mom jeans, claiming they are being treated like slaves.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:41 AM on 05/31/2008
- MsLiz I'm a Fan of MsLiz 115 fans permalink
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Hey! Nothing wrong with momjeans. You had a mom didn't you? Show some respect.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:44 AM on 05/31/2008
- liseworks I'm a Fan of liseworks 142 fans permalink
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Don't forget the Tee shirts -
There was a sale at Target on Oversized T's with clowns & balloons on the front. They sold out the minute the bus arrived.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:53 PM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 27 fans permalink

Okay...this woman representing Hillary is already an atrocious advocate of her argument, since her framing the assertion in disenfranchisement is the height of duplicity and disingenuiity considering the argument Hillary advocates regarding counting votes in Michigan.

I can't help but laugh at this entire disquisition.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:31 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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I agree.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:38 AM on 05/31/2008

Lotuslike,

I don't need to 'google' media buys. LOL. If I had the info avail to me today (not at work), I would link them up for you and how yopu can do it. I don't have that info today. Your argument for Obama remaining on the ballot and his media buys is a joke.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:29 AM on 05/31/2008

If Obama will be able to meet face to face with the leaders of rogue nations and negotiate agreements why can't he do the same with Clinton? Obama claims he will make breakthroughs in international diplomacy dealing with the world’s worst despots yet he can’t do anything with Senator Clinton? Why is this? Is Clinton more of an intractable tyrant than Kim Jung Il or Khamenei. It's interesting that Obama has decided not to meet with Clinton face to face to work this out when that is exactly what he claims will be the most effective approach with international conflicts. Obama chooses to negotiate through others in dealing with this current potential crisis for the Democrat Party and has decided not to meet with Clinton face to face to work this out. If Obama has the negotiating skills he claims he could have met with Clinton, face to face, talked, convinced Clinton and ended the contested Democratic months ago. It's an interesting paradox.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:20 AM on 05/31/2008

What are you talking about

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:25 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 27 fans permalink

rollingdivision = Lanny Davis

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:31 AM on 05/31/2008
- MsLiz I'm a Fan of MsLiz 115 fans permalink
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Obama has met face to face with Clinton many times, Rollingdivision. They aren't strangers. Now let the party do its work. To use your comparison, it is like letting diplomats work out details of a treaty. Some of that negotiation must take place behind closed doors.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:28 AM on 05/31/2008

Do you know when they sat down to specifically negotiate their differences about the Democratic primary face to face for a summit type meeting?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:21 PM on 05/31/2008
- Forsetti I'm a Fan of Forsetti 69 fans permalink
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Maybe because he realizes her and Bill are crazier than Ahmadinejad!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:30 AM on 05/31/2008
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Ridiculous argument. This is bigger than these two candidates. As much as it has been politicized, it's about future elections and how other states behave. This isn't about Obama and HRC it's about Republican controlled state government, states obeying rules, and more importantly it's about FUTURE PRIMARIES. You need to look at the big picture and step outside of the bubble.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:31 AM on 05/31/2008

Bigger then the world wide consequences of Obama meeting with Assad, Kim Jung Il, the leader of Iran (whoever he is), Chavez and Castro? How is that possible?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:19 PM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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Huh? Obama and Clinton can't negotiate for the Rules and Bylaws committee. Only the Rules and Bylaws committee and negotiate with the Rules and Bylaws committee.

Fact: Obama has agreed that Florida should be seated with half votes - which will happen.

Fact: Michigan Democrats ALREADY AGREED to seat the delegates 69 - 59 in favor of Clinton. Obama has agreed, Hillary has not.

In the end, neither Obama or Clinton can make these decisions, only the RBC can.

Get your facts straight.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:35 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 27 fans permalink

It's hilarious that people have been saying for weeks stuff like "why doesn't Obama just give Hillary what she wants", as if it was his to give.

Just goes to show that the Clinton's can still snow a lot of people.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:39 AM on 05/31/2008

Do you believe if Obama and Clinton personally worked out a compromise the committee, which is composed of their supporters, wouldn't support the agreement? Wouldn't they follow the strong leadership of Obama if he endorsed a plan? If not why not?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:26 PM on 05/31/2008
- ultrabop I'm a Fan of ultrabop 15 fans permalink
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If Obama wasn't on the ballot in Michigan because he thought it wouldn't count anyway because of what the DNC ruled:

HOW CAN THEY POSSIBLY SEAT ANY DELEGATES FROM MICHIGAN??????????

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:18 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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I promise they will either split the delegates in half, or give Hillary 69, and Obama 59 ( a deal that the Michigan Democrats reached weeks ago, that Obama supports, and Hillary is against). Hillary wants the delegates in Michigan seated as such:

Clinton - 73
Obama - 0

Those are numbers that dictators like Saddam would have been envious of.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:21 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 27 fans permalink

History would record it. as such.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:22 AM on 05/31/2008

So Clinton is arguing that she should get ALLher 55% of MI delegates and Obama should get ZERO.

This kind of after the fact rules change and self-serving bullshit is exactly why Clinton should not be the nominee, and why the Clintons should be tossed out of the democratic party. Its just outrageous for anyone to argue that this is fair.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:17 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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Like I said below, this argument that all the people that wanted to vote in Florida's primary actually voted is nonsense. Only in 5 states did voter turnout among Republicans exceed the Democrats. Florida and Michigan were 2 of those states. The other 3 states are Arizona (McCain on ballot), Utah (Mormon Romney on ballot) and Alabama (Christian conservative Huckabee on ballot).

Only in Florida and Michigan, is there no rationale reason for why Republicans outnumbered Democrats on election day. The reason: DEMOCRATS WERE TOLD THEIR VOTE WOULDN'T COUNT.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:17 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 27 fans permalink

Ben Nelson's obfuscations are Clintonian in audacity.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:19 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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Yeah, it's the type of jibberish that makes me want to move to Florida just to vote against him.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:27 AM on 05/31/2008
- NightRider I'm a Fan of NightRider 5 fans permalink

And the reason why so many Democrats went to vote is the PROPERTY TAX VOTE.

A lot of these people are older couples who own homes and this is a Hillary demographic so they went to vote for their property tax reduction and they cast a vote for Hillary.

Bill Nelson conveniently left that out of his argument.

SHAM!!!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:23 AM on 05/31/2008
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