Clinton's Choice: Scorch The Earth Or Prepare To Fold

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First Posted: 05-30-08 07:01 PM   |   Updated: 06- 7-08 05:12 AM

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Hillary Clinton

Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning.

Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse compromise and keep the dispute over the Florida and Michigan delegations alive all the way to the August convention.

The second choice would be to go for a partial victory that would grant some legitimacy to the Florida and Michigan primaries. That, in turn, would strengthen Hillary Clinton's claim that she has won the popular vote by adding the 1,185,359 votes that she won in Florida and Michigan to her total, and the 569,041 votes Barack Obama won in the two states to his total - with a net Clinton pickup of 616,318 votes.

The Obama forces face a similarly tough set of choices: whether to agree to a compromise tilted in Clinton's favor in order to resolve the issue and prevent a convention floor fight, or go to the mat in an attempt to gain as many possible delegates out of the deal as possible.

On the surface, the Clinton forces have a weak hand, their own representatives on the 30-member RBC split between the goal of winning the nomination and refusing to push the rules to the breaking point.

That does not, however, guarantee that Clinton will emerge the loser. Instead, the RBC session could well reach an impasse, with no majority emerging for any solution to the issues of seating the disputed Florida and Michigan delegations.

That outcome would have the potential benefit to Clinton of having an issue to raise at the Denver convention in August. If, as some Clinton backers continue to hope, a new controversy emerges to damage Obama's bid along the lines of Jeremiah Wright's videotaped sermons, having a procedural vote on hand can prove to be a vehicle to force more debate and to raise more doubts.

Today, less than 24 hours from the start of the RBC session, some Clinton loyalists on the Rules Committee are publicly questioning whether they would support Clinton's demand for seating all the Florida and Michigan delegates with full voting rights.

Story continues below

Donald Fowler, a former chairman of the Democratic National Committee and the South Carolina Democratic Party, said that in the case of the 210-member Florida delegation elected on January 29, "I'm going to have to think long and hard before I support the position that we won't settle for anything less than 100 percent. There are institutional concerns that have to be respected."

Instead, Fowler indicated he is inclined to back seating the Florida delegates with the proviso that they get only half a vote each. The case of Michigan, where Obama did not appear on the January 15 primary ballot, is a far more difficult state to find an acceptable solution for, Fowler noted.

Another key pro-Clinton member of the RBC, Elaine Kaymark, holds similar concerns to Fowler but, in a brief phone interview as her plane was about to take off from Boston to Washington, she would only say "I don't know yet," in response to questions about how she intends to vote.

The Democratic Party in 2007 voted to strip Michigan and Florida of all their convention delegates if they went ahead with plans to hold January primaries in violation of party rules prohibiting contests before February 5, with exceptions for Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada. Florida and Michigan went ahead anyway, and Clinton won the popular vote in both states.

Since then, everyone, including Clinton and Obama, have agreed that both populous and highly important battleground states should have some representation at the convention in order to prevent alienating voters in Michigan and Florida, potentially fatally damaging the chances of the Democratic nominee in November.

While the Clinton forces are divided, that does not mean that the Obama backers will emerge winners.

Obama's operatives have pointedly avoided explicit descriptions of their goals at the RBC session - "We're of course going to and have been working towards a fair and equitable resolution to the seating of the delegations," said spokesman Bill Burton.

In a conference call earlier this week, Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said "we've been clear for some time now that we're open to some compromise that's fair," adding: "the attention of both the voters and the parties is quickly turning toward the general election so we're hoping that, you know, there can be some reasonable resolution on Saturday."

Other sources, however, say that the Obama campaign would accept the Florida half-vote solution, which would give Clinton a net gain of roughly 19 delegates -- no where near enough to catch up to Obama.

The more difficult issue for Obama and Clinton is the 156-member Michigan delegation. Since Obama did not appear on the ballot at all, there are no delegates pledged to him. Hillary won 55 percent, while "uncommitted" took 40 percent, and the rest went to minor candidates.

A number of Obama's supporters contend that at least 40 percent of the Michigan delegates should be assigned to him. The proposal they are actually preparing to press would be to declare the Michigan contest to be an unfair test, and seat all the delegates, splitting them right down the middle, 50-50, between Clinton and Obama.

In the case of Michigan, however, the Clinton forces appear to be unanimous in their view that she should get at least 55 percent of the state's delegate votes. They are, in addition, deeply skeptical of, if not explicitly opposed to, the assignment of any Michigan delegate votes to Obama.

Clinton supporters Harold Ickes, her chief delegate hunter, and Fowler - both masters of party rules - contend that delegates chosen by voters casting ballots for "uncommitted" cannot be assigned to a specific candidate by the Rules Committee.

They argue that to do so would be to impute an unknowable motivation on the part of the voter, a theoretically dangerous step for any political body to take.

"Giving us no delegates in Michigan," Plouffe countered, would not be "terribly reasonable."

Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning. Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse comprom...
Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning. Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse comprom...
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- NightRider I'm a Fan of NightRider 5 fans permalink

Where were these arguments last August when the decision was made to punish these two states?

This is a sham and i am a resident of Florida.

Let the votes count? Then why the hell do we have caucuses were those votes did not count?

A sham argument. I am not buying these sad stories.

This is like being laid off then telling your mortgage company it is not your fault that your company when bust so they can't take your house, you have to live somewhere, it is your right.

And we know how important homeownership is. Just like count the votes.

PLEASE!!!!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:11 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

good comparison!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:14 AM on 05/31/2008

This is all fascinating and revealing. The so called democrat party is choosing their candidate behind closed doors among party hacks, and not in the open by popular vote.
Now watch closely, as the democrats reveal the racist nature of their party and find some tortured logic to ROB OBAMA!

Heil Hillary!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:20 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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Bill Nelson's voice sounds like he should be performing in a 1960's Western movie.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:09 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

I can't stand him.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:09 AM on 05/31/2008
- Kalima I'm a Fan of Kalima 74 fans permalink
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"Rawhide?"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:09 AM on 05/31/2008
- MsLiz I'm a Fan of MsLiz 117 fans permalink
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Is that a reference to Sen. Nelson's face? His skin looks a little taut to me.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:32 AM on 05/31/2008

He is kind of John Wayne'ish sounding isn't he? lol

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:10 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

Nelson is obfuscating too I see...pathetic.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:15 AM on 05/31/2008
- Mr. Cobb I'm a Fan of Mr. Cobb 5 fans permalink

republican = chaoser

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:07 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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From Drudge:

Bill Clinton admits in private: Seat half delegates.

During a private fundraiser on April 29, 2008, Bill Clinton says that Florida and Michigan should only recieve half delegates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uluCnBctpHU

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

our votes can't be counted as they were intended, because they were tainted with the knowledge that they would not count. what is so difficult to understand about that?????

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:02 AM on 05/31/2008

SaulG, one of my best friends lives in Panama City (I used to as well), and for months she has been livid that she and her large family were cheated out of voting. They're Obama supporters and were told that their votes wouldn't count so they didn't go to the polls. She is utterly disgusted by what is going on now, so I can certainly feel for your point of view.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:06 AM on 05/31/2008
- MsLiz I'm a Fan of MsLiz 117 fans permalink
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She has learned to never believe a Clinton.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:34 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

Indeed...which is why I find anything other than entirely discounting the two states, as was agreed to by all, to be cheating.

If Florida gives half strength to the pledged delegates and zip to the unpledged, I'll be annoyed, but I'll get over it.

Michigan better be a goose egg as per the rules or I can't vote (D). Michigan is too tainted to repair.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:06 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

Plus Michigan has pulled this crap before.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:07 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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Wow, it seems pretty clear that the rules and bylaws meeting isn't going to work out so well for Hillary.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:58 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

That's as it should be. Her argument is counter to the rules as accepted by all, including herself.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 AM on 05/31/2008

Just like Alice in Wonderland......the White Queen is always right even when shes wrong. "Why I even contradict myself," she cackles.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:22 AM on 05/31/2008
    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 AM on 05/31/2008

In the final analysis we now understand that all the Hillary Clinton haters rushed to vote for Barack Obama as a way to express their "anybody, but Hillary sentiment". Their vote was driven by emotion and Barack could had been "anybody".

As the Hillary-haters got to know the "real" Barack Hussein and the endless list of his close family and friends that share a pattern of hate for America and the desire to overthrow the american values and lifestyle as we know it; they now find themselves in a very difficult situation as they realized that their vote has brought close to american presidency, an extremist supremacist group of individuals lead by Barack Hussein Obama.

In the final analysis, americans that love our country have only one choice if Barack gets the democratic nomination:
They can choose not to vote and sit back at home or...they vote for John McCain, a patriot american that loves America and risked his life to preserve democracy.

In the final analysis, we know that Barack Hussein Obama is unelectable!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:37 AM on 05/31/2008
- Kalima I'm a Fan of Kalima 74 fans permalink
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Scheisse!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:40 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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"a pattern of hate for America and the desire to overthrow the american values and lifestyle as we know it."

It's amazing how Hillary Clinton and her supporters have adopted the same rhetoric as Rush Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity, etc....

The last thing I need is the supporters of Bill and Hillary Clinton preach to me about family values.

If you so wish, my friend, to vote for John McCain (3 wives, atleast 1 affair) because you feel he represents "American values and lifestyle" that you feel represents you, Go Ahead.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:45 AM on 05/31/2008

"John McCain (3 wives, atleast 1 affair) "

Bill Clinton: one wife, numerous affairs. I can see the correlation. Let this troll vote his conscience. I assume he doesn't have one.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:49 AM on 05/31/2008
- pacats I'm a Fan of pacats 4 fans permalink

Williamg, I doubt the poster you responded to is a Hillary supporter. It reads too much like the Karl Rove, Newt Gingrinch talking points. That said, the American values often talked about by the GOP has moved into a mean spirited mindset towards groups of people. Americans are encouraged to hate and attack each other under the umbrella of the republican party. We are told to trust in Washinton to do what is right by us, while our politicians favor corporations and ignore the little people.
1). the American values would not have sold us into an unjust war for oil profits.
2) the American values would not have closed our factories, and left so many people unemployed.
3). the American values would not tell us to hate people of other ethnic origins and only support and believe in what Washington tells us to believe in.
The American values has taken a twisted turn down a path that decent Americans know to back away from.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:02 AM on 05/31/2008
- Mr. Cobb I'm a Fan of Mr. Cobb 5 fans permalink

No, you have another choice: You can leave America if you don't like it here. You republican chaosers will never win another national or even regional election again unless you stop with the warmongering, lying, thieving and incompetence you've shown the last 8 years.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:49 AM on 05/31/2008
- SCG I'm a Fan of SCG 110 fans permalink
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"In the final analysis"

scratch "final" and put in "faulty"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:51 AM on 05/31/2008
- LexLuthier I'm a Fan of LexLuthier 7 fans permalink
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I can honestly say that Obama is the first candidate I have ever supported that wasn't some kind of compromise. I started out firmly behind Clinton but I quickly realized that Obama is the best candidate I have ever seen run for high office. He is incredibly electable because he has integrity.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:54 AM on 05/31/2008
- Mr. Cobb I'm a Fan of Mr. Cobb 5 fans permalink

There's something wrong with a woman who trys to out macho a man. A normal woman doesn't do or have to do that and what's the point? Is this feminism? Is this what average woman want in this country now?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:35 AM on 05/31/2008
- ultrabop I'm a Fan of ultrabop 15 fans permalink
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that's a good counter attack to the feminist theme of "why can't we be treated like men?"

because to be treated like a man, you have to act like a man, which in most cases translates to "kind of fucked up," and in the political realm, "really seriously fucked up."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:42 AM on 05/31/2008
- Kalima I'm a Fan of Kalima 74 fans permalink
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I think that equal right are more than fair, considering that women in general do all the
hard work but in Hillary's case it was not for ALL women, It was her way of repaying
Bill. This does not work for many women. We choose to deal with our demons, in
private.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:46 AM on 05/31/2008
- Kalima I'm a Fan of Kalima 74 fans permalink
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Could that have been equal rights, even?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 AM on 05/31/2008
- ultrabop I'm a Fan of ultrabop 15 fans permalink
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yeah, that's what I'm talking about!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:43 AM on 05/31/2008
- MsLiz I'm a Fan of MsLiz 117 fans permalink
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Laughed til I cried.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:39 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

Florida is asserting that the pledged delegates be halved, but hat supers be given full votes.

The RBC better have none of that, or off to McCain I go.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:34 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

now, jack, don't pull a clinton!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:39 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

Pledged delegates are the people's voice. This Florida guy's argument is that it is okay to reduce the pledged delegate votes by half (and thus reduce the people, who are blameless in this debacle, to a half say), but leave the political honchos say in tact as full votes.

Hell no to that.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:42 AM on 05/31/2008
- NightRider I'm a Fan of NightRider 5 fans permalink

I would argue that the pledge delegates be halved since their is a direct correlation with the voters. Then i would counter argue that due to the violation the superdelegates that represent those states hold no power hence no votes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:41 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

If I heard right, that's what Mr. Roosevelt said was the default punishment.

Pledged delegates get a half vote and supers get no vote.

That's the best I'll tolerate for Florida.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:44 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

our votes were affected by the knowledge that they would not count.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:58 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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If it denies Hillary a talking point, I don't care if they cave on that matter.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:41 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

Good...this McDonald guy is calling him out.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:45 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

And Fowler is too..that Florida guy was blowing smoke.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:47 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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Fact: 26 states held both Democrat and Republican contests on the same day. In 21 of 26 of those contests, more people voted in the Democratic contest than in the Republican contest.

Let's look at those 5 states that had more people vote in the Republican contest, than in the Democratic contest:

Arizona - This should be obvious, being that this is John McCain's own state.

Utah - A heavily Mormon state, that had a Mormon on the ballot (Romney).

Alabama - A large turnout amond Christian conservatives for Huckabee.

Florida - Democrats were told it wouldn't count.

Michigan - Democrats were told it wouldn't count.

The Clinton campaign will constantly mention how they had record turnout in each of these states, therefore the vote tally must stand. But, I think the facts show that Democratic voter turnout was actually way off pace with the rest of the nation.

Fact: Many Democrats didn't come out to vote in Florida and Michigan because they didn't believe the contest will matter.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:32 AM on 05/31/2008
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Facts haven't changed the minds of these "victims" so far, do not expect it to happen now.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:36 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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Oh, of course not. I just like putting these things on the record for rational people. I long ago gave up on those nutty "victims".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:47 AM on 05/31/2008

The Hillarys remind me of another infamous married couple in history: Ahab and Jezebel, who were just as nefarious in their self-aggrandizement of personal ambition. Would to God there were another Elijah in the wings to put themout of their misery, too...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:28 AM on 05/31/2008
- ultrabop I'm a Fan of ultrabop 15 fans permalink
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In reference to another Ahab, the Captain...the historical continuity is quite poignant as Hillary now finds herself strapped by her own harpoon lines to the Great White Whale. And the whale is going down...

who is the great white whale? help me here...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:36 AM on 05/31/2008
- Mr. Cobb I'm a Fan of Mr. Cobb 5 fans permalink

Didn't Hillary "incinerate every man, woman, child and blade of grass in Iran" Clinton lose already?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:25 AM on 05/31/2008
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Official Description:"Harpies had female torsos melded with vulture parts; the name harpy is derived from the Greek word that means "snatcher"

Sound familiar?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:25 AM on 05/31/2008
- Thurber I'm a Fan of Thurber 16 fans permalink

"Since Obama did not appear on the ballot at all, there are no delegates pledged to him. Hillary won 55 percent, while "uncommitted" took 40 percent, and the rest went to minor candidates."

Wrong! You Imply that minor candidates won some delegates in MI. It is not true. No other candidate reached the 15% minimum in any precinct in MI to win any delegates. Only "Uncommitted" and "Clinton" won delegates. Exit polls of voters showed that at least 10% of those Clinton voters would have voted for someone else IF THERE NAMES HAD BEEN ON THE BALLOT. The real intent of the MI voters, from the best analysis I've seen is very close to a 50-50 split between Clinton and Obama.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/05/adventures-in-lannyland.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:22 AM on 05/31/2008

Why not give 55% to Hillary and 40% to Obama? That's being generous to Obama since it assumes that all who voted for "uncommitted" were voting for him while clearly the 55% were voting FOR Hillary.

Florida counts as the votes were cast.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:26 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

the votes were cast under false pretenses. we were told they weren't going to count months before we entered that voting booth. it affected the outcome. they are illegitimate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:30 AM on 05/31/2008
- Thurber I'm a Fan of Thurber 16 fans permalink

because if you look at the exit polls, 11.6% of Clinton's voters would have also voted for Obama which would give you about a 50-45 split percentage wise, and breaking it down by county would give you almost exactly a 50-50 split of the delegates.

That is the most fair solution.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:38 AM on 05/31/2008
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