Clinton's Choice: Scorch The Earth Or Prepare To Fold

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First Posted: 05-30-08 07:01 PM   |   Updated: 06- 7-08 05:12 AM

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Hillary Clinton

Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning.

Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse compromise and keep the dispute over the Florida and Michigan delegations alive all the way to the August convention.

The second choice would be to go for a partial victory that would grant some legitimacy to the Florida and Michigan primaries. That, in turn, would strengthen Hillary Clinton's claim that she has won the popular vote by adding the 1,185,359 votes that she won in Florida and Michigan to her total, and the 569,041 votes Barack Obama won in the two states to his total - with a net Clinton pickup of 616,318 votes.

The Obama forces face a similarly tough set of choices: whether to agree to a compromise tilted in Clinton's favor in order to resolve the issue and prevent a convention floor fight, or go to the mat in an attempt to gain as many possible delegates out of the deal as possible.

On the surface, the Clinton forces have a weak hand, their own representatives on the 30-member RBC split between the goal of winning the nomination and refusing to push the rules to the breaking point.

That does not, however, guarantee that Clinton will emerge the loser. Instead, the RBC session could well reach an impasse, with no majority emerging for any solution to the issues of seating the disputed Florida and Michigan delegations.

That outcome would have the potential benefit to Clinton of having an issue to raise at the Denver convention in August. If, as some Clinton backers continue to hope, a new controversy emerges to damage Obama's bid along the lines of Jeremiah Wright's videotaped sermons, having a procedural vote on hand can prove to be a vehicle to force more debate and to raise more doubts.

Today, less than 24 hours from the start of the RBC session, some Clinton loyalists on the Rules Committee are publicly questioning whether they would support Clinton's demand for seating all the Florida and Michigan delegates with full voting rights.

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Donald Fowler, a former chairman of the Democratic National Committee and the South Carolina Democratic Party, said that in the case of the 210-member Florida delegation elected on January 29, "I'm going to have to think long and hard before I support the position that we won't settle for anything less than 100 percent. There are institutional concerns that have to be respected."

Instead, Fowler indicated he is inclined to back seating the Florida delegates with the proviso that they get only half a vote each. The case of Michigan, where Obama did not appear on the January 15 primary ballot, is a far more difficult state to find an acceptable solution for, Fowler noted.

Another key pro-Clinton member of the RBC, Elaine Kaymark, holds similar concerns to Fowler but, in a brief phone interview as her plane was about to take off from Boston to Washington, she would only say "I don't know yet," in response to questions about how she intends to vote.

The Democratic Party in 2007 voted to strip Michigan and Florida of all their convention delegates if they went ahead with plans to hold January primaries in violation of party rules prohibiting contests before February 5, with exceptions for Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada. Florida and Michigan went ahead anyway, and Clinton won the popular vote in both states.

Since then, everyone, including Clinton and Obama, have agreed that both populous and highly important battleground states should have some representation at the convention in order to prevent alienating voters in Michigan and Florida, potentially fatally damaging the chances of the Democratic nominee in November.

While the Clinton forces are divided, that does not mean that the Obama backers will emerge winners.

Obama's operatives have pointedly avoided explicit descriptions of their goals at the RBC session - "We're of course going to and have been working towards a fair and equitable resolution to the seating of the delegations," said spokesman Bill Burton.

In a conference call earlier this week, Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said "we've been clear for some time now that we're open to some compromise that's fair," adding: "the attention of both the voters and the parties is quickly turning toward the general election so we're hoping that, you know, there can be some reasonable resolution on Saturday."

Other sources, however, say that the Obama campaign would accept the Florida half-vote solution, which would give Clinton a net gain of roughly 19 delegates -- no where near enough to catch up to Obama.

The more difficult issue for Obama and Clinton is the 156-member Michigan delegation. Since Obama did not appear on the ballot at all, there are no delegates pledged to him. Hillary won 55 percent, while "uncommitted" took 40 percent, and the rest went to minor candidates.

A number of Obama's supporters contend that at least 40 percent of the Michigan delegates should be assigned to him. The proposal they are actually preparing to press would be to declare the Michigan contest to be an unfair test, and seat all the delegates, splitting them right down the middle, 50-50, between Clinton and Obama.

In the case of Michigan, however, the Clinton forces appear to be unanimous in their view that she should get at least 55 percent of the state's delegate votes. They are, in addition, deeply skeptical of, if not explicitly opposed to, the assignment of any Michigan delegate votes to Obama.

Clinton supporters Harold Ickes, her chief delegate hunter, and Fowler - both masters of party rules - contend that delegates chosen by voters casting ballots for "uncommitted" cannot be assigned to a specific candidate by the Rules Committee.

They argue that to do so would be to impute an unknowable motivation on the part of the voter, a theoretically dangerous step for any political body to take.

"Giving us no delegates in Michigan," Plouffe countered, would not be "terribly reasonable."

Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning. Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse comprom...
Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning. Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse comprom...
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- Kalima I'm a Fan of Kalima 74 fans permalink
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SaulGood, because of your link, I am still awake and thank you. I have just added C-Span
to my bookmarks and keep popping back.Could­n't all this thanking, bowing and appreciation,
be left for the end, like movie credits?
Now I'm really grumpy about differing time zones. Get started already, we are waiting for
this reverse coronation to begin. Trolls, hold your tongues.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:19 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

aw, you are most welcome, kalima!! just don't be cursing me in the morning when you are even grumpier!! lol

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:26 AM on 05/31/2008
- Kalima I'm a Fan of Kalima 74 fans permalink
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I promise, I won't cuss you at anytime but seriously thank you. I have felt
so out of the loop, now it's my chance to see things for myself, even if the
screen is only 4cm by 3cm. I'm sure that is not your fault. I will fade in
minutes, while still listening to people who think it is more important to
mention family and friends, before deciding who will be the democratic
nominee. Another soap opera, where we have to wait until next week?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:38 AM on 05/31/2008

Does anyone else think it's ironic that after 8 years of Bush breaking the laws, ignoring the laws and bending the laws, that Hillary want to be nominated by rewarding two states who broke, bent and twisted the rules?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:15 AM on 05/31/2008
- SCG I'm a Fan of SCG 111 fans permalink
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No, rather enlightening.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:17 AM on 05/31/2008
- k6007 I'm a Fan of k6007 230 fans permalink
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There is a reason bill spent more time since his adm., with the Bushes, rather than people like Carter. Birds of a feather...­....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:20 AM on 05/31/2008
- nunzia I'm a Fan of nunzia 31 fans permalink

Do yourself a favor. Instead of reading this junk, turn on c-span and watch the DNC cmte meeting now. Howard Dean was eloquent just now. He said that after the way he was treated by the party, he was on the phone with Al Gore. Dean was pacing the floor in the dark, saying over and over again, "why should I stay in this party, after what's been done to me?"
And Gore said, "Howard, this isn't about you; it's about your country". Dean then noted that came from Al Gore who had the presidency snatched from him by 5 intellectually bankrupt supreme court members.
Those of you who say you'll vote for McCain are saying that you will vote for more people on the supreme court like those 5, that you will vote against women's right to choose, that you will vote for more war, war, war, and that you don't give a damn about this country's economy or any part of its future.
Think. A vote for McCain is a vote to continue Bushco.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:13 AM on 05/31/2008
- jdenham I'm a Fan of jdenham 7 fans permalink

It is amazing that Hillary will fight the Democratic party to the death , but when it comes to fighting george Bush or the Republicans we have hardly heard a peep out of her.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:12 AM on 05/31/2008

PERFECT

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:20 AM on 05/31/2008
- Mr. Cobb I'm a Fan of Mr. Cobb 5 fans permalink

She's never said a discouraging word about McCain or Lieberman.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:41 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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The Democratic Party should write a letter to Hillary Clinton, demanding she pay all those vendors that she is stiffing. It is a total embarrassment to see the former First Lady not paying her bills.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:10 AM on 05/31/2008
- pupbayer I'm a Fan of pupbayer 23 fans permalink

Nah. We'll let Obama do it with the money he has left over after buying superdelegates.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:21 AM on 05/31/2008
- Kalima I'm a Fan of Kalima 74 fans permalink
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Have you taken time off to view your face in a mirror lately?
Sourpuss? Sauerkraut?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:53 AM on 05/31/2008
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It does demean her message of fighting for the little guy/gal doesn't it?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:28 AM on 05/31/2008
- NightRider I'm a Fan of NightRider 5 fans permalink

Can someone tell me what will happen in 2012 primary with Florida and Michigan? Do they get to keep their "moved-up primary dates"?

I know everyone is deliberating about what to do now but if we give them credit for moving up, what's to stop other states from doing so in the future then argue that their votes will have to count?

Help please!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:08 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

ahhh, someone with a kid, eh? lol

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:17 AM on 05/31/2008
- maxfusion I'm a Fan of maxfusion 12 fans permalink

Fight on Hillary, you are the face of the American woman. You represent everything that is the American woman. American women owe everything to you. You are the queen. Fight on, you go girl.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:06 AM on 05/31/2008

She's the face of the American woman?

American women here, do you agree?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:09 AM on 05/31/2008
- pacats I'm a Fan of pacats 4 fans permalink

As a group of people we are not monolithic. It will not take away from any one person if someone has a different point of view. Many people admire Hillary, for different reasons. As many people admire other women for other reasons.
Allow people to be where they are, and move forward when they are ready. In America, everyone would like to imagine some form of entitlement based on their experience our country. The reality is that, while we are allowed to fight against each other over some misnomer or another, we still do not have an equal say about the policies that impact our country. Let's all join together, agree to disagree and work towards a better America with fair treatment for everyone.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:33 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

oh, good lord, cp!!! no flippin' way!!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:35 AM on 05/31/2008
- Waltb31 I'm a Fan of Waltb31 28 fans permalink
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This must be sarcasm. OK I fell for it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:10 AM on 05/31/2008

Walt~

I fell for it too.

Apologies to Max from me!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:16 AM on 05/31/2008
- qdog112 I'm a Fan of qdog112 69 fans permalink
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If Hillary is the"face of the American woman"

i AM EMBARRASSED FOR THE AMERICAN WOMAN.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:10 AM on 05/31/2008

Wrong! She is the antithesis of everything that it means to be a self-respecting woman. She is ego-maniacal, narcissistic, and a chameleon who changes her persona to suit whatever environment that she's in.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:10 AM on 05/31/2008

"You are the queen."

America fought a Revolution and people DIED so that we would not have monarchs.

You are in the wrong country.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:12 AM on 05/31/2008

Quoting a CNN news article Oct. 9, 2007:
"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Five Democratic presidential candidates Tuesday sought to officially withdraw from Michigan's January 15 primary, rendering the event virtually insignificant. Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois, Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware, New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina, and Rep. Dennis Kucinich of Ohio all announced the move Tuesday, the deadline for filing such paperwork…. Under Democratic National Committee rules, only Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina are allowed to hold primaries before February 5.
But Michigan Democrats moved their state's primary date to January in an effort to increase the state's influence in the nominee selection process, arguing Iowa and New Hampshire unfairly dominate the process. The five candidates, as well as Sens. Hillary Clinton of New York and Chris Dodd of Connecticut, had already agreed not to campaign in Michigan and Florida, both of which bucked party rules by scheduling their nominating contests before February 5".
What part of "rules are rules" do some Dems not understand? And why is there a discussion now after all of these Dem candidates, including HRC, agreed to abide by the original DNC stated rules regarding MI and FL?
Quoting this article, “Clinton's campaign is calling for the results of the primaries to be honored and the delegates awarded based on the results”. That is IMO preposterous, and I believe the DNC will see it that way.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:06 AM on 05/31/2008

The rules only apply if they are favorably towards the Clintons, otherwise throw them out.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:12 AM on 05/31/2008
- k6007 I'm a Fan of k6007 230 fans permalink
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I am sick and tired, of being sick and tired of the clintons. If you don't like the rules, break 'em. If the truth doesn't serve, lie. bush/clinton doctrine.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:06 AM on 05/31/2008
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A descent and diplomatic speech by Gov/Dr Dean.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:05 AM on 05/31/2008
- pupbayer I'm a Fan of pupbayer 23 fans permalink

Yeah, but just when you think he has a clue he'll turn out and say something really stupid. Just wait.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:10 AM on 05/31/2008
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Hey sort of like you. But I rarely have to wait more than a millisecond with you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:30 AM on 05/31/2008

Alright, I did my part and donated $15 to Obama at 9:30 ET. Let's hope that helps.

(Hey-- my last paycheck was 4/hr for a 48 hr shift. I think that's a substantial donation!)

If Hillary wants scorched Earth, bring it on. She has a lot more people than just Obama to contend with.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:05 AM on 05/31/2008
- SCG I'm a Fan of SCG 111 fans permalink
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Yep.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:12 AM on 05/31/2008

Just think....i­f every Obama supporter donated $15 what the impact would be! Thank you for helping us with this movement. :-)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:13 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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I like how Howard Dean mentioned the campaigns following the rules, and also thanking the 48 states that did follow the rules.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:05 AM on 05/31/2008
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As one of the other 48, I appreciate the props (shouto ut, recognition, what-the-eff-ever)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:31 AM on 05/31/2008

Clinton indeed has a weak hand. She can win only in the negative sense: by holding out against a compromise with the RBC, by moving the goal posts, or waiting for another loony preacher to use the moment to their loony and irrelevant advantage.

Compromise seems not to be in her game plan. This is indeed about entitlement and the sense of acute disappointment she must feel. I can empathize but can't condone it.

As a newly registered Independent, with each day I'm more comfortable with that decision.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:05 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

As a fellow independent, this is actually the more important battle, not November's.

Either McCain or Obama would be better presidents than Hillary.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:11 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaintZak I'm a Fan of SaintZak 22 fans permalink

I predict the Clintons are in for a major rebuke. Her supporters on the committee are openly wavering. The Party wants this to end, so they can concentrate on the general election. Not only the White House, but Congress as well, is at stake for them. My guess: the clintons get slapped down today and the super delegates will make their move as soon as the primaries end on June 3rd. Its over then.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:59 AM on 05/31/2008

My guess, the Dems kick the can down the road and come up with half a loaf.

Hillary takes her show to Denver as doubts about Obama continue to grow and buyers remorse sets in.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:06 AM on 05/31/2008

Brave-no doubts about Obama here -no remorse.

Obama will be the Democrat Candidate for the Office of President of the United States. and wipe the floor with McCain aka "The Gaffer"

Perhaps Clinton can distinquish herself in the Senate for the rest of her term and hope that she gets elected again. Talk about remorse____ glad she is not my Senator.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:21 AM on 05/31/2008
- pupbayer I'm a Fan of pupbayer 23 fans permalink

IF Clinton's supporters do go to the dark side, it will be because they are lifelong, dedicated, professional democrats and are doing so for what they believe is the good of the party. I don't think it can necessarily be viewed as non-support of Clinton.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:19 AM on 05/31/2008
- katzooks I'm a Fan of katzooks 8 fans permalink

One argument I've yet to hear from the Hillary campaign and her supporters, beyond such bon mots as, "Tough nuts for Obama, his name wasn't on the ballot" is the answer to this question:

How do you argue so vehemently, on one hand, against disenfranchising voters, while arguing, on the other hand, to disenfranchise Obama's Michigan supporters (and they do exist!) by awarding Obama zero votes, zero delegates in Michigan?

And while you're at it, perhaps you could also explain how you square up with disenfranchising the voters in up to 13 of the caucus states by disallowing their election results in the final tallies for popular vote and delegates: Alaska, Colorado, Idaho, Kansas, Minnesota, North Dakota, Iowa, Nevada, Nebraska, Washington, Maine, Wyoming, Texas?

Obama won all but 1 of the 13 caucus states -- and he won by overwhelming majorites in most. Were the shoe on the other foot, would you be vehemently arguing for, rather than against, the rights of voters in these states to be counted?

Perhaps I would better understand your argument to give Hillary the lead in popular and delegate votes -- which could be accomplished only by disallowing the election results in up to 14 states -- if you would simply state the argument for me, out right. Thank you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:58 AM on 05/31/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

That camp does not see anything beyond the tunnel vision of their agenda, whether it be Hillary making herself president at all costs, or women in general who think having female body parts is the top prereq for the office "this time".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:03 AM on 05/31/2008

All states are equal, but some states are more equal than others - hrc

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:05 AM on 05/31/2008
- lotuslike I'm a Fan of lotuslike 8 fans permalink

great post!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:08 AM on 05/31/2008

As one of those caucus voters who doesn't count, I resent HRC's dismissal very much. I went out in knee-deep snow and miserable cold to wait in line for a half hour and spend an hour with fellow dems choosing candidates and issue positions. I thought I was being the kind of good citizen I was taught to be. I thought that was what democracy was all about. The Clintons clearly onlly care about themselves. Let's hope the DNC and her supporters finally put an end to this.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:02 AM on 05/31/2008
- katzooks I'm a Fan of katzooks 8 fans permalink

Update, 3 hours later:

So far, no answer from any HRC supporters on my question(s). Pretty much what I expected, as there's no real defense for the indefensible.

I do appreciate hearing from others who share my frustration over these inequities.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:05 PM on 05/31/2008
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