Clinton's Choice: Scorch The Earth Or Prepare To Fold

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First Posted: 05-30-08 07:01 PM   |   Updated: 06- 7-08 05:12 AM

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Hillary Clinton

Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning.

Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse compromise and keep the dispute over the Florida and Michigan delegations alive all the way to the August convention.

The second choice would be to go for a partial victory that would grant some legitimacy to the Florida and Michigan primaries. That, in turn, would strengthen Hillary Clinton's claim that she has won the popular vote by adding the 1,185,359 votes that she won in Florida and Michigan to her total, and the 569,041 votes Barack Obama won in the two states to his total - with a net Clinton pickup of 616,318 votes.

The Obama forces face a similarly tough set of choices: whether to agree to a compromise tilted in Clinton's favor in order to resolve the issue and prevent a convention floor fight, or go to the mat in an attempt to gain as many possible delegates out of the deal as possible.

On the surface, the Clinton forces have a weak hand, their own representatives on the 30-member RBC split between the goal of winning the nomination and refusing to push the rules to the breaking point.

That does not, however, guarantee that Clinton will emerge the loser. Instead, the RBC session could well reach an impasse, with no majority emerging for any solution to the issues of seating the disputed Florida and Michigan delegations.

That outcome would have the potential benefit to Clinton of having an issue to raise at the Denver convention in August. If, as some Clinton backers continue to hope, a new controversy emerges to damage Obama's bid along the lines of Jeremiah Wright's videotaped sermons, having a procedural vote on hand can prove to be a vehicle to force more debate and to raise more doubts.

Today, less than 24 hours from the start of the RBC session, some Clinton loyalists on the Rules Committee are publicly questioning whether they would support Clinton's demand for seating all the Florida and Michigan delegates with full voting rights.

Story continues below

Donald Fowler, a former chairman of the Democratic National Committee and the South Carolina Democratic Party, said that in the case of the 210-member Florida delegation elected on January 29, "I'm going to have to think long and hard before I support the position that we won't settle for anything less than 100 percent. There are institutional concerns that have to be respected."

Instead, Fowler indicated he is inclined to back seating the Florida delegates with the proviso that they get only half a vote each. The case of Michigan, where Obama did not appear on the January 15 primary ballot, is a far more difficult state to find an acceptable solution for, Fowler noted.

Another key pro-Clinton member of the RBC, Elaine Kaymark, holds similar concerns to Fowler but, in a brief phone interview as her plane was about to take off from Boston to Washington, she would only say "I don't know yet," in response to questions about how she intends to vote.

The Democratic Party in 2007 voted to strip Michigan and Florida of all their convention delegates if they went ahead with plans to hold January primaries in violation of party rules prohibiting contests before February 5, with exceptions for Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada. Florida and Michigan went ahead anyway, and Clinton won the popular vote in both states.

Since then, everyone, including Clinton and Obama, have agreed that both populous and highly important battleground states should have some representation at the convention in order to prevent alienating voters in Michigan and Florida, potentially fatally damaging the chances of the Democratic nominee in November.

While the Clinton forces are divided, that does not mean that the Obama backers will emerge winners.

Obama's operatives have pointedly avoided explicit descriptions of their goals at the RBC session - "We're of course going to and have been working towards a fair and equitable resolution to the seating of the delegations," said spokesman Bill Burton.

In a conference call earlier this week, Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said "we've been clear for some time now that we're open to some compromise that's fair," adding: "the attention of both the voters and the parties is quickly turning toward the general election so we're hoping that, you know, there can be some reasonable resolution on Saturday."

Other sources, however, say that the Obama campaign would accept the Florida half-vote solution, which would give Clinton a net gain of roughly 19 delegates -- no where near enough to catch up to Obama.

The more difficult issue for Obama and Clinton is the 156-member Michigan delegation. Since Obama did not appear on the ballot at all, there are no delegates pledged to him. Hillary won 55 percent, while "uncommitted" took 40 percent, and the rest went to minor candidates.

A number of Obama's supporters contend that at least 40 percent of the Michigan delegates should be assigned to him. The proposal they are actually preparing to press would be to declare the Michigan contest to be an unfair test, and seat all the delegates, splitting them right down the middle, 50-50, between Clinton and Obama.

In the case of Michigan, however, the Clinton forces appear to be unanimous in their view that she should get at least 55 percent of the state's delegate votes. They are, in addition, deeply skeptical of, if not explicitly opposed to, the assignment of any Michigan delegate votes to Obama.

Clinton supporters Harold Ickes, her chief delegate hunter, and Fowler - both masters of party rules - contend that delegates chosen by voters casting ballots for "uncommitted" cannot be assigned to a specific candidate by the Rules Committee.

They argue that to do so would be to impute an unknowable motivation on the part of the voter, a theoretically dangerous step for any political body to take.

"Giving us no delegates in Michigan," Plouffe countered, would not be "terribly reasonable."

Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning. Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse comprom...
Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning. Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse comprom...
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- qdog112 I'm a Fan of qdog112 71 fans permalink
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If there was any time for Democrats to mimic Republicans - NOW IS THE TIME.

This needs to get done today with firmness and FINALITY!

They must swash the other campaign ONCE AND FOR ALL for the good of the party & the NATION -

lest we prove the saying that ONLY DEMOCRATS CAN SNATCH DEFEAT FROM THE JAWS OF VICTORY.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:57 AM on 05/31/2008

This is really ticking me off. I am outraged because I live in Florida and I was told that my vote wouldn't count anyway. I would have voted for Obama and I know alot of others who would have as well. What is "unfair" is to NOW say they are going to count these votes and really act as if the Florida and Michigan primary's reflect any "true" will of the people. I am really pissed. They should have a revote if they really gave a crap about Florida and Michigan.

Hillary thinks we are stupid. We are not. For her to stir up anger by comparing this primary to the 2000 elections that were stolen from us is disgusting and is only going to divide the party come general election time. If all hillary supporters think Obama stole her election, that will bring a new term to the overly used term "bitter" come november. I can't stand Hillary anymore and I hope her political career is over.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:56 AM on 05/31/2008
- mystic I'm a Fan of mystic 20 fans permalink

Would anyone attribute the following statement to Hillary:
"Manic enthusiasm with intense paranoia, has led to angry outbursts and bizarre thought pattern and loss of contact with reality".
Her Bosnia story and assassination statments were bizarre and not centered with reality. So is her bizarre desire to cause party disunity "just to save face" . Many attribute such thought processes merely politically aggressive "to be testicular", saying anything to win but could they be part of a disturbed thought process? If so, has anyone given consideration to a Bipolar Disorder, or some other psychiatrtic disorder where a disturbed thought process is symptomatic?
I am not a psychiatrist, but would be interested in professional opinion. There is something about Hillary that is seriously wrong and I believe it may have some psychiatric basis.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:56 AM on 05/31/2008
- suntzu I'm a Fan of suntzu 16 fans permalink
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Scorched earth or prepare to fold?

Why do we assume that these choices are mutually exclusive? My guess is that Clinton will do both.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:55 AM on 05/31/2008
- Roose I'm a Fan of Roose 9 fans permalink

Now she's a member of Indian Nation, she'll be able to DRINK and GAMBLE.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:51 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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She sure hasn't been shy about her drinking lately. Last thing we need is another drunk in the White House.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:54 AM on 05/31/2008
- SCG I'm a Fan of SCG 110 fans permalink
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I'm so tired of the shameless, disingenuous Clinton's and their divisive sore loser blackmail.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:51 AM on 05/31/2008
- GravitonX I'm a Fan of GravitonX 67 fans permalink
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BREAKING NEWS

3 million votes from the American Settlement of Liberia have just been awarded to Barack Obama's vote total giving him a 3.5 million vote lead of challenger, Hillary Clinton. In a last minute effort to be fair to any and every possible Democrat, the DNC has decided that the will of the people in Liberia whose history with the United States goes back to 1822 (well before Puerto Rico back to 1898) will be represented in the Democratic Primary Contest.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:50 AM on 05/31/2008
- qdog112 I'm a Fan of qdog112 71 fans permalink
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Why not Ireland?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 AM on 05/31/2008
    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:11 AM on 05/31/2008

You know what is truly amazing?

The fact that we as US citizens have the unmitigated gall to chastise and talk down to other countries and their political operations and often times shenanigans, while we turn a completely blind eye to our own.

Does anyone else find it disturbing that HRC's campaign has been caught red-handed attempting to buy super-delegate votes. And, after being outed we the public get informed that that is not illegal!

HRC and her mercenaries are hijacking the Democratic party and no one seems able or willing to stand-up and force them to stop. I mean, c'mon urging people to protest at a closed door meeting , over an issue that she signed off of, before the nomination races began and has gone on public rcord as discounting, but being the trickster that she is--playing it both ways, by being the only candidate to not remove her name from Michigan's ballot and de-facto campaigning in Florida (she held several fund-raisers there, including the huge rally the night of the primary itself)??

How she lied that she was experienced, even under fire then when it comes out that it never happened, ANYWHERE! She blows it off as just mis-speaking...

The list goes on

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:50 AM on 05/31/2008
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I agree, we (the US) have no right to force what is passed as democracy to other countries. Lead by example not by the barrel of a gun. We aren't the shiniest of examples at this point.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 AM on 05/31/2008

Oh, YES, CT!

I vote for you as VP!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:12 AM on 05/31/2008

Not at ANY point (I know, it's shoking to you). Read your history, again; this time try to read a book not written by a white US American.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 AM on 05/31/2008
- pupbayer I'm a Fan of pupbayer 23 fans permalink

You're funny! You gave me my first laugh of the morning! Thanks!

Everyone, except you evidently, knows that Obama has been the one dishing out so much money for delegates. Do a search! Has Clinton given money to delegates? Yes. But she hasn't given nearly as much to nearly as many. Now, to be fair, that is probably because her campaign doesn't have as much money as Obama. But that doesn't change the fact that Obama is the big "buyer" of superdelegates. Now the other fact is that a much larger percentage of those who have received money from Obama have endorsed him compared to those who received money from Clinton. That may mean Obama chose better, it may mean those he gave to are less scrupulous, whatever. But don't criticize Clinton for something Obama did on a much larger scale.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:16 AM on 05/31/2008
- mystic I'm a Fan of mystic 20 fans permalink

I agree, but bribery surely is bribery. Can you cite the source that said bribery in a political campaign is legal? And is there any leagl opinion on the matter? I'm not talking about legal political contributions which also consitute bribery, but that's another story. I was outraged when I read an attempt was made (and declined) by the HRC campaign to bribe a superdelegate with a million dollars.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:17 AM on 05/31/2008
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Yep. The truth here is startling - How on earth does this mangled process look to allies, potential allies, and others around the world? We should be able to see how badly this reflects upon a democratic process we should revere and that is supposedly a shining example for others to emulate.

So as main supporters and insiders of the Clinton's campaign argue openly for upending and ignoring rules of a party and a system that they themselves helped to establish, it reflects very badly not only upon them, but upon all of us, and our country. This is especially true when it is so blatantly obvious that they are doing so only for personal and political gain.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:28 AM on 05/31/2008
- LexLuthier I'm a Fan of LexLuthier 7 fans permalink
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I hope folks saw Kellygrrrls suggestion yesterday that we all send contributions to Obama's campaign as the meeting convened this a.m. Now is the time.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 AM on 05/31/2008

going to do that now, thanks for the reminder!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:50 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

does buying a shirt on his site count?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:52 AM on 05/31/2008
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Yes! All purchases from the 'Obama Store' count as donations, dollar-for-dollar. Good way to support the campaign with both funds and increased visibility.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:00 AM on 05/31/2008
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Popular vote reality check.

Popular Vote Total 16,690,219 49.1% 16,229,691 47.7% Obama +460,528 +1.4%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 17,024,303 49.1% 16,453,553 47.5% Obama +570,750 +1.6%

Popular Vote (w/FL) 17,266,433 48.3% 17,100,677 47.8% Obama +165,756 +0.5%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 17,600,517 48.3% 17,324,539 47.6% Obama +275,978 +0.7%

Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)** 17,266,433 47.5% 17,428,986 47.9% Clinton +162,553 +0.45%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 17,600,517 47.6% 17,652,848 47.7% Clinton +52,331 +0.14%

The most fair popular vote count by far is including FL and estimating the popular votes in IA, NV, ME and WA and not including MI. That gives Obama an insurmountable over 275,000 popular vote lead. Puerto Rico should not count because they don't vote in the general election. There will be far less than 275,000 in the actual states left in MT and SD. This rightly will give Obama the most states won, the most pledge delegates, the most super delegates, the most total delegates and the popular vote victory. Don't let Hillary make her bogus popular vote count stand.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:48 AM on 05/31/2008

Acutally yours is the Obama Truthiness Check.

Why not MI? After all Obama WITHDREW. But since you are cherry picking - just throw out the results for WV, PA, KY IN. as well as CA, TX, NY, NJ, MA, OH since they are so trivial He won Idaho, Wyoming Mississippi, and Alabama!!!.

The priggish mentality of the DNC and Obama cadre will sink us in November.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:33 AM on 05/31/2008

Lotuslike,

Do you work in advertising? I do. And you are being misleading! He could have chosen a regional cable buys. He also stayed on the ballot because it was in play. Edwards was still a candidate, yet he chose to pull himself off the ballot. You can't pull the wool over my eyes! I'm not naive on this issue at all.

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/05/cable_nets_prime_for_election.php

Then there is the uncertainty about the exact states in play and the prospect that many more could be in the mix this time. Buying national at least initially could allow the campaigns to postpone decisions on where to target; with more states in play, national becomes more efficient, and that’s true for both candidates.
“The likelihood that this year there will be many more target states makes it more likely for a national cable strategy … because it’s cheaper than buying [local] cable in all the target states,” said Mark McKinnon, director of the McCain campaign’s Foxhole Productions ad team. _Spokesmen from the Clinton and Obama teams did not return calls.
Finally, some of the cable industry changes over the four years since the last presidential election—the growth of satellite dish service and the entry of phone companies into the “cable” area—raise concerns about voters being missed in spot cable buys, a situation that is avoidable with national buys.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:27 AM on 05/31/2008

QUESTION:

Why did Obama keep his name on the ballot in FLA. and why did he run cable spots in FLA. if he knew that FLA. wouldn't matter? I think its a reasonable question to ask Obamanites. And why hasn't this question been asked before by the MSM? Was Obama planning a scorched earth policy too just in case? Did he think he had more of a chance in FLA. as opposed to Michigan? Can someone answer that question please. And Obamanites let's not pretend it was a 'mistake', Obama doesn't make 'technical' mistakes; I mean just ask Alice Palmer.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:46 AM on 05/31/2008
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He did not have time to take it off.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

it was a national campaign run on msnbc and cnn. he asked them both to remove them from florida, and they both refused.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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"why did he run cable spots in FLA."

Stop with the spin. It was 2 weeks before Feb. 5th, when around 20 states voted, he decided to run national tv commercials, which happened to play in Florida. He even went so far as to get permission to run these national commercials.

Grow up, and ask intellectually honest questions.

This low-information appeal of Clinton and her supporters gives Democrats serious pause, and that reflects in the delegate count. This is part of the reason why she has been rejected by her own party.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:50 AM on 05/31/2008
- MsLiz I'm a Fan of MsLiz 112 fans permalink
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I hadn't been able to articulate your last paragraph, but it sums up much of what offends me about HRC. She spins to us, Democrats, and expects us to believe it. I have had enough of presidents who can not tell the truth.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:39 AM on 05/31/2008
- qdog112 I'm a Fan of qdog112 71 fans permalink
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It's beyond that. What we have is what we have.

There must be sanctions for the violations of FL and MI.

Let's do it and go home.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:51 AM on 05/31/2008
- Manni I'm a Fan of Manni 3 fans permalink

These Obamites are thinking that we Hillary supporters are going to vote for him.....just cause they steal the nomination. Pffft!

Huffington Post has made sure that I vote for Mc Cain if Obama is nominated!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 AM on 05/31/2008

YeeHaw.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:55 AM on 05/31/2008
- Waltb31 I'm a Fan of Waltb31 35 fans permalink
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Hillary has lost. Might as well vote for McCain now. Tell Rush not this time.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:58 AM on 05/31/2008
- SiberianRat I'm a Fan of SiberianRat 138 fans permalink
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How has he stolen the nomination??? How is voting for McCain going to help Hillary?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:01 AM on 05/31/2008
- MossyOak I'm a Fan of MossyOak 62 fans permalink
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I don't understand the logic of Hillary fans who won't vote for Obama. Which means you'll vote for McCain? I think the main reason Hillary didn't win the primary vote is because she's pro-war and too much like McCain in general, so you must be closet Republicans and you probably voted for Bush, twice. You ladies need to decide what's important... a woman president, or a president whose going to fix the mess you created when you voted for a Chimp.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:02 AM on 05/31/2008
- tubette I'm a Fan of tubette 8 fans permalink
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If you will vote for McCain, you obviously are voting for reasons other than policies and what is better for this country.... you would continue down the present course because your feelings are hurt? So sad.

I would vote for Clinton if Obama didn't win, and I don't even like her. BUT it's not about that.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:02 AM on 05/31/2008
- McChimp I'm a Fan of McChimp 162 fans permalink
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and the TV spots were part of a nationwide campaign which unfortunately included FL, and I think that it was a packaged deal... take it or leav it type thing.

Obama/Sebelius 08

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 AM on 05/31/2008
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Obama's campaign cleared this minor exception with the DNC before the ads ran.

Most of the networks where he had national ads running were able to exempt FL, so they weren't shown there. One or two networks won't allow such exemptions, so in those cases the ads ran in FL, with the advance approval of the DNC.

And bbbrecht is right -- they weren't allowed to take their names off the FL ballot.

However, Hillary was allowed to take her name off the MI ballot. She had promised too, but then 'changed her mind.'

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:05 AM on 05/31/2008

Do you know anything about buying TV time or is that an assumption on your part that it was a package deal? LOL. I know, and what you say is NOT TRUE AT ALL! There are different kinds of cable buys and options. He chose to have FLA. in the package. Why? Because FLA. was going to be St. Obama's scorched earth policy too. What a scene he could have made in FLA., if the shoe were on the other foot now, "voter suppression' in FLA.! The irony of it all, is that since he's ahead, 'voter suppression' is cool by him, just like it was in Chicago when he knocked Alice Palmer and that other guy off the ballot with his lawyers, on absolute BS 'technicalities' and ran unopposed. Yeah, that was Democracy, Democracy by 3rd World standards to run as the ONLY candidate, by knocking off a decent person like Alice Palmer who had supported his fledging ambitious career back then. Write your 1st book paint yourself as a 'hero', then undemocratically knock your opponents off the ballot with a bunch of lawyers. I was amazed that there was actual coverage of this event by CNN yesterday. I knew about this 'affair' a year ago. Too bad it was a little too late for those less informed, but then everybody's in the tank for St. Obama. The REZKO verdict is coming in, and its coming in guilty , I hear.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:09 AM on 05/31/2008
- abby4ever I'm a Fan of abby4ever 267 fans permalink
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Ever since Super Tuesday didn't go her way, Hillary and Bill have run a campaign of attrition. Wear everyone down. A blitz. Day after day of 'bombing' them into submission.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:46 AM on 05/31/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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"To my longstanding friends in the feminist community who have called out the media as being culturally sexist and misogynistic, it is time to help educate the American public about the corrosive impact of sexism in politics and elsewhere. But we can have this dialogue without using divisive language and political tactics that further threaten to divide our country and party. If another woman comes up to me in an airport and suggests Obama should wait his turn, I might scream, "Stop it!" This is not about who should be first, it's about who has the most delegates and who might make the best president of the United States."

- Donna Brazille

http://www.donnabrazile.com/viewNews.cfm?id=277

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:45 AM on 05/31/2008
- McChimp I'm a Fan of McChimp 162 fans permalink
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agree with Donna Brazile 100%.

It's not about the popular vote, it's the degates stupid!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 AM on 05/31/2008
- SCG I'm a Fan of SCG 110 fans permalink
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Exactly.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:54 AM on 05/31/2008
- RoSull I'm a Fan of RoSull 5 fans permalink

RBC meeting starts in 5 minutes. Let's hope an end to this nonsense begins today and ends completely on Tuesday.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:43 AM on 05/31/2008
- abby4ever I'm a Fan of abby4ever 267 fans permalink
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Starts in 5 minutes??? I was hoping it would be over by now---but I'm on London time, and forgot.

I am sick and tired of Bill and Hillary.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:47 AM on 05/31/2008
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Amen! Amen! Amen!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:50 AM on 05/31/2008

"he Obama forces face a similarly tough set of choices: whether to agree to a compromise tilted in Clinton's favor in order to resolve the issue and prevent a convention floor fight, or go to the mat in an attempt to gain as many possible delegates out of the deal as possible."

She is going to do both. Get the two states seated,then when she loses, she will still take the fight to the convention.

There are some people in this world you just have to put down. She is one of them. Compromise, rules, etc. won't work. Obama needs to quit worrying about keeping the party together and just concentrate on putting her down totally.

He is being way to nice to her.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:42 AM on 05/31/2008
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