Clinton's Choice: Scorch The Earth Or Prepare To Fold

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First Posted: 05-30-08 07:01 PM   |   Updated: 06- 7-08 05:12 AM

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Hillary Clinton

Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning.

Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse compromise and keep the dispute over the Florida and Michigan delegations alive all the way to the August convention.

The second choice would be to go for a partial victory that would grant some legitimacy to the Florida and Michigan primaries. That, in turn, would strengthen Hillary Clinton's claim that she has won the popular vote by adding the 1,185,359 votes that she won in Florida and Michigan to her total, and the 569,041 votes Barack Obama won in the two states to his total - with a net Clinton pickup of 616,318 votes.

The Obama forces face a similarly tough set of choices: whether to agree to a compromise tilted in Clinton's favor in order to resolve the issue and prevent a convention floor fight, or go to the mat in an attempt to gain as many possible delegates out of the deal as possible.

On the surface, the Clinton forces have a weak hand, their own representatives on the 30-member RBC split between the goal of winning the nomination and refusing to push the rules to the breaking point.

That does not, however, guarantee that Clinton will emerge the loser. Instead, the RBC session could well reach an impasse, with no majority emerging for any solution to the issues of seating the disputed Florida and Michigan delegations.

That outcome would have the potential benefit to Clinton of having an issue to raise at the Denver convention in August. If, as some Clinton backers continue to hope, a new controversy emerges to damage Obama's bid along the lines of Jeremiah Wright's videotaped sermons, having a procedural vote on hand can prove to be a vehicle to force more debate and to raise more doubts.

Today, less than 24 hours from the start of the RBC session, some Clinton loyalists on the Rules Committee are publicly questioning whether they would support Clinton's demand for seating all the Florida and Michigan delegates with full voting rights.

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Donald Fowler, a former chairman of the Democratic National Committee and the South Carolina Democratic Party, said that in the case of the 210-member Florida delegation elected on January 29, "I'm going to have to think long and hard before I support the position that we won't settle for anything less than 100 percent. There are institutional concerns that have to be respected."

Instead, Fowler indicated he is inclined to back seating the Florida delegates with the proviso that they get only half a vote each. The case of Michigan, where Obama did not appear on the January 15 primary ballot, is a far more difficult state to find an acceptable solution for, Fowler noted.

Another key pro-Clinton member of the RBC, Elaine Kaymark, holds similar concerns to Fowler but, in a brief phone interview as her plane was about to take off from Boston to Washington, she would only say "I don't know yet," in response to questions about how she intends to vote.

The Democratic Party in 2007 voted to strip Michigan and Florida of all their convention delegates if they went ahead with plans to hold January primaries in violation of party rules prohibiting contests before February 5, with exceptions for Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada. Florida and Michigan went ahead anyway, and Clinton won the popular vote in both states.

Since then, everyone, including Clinton and Obama, have agreed that both populous and highly important battleground states should have some representation at the convention in order to prevent alienating voters in Michigan and Florida, potentially fatally damaging the chances of the Democratic nominee in November.

While the Clinton forces are divided, that does not mean that the Obama backers will emerge winners.

Obama's operatives have pointedly avoided explicit descriptions of their goals at the RBC session - "We're of course going to and have been working towards a fair and equitable resolution to the seating of the delegations," said spokesman Bill Burton.

In a conference call earlier this week, Obama campaign manager David Plouffe said "we've been clear for some time now that we're open to some compromise that's fair," adding: "the attention of both the voters and the parties is quickly turning toward the general election so we're hoping that, you know, there can be some reasonable resolution on Saturday."

Other sources, however, say that the Obama campaign would accept the Florida half-vote solution, which would give Clinton a net gain of roughly 19 delegates -- no where near enough to catch up to Obama.

The more difficult issue for Obama and Clinton is the 156-member Michigan delegation. Since Obama did not appear on the ballot at all, there are no delegates pledged to him. Hillary won 55 percent, while "uncommitted" took 40 percent, and the rest went to minor candidates.

A number of Obama's supporters contend that at least 40 percent of the Michigan delegates should be assigned to him. The proposal they are actually preparing to press would be to declare the Michigan contest to be an unfair test, and seat all the delegates, splitting them right down the middle, 50-50, between Clinton and Obama.

In the case of Michigan, however, the Clinton forces appear to be unanimous in their view that she should get at least 55 percent of the state's delegate votes. They are, in addition, deeply skeptical of, if not explicitly opposed to, the assignment of any Michigan delegate votes to Obama.

Clinton supporters Harold Ickes, her chief delegate hunter, and Fowler - both masters of party rules - contend that delegates chosen by voters casting ballots for "uncommitted" cannot be assigned to a specific candidate by the Rules Committee.

They argue that to do so would be to impute an unknowable motivation on the part of the voter, a theoretically dangerous step for any political body to take.

"Giving us no delegates in Michigan," Plouffe countered, would not be "terribly reasonable."

Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning. Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse comprom...
Clinton campaign operatives face a crucial decision Saturday morning. Their first alternative is to go into the Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) meeting with a scorched earth strategy: refuse comprom...
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- Teritt I'm a Fan of Teritt 9 fans permalink

I guess if the Clinton's get their way - after they agreed the states wouldn't count in the beginning - they are setting a precedent that rules really are made to be broken. Haven't we had enough of that with the current administration?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:13 AM on 05/31/2008
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The Clintons will not get their way.

They will be shocked to learn later today that they no longer have any real control or power in the DNC.

We are going to learn whether or not Bill and Hillary are really Democrats.
It should prove very revealing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:15 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

i hope you are right.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:19 AM on 05/31/2008
- arkgrfx61 I'm a Fan of arkgrfx61 4 fans permalink

HEy Thunderclap - I saw that you have in on the know through a friend....­that is awesome! Thank you for making me feel very confident that my gut feelings are correct.
I'm interested in seeing what will prove so revealing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:37 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

i have. and i have already had to answer the question of "if the president can lie, why can't i" to my kids - now we have to deal with why we follow rules and why we should have good sportsmanship - even though someone running for president doesn't. maybe this is what she was talking about when she said "it takes a village."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:19 AM on 05/31/2008

Two comments from the panel on CNN:

Jeffrey Toobin: it comes down to a choice between rules and chaos
Another commenter: asked why, if Obama is ahead, why not give Clinton everything she wants? Said we could all ensure peace and harmony in our homes if WE GAVE OUR CHILDREN EVERYTHING THEY WANTED.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:40 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

oh, no they di'int!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:45 AM on 05/31/2008
- Cheryllou I'm a Fan of Cheryllou 4 fans permalink

You know what I can't understand, why Hillary didn't make a fuss about this from the get go? Why now? however this ends up, Hillary's supporters is going to feel that she didn't get what she deserves. It's a sad day for democrats to see this spectacle, when all of this could have been avoided months ago. She should have been against it from the beginning, not now.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:07 AM on 05/31/2008
- Flagal I'm a Fan of Flagal 7 fans permalink

Hillary started her "fuss" when she started losing and realized she was not the inevitable nominee.
It was a rude awakening.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:10 AM on 05/31/2008

Hillary and McCain are one and the same . McCain proposes a bill and vote against it. Questions Obama's knowledge on foreign policies and commitement to the troops,when Obama fires back,He goes "You have no right to question me on millitary issues."

I mean look at Harold ickes,he is a DNC committee member,VOTED for MI and FL NOT to count at all.But now he is leading the argument of civil right abuse if they werent counted. The Motherfucker just declared himself an anti-civil right.Beca­use he VOTED for the what he now calls anti-civil rights.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:52 AM on 05/31/2008
- Flagal I'm a Fan of Flagal 7 fans permalink

Both states need to be punished. If not then it sets a precedent that any state which moves its primary up can do so without consequence.
What is so difficult to understand about that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:05 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

for hillary supporters? that she's toast.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:08 AM on 05/31/2008
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Now let's try to avoid reason and logic, these are US voters we are talking about.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:10 AM on 05/31/2008
- falcao I'm a Fan of falcao 3 fans permalink

Hillary Clinton has proven herself to be a big bore.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:57 AM on 05/31/2008
- oncethere I'm a Fan of oncethere 19 fans permalink

Yeah, but she has perfect hair and that's what counts.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:01 AM on 05/31/2008
- Flagal I'm a Fan of Flagal 7 fans permalink

so did the wolfman

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:06 AM on 05/31/2008
- vincealy I'm a Fan of vincealy 5 fans permalink

Hillary will blow up the party. Remember when the Monica scandal came up in the White House.The initial Clinton reaction was to snoop into the interns backround and try to portral Monica as a disturbed person. Hillary defending Bill adamently. Thes people will do or say anything . The real question is do the party leaders have the stones to do what is right. Obama

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:57 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

omg!! i spent over a half hour repeatedly dialing c-span this morning. that show was simply outrageous today, but i woke up late - so, anybody, somebody - please tell me they had an obama supporter on before that had a clinton supporter on.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:55 AM on 05/31/2008
- Paula1953 I'm a Fan of Paula1953 6 fans permalink
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I tuned in too so I don't know. The problem for me was they had a Clinton supporter on as a guest.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:26 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

and she is from my area. talking about how "florida voters are outraged" - i am at her for speaking such nonsense!! i am outraged that she wants a vote to count that didn't count four months ago when the ballots were cast. it is illegitimate, and she is a fraud. i don't remember when time hearing her call for a rally in our area. not once. but now.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:30 AM on 05/31/2008
- live I'm a Fan of live 24 fans permalink
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she has already done her damage. I keep hearing the same talking points about that sitting in the
pew for twenty years. I will never forgive Clinton-ever. and you can blame her for this . she kept pushing this to the media from the start and is still even though she lost a long time ago. WhY?

this pastor garbage isnt going away
despite the fact that we are in a phoney costly war
and an economy gone way south and all points in between.

people like showy and short descriptions about and from candidates,
I dont think the public is smart enough to figure out anything different
if they cant figure out that obama did NOT say those things but still blame him for them
i think we can write off his election and the MSM is very happy to play along

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:55 AM on 05/31/2008
- dm92 I'm a Fan of dm92 11 fans permalink

This will be reviewed in history as the end of the democratic party. The bullying of the losing side to give their candidate the nomination even though she hasn't won cannot be tolerated. The constant changing the rules, the lying the attempts to cheat the process. A demonstration in Washington today should have been held in Tallahassee and Lansing 6 months ago - THE RULES ARE THE RULES. I don't see this party coming together. My grandfather used to say the it is lost cause to reason with people who don't believe in right. The Clinton supporters don't believe in right and wrong - they want what the want and I would rather see the democrats lose than to give in to that foolishness. I am feeling great about my choice to switch to being an independent - wouldn't want to be in a party with these losers.

dm92

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:37 AM on 05/31/2008
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Whether or not the party comes together is up to the Clintons, really.

We are going to see if they are Democrats or not.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:46 AM on 05/31/2008
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Please let us not leave it to the Clintons.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:00 AM on 05/31/2008
- Kalima I'm a Fan of Kalima 74 fans permalink
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Hi Thunderclap. Has it started yet and when will we know anything?
Will there be anything worth knowing?
We are 13 hours ahead of SET, the suspense is killing me. I hear that
you can watch it, I'm jealous but will be patient. Feel like a kid waiting
for Christmas Eve. Have a good day and maybe see you later.
Good night.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:03 AM on 05/31/2008
- dawlishgal I'm a Fan of dawlishgal 219 fans permalink
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I think it is a little late for that, given that her supporters are all over the web circulating a number of petitions to get signatures from people who promise to not vote for Obama under any circumstances.

Get this: a NUMBER of petitions, so that they can count people as many times as the number of petitions they sign. IE...she and her supporters have found yet another way to lie and cheat. They fully intend to give these signatures to the superdelegates in order to make their case that her supporters are willing to bring down the party if they aren't allowed to break the rules and take the prize. And this is how crazy they are....the­y expect the superdelegates to respect THAT kind of destructive and divisive posturing.

I'll bet Gloria Steinem and Ellen Goodman are proud of themselves for feeding into the crackpot zeal of these unethical dolts.

How can the party possibly reward these bozos by giving their candidate the nomination simple because she has the most crazed, inflamed, ruthless and crazy supporters? What kind of a precedent would that set.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:08 AM on 05/31/2008
- riverhouse I'm a Fan of riverhouse 48 fans permalink

I don't think they have that power at this point. Clearly Pelosi isn't conceding that power to them and I don't think any rational Democrats believe the Democratic Party is at the mercy of the Clintons.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:19 AM on 05/31/2008
- jeplanet I'm a Fan of jeplanet 40 fans permalink
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I don't understand why you guys insist on regurgitating this same old "End Of Times" nonsense. I'm getting so tired of it. I'm annoyed by the way this is dragging on, too. And I certainly don't think the Clintons have done the party any favors; but why do you have to blow things so far out of proportion?
Obama is the Democratic nominee, and he's already focused on the general election.
He has a damn good chance of winning the presidency; nothing is 100%, to be sure.
I understand that you are choosing to be an independant; I just don't understand why I constantly here this preaching of defeat.
Things literally can't get any worse ! How often in life can you say that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:58 AM on 05/31/2008
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Today, Bill and Hillary are going to discover that power in the DNC has passed from their hands to Obama's.

Hillary won't get what she wants.
And if she tries to take it to the convention, she will destroy her career utterly and completely.

Pelosi warned Hillary about using a scorched earth strategy---and as the chairwoman of the convention, she can make sure that the issues brought to the floor are done as Pelosi wishes, not as Hillary wishes.

There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, but in the end, the compromise will not give Hillary any of what she really wants---and she certainly won't be handed the nomination after teh last three primaries end on Tuesday.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:37 AM on 05/31/2008
- arkgrfx61 I'm a Fan of arkgrfx61 4 fans permalink

Thunderclap - i LOVE YOU!!! the more i read your comments - the better i feel - you seem absolutely positive about this.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:39 AM on 05/31/2008

I am so exasperated with the Clinton supporters who insist that it's fair to give Barack zero delegates in Michigan. There is No Way Michigan OR Florida can be handled fairly. Rules are Rules. This is a simple concept.

Am I the only one flustered and exasperated with all this? Makes me want to pull my hair out (ouch!!)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:35 AM on 05/31/2008
- Gina322 I'm a Fan of Gina322 6 fans permalink

You are definately NOT ALONE. I feel sick with this entire process; I don't know if I will ever want to be involved to this extent ever again. Having started out as a Hillary supporter, it is especially disturbing to have to witness her behavior. Frankly I don't understand it, and I don't know why someone close to here doesn't have a serious chat with her. I feel like our voting process has become a joke.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:41 AM on 05/31/2008
- Forsetti I'm a Fan of Forsetti 67 fans permalink
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The process is not the problem it is the Clintons' failure to follow and abide by the process when it doesn't work out in their favor. They are trying to make it look like the process is the reason why she isn't the nominee in order to take the spotlight off the real culprits; Hillary and her campaign. The longer they can keep people focused on "the process" that has "victimized" her, the easier it is for them to hide her flaws as a candidate and stay in the game.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:54 AM on 05/31/2008
- Flagal I'm a Fan of Flagal 7 fans permalink

The lust for ultimate Power & Money change people.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:08 AM on 05/31/2008
- arkgrfx61 I'm a Fan of arkgrfx61 4 fans permalink

It has been a very disturbing process Gina, but I think very much an eye-opening one.

We've learned a little bit more about how the entire election process works.
We are more skeptical about the candidates thus casting a wary eye their way so they better not mess w/ us, and while it's taken us quite a long time to get through - i think we know more now about the candidates then we ever would have w/ out this long, involved campaign.
I'm sorry your original candidate didn't turn out the way you expected - but I do sincerely hope that you will help the democratic party beat the GOP.

As for someone having a serious chat w/ her, maybe they've tried, but she is so clouded in her judgment. I wonder - is it a lust for power or is it a lust to prove that she can fight the republican machine and beat them? I think the latter might be closer to the truth and that's why now that this young, upstart Obama has stolen what she felt was rightly owed her after the hell the repugs put her and her husband through - well I think that gives a better insight as to where she is coming from. Not saying it's right, but she can't help how she feels.

GObama!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:47 AM on 05/31/2008
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You are by no means alone in your frustration of hearing all of these false talking points. It's even harder to know the outcome for the last year + and have to watch it be played out this grotesquely.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:43 AM on 05/31/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

how about florida? how can it be a legitimate election when we entered the booth EXPECTING our votes not to count?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:57 AM on 05/31/2008
- riverhouse I'm a Fan of riverhouse 48 fans permalink

Well, if you'd read the newspapers you'd have known your vote was not going to be counted in the great scheme of things. FL has already caused enough electoral trauma in the past. FL is GOP country anyway.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:21 AM on 05/31/2008

The clinton's philosophy has always been to destroy anything or anybody that gets in the way of what they lust for.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:31 AM on 05/31/2008
- abby4ever I'm a Fan of abby4ever 259 fans permalink
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To CocteausTwin:

Here's one article about the 2004 elections and some in the UK trying to influence voters, still looking for more---it has some reaction from the people in the states---here, Ohio.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/oct/18/uselections2004.usa2

Abby

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:28 AM on 05/31/2008
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Gratsi

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:43 AM on 05/31/2008
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Wow several of those comments look like the stereotypical "ugly" Americans. I doubt if many would have voted for someone other than bush, would like to vote for him again and probably see no ill with McCain.

I am not sure if the level of idiocy and willful ignorance will ever cease to surprise me.

I think our most pressing problem in the states is a general lack of quality education.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:49 AM on 05/31/2008
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(OH MSNBC said the meeting would go until 6:00pm EDT -- I do not know if it is true)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:05 AM on 05/31/2008
- PAposter I'm a Fan of PAposter 123 fans permalink
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I don't think any of the votes in Florida and Michigan should be awarded to anyone, and should only be used to determine delegates. That's all they are used for anyway. I also think the delegates should be awarded based on the current percentage of each candidate (excluding Superdelegates). It is reflective of the country, and the only fair way to handle this. The results of these two states are inaccurate at best, with regard to either candidate, and should not come into play.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:21 AM on 05/31/2008
- Forsetti I'm a Fan of Forsetti 67 fans permalink
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Has there been anything in the Clintons' political history that would lead anyone to believe they admit anything, let alone defeat?

If she is the tremendous, outstanding, upright candidate her ardent supports claim her to be she will give a concession speech next Tues. or Wed. after the last primaries. She will praise Obama for his campaign, pledge to support him 100% against McCain and plead with her followers to do the same. If she doesn't do this then it should be the final warning signal to her loyal people that she isn't what they think she is and what she claims to be.

I see her trying a hybrid approach where she tries to come across as gracious and conciliatory, all the while holding a flame thrower to Obama and the party.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:16 AM on 05/31/2008
- danoj I'm a Fan of danoj 17 fans permalink

Her problem is she thinks people will rally around her if she can just manage to do enough damage to Obama, that she be allowed to break every rule the party has and steal the election. She is failing to realize, most of us think if we never heard the name Clinton again it would be to soon.

What her supporters fail to relaize, is, Hillary would toss everyone one of them under the bus if she could just manage to sit behind the big desk.These people have no moral center or conceous; it's never been us against them as the Clintons portray as the constant victim.

It has always been the Clintons and the Clintons, they only care about themselves, and the task at hand; anyone who gets in there way will be smeared, slimed, and maybe even called just another black candidate. Right Bill?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:28 AM on 05/31/2008
- AxelDC I'm a Fan of AxelDC 83 fans permalink
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I honestly don't see what Clinton's game is here. She is going to emerge from the primaries about 150 elected delegates behind him, about where she was at the end of February before "the Kitchen Sink" campaign. If she gets everything she wants, she still emerges about 90 elected delegates behind him. On top of that, he now has a 42 super delegate lead. In her best case scenario, she ends up 150 super delegates behind him.

There are only 191 Super Delegates left, so she needs to get 80% of them. However, Obama claims that he has 36 super delegates set to announce on June 4th. Pelosi, Reid and Dean have made it obvious they are going to announce for Obama, since they have vowed to unite behind the "winner of the primaries". Since she failed to make any ground on him with her Ohio and partial Texas wins, it's been obvious this thing has been over for months. She is spending her own money at this point to damage Obama.

Her only other option is to run as an independent, but many of her supporters would denounce her. Already 50% of New York Democrats want her out today. If Obama loses because of Clinton's obvious sabotage, he becomes a martyr and the obvious nominee in 2012. She becomes a reviled figure and Bill Clinton with her. She has little to gain and much to lose this week.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:13 AM on 05/31/2008
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She is going to claim her false popular vote metric. She wants to play the victim until there is nothing left which to cry wolf.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:18 AM on 05/31/2008

watch for the lawsuits if shrillary doesn't get her way this weekend at the DNC

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:36 AM on 05/31/2008

They have had four lawsuits thrown out of court already. Verdict "The court does not interfere with party rules"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:12 AM on 05/31/2008

The goal for the last 2 months is, not to win the nomination, but to weaken Obama for the GE. She needs McCain to win so that she can try again in 2012. I love when she talks about FLA and MI and her popular vote metric, I imagine her in her hotel room at night, laughing at her supporters for being so gullible and trusting. She will survive a McCain Term just fine, but how about her supporters?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:23 AM on 05/31/2008
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