Massive SUV Hybrids Finding Few Takers

New York Times:

They've been criticized as gas hogs, dinosaurs and land yachts.

Now Detroit is hoping to cast its biggest sport utility vehicles in a new light: green.

Read the whole story: New York Times

Comments

[SeriousBlack]

oooooohh - From 14 mpg to 20!

When is the American auto industry going to GET IT?

They've had over 30 years since the 70's fiasco and they're still making land yachts that get 14 mpg and think they're accomplishing anything by making "hybrids" that make 20? TWENTY miles per gallon?!

Give me an effing break!

[xrepublican]

Who though up THIS? A too large to start with vehicle that costs MORE and saves you only a little. Econimic justification please? Makes more sense to keep the old SUV that's paid for or BUY A SMALLER CAR.

Better yet - DON'T DRIVE SO MUCH. Try living closer to where you work or better yet - using mass transit regularly. WALK now and then.

DO THE MATH. Paying $100,000 less for a house that required you to drive an extra hour a day wasn't such a good trade-off even when gas was cheap. But Americans gotta have their Levittown dream box on a quarter or third acre. Horrors if you lived in an APARTMENT a couple blocks away from a train or subway station...­... The middle class fled the outer boroughs of NYC for suburbia in the 60's without realizing the real cost. Places like LA SPRAWLED without even thinking about mass transit and the truly insane turned what should have been UNLIVEABLE places like LasVegas and Tucson into the fastest growing places in the US. Good luck when the water dries up and you don't have electricity to run the AC.

The whole suburban/exurban model has meant an insane waste of resources. Good farm land outside cities turned into houses, more highways and more cars. The old pre-car model was pretty damn efficient. Most people WALKED to work and lived close to their place of employment. They WALKED to do shopping and kids WALKED to school.

[ClintB]

Watch GM stock nose dive. Start shorting.

[sadnmadinvirginia]

We have a 1996 Suburban. We get an average of 17 miles/gallon, which is 3 less then the new big hybrids. We drive between 2500 miles/year. That works out to 147 gallons, which would be 737.00/yea­r, at 5.00/gallo­n. Repairs have been minimal And guess what? We're a lot safer then in the small econo box that we had 13 years ago. Somebody hit us. Seatbelts were on. I lost one leg and nearly lost the other. We bought this bigger vehicle. FOR PROTECTION.

Now, why would I want to buy a SUV hybrid that costs 40,000.00, pay more insurance, more in personal property tax, only to get 3-5 miles more per gallon?? We'd save 167.00/yea­r, and have $400.00 car payments, 300.00 more per year in insurance, 3-4000./ye­ar in Virginia's personal property tax annually, sales tax of 5%, and so on. I'd be spending about 10,000.00 the first year to drive 2500 miles. That’s 4.00 per mile in car costs plus .25 per mile for gas. Thats 4.25 per mile. Why do i keep my gas guzzler

DUH !!

Oh, yeah....fo­r those who hate my 1996 SUV....if I bought a smaller hybrid that gets 35 miles/gallon, I'd save 377.00/yea­r in gas, based on the same figures, and pay 30-35000. for a hybrid car, and all the expenses I mentioned earlier.

[drkazmd65]

An economic arguement that makes perfect sense sadnmandinvirginia.

Keeping an existing vehicle that is paid for and well maintained, even one that is a bit of a 'guzzler' makes complete sense. Adding your current vehicle to the scrapheap just creates a different waste problem.

I say keep that Suburban until the maintenence and upkeep and gas costs make it prohibitive to do so. Then,... look for a used Volvo wagon or something, or maybe consider upgrading to a Hybrid or Plug-in full size if they are available.

One of the reasons I love my Mazda IS that it is paid for, and the maintenence costs are about nil other than oil changes and such. I'll keep it until it costs more to run than to get a new 'greener' car myself.

It's as much an individual level economics question as anything else whether one 'needs' to get a new greener car.

[SolarPowerGuy]

You drive 2500 miles per year? Two thousand five hundred?

That's the most ecological choice of all -- low mileage. Sure, you can keep your SUV as long as you don't drive it much.

But I have very little patience with the "protection" argument. American motorists are in an arms race. We believe that we "have" to buy a big honking vehicle, because our neighbor bought one, and hey, he might hit us one day.

I know two people who have rolled over their SUV's. One was lucky to escape with her life. I saw the vehicle being towed to the junkyard, it was the scariest piece of twisted metal you can imagine.

[WIpatriot]

Ever see an econobox rolled? I'm just sayin'....

[GeoNorth]

Once again, Detroit gets it wrong. They have been capable of building effecient cars and trucks for a long time, but they haven't because too many idiots buy trucks and SUVs. Detroit build what it sells. Since all they sell are behemoths, they figure that they'll build them. However, Japan always seems ahead of the market. They don't pander, they innovate and market correctly. There are too many men who buy SUVs for their wives because "they're safer". They are not. Many of these wives can't handle these monsters. THey don't drive effeciently and only add to the problem. And then there are some who will not buy a hybrid because of the image. They think of the smug hippies who drive them. Of course, they're smug. THey know that they are working for a solution while the macho Aholes who drive the big iron when it's not nesessary are part of the problem.

By the way, Nissan is getting ready to release a totally plug in electric car and you can bet that they'll get it right, not like GM's aborted try in the 90's. Now if we could only have an efficent electric grid that doesn't burn coal or oil (are you listening OHIO?)

[hank48188]

Until a couple of months ago the only hybrid that was a big seller was the Prius, the reason for that is the image it projects, the rest of the hybirds that look the same as a regular car don't sell. They like to have others see them driving this green car, the Prius is the only distinct car that you know at 50 yds what it is. Good luck with that total electric plug-in car in cold weather, try parking it outside for about 8 hours at 10 degrees and see how much power is left.

[KillTheMessenger]

Batteries don't lose their charge in the cold. Actually, they retain their charge longer. The power output of the battery will be somewhat lower because the battery voltage will be lower. This, however, won't last long because the battery in a real EV will quickly heat up when loaded. It might be important to mention that the charging of a cold battery will also take considerably less energy than that of a hot battery because while the total charge is the same, the energy product Q*U will be lower at low temperatures because the charging voltage will be lower, too. Therefor a cold EV can drive fewer miles but it won't stop to operate.

[jmndodge]

I had the 1980 Audi Diesel (old style, personal size luxury car, run 70 mph all day pulling my small boat, with family and all camping supplies, get over 30 usually 35 mpg for all around driving. Best value care I ever owned. What people are not talking about is the savings when people who drive big suv/trucks, for necessity and are now getting 10-15 mpg, and are able to move that to 15-22 mpg. The represents almost a 30% savings at the pump. The compact driver getting 27-35 mpg, making a change to a hybrid going 40-55 mpg might only realize a 10% savings at the pump.

Fact is however, that for reasons of saving the environment, we need to move to a smaller footprint. Carbon emissions are greatly reduced by increased mileage, however we have yet to fully to address the recycling and energy demands of reclaiming the battery's in aging hybrids. Some of our best options and old tried and proven. Transport more by rail, use mass transit, car pool, drive less, live closer to your work site, use foot and pedal power, and design communities for effective neighborhood experience, changing our outmoded suburban sprawl and isolation.

Cars, neighborhoods, legislation, even corporate policies all can be changed more quickly and easily than the habits and patterns of people. When we begin to see and think differently we will begin making the changes necessary for a sustainable future.

[KillTheMessenger]

15000 miles/35mpg = 429 gallons.
15000 miles/47mpg = 319 gallons. (real world Prius)

That's 74% or 26% savings. 110 gallons difference per year are $440 savings at $4/gallon. When we switched from our 20mpg car, we cut our gasoline demand in less than half. Add in the lower insurance, less repair costs (the car was seven years old and started to become expensive to maintain) and we get 8% annual return on our investment. Not a bad investment.

Comparing diesel and gasoline is comparing apples and oranges:

Diesel 130,500 Btu/gallon.
Gasoline 115,000 Btu/gallon.

That's 13% more energy in the same volume. Diesel used to be a great value as long as it was cheap. Not sure the price difference will allow much of savings any longer.

I agree with you on your other points. Hybrids are not the only solution Europe has been betting on diesel, but then, they can buy high quality diesel fuel everywhere for decades. Cars like the Prius seem to be more like a Japanese and North American niche solution. However, electric vehicles have enormous advantages over gasoline or diesel vehicles. They will start playing an important role 10-15 years from now.

[JadisOne]

To me, it's simple economics. It costs over $53,000 to own one. If you're financing for 60 months, you're looking at about a $1,000 per month payment plus upkeep. For the average consumer, that's a lot to pay just to save 7 MPG.

[GeoNorth]

SUVs are certainly a problem in the waste of petroeum, but let us not discount driving habits. Most people will drive a quarter mile to by a gallon of milk when waking is preferable. Also, they drive like crap. In Vermont where most of our major roads are, for the most part, relatively flat but curvy, people will accelerate to sixty on the straights and brake to 35 for the bends. This speed-up and slowdown wastes precious fuel. I keep my speed control on, set at 50 which my 2002 Chevy Malibu (The world's most boring car) easily handles. I get 33 mpg! Steady gets it every time. In know that won't work in the urban areas, because most people think that they are the only ones on the road. Pay attention to driving and stop talking on the cell phone, shaving, putting on makeup, eating, dancing, reading (!) and PAY ATTENTION. Watch your mileage rise. 20 mpg is nothing to brag about. It's pitiful.

[almoguy]

One morning America woke up and discovered that their SUV had never seen mud, that their SUV had not lead them to great adventures and personal triumphs. One morning America woke up and discovered that they were just dull people that had been duped into thinking that they were independent and special by marketing. Now I hope they have really woke up and are ready to stop this nonsense.

[drkazmd65]

Yep,... my Mother in Law has a '96 Explorer that has been off a paved road once - and I was driving it then. My Father in law has a Silverado 4x4 pickup that he uses to tow his boat about 2 times per year and otherwise uses to drive around town. My Parents just bought a Saturn Vue (only 6 cylinder at least) although at least they get to use the 4 wheel drive in snowdrifts for a couple of months a year in the Lake-effect snow near Lake Michigan,.­..

My current car is a used Protege (1.6L engine, manual) that has been through ice and snow, and that gets (on a good week) almost 40mpg on my (all highway) commute. I never cease to be amazed at the 'morons' driving (alone) in their penis substitutes down the same highways in their Expeditions, Yukons, and such at 70-80mph down the interstate­,...

I smile to myself every time I fill up my Mazda, and see one of these yahoos tanking up their beasts for $75-90 while I have never spent more than $36.

[chinacatsunflower]

sounds familiar..­....i lived in a hillside community in the foothills of the shenandoah valley, a paved road, and was couldn't believe how many brand new suvs i would see abandoned on the side of the road in 3 inches of snow. all with their silly vanity plates reading "mtn toy" or "mtn lvng"; meanwhile i putted right up that hill in my old 5 speed corolla, every time. fools.

[fillou]

TATA, the indian carmaker that bought Jaguar and Range Rover has bought the patent for the "air compressed" engine from a french engineer that has been building small air compressed engine cars in Europe. Company is called "MDI enterprises", check it on the web www . mdi . lu

[neocon666]

If you really want to see how the (formerly) big 3 got served, rent "Who Killed the Electric Car". It goes into detail about how GM actually created a decent electric car (0 to 60 in 6 seconds, 300 miles on a full charge, plugged into any standard outlet) to comply with California law, and when they realized that it would cut into their own gas sucker market, promply had over 300 brand new cars crushed. Meanwhile, the Japanese companies saw GM creating electric cars and in a rush, started their own alternative fuel programs, which resulted in the Prius, etc.

[KillTheMessenger]

I think you need to take a look at it from a technological perspective. The Prius is an evolutionary product. GM EV1 was an attempt at a revolution. As most of the time in technology, revolutionary products fail and evolutionary solutions win. You can ask any engineer, they will be able to give you plenty of examples from their own knowledge domain.

I know this explanation does not satisfy the paranoid mind. It does however explain reality.

[SolarPowerGuy]

It's one thing to say that the EV-1 wasn't ready for prime time, and that there were not a million customers waiting to buy it.

It's quite another thing to see how GM handled the small, enthusiastic niche market that they had. It was shameful. See the film.

My Prius is the largest vehicle I have ever owned. My second car is a Honda Civic. When it dies, I'm hoping to replace it with an Aptera.

[hank48188]

The fact is that the EV-1, or any other battery car, doesn't do very well in cold weather. Maybe it could go 300 miles on a charge with new batteries and very warm temps, but couldn't get half that in the cold.

[jetdog]

As far as I am concerned the Big 3 deserve to e where they are at, losing billions by the month. What fucking MORONS to even consider building these pieces of crap.

[willo]

The sooner their off the road the better!

[AnnArky]

I can just see the SNL Church Lady saying "Now, aren't we fickle?

[econdr]

American cars suck.