Obama's Debt To Harold Ickes

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First Posted: 06- 3-08 02:30 AM   |   Updated: 06-10-08 05:12 AM

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Barack Obama stands on the brink of capturing the presidential nomination in large part because of Democratic Party reforms initiated by the civil rights and anti-war movements of the 1960s -- movements in which Hillary Clinton's top strategist, Harold Ickes, was a key player.

When Obama was barely three, Ickes took part in Mississippi Freedom Summer, helping the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party send a primarily black delegation to the 1964 national convention in Atlantic City.

After the Freedom Democratic delegation was denied seating by the virtually all white male Democratic Party establishment, Ickes -- then 24 -- went on to help organize the party's reformist Harold Hughes Commission, the precursor to the McGovern Commission.

The anger against entrenched power of the old-line Democratic Party intensified, and by 1968, young civil rights, women's rights, and anti-war activists were beaten in the streets of Chicago outside the convention hall, and the protests of dissidents were gaveled down by party bosses on the convention floor. The outrage gave birth to the Democratic Party's Commission on Party Structure and Delegate Selection, aka the McGovern Commission.

Writing in the January 1970 issue of Harper's about the '68 convention, McGovern described the "tumultuous floor debate, bloodshed and tear gas in the streets...it also evokes the image of rigged procedures, a political party assembled to reach predetermined decisions. The convention became the shame of the Democratic Party."

Coming out of the turmoil of the sixties, the 1972 McGovern rules, as they came to be known, radically altered the way Democrats pick their presidential nominees, opening up the political process by mandating proportional inclusion of previously excluded constituencies -- African Americans, voters under 30, and women.

All of the reforms adopted then, and modified over the years, have been in play this year, including the expanded role in party proceedings of blacks, women, and the young; the required use of proportional representation; and superdelegates.

One reform stands out particularly in Obama's march to victory: the much wider use of open caucuses as a key component of the nomination process. Caucuses differ from primaries in that participants must spend many hours in a complex rule-ridden bargaining process that determines how a precinct or ward will allocate its support among the presidential candidates.

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Now, some 36 years after the adoption of the McGovern rules, caucuses as a vehicle for the selection of convention delegates have empowered a key Obama constituency: young and relatively well-educated social-cultural liberals -- just the class of political activists that Ickes and the Clintons came out of and made salient.

In the arcane caucus procedures, with turnout ranging from only two to eight percent of the eligible Democratic electorate (compared to voter participation rates in primaries ranging from 20 to 35 percent), smart and strategically savvy party activists make up a disproportionately large share of participants.

"The caucuses made Obama, there is no doubt about it," argues University of Wisconsin political scientist Byron Shafer, the foremost expert on changes since the 1960s in the Democratic nominating process.

"Caucuses were the preferred institution of the reformers. The argument of the reform theorists was not about the gross bulk of participation, but about the character of the participation," Shafer said. In a primary, "you could go and vote, but it was limited: you pull the lever that was it. In a caucus, it wasn't that turnout would be lower, it was the quality of the turnout was higher."

It would be difficult to overestimate the consequences for Obama of Democratic Party reforms promoting caucuses. If the caucus states were eliminated, Obama would not be the one on the verge of declaring victory.

As of June 2, according to RealClearPolitics, Obama had a 157 delegate vote lead over Clinton, 2072 to 1915.

In the 14 states that picked some or all of their delegates through caucus systems this year, Obama won 400 delegates to Clinton's 193, a 207 delegate advantage that more than accounts for his overall delegate lead.

An analysis (pdf) published on TalkLeft found that total Democratic voter participation in the caucus states amounted to 1.1 million people, compared to the 32.4 million voters in Democratic primaries, a ratio of 30 to one. Caucus participants made up 3.2 percent of the total of 33.5 million primary voters and caucus goers combined.

In contrast to the relatively close results in most primary states, Obama won many of the caucus states by huge margins, often substantially exceeding 60 percent. As a consequence, he piled up large numbers of delegates in the relatively low turnout contests.

The TalkLeft analysis noted that Clinton won 11 more delegates than Obama in the New Jersey primary, which she won by 112,128 votes, while Obama won 12 more delegates than Clinton in the Idaho caucuses which he won by 13,225 votes. Similarly, Clinton netted 12 delegates by winning the Pennsylvania primary by 214,115 votes, while Obama came out ahead by 14 delegates by winning the Kansas caucuses by 17,710 votes.

Charles Stewart III of MIT did a separate analysis of primaries and caucuses with results similar to those of the Talk Left study, finding that in primary states, Clinton won 1,557.5 delegates, 16 more delegates than Obama's 1,521.5. In caucus states, Stewart found, Obama won 366 delegates, or 191 more than Clinton's 175.

In private, a number of Clinton strategists now acknowledge that they made a disastrous, if not fatal, mistake in failing to recognize the profound impact of the caucuses on the delegate count.

"We just thought we'd win the primaries, and the caucuses would follow along," one key Clinton strategist said. "It's on the top of the list of things we'd like to do over."

Barack Obama stands on the brink of capturing the presidential nomination in large part because of Democratic Party reforms initiated by the civil rights and anti-war movements of the 1960s -- movemen...
Barack Obama stands on the brink of capturing the presidential nomination in large part because of Democratic Party reforms initiated by the civil rights and anti-war movements of the 1960s -- movemen...
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- sueno I'm a Fan of sueno 13 fans permalink

Nothing is owed-
Ickes did it for this great country that we live in.
Obama owes nothing.
Ickes in spite of his achievements, did everything he could, to prevent Obama from winning.
Considering Ickes high-minded and elite attitude, its not his to give or pass on.
Again, Ickes is owed nothing, nada, nixs.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:18 PM on 06/04/2008
- JustJoan I'm a Fan of JustJoan 4 fans permalink

Well stated. I would like to see Ickes, McCauliff and Hillary all admit that Obama is the Presidential nominee. If Ickes is the person you say he is what is the issue? This is about the party and the work that needs to be done to repair the damage done by Bush. This is about the young men and women in Iraq, not about Hillary. If she wants to be VP then go about it in an honorable way and speak to Obama behind closed doors. Having these people start sign ups for Hillary to be VP in the pretense that she has nothing to do with it is sad. She wants to hold her voters hostage using them as bargaining chips while continuing to ask for money to pay her debts for a poorly managed campaign. I hope the people that voted for her start to see their real meaning to her soon.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:25 PM on 06/04/2008

Since Obama is the nominee, no need for a convention. And since Obama got more votes than McCain, the media buffoons should call on McCain to withdraw so there will be no need for a November election. Lets just crown him now. We don't need no stinking election.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:23 PM on 06/04/2008
- dawlishgal I'm a Fan of dawlishgal 221 fans permalink
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I would like to know if Ickes was the one who coined the phrase, "hardworking white Americans." How do these people reconcile their having been active in civil rights and now sitting idly by (or worse, collaborating) in the race-baiting of the Clinton campaign.

I have seen more than one feminist and civil rights supporter from the past now contorted with rage at Obama for having done nothing more than deciding to run against Hillary and win.

The sense of entitlement to a female president---ANY female president--is palpable, and the basis of their feelings of entitlement is some kind of shared victim-mentality that Hillary fostered and abetted with her own sense of victimhood. (It seems to me that the REAL victims are the women of Appalachia who had their racism pandered to and their accents cynically mocked by Hillary during the brief few days she was pretending to be"one of us)." Her telling them to call hillaryclinton.comm" and contribute money from their small incomes was sad. She promised them that if they voted for her AND gave money, she was certain to win, way past the time she must have known that she had no chance to win.

Shameful.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:35 PM on 06/04/2008
- mjc I'm a Fan of mjc 13 fans permalink

Just in case you missed the opening sentences of this blog, Ickes did indeed do what he did to reform the Party he loved for the country he loves. He and other Democrats helped make it possible for Barack Obama to be presidential candidate. He is owed plenty....., from the so-called "people of color".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:17 PM on 06/04/2008
- mbbythesea I'm a Fan of mbbythesea 13 fans permalink
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Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

The Who "Won't Get Fooled Again"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:32 PM on 06/04/2008

What do you mean "so-called people of color"?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:41 PM on 06/04/2008
- mbbythesea I'm a Fan of mbbythesea 13 fans permalink
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"The anger against entrenched power of the old-line Democratic Party intensified"

so Mr. Icky when did it all devolve from civil rights and social justice into manipulations and winning at all costs? trying to award zero votes to Obama from MI to put Hill ahead in the race. ZERO VOTES? this was a blantant attempt to subjugate voter will---as blatant as any act of voter suppression you previously protested. And trying to divide the party down gender and class lines..nice touch. What were you fighting for back then anyway Ickes? When did it become a zero sum game?

in the days when you were fighting for civil rights, you fought the good fight and earned just victory. when you were fighting to manipulate votes against an opponent (who is a good man) you DESERVED TO LOSE AND YOU DID. sometimes karma gets it just right. now someone just has to explain the bush-era to me in karmic terms.

And Harold tell Hill I said thanks for that Bush era, perhaps if she had not siphoned so much funds and resources from Al Gore's campaign, we wouldn't have such a mess to clean up. And some of those wounds (4000+) can never heal.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:25 PM on 06/04/2008
- mbbythesea I'm a Fan of mbbythesea 13 fans permalink
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"The anger against entrenched power of the old-line Democratic Party intensified"

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

"Won't Get Fooled Again" The Who

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:30 PM on 06/04/2008
- Jezreel I'm a Fan of Jezreel 74 fans permalink
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Very interesting and informative post . It provides insight into Harold Ickes' background and values. It makes one wonder what happened to create such a profound change in his vision for America and the Democratic Party. After all he's done to foster and promote political and racial equality it is ironic that he now stands in opposition to the nomination of the first African American Democratic candidate for POTUS.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:46 AM on 06/04/2008
- mjc I'm a Fan of mjc 13 fans permalink

Not so much in opposition to the first African American to win the presumptive nomination process as he was and is in favor of Hillary Clinton to be the first American woman to win the presumptive nomination process.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:17 PM on 06/04/2008
- ibsteve2u I'm a Fan of ibsteve2u 154 fans permalink
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"Caucuses were the preferred institution of the reformers."

And thus the foil of "Business as Usual"....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:12 AM on 06/04/2008
- Smartey I'm a Fan of Smartey 3 fans permalink

OK, that's it. We've had enough.

Not only did the TV morons insult our Hillary last night, but all you two-faced backstabbers on this site are chiming right in, too. Hillary WILL be the nominee come the convention, because the dirt we've got on Mr. Obama is going to rock the country. The superdelegates will come flooding back. I know of what I speak. I worked for the Hillary campaign, and this man of color -- not a colored man -- has used mean, nasty tactics to take what should be Hill's. We're just waiting for the right moment to release the info. You wait and see. And when they come back to us, he will be FINISHED.

And don't come sweet talking to us then, either. You disloyal supporters will not be welcome. In fact, some of you better hope your tax returns are in order. A few might want to be sure that strange van parked in front of your house isn't loaded with FBI agents. We WILL remember, so you'd better watch what you post. I've warned you all in previous posts, and you've scorned me. Now, our beloved Hillary is weighing her next move, and very soon you will all see.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:47 AM on 06/04/2008
- tamarque I'm a Fan of tamarque 5 fans permalink

how about enough of the nastiness from you, ms hilary supporter. as a long time feminist i am appalled by hilary's behavior throughout the campaign. she is not my role model with her racist
attacks. was this supposed to demonstrate her backbone in a fight! much more importantly is what she really stands for--which is NOT me and mine. i believe she avoided the caucusses because of her elitist attitude. i don't support the sexist press attacks, but she waged that kind of battle with obama, attacking the democrats directly. what do you make of her membership in the Family, that so-called spiritual group of the wealthies power elites of the country who think they have power by divine right of kings. hilary is a corporate member and supporter.

it amazes me how little people really look at where people come from and what forms their ideology in life. there was never anything about hiliary that could engender my trust in her. she is like bush-an alien in a foreign land when it comes to real people. what? her theatrical crying in n. hampshire, something totally alien to her. monsanto is her stomping ground and walmart's board of directors. yes, the great corporate bodies of america and the world that trash workers only seeing people as an economic frontier for their non-stop greed and power tripping control of the world.

wake up and smell the roses and admit that you misread this woman.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:36 PM on 06/04/2008
- dcree77 I'm a Fan of dcree77 3 fans permalink

"Smartey" is not a Hillary supporter s/he is a republican attempting to stir up feelings of discontent.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:59 PM on 06/04/2008
- mbbythesea I'm a Fan of mbbythesea 13 fans permalink
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whoa, another "reality optional" HRC supporter
why don't you guys all stay in that underground bunker
and start your own alternative universe
y'all can invent your own mathematical principals (AKA: cheating)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:07 PM on 06/04/2008

First, Hillary hints of an assination and now more threats of dire straits from her supporters... can I report this as terrorism?!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:01 PM on 06/04/2008
- F33bs I'm a Fan of F33bs 2 fans permalink
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I'm literally having troubling discerning whether that was a big joke or not.

Also that second paragraph was a little frightening. "Disloyal"? We owe loyalty to Clinton? What the fuck are we, the Hitler Youth?

Screw off ya old bat.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:02 PM on 06/04/2008
- kimbari I'm a Fan of kimbari 2 fans permalink
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Okay, you lost me at the tax returns!

*rolling on the floor laughing my fat ass off*

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:43 PM on 06/04/2008

Harold Ickes just needs some time to look beyond the second. He needs to look at the moment. For different reasons, I have not been an Obama (or Hillary) supporter. I opposed Obama's willingness to keep troops in Iraq, his opposition to single-payer, universal health care, and believe he's lying about NAFTA given his record of support for bad free trade deals like Peru.

But this country has evolved to a point where a major political party has just nominated an African-American for President of the Untied States. It brings a tear to this cynic's eye. Like Ickes, but at just a grunt level, I've been an activist in the civil rights, labor and peace movements all my life. I understand Harold supporting Hillary (although it ignores her Iraq war vote), but it's time to switch to Obama. Ickes is now helping McCain, not Hillary.

Hillary might believe, as she stated during the campaign, that McCain has the experience to be President while Obama just has one speech, but the first African-American nominee of Harold's Party needs Harold's help and needs to have his (and Hillary's) active support, not their undermining of Obama's campaign.

Harold Ickes should immediately publicly embrace Obama. To do so is congruent with his whole life story. To fail to do so means Harold is working actively to undermine everything he has been about his whole life.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:25 AM on 06/04/2008
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excellent post, nonamnesiac.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:30 AM on 06/04/2008
- bbbear I'm a Fan of bbbear 22 fans permalink
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Very insightful. Thank you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:25 AM on 06/04/2008
- PhDiva I'm a Fan of PhDiva 20 fans permalink

Gee, Tom. I didn't know that I as a black person had to kiss the feet of every white person that ever had a liberal thought or made a liberal act. I didn't know that I was allowed to sit in the "middle" of the bus as a black woman, but must never dare to imply to a white person that I could do a better job of driving it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:20 AM on 06/04/2008

As a black person or a white person no one has to"kiss the feet" of anyone. As a white person, I am grateful to Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, John and Robert Kennedy and to all people black, white, tan or green, who have helped me be a better person and my country a better place. I have not lived as a black person in this country. I live as a white woman whose culture told me I was not as good as any man. I stopped taking peoples' word for that a long time ago.
To be grateful is not subservient.
I also learned it is the person, not the wrapping the person is in, that matters.
I will vote for Barack Obama because he seems to believe this way.
I'm angry about a lot of things in my life. But, nothing in my life or probably yours, is as bad as the best day a lot of people have when they wake up. So what good does our sarcasm and anger do,especially when it is toward people who are going toward the way we want to go?
All of us need to get over it. Get over the name calling, bigoty and sexism and work very hard to help our country get on tract. And four more years of Republican rule could really be a big loss to us.
I wanted Clinton to win, she didn't. so now I will do my best to see that Obama does

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:07 PM on 06/06/2008

"If the caucus states were eliminated, Obama would not be the one on the verge of declaring victory."

Well, it's too late for the wishful thinking. The caucus states have always been part of the process and they have always been significant. The key that Obama and his people have shown how to use the caucus states to win a nomination. He did not do anything that could not have been done before. It's just that the old politicians failed to learn the new ways of accomplishing the same goal. Obama has shown how it is (or could have been) done. Most importantly, Obama doe not owe Harold Ickes anything. Somehow, some Whites think that Blacks should be grateful for enjoying the same privileges that some Whites take for granted. Whatever Harold Ickes did was not intended for the outcome we have today-Obama's nomination. Mr. Ickes' conduct exposed at the DNC meeting betrayed his true feelings. Some Whites do not mind Blacks enjoying the same things Whites enjoy, except becoming the President. Again, Obama owes Ickes nothing!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:00 PM on 06/03/2008
- timinhi I'm a Fan of timinhi 10 fans permalink
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Caucuses are an absolute joke. In my state (Hawaii), we ran out of actual ballots (which were just photocopied slips of paper anyway--with the names of the candidates--and some were "inadvertently" left out) early, and masses of people were voting on handwritten post-it notes and other scraps of paper. We need to do away with these primitive, informal affairs and have well-regulated and uniform primaries. I would support one large primary day, or at most, 3-5 regional primaries that are regulated on the national level. And how about this nonsense of states having caucuses IN ADDITION to primaries?! Why in the h--- do they need to vote TWICE? It was ridiculous that Hillary spanked Obama in the Texas primary and then he ended up getting more delegates there because Hillary supporters were suppressed from participating in the caucus.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:16 PM on 06/03/2008
- ginnypoo I'm a Fan of ginnypoo 7 fans permalink

Doesn't really matter how you vote....it can all be changed to "reflect" whatever the DNC wants it to.....no dem vote is safe. DEon't vote dem, vote indie so they can't change your vote. They control all the dem votes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:25 PM on 06/04/2008
- timinhi I'm a Fan of timinhi 10 fans permalink
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Obama has stolen the nomination through this shameful and primitive process and I hope Hillary takes it all the way to the end of the convention. We need to do away with "caucuses."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:18 PM on 06/03/2008
- tsloan I'm a Fan of tsloan 4 fans permalink

Coming from a caucus state....do you wish to disenfranchise my vote?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:57 PM on 06/03/2008
- iLogos I'm a Fan of iLogos 6 fans permalink

Hey, she and her advisers knew the rules. There was no stealing of anything. No one to blame but her own campaign for where they chose to spend their time and who to court when it came to money.

I am sympathetic that they vastly underestimated the power of Sen. Obama's message, and overestimated their own ability to wrap this up by Super Tuesday. If they had figured it correctly she may have never needed to use a Southern strategy and would not have lost the black vote. She never would have had to go negative and lost the youth vote. She would never had to try to promote Sen. McCain over Sen. Obama and lost the so-called "educated" vote.

If wishes were fishes no one would ever starve. There are no do-overs though. I hope whatever choices she makes in the future regarding her career she is successful in, and I hope she gains a more prominent role in our government rather than the junior senator from New York. She is bright, brilliant, warm, vivacious, and tenacious. She was also misguided by her advisers and I think without those missteps would have won.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:03 AM on 06/04/2008

I was in the Civil Rights movement, and Harold Ickes is/was an embarrassment to everyone who fought that good fight. He is a racist who has attached himself to Hillary's pantsuits like a remora. He does not embody anything that the Civil Rights movement was about. All he is about is advancing his own agenda - and, of course, the pantsuit.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:51 PM on 06/03/2008
- adzeman I'm a Fan of adzeman 36 fans permalink
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Well said. He's the epitome of a lickspittle, a Clinton toady for what twenty years? His argument before the committee was an embarrassment to law. When the new order comes to the Democratic Party, Harold and Lanny are the first to go.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:06 AM on 06/04/2008

If caucus states were eliminated Obama's campaign strategy would have necessarily been significantly different. His strategy was tailored to the situation as it is so no one can say whether the result would be different. without caucuses because the strategy would be different. Similarly if we'd had a national primary, odds are Hillary would be the nominee since she had the greatest name recognition. That doesn't necessarily mean she (or Obama) are the mythical 'best' candidate, it just means the politician had to show during this marathon that they have mastered both personal (small state) and mass (large state) politicking.
The point is, the process, whatever it is, will always influence the result. No system is intrinsically better, though some methods better reflect supposed 'values'. The smarter politician is the one who adapts strategy to the situation on the ground. Caucuses give greater weight to activists but do not cede them all power. That is a rational choice to reflect that some people will be more passionate about an issue/politician than others. While Ickes for example, may disagree with the result, he obviously (at least at one time) supported the theory.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:53 PM on 06/04/2008

You republicans that on here pretending to be democrats, get off.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:30 PM on 06/03/2008
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They're not going to leave. Operation chaos is here to stay, unfortunately.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:59 PM on 06/03/2008
- liseworks I'm a Fan of liseworks 142 fans permalink
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I do NOT want Hillary as VP.
There, I said it.

Obama / Sybelius
Obama / Richardson
Obama / Edwards
Obama / Webb
Obama / Biden

....but please ! NOT her !!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:53 PM on 06/03/2008
- Kassandra I'm a Fan of Kassandra 114 fans permalink
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He needs to at least offer it to her. Clinton on the ticket may just help re-unite the party and people like you who hate her may get over it. She's alot smarter than Bill and Clinton can do the gutter knife fighting while Obama takes the high road. We don't need another wimpy Kerry approach. Now that we know Rove is advising McBush, we know they will try to steal it again anyway they can.

I'm appalled that people put their candidates ahead of their country. Not Richardson, please! If you lived in his state you would know what I mean.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:36 PM on 06/03/2008

No, he does not need to offer her anything! He "may" offer it to her, if he prefers. She ran for the top post and she lost. So, move on. If she wanted the vice position, why did she not go for it when it was clear that the delegate math was against her. Instead, she came up with the outlandish theory of "electability" based on "popular votes." This is a delegate game. If she was that electable, explain how Obama raised more money based on popular contribution of ordinary Americans. Obama does not need to get in the gutter with anyone. Yes, Richardson should be considered for the post! He is more experienced than both Clinton and Obama, if experience is the parameter to choose the vice president. Lte me put it this way, if I were Clinton, I will not accept the vice position. Remember, according to Clinton, she and McCain are qualified to be president but Obama is not. So, why would she answer to someone less qualified?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:27 PM on 06/03/2008

You don't get it. Obama is all about ending "gutter knife fighting" in Washington. He certainly does not need a practitioner of dirty same old politics as his second in command, undermining everything he stands for.

HRC is not "owed" anything, although she certainly is not above trying to blackmail Obama into promoting her to some position in his administration. and paying off the debts she incurred with her ineffectual campaign.

Obama needs to move forward - and let HRC clean up her own mess and get on with whatever political future there may still be for her.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:53 PM on 06/03/2008
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Kassandra: Please don't offer the VP slot; she might just accept it,
and then you've got that loose cannon Bill Clinton hanging around.
He's being sued in California as I write this for campaign fraud and
several other felonies. Get Edwards or Sibelius or Richardson.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:58 PM on 06/03/2008

Only two things he needs to do. "Offer it to her" is not one of 'em. Not to be petulant, but I'm beyond sick of the arrogance.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:56 AM on 06/04/2008
- Swift2 I'm a Fan of Swift2 11 fans permalink

I don't want to see liseworks here. So?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:18 PM on 06/03/2008

I'm with you. I think, especially in light of Senator Clinton's speech tonight, that she's calculating what she can do to get in the White House in any way, shape, or form. Senator Obama can do much better with any of the running mates you've listed. And he should go with one of them; I think Senator Clinton has made her disdain for Senator Obama pretty clear; this isn't 1960, and our nominee should feel free to pick the running mate who's best for the country, not what's best to soothe a bruised ego.

Senator Clinton was THE FAVORITE going into this race; only 5 months ago, Senator Clinton was the presumptive nominee. I think she should accept her situation with grace and humility if she wants to continue to be a force in American politics. The longer she waits to gracefully concede, the more obstreperous she becomes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:21 PM on 06/03/2008
- bbbear I'm a Fan of bbbear 22 fans permalink
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Maybe we should actually thank Hillary, because last night she made it nearly impossible for Barack to choose her and Bill as VP.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:44 AM on 06/04/2008
- ginnypoo I'm a Fan of ginnypoo 7 fans permalink

Don't any of you get it.....democracy is dead. There is no democracy in this country any more. It died Saturday May 31st, 2008. The DNC killed it. Never again in America can any voter in any state be confident that their vote will go to the person they voted for. They can give them to me, to you, to anyone in the Universe. It DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ANYONE THAT WAS ON THE BALLOT. They, literally, just give those votes away to any one they want. They stole votes from a legal, viable political entity Uncommitted, and gave them to a person that was not in the election. They randomly took 4 legally earned delegates from Clinton and gave them to Obama. That means anyone can be given votes any time, for any reason, by the DNC RBC anytime they want They can actually roll out a candidate, pretend a certain amount of vote "meant" to go to a candidate. They actually took into account disqualified votes that were not being counted for technical reasons and included them, giving themselves "permission" to just give away Clinton legal votes to Obama. Never rest assured your cast vote will stay where you cast it. NEVER WILL VOTES MATTER. WHO CARES. THE PEOPLE VOTED, WE'LL JUST MOVE THEM TO THE PERSON WE WANT TO WIN............DEMOCRACY IS DEAD. THE DNC RBC KILLED IT MAY 31ST, 2008. DON'T BOTHER VOTING, THE DNC WILL TELL YOU WHO YOU MEANT TO VOTE FOR.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:42 PM on 06/03/2008
- liseworks I'm a Fan of liseworks 142 fans permalink
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Oh, please ....
Let me ask you something, do you think the people in the Caucus states count as voting citizens ?
Your answer will determine whether or not you're sane.
But, hey, if you prefer to wallow in self-pity & drown in the toilet, go right ahead. Bon voyage -

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:58 PM on 06/03/2008
- granamica I'm a Fan of granamica 5 fans permalink

Hyperbole is fascinating to read but it doesn't really add anything to conversation after the shock value wears off.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:10 PM on 06/03/2008
- Vern58 I'm a Fan of Vern58 13 fans permalink
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I will try to be constructive. The comment you posted is a gross overreaction. The DNC took the best compromise and utilized it. While it is understandable that you are probably having a deep seated problem with bitterness and frustration- not unlike a 3 year old denied a candy bar in the check out counter of the local wal- mart- please get with the program. HRC got 25 delegates out of this compromise. If you need to be over reactionary about 4 delegates, go ahead. But expect no sort of agreement. The rules committee did it's very difficult job admirably.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:39 PM on 06/03/2008

Please, vote for McCain. Do not corrupt the Obama supporters' votes with your vote! However, if you can evolve from your cave mentality by November, we welcome your vote.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:30 PM on 06/03/2008

It is so sad if that is all you got out of being a HRC supporter - loss of faith in your party and the country.
Why don't you read about the process by which votes and delegates were allocated? - both Fl and MI participated in the agreement, as did the candidates. If you are from one of those states, then work to change the future primary process. there.

Maybe then you can stop trying to rain on this incredibly historic moment in the history of our Democracy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:02 PM on 06/03/2008
- ginnypoo I'm a Fan of ginnypoo 7 fans permalink

Democracy? Not in this country.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:39 PM on 06/04/2008
- laborgrunt I'm a Fan of laborgrunt 4 fans permalink

With with all do respect ginnypoo, how can you with a straight face say democracy is dead in American because of the way the primaries were handled in MI and FL. Why didn't you object to the rules when they were first passed?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:25 PM on 06/03/2008
- ginnypoo I'm a Fan of ginnypoo 7 fans permalink

I did. I have written tons of emails to the DNC for months about this issue. Why do you assume things you don't know anything about?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:38 PM on 06/04/2008

Well now that Obama's the nominee, I'm guessing that caucuses will go by the wayside as soon as possible.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:22 PM on 06/03/2008

For a variety of reasons there's now a real push for election reform - both in primary or general elections. That's great. Consolidating all of the primaries into three or four regional primaries, eliminating delegate-voting and installing Instant Runoff Voting should be among the considerations.

The elimination of delegate-voting would make caucuses unnecessary, but I believe that this process is, as was pointed out above, a very positive aspect of the democratic process. Town hall meetings are, in a sense, open caucuses. Often there are votes taken, but only after a dialectic process. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis, right? If you believe in specific issues, or specific candidates, you can make a case without being allowed to wander off into tangents. Distraction is kept at a minimum. That is how a primary should be prosecuted, not by campaign consultancies, party hacks or lobbyists whose interests rarely mirror those of the voting public.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:16 PM on 06/03/2008

dude, your buggin. no debt at all. times do change and ickies had an army of people of color behind him too and women so cut the crap. quit sucking up to this dude. he didn't change the world just like barak wont.(by themselves.) ickies was doing his job and he wasn't the only passionate one. cut the oh look what i did nonsense. write about bringing us all together to work towards a people siciety instead of a me one. my bad, i'm preachin. do you

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:13 PM on 06/03/2008
- burnt I'm a Fan of burnt 7 fans permalink

"In private, a number of Clinton strategists now acknowledge that they made a disastrous, if not fatal, mistake in failing to recognize the profound impact of the caucuses on the delegate count."

They made so many mistakes... it was funny at first, but after a few months, it was just sad. Watching the delusional reactions to one mistake after another enshroud every next move, was educational in a psychodrama sort of way.

In your spin to put some good light on the Clinton Party's bad case of the Spinning Harry Ickes, you failed to point out one other obvious conclusion to his comedic strategy failure. If the DNC should change any part of it Rules and Bylaws, it first needs to make a revision that prevents a Committee Member from also serving on any political campaign in each current cycle. This conflict of interest that Ickes so patently evidenced in favor of the Clinton Party was next to obscene... and deserves condemnation. He WAS the "pig in lipstick" in that room.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:59 PM on 06/03/2008
- mknue I'm a Fan of mknue 7 fans permalink

The Clinton campaign has been promoting the misunderstanding that the Primary process is a kind of "pre-election" when, in fact, primaries are a way for the parties to poll their own members. The fact that some states allow non-committed voters to join in their primary election doesn't make them general elections. The parties then pick their favorite candidate. It's the reason for superdelegates. It's why the DNC punishing Michigan and Florida is not particularly "undemocratic," but rather an enforcement of party rules.

Perhaps now is the time to change the Constitution to make Primaries a "General Election part 1" in which everyone votes for their favorite candidate, instead of the political parties' private survey. It might allow independent candidates a real shot at winning the top post. And while we're at it, let's eliminate the electoral college. That way, the man or woman with THE MOST VOTES WINS.

Now, that's democracy!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:02 PM on 06/03/2008
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