Obama Backs Bill Giving Immunity To Telecoms

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The Huffington Post
First Posted: 06-20-08 04:25 PM   |   Updated: 06-28-08 05:12 AM

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Sen. Barack Obama's campaign released a statement Friday afternoon saying that while Obama opposes amnesty for telecom firms that spied on Americans, he will support the House compromise legislation.

The statement in full:

"Given the grave threats that we face, our national security agencies must have the capability to gather intelligence and track down terrorists before they strike, while respecting the rule of law and the privacy and civil liberties of the American people. There is also little doubt that the Bush Administration, with the cooperation of major telecommunications companies, has abused that authority and undermined the Constitution by intercepting the communications of innocent Americans without their knowledge or the required court orders.


"That is why last year I opposed the so-called Protect America Act, which expanded the surveillance powers of the government without sufficient independent oversight to protect the privacy and civil liberties of innocent Americans. I have also opposed the granting of retroactive immunity to those who were allegedly complicit in acts of illegal spying in the past.

"After months of negotiation, the House today passed a compromise that, while far from perfect, is a marked improvement over last year's Protect America Act.

"Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President's illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over. It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance - making it clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people. It also firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future. It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses. But this compromise guarantees a thorough review by the Inspectors General of our national security agencies to determine what took place in the past, and ensures that there will be accountability going forward. By demanding oversight and accountability, a grassroots movement of Americans has helped yield a bill that is far better than the Protect America Act.

"It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives - and the liberty - of the American people."

Also today, in an interview with Bloomberg's Al Hunt, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said he would attempt to remove the amnesty provision in the bill:

Reid said the Senate may try to remove a provision from the bill that shields telephone companies from privacy lawsuits. Holding a separate vote on that issue next week may provide political cover for Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama. Even though the attempt may fail, Reid said the vote would allow those opposed to the liability protection to "express their views."


"I'm going to try real hard to have a separate vote on immunity," Reid said in an interview to be aired this weekend on Bloomberg Television's "Political Capital with Al Hunt."

"Probably we can't take that out of the bill, but I'm going to try."

McJoan at Daily Kos writes, "That effort should be helped by Obama's opposition to the provision. His support of the remainder of the bill is disappointing, but that would be in large part offset if he can help kill immunity."

Sen. Barack Obama's campaign released a statement Friday afternoon saying that while Obama opposes amnesty for telecom firms that spied on Americans, he will support the House compromise legislation. ...
Sen. Barack Obama's campaign released a statement Friday afternoon saying that while Obama opposes amnesty for telecom firms that spied on Americans, he will support the House compromise legislation. ...
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- Forsetti I'm a Fan of Forsetti 70 fans permalink
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What is the substantive difference between this article: 'Obama Backs Bill Giving Immunity to Telecoms" and the one now on the front page of Huffpo: "Obama: No Immunity for Telecoms"? Absolutely nothing! The difference is in the headlines. One gives the impression that he is for immunity and against it in the other one. But in both articles he makes it very clear that while how FISA is going to be run from here on out is good and should be voted for, the telecom immunity provision needs to be taken out.

So what exactly does anyone who supports Obama have to be upset about in regard to his position?

What has he done or said that has betrayed his positions, ideals or beliefs? Nothing.

The headline of this article is misleading and too many posters seem to have played along without fully reading what he actually has said on the issue.

Oh ye of little faith.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:47 PM on 06/21/2008
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Can you imagine if someone suggested updating the Second Amendment?

I've supported Obama from the start. I'm rethinking that decision. This really was our last shot.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:46 PM on 06/21/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1679 fans permalink
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I just got through reading two pages and I'm dizzy with the spin: some clockwise, some counter-clockwise.

What the heck is so complicated here?

Retroactive immunity for corporations would set a very dangerous precedent. There is no doubt about it.

How can anyone argue that Obama should vote for a bill that includes immunity? He absolutely shouldn't.

Political expediency can be accepted, but not on something this important. C'mon!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:46 PM on 06/21/2008
- realistxxx I'm a Fan of realistxxx 3 fans permalink

To all of you outraged Constitutional law professors posting here. Define "unreasonable"

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I agree with a strict definition, so does 0bama but too many of our fellow citizens and their representatives do not.

The 4th amendment really isn't protected by FISA and not even by Congress or the Prez.

It is protected by our fellow citizens who serve in law enforcement and on the bench who act largely in good faith everyday to uphold the true spirit of the amendment.

While you ponder how the majority of your fellow citizens could have a different view of the 4th amendment or the Constitution on general, why don't you read up on these two acts:

"The Alien Registration Act" and the "Domestic Intelligence Proclamation". What scumbag fascists came up with these?

Our rights have never been stronger, although far from ideal. Your childish and simplistic view of your rights and the Constitution is dangerous. Ask a poor black or hispanic guy living inthe inner city what he thinks about FISA and the 4th amendment. FISA ain't got nothing to do with the most egregious breeches of civil liberties.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:42 PM on 06/21/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1679 fans permalink
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Lose the spin.

Any bill granting retroactive immunity to corporations would set a very damgerous precedent. O should not vote "yes" on such a bill.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:51 PM on 06/21/2008
- realistxxx I'm a Fan of realistxxx 3 fans permalink

It's not spin that the majority of Americans disagree with you. Act to change their minds.

0bama agrees with you but has decided not commit political suicide because he needs the majority of Americans to vote for him.

Reality sucks, deal with it and start helping your country work its way toward a more perfect union.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:56 PM on 06/21/2008
- lizr I'm a Fan of lizr 263 fans permalink
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He agrees with you, check the other article.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:17 PM on 06/21/2008
- Forsetti I'm a Fan of Forsetti 70 fans permalink
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To all of you outraged Constitutional law professors posting here. Define "unreasonable"

One of the best lines I've seen all day on this article. :)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:53 PM on 06/21/2008

I don't know where you learned your civics lessons but every member of the Judicial, Executive and the Legislative takes an oath to protect and defend the constitution. That includes protection of the 4th Amendment.

As a practical matter, I think the SCOTUS is going to have to interpret this case for us because when the 4th Amendment was written, we did not have the Internet and this scenario was not contemplated. It seems reasonable to assume that the warrantless wiretapping would be a violation of our 4th Amendment rights, with the exception that we are supposedly at war. The war in Iraq, as it turns out, was based on a fraudulent misrepresentation of the intel by the Bush Admin.

That brings me to the part that everyone keeps omitting in this discussion. What was the basis on which the claim was made that this spy program was necessary?

It may well turn out, like the manipulated intel that got us into Iraq, that the Bush Admin lied to Congress and the Telecoms to induce them into letting him have this program.

If it is proved that the basis for the need for this program was, in fact, fraudulent, we have a whole separate issue.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:40 PM on 06/21/2008

For those who want a different headline, one to include information about his true "opposition" to the telecom immunity, how about:

Obama Says He Will Vote for Bill That He Opposes

Or, one to show his leadership skills

Obama Leads by Showing Constitution Less Important Than Compromise

Or, one for the future for those who think that Obama is reserving the right to criminally prosecute the telecoms:

Obama Surprised by Bush's Pardon of Telecoms

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:33 PM on 06/21/2008
- milo9 I'm a Fan of milo9 11 fans permalink
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How many times have I read Sen. Feinstein say that " I will try..." "I will support..." " I will do my best...". All said as a preliminary or after the fact excuse not to do the right thing. Obama, allowing the crimes of the Administration to remain hidden under the guise Retro-Active Immunity, will be "The Original Sin" of his administraition. And will insure that he is a one term president.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:26 PM on 06/21/2008
- mmerose I'm a Fan of mmerose 11 fans permalink

Yep, it sounds to me like Obama has set himself up with "prospective immunity" for some token going through motions.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:06 PM on 06/21/2008
- lizr I'm a Fan of lizr 263 fans permalink
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Relax, and read his statement on Huffpo now.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:18 PM on 06/21/2008

Let's examine the situation.
Read his statement and contact your senators to voice your opinion instead of stumping your feet.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/06/21/politics/horserace/entry4200105.shtml

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:16 PM on 06/21/2008
- tommybones I'm a Fan of tommybones 19 fans permalink
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Posts like this are so irritating. Who says we haven't called and written to our representatives in regards to this matter? Just because we come in here and "stomp our feet" somehow means that's all we are doing?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:22 PM on 06/21/2008
- kellygrrrl I'm a Fan of kellygrrrl 643 fans permalink
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OK. I'm out
off to volunteer at the Civic Arts Plaza

I hear it's a lovely 110 degrees backstage today.

should be fun :(

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:15 PM on 06/21/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

heehee, sounds delightful!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:19 PM on 06/21/2008

Before you go, darlin', check out the top of the Home Page...dizzy...spinning...oooooh my...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:27 PM on 06/21/2008
- SeanOcali I'm a Fan of SeanOcali 36 fans permalink
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Thousand Oaks?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:19 AM on 06/22/2008
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Daer Barack Obama,

I was a big supporter of yours, but then you went and supported and yourself advanced a flim flam argument by gutless Democrats aimed at deceiving Americans about the sellout of our constitutional protections against arbitrary searchs and the rule of law.

I don't appreciate the deceit.

Unless this bill is stopped in the Senate (and I don't think it will be, no matter how you vote ) I plan to not vote for you in the fall.

I am unimpressed by your promises to try and remove the retroactive immunity clauses. The place to do that was in the house and the way to do that was not to insert it in the first place.

I will, however, call your office and send you mail on election day telling you why you do not deserve my vote.

Regards,

Oliver Twist

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:01 PM on 06/21/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

so you will vote for mcbush now? how is that helping the cause, brother?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:11 PM on 06/21/2008
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This is not some joke - or phoney ploy. I am a genuine progressive. I won't vote for McCain.

But if Obama can't bother to flex the muscle needed to get this immunity removed then I won't vote for him either.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:50 PM on 06/21/2008
- riverhouse I'm a Fan of riverhouse 55 fans permalink

You expect one senator to stop a bill? You're awfully naive. You'll blame a progressive Democrat but not the neocon Republicans? That's not logical. He has said he will support a filibuster once the bill reaches the Senate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:16 PM on 06/21/2008
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Yes, I expect the new leader of the democratic party to stop the bill and that includes voting against it after the filibuster is over. Unfortunately that's something that Barack has said he won't do.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:23 PM on 06/21/2008
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It's called a filibuster, the GOP has been using it against the Democrats for nearly two years now. I'd expect the Democratic Senators to use it once in awhile themselves.

Both Leahy and Feingold are against this bill. I'm sure there are others. If Obama is the defacto leader of the party as the candidate for POTUS he should not accept any bill that allows for warrantless spying on Americans. This bill does.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:25 PM on 06/21/2008
- riverhouse I'm a Fan of riverhouse 55 fans permalink

This is the singular most idiotic post I've ever seen. Here we are in the midst of national financial meltdown, getting our tails kicked in two unending follies of war, with no moral authority left in the world, despised across the globe, stuck with the most conniving, corrupt administration known to man, and Daisy blames the guy whose running for the presidency.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:30 PM on 06/21/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1679 fans permalink
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That's just silly.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:12 PM on 06/21/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

The White House had threatened to veto any surveillance bill that did not also shield the companies.

Critics say granting immunity to telecoms would scrap the pending lawsuits and prevent any public airing of details about the government's surveillance activities.

Last February, when an earlier version of the FISA bill came to a vote, Obama voted for an amendment to strip the telecom immunity provision from the bill. Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) voted in favor of keeping immunity for the telecoms.

Speaking in an interview to be aired on Bloomberg television this weekend, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said that he may schedule a separate vote on stripping immunity from the bill, although he expressed pessimism about its success.

"Probably we can't take that out of the bill, but I'm going to try," Reid told "Political Capital with Al Hunt."

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/06/21/politics/horserace/entry4200105.shtml

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:47 PM on 06/21/2008
- Lemeritus I'm a Fan of Lemeritus 112 fans permalink
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As far as I'm concerned, the "noble jaw-jaw" about trying to strip immunity from the bill is just so much peanuts to the gallery. The die, as Caesar said, is cast. There are only two things left to do -- start pulling out your hankies or your excuses.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:04 PM on 06/21/2008
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Not voting for McCain is a no brainer.

Not voting for Obama is an unfortunate responsibility. Shilly shally flim flam arguments and phoney promises to "try" to do the right thing are not good enough.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:06 PM on 06/21/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

i disagree.

who will you vote for?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:13 PM on 06/21/2008
- emmav70 I'm a Fan of emmav70 5 fans permalink

I am posting " M3Man" comment from the other thread .


M3Man wrote :

" It is equally interesting to see many anxious to contribute more to make Obama's campagn truly financed by the people, and to see many willing to dump him over the FISA vote.

Politics is a tough business. If you want to win, you have to make some compromises, throw some elbows and make some judgements. It appears Obama did not think he could afford to give the Republicans this vote, and let them bash him for 5 months for being soft on terrorism. I'll bet the McCain camp had to scrap some pre-thought ads they were planning to use on this. I see this vote not as principle, but as strategy. And while its nice to think of your candidate as standing up to Bush, if he does it in a way that costs him the election, thats just dumb politics."

Makes lot of sense , doesn't it ?

Everybody, stop whining and support Barack, he knows what he is doing . That's exactly what I expect him to do.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:45 PM on 06/21/2008
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If Obama wants to win with the support of the people then he needs to be truthful with the people.

No compromise was or is needed here. FISA will not go away if no bill is passed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:09 PM on 06/21/2008
- janvoght I'm a Fan of janvoght 8 fans permalink
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thank you for putting this in prospective. not being politically saavy, it's easy to trip on these types of issues. i understand fully with your very simple and enlightening explanation. :-)
obama '08 & 2012

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:19 PM on 06/21/2008
- tommybones I'm a Fan of tommybones 19 fans permalink
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Yeah, we should all stop "whining" about protecting our 4th amendment rights and holding lawbreakers accountable. Instead, we should "trust" the politician who swears, this time, he is really gonna do the right thing... eventually. Great idea.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:25 PM on 06/21/2008
- Lemeritus I'm a Fan of Lemeritus 112 fans permalink
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"Politics is a tough business. If you want to win, you have to make some compromises..."

I didn't hear this great call for understanding when Hillary Clinton was still running. No one was saying, "She knows what she's doing." All we have to do is believe.

A couple of weeks ago, as I recall, we all had a pretty good idea of what we wanted this party to stand for, we were talking about ideals and principles, and, by the way, not only was Obama the change we could believe in, but we were the wind beneath his wings with our contributions... $25 here, $100 or $500 there. We had a pretty good idea of who he was and what we wanted.

Now it's just about the election and the blind faith that he'll be a more steadfast president than candidate. All we have to do is believe, clap if you believe in Tinkerbell.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:26 PM on 06/21/2008
- gloriar8 I'm a Fan of gloriar8 4 fans permalink

O. gave the prisoners at Gitmo more support, when he said that he agreed with the supreme court's decision to follow the constitution. So, we don't get the same protection. He let them bash him on no Iraq war.

I support O., not as much as before, because I will be holding my nose once again for just another politician. And Emma7, although I support a politician, I don't like kool-aid. You sound like you have bought the whole shebang.

To get my vote and money, I hold their feet to the fire. How in the hell do you know, that he knows what he's doing? Did he consult you? I now see what others have talked about some O. supporters are drinking the kool-aid. And if you and others like you don't fight for your rights then get the hell out of the way and let the others of us protect ours. Since when is standing up for one's rights whining? People like you are very scary!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:27 PM on 06/21/2008
- gotalife I'm a Fan of gotalife 22 fans permalink

Bring Clinton back.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:40 PM on 06/21/2008

LOL.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:44 PM on 06/21/2008
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Dodd was the only with balls on the telecom issue

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:11 PM on 06/21/2008
- kellygrrrl I'm a Fan of kellygrrrl 643 fans permalink
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oh, gee! that's helpful

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:46 PM on 06/21/2008
- Daisy1111 I'm a Fan of Daisy1111 8 fans permalink

Actually it's possible at the convention.

But Dean wants to take Hillary off the convention ballot to make sure any Obama delegates experiencing buyers remorse don't use the DEMOCRATIC PROCESS to bump Obama out.

Dean has successfuly screwed with the DEMOCRATIC PROCESS so far. I'm sure he'll do it again.

The DNC Convention will be a coronation. We don't need any floor votes at the convention -- that's way to much like a real democracy, right?

You Obama supporters swapped neo-cons for neo liberals. Two sides of the same troublesome pro-corporate, pro Nafta coin.

Oh - and if Obama gets the presidency, don't hold your breath waiting for troop withdrawal.

HE'lls flip flop on that one too -- he's already making noises on that so prepare yourselves for another let down.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:52 PM on 06/21/2008
- emmav70 I'm a Fan of emmav70 5 fans permalink

I was beyond excited when Hillary started her campaign and donated money too . You want to talk about let down ? She was the biggest let down from day one of her campaign. But thank God Barack came along !

And would you please stop with that Convention already ? It's not even funny anymore .

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:06 PM on 06/21/2008
- riverhouse I'm a Fan of riverhouse 55 fans permalink

She has voted the neocon line exactly as the gop has.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:52 PM on 06/21/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1679 fans permalink
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If you live in Kentucky, I'm all for it. Take her and keep her there.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:09 PM on 06/21/2008

I have a question.

Does this bill as written offer retroactive immunity for the telecoms, or blanket immunity for perpetuity?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:38 PM on 06/21/2008
- plainsman I'm a Fan of plainsman 17 fans permalink
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As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the bill only offers retroactive immunity as it pertains to civil litigation, while leaving the door open for possible criminal penalties brought by the DOJ at a later date. But, the updates to the FISA portion of the bill basically make what was illegal about the spying program, legal, thereby making future criminal litigation unlikely. I think that's the gist of it. ??

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:04 PM on 06/21/2008
- SaulGood I'm a Fan of SaulGood 33 fans permalink

the way i heard it on npr, and i could also be wrong, was that as long as they have a letter from the president stating he asked for the surveillance, then it is considered "legal"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:06 PM on 06/21/2008

There must be complicity on the part of the Democrats in this decision to extend retroactive immunity to the companies that with little, or no hesitation, except for one, allowed the government to do as it willed.
The current administration and all the cronies and cogs that were involved in this circumvention of our inalienable rights NEED to face repercussions in addition to the companies that enabled it. STRONG repercussions. I want them hung out to dry. We cannot allow this type of REGIME to gain power again. We allowed our fears to get the better of us. And the Executive TOOK more power upon itself than we realized. Now here we are.
After reading Senator Obama's statement, I do not understand the need to hurry up and pass this legislation. Why not wait for his Presidency to begin, and his coattails to bring about a bulletproof majority that could handle this without comprimise? I would like to know the impetus for the rush..
Complicity? Everyone in such a hurry? Something isn't right here. Could our much desired CHANGE be nothing more than - more of the SAME?
Tune in next week I guess. I have written and called and written and called some more. I will DEFINATELY be watching what Obama and the powers that be in the House and Senate ultimately say and do in reference to this.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:33 PM on 06/21/2008
- kevenseven I'm a Fan of kevenseven 501 fans permalink
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Alright, despite Splash's need to lie and make O bama the villain, the fact is that immunity (a horrid thing though it is) does NOT obviate the responsibility of the telecos to give full testimony before grand juries or Congress.

If called, they would be forced to give testimony.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:27 PM on 06/21/2008
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How are you gong to force them kev? They'll have immunity. You can only force them if there is a threat of prosecution. But there won't be that threat because Barack gave them immunity.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:31 PM on 06/21/2008
- kellygrrrl I'm a Fan of kellygrrrl 643 fans permalink
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but you obviously agree that giving immunity rightfully rubs many of us the wrong way?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:34 PM on 06/21/2008
- kevenseven I'm a Fan of kevenseven 501 fans permalink
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Nor does it provide any formal immunity to Bu sh and his cronies.

It does, I regret, make it less likely that Bu sh will ever be prosecuted, but there really was no chance of that anyway.

And don't come back at me with "so it's alright..."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:36 PM on 06/21/2008
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You're right kev.. it doesn't grant Bush co formal immunity. It just makes any investigation into team Bush irrelevant from the start because nobody has to cooperate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:44 PM on 06/21/2008
- kellygrrrl I'm a Fan of kellygrrrl 643 fans permalink
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just sent an email to Mr. Burton
made a call and sent emails to Senator's office yesterday.

It's not all right, and I know you, of all people, feel the same.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:44 PM on 06/21/2008
- jrterrier I'm a Fan of jrterrier 5 fans permalink

oh, that's really scary. they'll get up there and say that they were asked to spy, and were told it was for the national security. cue in the music. and give them a medal. welcome to the politics of change.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:44 PM on 06/21/2008
- kevenseven I'm a Fan of kevenseven 501 fans permalink
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If they testify that they were asked to spy, then the fact that Bu sh violated FISA on a million occasions would be established in sworn testimony.

There is no immunity in there for Bu sh's crimes. Just hurdles to get the evidence.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:59 PM on 06/21/2008
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