Serenity Lost: Obama And The Netroots

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First Posted: 06-25-08 11:30 AM   |   Updated: 07- 3-08 05:12 AM

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Only weeks into the general election campaign and already a notable tension is beginning to materialize within the Democratic Party. At question is Sen. Barack Obama's relationship with the progressive netroots, the online community that helped aid the Senator's rise to the presidential nomination, but has since seemingly played second fiddle in terms of courted constituencies.

Obama's decision to embrace a compromise on FISA legislation -- a virtual slap in the face to some progressive bloggers demanding no legal immunity for telecommunications companies -- was the catalyst of the recent chatter. Other concerns arose days prior when Obama cut an advertisement on behalf of a conservative southern Democrat whose primary challenger was favored by the liberal blogosphere.

But for some progressive activists, the issue is not simply one of policy, but a concern that Obama's willingness to snub their political wishes is far more endemic.

"You can see it with FISA. He really doesn't feel that much kinship with the priorities of the netroots and I don't think he has made any secret of that," said Jane Hamsher of Firedoglake. "I have to say he is very consistent. He has gone outside the netroots for his strategy... People who feel betrayed right now, I'm not sure why, because it is extremely consistent with what they should have expected."

Indeed, there is ample evidence to suggest that Obama's standing with the netroots has not always been peachy. Prior to his victory in Iowa, he consistently trailed former Sen. John Edwards (and, on occasion, Chris Dodd) in the Daily Kos primary poll. Even before then, his (now-chilled) relationship with Sen. Joseph Lieberman as well as an essay he posted (again on Daily Kos) concerning Supreme Court nominations earned him some plaudits but also skepticism among some prominent online voices.

As a former aide to Sen. Hillary Clinton told The Huffington Post, had the New York Democrat not had her own problems with the crowd, her campaign would have been a far more natural home for the progressive netroots.

"I don't understand why a group like MoveOn backs Obama," said the aide. "Hillary is the one who will build up the Democratic infrastructure. She's the one promising to fight the ideological battles. He's the one who is talking about moving beyond partisanship. And they love him for it."

Such an argument, however, assumes that the primary goal of major online progressives and their audiences is aggressive partisanship. Some want that. But many are also cognizant of another pressing reality: the need to win. And, as such, there is a willingness to cut Obama a bit of political slack.

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"The number of people Obama's campaign has brought into the political process and the development of the netroots progressive movement has been an important convergence in this election," said Ilyse Hogue, Communications Director of Moveon.org. "But it is not an endpoint. Our goal remains to hold the ground on any issue that matters to the progressive community. [Obama's] goal is... to get elected, to be honest, but also to understand the power of who's electing him. We have reason to be optimistic about that."

Moreover, the desires of the progressive netroots and the realities of the Electoral College are not always at odds. For instance, Obama's decision to forgo public financing in the general election - while viewed sourly among good government groups - was a welcomed move among the most prominent Democratic bloggers.

Others, meanwhile, have been willing to reserve judgment regarding his position on FISA, albeit with demands that he works to defeat the compromise.

"We'll see what he does this week," said Markos Moulitsas of Daily Kos. "If he's part of the capitulation or refuses to lead, then it's salient for your story. As of now, I think it's still too early to write this piece."

And, it should be noted, there will undoubtedly be future issues in which Obama and the netroots rally to the same cause (foremost, of course, being the general election). As experts of campaigns past can attest, the internal dynamics within the Senator's headquarters inevitably leave one group or another disappointed.

"There is always a tension between what the Internet department is able to put out and what all the other departments want," said Tim Tagaris, Ned Lamont's Internet Director during the 2006 Senate and an aide in similar capacity to Chris Dodd's campaign in '08. "The question is what battles do you want to fight, because it is a battle everyday. And he's not going to win it all the time because there are people on staff who have been doing this for decades and the Internet as a political tool is relative new."

But clearly, at this point in time, the honeymoon period that Obama enjoyed for the latter part of the Democratic primary and the first weeks of the general election seems to be setting. And a tug-of-war of sorts could soon emerge between progressive bloggers and the Senator, both over campaign positions as well as the affections of Democrats.

Salon.com's Glenn Greenwald offered an opening salvo by chastising Obama supporters for a willingness to rationalize their candidate's position on FISA in a way that was "unhealthy in the extreme." While at the Personal Democracy Forum, the Senator's new-media guru, Joe Rospars, was forced to dispute the premise of an assertion that his candidate was "stand-offish" with the blogs.

"Where we see that he is consistent with the netroots is his organizing and belief in organizing," explained Hogue. "Obviously there is some policy divergence which is crystallizing this week. And that's not incredibly surprising, We still have some work to do as a progressive movement to not just have candidates speak about our issues but act on our issues."

Correction: an earlier version implied that Glenn Greenwald referred to Obama supporters as "Obamabots." He did not.

Only weeks into the general election campaign and already a notable tension is beginning to materialize within the Democratic Party. At question is Sen. Barack Obama's relationship with the progressiv...
Only weeks into the general election campaign and already a notable tension is beginning to materialize within the Democratic Party. At question is Sen. Barack Obama's relationship with the progressiv...
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- The5thW I'm a Fan of The5thW 6 fans permalink

What I'm seeing is the same censorship on the left as on the right. Kieth Oberman exhibit A. The job of bloggers is not seen as an informed citizenry but as lockstep conformity. Unfortunately this is the internet age, where a curious person can get truth with a few mouse clicks. It is also an age of instantaneous blowback against deception. We thought Obama knew that. I wish I could save him the cost of learning it. In a matter of weeks, the veil of credibility has been stripped from the so-called American left. I know my own blog reading and Air America listening has dropped drastically as the essential dishonesty of these organs emerges. Usual suspects and the same tired "ideas", welcome back.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:36 PM on 06/26/2008

A republican friend said to me yesterday -- that's what we republicans love about democrats you eat your own. Meaning they don't have to destroy us we'll do it to ourselves. Reading some of these post makes that statement all so real.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:59 PM on 06/26/2008
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Obama remains the hero of the netroots. Together we will restore this country to its former glory.

YES WE CAN!

Obama 08.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:17 PM on 06/26/2008

Face it "Progressives" you been PUNKED! Hey but keep that money rollin in to the fraud!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:59 PM on 06/26/2008

These guys should take a lesson from John Conyers. Today he asked Torture enabeler Yoo if it was OK to bury someone alive in order to get information form them.

Similarly Is it OK to break the law becasue you think you are doing the right thing in the big picture...My answere is NO NO A THOUSAND TIME NO! And that is what Barry is agreeing to that it is OK to break the law and then get the law changed so you didn't break the law after all. YUUUUCCCK makes me sick!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:52 PM on 06/26/2008

Shortly after the 2004 election, some bright, diligent, courageous people wrought “The Conyers Report” concerning how the GOP stole Ohio from Kerry. The Report and other evidence showed Kerry would have won Ohio had the GOP not used fraud, extortion, poll machinery fouling, and other criminal means to give Bush Ohio.

Conyers could have won the matter in the lower courts. The Supreme Court could not have given Bush the election according to the facts and law, but only by the fraud, sophistry, and dirty tricks of the “Conservative” Justices, whose lawlessness and fraud stole the 2000 election from Gore. But Kennedy regretted his year-2000 vote in Bush v. Gore. So, Conyers had a shot at putting Kerry in the White House.

Yet, to maintain personal position in the House, Conyers capitulated to the GOP's House power-structure -- promised to do nothing if the House Republicans would let him publish the Report. Then, shortly before the 2006 election, on national TV, Conyers promised that if the Democrats took the House, he, Conyers, would push through the Judiciary Committee a serious investigation of whether Bush and Cheney committed impeachable offenses.

The Dems took the House. Conyers did nothing.

Kucinich introduced a Cheney impeachment Bill. Conyers sat on it, as if it were an infertile egg.

Then, pressed to act, Conyers said the Judiciary Committee would consider the Kucinich Bill if 14 House Members co-sponsored it. About 25 co-sponsored it. Conyers refused to act.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:24 AM on 06/27/2008

I jumped onboard early because of one thing: Obama will not pander to the fringes. He did not during the primary and he will not now. He is a common-sense leader, and common sense falls somewhere in the middle. We see how pandering to the CENTER OF THE PARTY is turning McCain into a flip-flopping buffoon.

Indeed, some of Obama's stances are left, some are middle and some even -- gasp! -- lean a little right. I'm OK with that. Common-sense leadership is what America needs, not more of the same party-first crap we've had since 1968.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:31 PM on 06/26/2008
- reelcobra I'm a Fan of reelcobra 7 fans permalink

Interesting.

Other than his complete reversals in the last week or so of long-held positions while trying to get votes from normal non-radical Americans, can you name any issue where Obama is not far left?

Even one please?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:08 PM on 06/26/2008
- hu.man I'm a Fan of hu.man 11 fans permalink
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If Obama is far left then what about Kucinich & Edwards. They must be far ^ far left! Be careful to not fall of the edge!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:45 PM on 06/26/2008

Obama is far left? Huh? Even by American standards, he's largely been a centrist.

Take this inventory and compare yourself to the candidates before reaching too quick a conclusion:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:40 PM on 06/26/2008
- iLogos I'm a Fan of iLogos 6 fans permalink

The sheer lack of familiarity with FISA, the attempts to update and what immunity means in this bill and what else it accomplishes is deeply troubling.

I honestly can't believe progressive bloggers are this ignorant of the facts. It makes me wonder how many people posting are in fact ditto-heads attempting to sow dissension.

If you are a progressive, read the bill in full. Read the bill creating FISA. Read Sen. Obama's stance on the new bill. Then let the Rush "operatives" spew their bile with no effect.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:43 PM on 06/26/2008
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Okay ILogos, since you are indirectly claiming to be of such superior knowledge than everyone else on the FISA bill surely you understand

1. The reason the bill is on the table is not because the repubs are trying to cast Obama as weak on national security. It is because the existing surveillance certificates expire in August and if nothing is done, there will be no means of surveillance or oversight.

2. Immunity means people will not be able to take civil action against companies. This is a violation of our 4th Amendment rights to privacy because not only were they violated, but the discovery process which is where the truth comes out in litigation is denied. That is a blatant obstruction of justice. It is the more base right we have to bring justice in this country--it lies with the people. If you don't get that, you're lost.

3. This bill further allows the govt to wiretap without individual warrants, just mass one.

Why don't you read the bill and then come back and offer some real content and value to your post. You're in the same sphere with people who know what they are talking about so bring something more to the table than a criticism.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:43 PM on 06/26/2008
- WilburM I'm a Fan of WilburM 4 fans permalink

"It is because the existing surveillance certificates expire in August and if nothing is done, there will be no means of surveillance or oversight."

we can dream, can't we?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:42 AM on 06/27/2008

I understand the disappointment, but I think that some people are expecting too much at this stage. I think it's really hard, being liberals, not to want the liberal agenda to rule the country like the conservative one has been doing for the past eight years--but Obama has to appease more people than just us. Unifying everyone doesn't mean bringing everyone around to the liberal side--though I'll admit, heheh, that that would be kind of nice. Most importantly, though, he won't be able to do anything for anyone if he can't get elected first.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:28 PM on 06/26/2008
- EdCoughlin I'm a Fan of EdCoughlin 11 fans permalink

This is NOT a "liberal" issue. The ACLU is not, in fact, a liberal institution (though lately conservatives claim it is, since they seem to be the ones wishing to repress rights lately even though they are the party of personal responsibility in theory). Whether you're a libertarian Ron Paul lover who wants no government or a socialist supporter of Kusinich on the other side doesn't matter, this agreement is bad for ALL Americans. Not only that, most Americans of all stripes realize that.

In a 2008 Melman poll almost 6 out of 10 respondants were against immunity and warrantless wiretapping. Not only the expected nearly 70% of liberals, but almost 60% of independents AND more then half of conservatives. There is no constituency that is for gutting the 4th amendment in any party with any kind of majority. This is bad for every last one of us no matter our politics and that the democrats, Obama in particular, went along with this sham shows that they are nothing more then tweedle dee to the rights tweedle dumb.

Louis Black said it best "the Democrats are the party of no ideas and the Republican party is the party of bad ideas. The Republicans say 'we have a bad idea' and the democrats say 'we can make it Sh!tier'"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:26 PM on 06/26/2008
- reelcobra I'm a Fan of reelcobra 7 fans permalink

Funny you close with a quote by a comedian. Is that a wink, admitting that the rest of that nonsense you just wrote was a joke, Ed?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:12 PM on 06/26/2008
- WilburM I'm a Fan of WilburM 4 fans permalink

"Whether you're a libertarian Ron Paul lover who wants no government or a socialist supporter of Kusinich on the other side doesn't matter, this agreement is bad for ALL Americans. Not only that, most Americans of all stripes realize that."

exactly.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:09 AM on 06/27/2008

Yeah don't expect the Senate or individual senators to uphold the constitution...not in an electon year any way. BO just wants to get this behind him so he doesn't have to talk about it during the fall. He is a chump and you are all stuck with him. Where ya gonna run to now that he has you in his pocket? SUCCKKKEEEERRS!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:41 PM on 06/26/2008
- WilburM I'm a Fan of WilburM 4 fans permalink

"Most importantly, though, he won't be able to do anything for anyone if he can't get elected first."

see... this is the hidden premise in all this that I just don't buy. I think doing the right thing re: FISA and the telecoms could end up being the superior strategy. do what's right; explain your actions later. make a speech:

"some of you might not understand my reasons for voting against this bill but let me explain: America is a great country precisely because of its liberty and the principles that created it. Principles like the right to have freedom from the snooping eyes and ears of government, the principle of law and so on. My opponent will tell you that this bill is here to fight terror and that I am 'soft' on keeping our country safe. I am here to tell you that this kind of bill, if allowed to become law, could do more damage to our country and our freedoms than 100 terrorist bombs.

"sometimes doing the right thing is not the easiest path... but it's the only path that allows us to keep our identity as a great nation and allows us to keep the freedom that is the archenemy of violence designed to destroy it. I am going to continue to try to do the right thing in my responsibility to all of you and to our country to do my part to keep America the America we want it to be."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:01 AM on 06/27/2008
- LongTom I'm a Fan of LongTom 6 fans permalink

You think "doing the right thing" about the FISA bill may be the correct strategy. Are you a political strategist? Is it possible you are wrong? How about if the surveillance stops because of inactionon the bill and there's an attack in October? Would it be the better strategy THEN?

Why not let Obama do what he's doing? He's a terrific candidate with progessive stances on most every issue. You're not always going to agree with either his positions or his strategy, and neither do I, but it's all worked pretty well for him this far.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:52 PM on 06/27/2008
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I couldn't care less about the liberal OR conservative agenda. I want a President who cares about what is best for the citizens of this country, not just his party or his largest contributors. I want a president who stands by his word and means what he says. I guess I'll be waiting another four years for any hope of that. At least.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:36 AM on 06/28/2008
- LeoMarvin I'm a Fan of LeoMarvin 35 fans permalink
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... never missing a chance to make the perfect the enemy of the good.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:02 PM on 06/26/2008

Anyone who thinks that either Obama or Hillary have been, or will be, anything other than operators in favor of big monied interests has his/her head in the sand. Both have been, with fair consistency, advocates of policies and positions that favor the interests of big money and have not supported the interests of the poor or middle class. Anyone expecting anything different from either of them is a fool. That can't disappoint because there never was a realistic possibility of anything better from either one of them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:54 PM on 06/26/2008

Some of you are willing to forgive O$ama anything. Yet you skewered Hil!ary. She would have been the best choice.

You all bought into the "change" marketing. O$ama is just another politician-you'll see this more and more as you really get to know him. The Obama campaign had all of you pegged and you fell for it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:46 PM on 06/26/2008
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It was a great marketing campaign by Obama. Apparently that is what primary campaigns are about. I wonder if it will work in the GE.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:47 PM on 06/26/2008
- Tulka2 I'm a Fan of Tulka2 295 fans permalink
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Well, i am an old lady who is part of Obama's net roots and i am not disappointed. I read history and think we are watching one of the great political minds. I expected to be "handled". It's okay. It's great! This guy can go the distance. Obama's history is one of taking baby steps to his goal. You want a man to commit political suicide right away? Obama is a great political chess player. Obama takes baby steps, but he is no babe in the woods. Oh, i know he will break my heart, but, after all, are picking a politician, not the Dalai Lama.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:53 PM on 06/26/2008
- rpmcestmoi I'm a Fan of rpmcestmoi 9 fans permalink

And I am on old guy who thinks Obama may be the Bobby Kennedy we never got, but for the madness of an assassin's bullet.

Perfect? Not that I can see. But the best of the lot for a very long time because he has the intellect, the temperament, and the good will of a majority to bring him to a height at which he will operate in the national and rational world interest.

With marginal loonies like McCain, Nader, Rove (aka Satan) posed against him, how can he lose?

Perhaps I will wash away that memory of an early Cleveland morning when I stood in line to board, not quite sure that the radio had been correct; that time when Diebold made good on its promise and the Supreme Court decided that there was a national emergency that required that they invent law making the $600-billion war president president.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:12 PM on 06/26/2008

I'm a nearly thirty guy and I agree with you both. My mom ran for mayor of my small town and won. As a political outsider, every move she made was shot down and she was voted out after one term. In the end it was great for her, and probably for the city as well, but I have no illusions as to political greatness coming from sticking to confusing views of the way left.

I wonder how many of them understand just what a bizarre state international law is in on international spying? According to the group Privacy International, only talking to our friends in Greece is adequately protected from the Grecian govt. So hence... any calls we make internationally could be wiretapped... but not by our government? We should stand up for our core American rights, but this is an international law enacted by our government. If FISA was about spying on calls within the US I'd be worried.

Finally, it's so behind the times, anyone concerned with true private, encrypted communication has switched to VOIP long ago.

Don't even get me started on email "privacy." Use PGP if you're concerned.

And yes, it's sad that we live in a world where we have to be concerned about people stealing our data and doing bad things with it, but that's been true ever since hunters wanted to protect their info on prime hunting spots from other hunters.

-Rich

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:03 PM on 06/26/2008
- WilburM I'm a Fan of WilburM 4 fans permalink

"You want a man to commit political suicide right away? "

again... why are we accepting as fact that being against immunity for the telecoms (and, by extentsion the Administration) is 'political suicide'?

I want data... facts... hard evidence. I don't buy it. middle America cares more about the Constitution and fair play than they do anything with acronyms. All that Obama would have to do is sell it with the right speech and he'd come out looking like George Washington and Abe Lincoln rolled into one.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:06 AM on 06/27/2008

It is understandable that, in the face of large obstacles (e.g. a Congress dominated by special interests), Obama would not alone be able to get us out of Iraq, implement universal health care, phase out the tax cuts for the rich, reduce the dependence of our economy on fossil fuels, and use fiscal policy and international leadership to create better economic conditions for working and middle-class Americans. We know that we need to remain active and engaged, and elect in other positions of power people aligned with this agenda.

The troubling thing is that Obama, when you scratch the rhetorical surface, seems uncommitted to that progressive agenda. He should take note though, and avoid misreading the evidence. He prevailed over Hillary Clinton because many of us who voted for him saw Clinton's support of Bush's decision to invade Iraq as a deal breaker. Obama has given us the impression that, opposed to the invasion from the start and critical of the occupation as he's been, he'd order the withdrawal with relatively few ifs or buts. I know that was a gamble and it will remain one until we see him take action -- or not.

If he doesn't deliver, many of us are going to turn against him. I will. What is the point of supporting a politician is he's not going to serve as an instrument to accomplish the goals of us citizens? We will keep getting self-serving politicians for as long as we enable them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:39 PM on 06/26/2008
- indeevoter I'm a Fan of indeevoter 7 fans permalink

Get a grip, Pancho. There are 350 million of "us citizens"...which means there are probably 350 million opinions about what goals the next president needs to accomplish. Which means, there are 349 million opinions besides yours!

You support a politician because you believe HE is more likely to address the issues important to you than the other guy is. THAT'S IT. That's all you get...and frankly, that's all you can reasonably expect.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:50 PM on 06/26/2008

Are there 350 million opinions about the success or failure of the occupation of Iraq? Are there 350 million opinions about the need of leaving Iraq or lack thereof? Are there 350 million opinions about whether or not the continuous occupation of Iraq is in the best interest of regular working-class and middle-class Americans? 350 million opinions about the need or lack thereof of universal health care? Really?!! Who needs to get a grip?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:11 PM on 06/26/2008
- mjc I'm a Fan of mjc 13 fans permalink

Can't help but agree, panchovilla. He isn't a babe in the woods and he has had a plan to be president of the US for years. He seemed to many to be pure, terribly progressive and absolutely honest and innocent of the sleeze that we associate most often with politicians with lots and lots of experience. He turned that perceived image of himself into a real reason for folks to vote for him. So if he now turns against campaign finance reform and supports FISA everyone has the right to ask him what happened. No fancy excuses; just give us the facts. When trust goes out the window, you are left with who who might be the most competent. George Bush couldn't even gives us that. Now I question whether Obama could deliver on that too.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:57 PM on 06/26/2008
- mjc I'm a Fan of mjc 13 fans permalink

Posted a response to you, pancho, but while it appears in my profile it does not appear here. If he isn't going to be the progressive everyone of the Obamacons thought he is, I just hope he'll be a more competent executive than W. But don't have much hope since he so turned on his liberal leanings, and there is probably more to come.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:16 PM on 06/26/2008

Obama is the “change” candidate -- changes like Hillary & McCain. Oh, he doesn't lie -- like Hillary or McCain. He plays Bill's game: “It depends on what 'is' is.” “Oral sxx is not SXX.”

“I said I want telecom accountability, to protect 4th amendment rights -- and I'd do all I could to block immunity.

“But the 4th amendment doesn't apply to telecoms. I meant I wanted accountability AND ALSO to protect 4th amendment rights (against Presidential intrusion). Notice the comma between 'accountability' and 'to protect' of my last paragraph.

“I did NOT say I'd trash national security -- when I said I want telecom accountability. And wanting is not the same as having for unbearable cost -- like 'national security' loss.

“Yes. National security includes security of privacy. Soon I'll explain how destroying privacy makes privacy secure -- when I find the right prose.

“I saw -- yesterday -- that national security trumps telecom accountability despite telecoms invaded privacies of millions, millions of times. Telecoms will not secure privacy by invading privacy if they're accountable for invasions. So yesterday I saw that national security trumps privacy ... er, trumps accountability. I DID 'all' I could to block immunity. In this case, 'all' = nothing.”

Obama is Bill wearing blackface. (Bill was the first Black president.) Obama is Hillary after gender-change. (Women lie. Men speak dissembling prose.)

Vote for a THIRD party candidate. Show you won't settle for lesser evil. Mussolini was evil as Hitler despite he harmed less.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:18 PM on 06/26/2008

Are you old enought to remember 2000? Do you remember what voting for a third party got us...its name was george bush. So if you are comfortable with mccain, by all means, vote third party, but don't think for a minuted that your vote counts for anything more than a vote for Obama's opponent.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:05 PM on 06/26/2008

loupbouc is right. Vote for a 3d party candidate (Barr, Nader, the candidate of the Green Party, Nudist Party, the Intergalactic Coalition of Atheist Pyramid-wearers...), or write in Gore or Kucinich.

In national leaders, evil is not a matter of degree -- one wrong tolerable if measurably less than another. Murdering 1,000 is evil as murdering 50,000.

Some say Obama will keep his progressive promises when President -- magically, undo retroactive telecom immunity (though that may be unconstitutional), remove his nose from the recess of AIPAC's derriere. But if he may betray his last assurances as he betrayed earlier, inconsistent ones, he may behave even worse as President. Instead of shunning AIPAC, he may invade Iran. Instead of reversing telecom immunity, he may spy on us worse than Bush did.

Obama says he'll foster bipartisanship. Obama MEANS he'll blur the wee difference between the GOP and Democrat Party.

I'd struggled to give Obama benefit of doubt. Though I wouldn't vote for Obama (but Bob Barr, for reason I put above), I defended Obama against Neocon attacks, because I hoped he'd be better than McCain.

But after backing off his promise of talking unconditionally with Iran, after sucking up to AIPAC, after saying he opposes the death penalty then arguing we ought execute child-rapers who do not kill, and after shifting positions regarding many other issues -- now Obama turns on everything he said about FISA and telecom immunity.

Obama is Machiavellian as McCain, but more dangerous, because smarter.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:20 PM on 06/26/2008
- doglove I'm a Fan of doglove 37 fans permalink
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My favorite part is;

"don't worry now because I'll be the one watching over you"

hahhhahahhhahaaaaaaa!

That was a very quick honeymoon!

He UNITED THE PARTY!!!! For about two weeks.

I get sick when I look at him, a slick used car salesman. Empty suit corporatist.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:16 PM on 06/26/2008
- Brillig I'm a Fan of Brillig 11 fans permalink

He's probably sick of you too. He might to you be a has-been, but surely to him you are a "never-was"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:24 PM on 06/26/2008
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