Keith Olbermann, Glenn Greenwald Feud Over FISA

A war of words has broken out between two of the progressive blogosphere's most beloved figures: MSNBC's Keith Olbermann and blogger/author Glenn Greenwald of Salon.com.

In a post yesterday, Greenwald charged that Olbermann's "blind devotion to Barack Obama" had let him to excuse and defend Obama's support of the FISA 'compromise' legislation. Greenwald noted that Olbermann has previously condemned the idea of giving immunity to telecom companies that spied on Americans, calling it a "shameless, breathless, literally textbook example of Fascism" and comparing it to the actions of the Third Reich.

"But," Greenwald wrote, "[n]ow that Barack Obama supports a law that does the same thing -- and now that Obama justifies that support by claiming that this bill is necessary to keep us Safe from the Terrorists -- everything has changed."

Last night, Olbermann invited Newsweek's Jonathan Alter onto his show to discuss Obama's support for the FISA and telecom amnesty bill (video of the segment is here). There wasn't a syllable uttered about "immunizing corporate criminals" or "textbook examples of Fascism" or the Third Reich. There wasn't a word of rational criticism of the bill either. Instead, the two media stars jointly hailed Obama's bravery and strength -- as evidenced by his "standing up to the left" in order to support this important centrist FISA compromise. [...]

Grave warning on Olbermann's show that telecom amnesty and FISA revisions were hallmarks of Bush Fascism instantaneously transformed into a celebration that Obama, by supporting the same things, was leading a courageous, centrist crusade in defense of our Constitution.

There's much more -- you can read Greenwald's full post here. And Olbermann responded with a post last night on Daily Kos.

He explained his segment by citing former Nixon aide (and frequent Countdown guest) John Dean's argument that the FISA compromise "clearly did not preclude future criminal prosecution of the telecoms - it only stopped civil suits." (He added, "I think John Dean is worth 25 Glenn Greenwalds (maybe 26 Keith Olbermanns)."

More Olbermann:

Thus, as I phrased it on the air tonight, obviously Obama kicked the left in the teeth by supporting the bill. But anybody who got as hot about this as I did would prefer to see a President Obama prosecuting the telecoms criminally, instead of seeing a Senator Obama engender more "soft on terror" crap by casting a token vote in favor of civil litigation that isn't going to pass since so many other Democrats caved anyway.

When Markos was on (Monday? Again, blurs) he made the simple but essential point that if this is Obama's rationale for this, maybe he should explain it. I think it can be argued that if he's caught the same hole in the bill that Dean has, his best course is actually to shut up and take the criticism and hope the Republicans don't see the loophole.

I don't know much about Mr. Greenwald and I didn't read his full piece, but I do know that the snippet he's taken out of the transcript of my conversation with Jon Alter last night makes it sound like I was saying defying the left was a good thing. I was actually contrasting it to not cowering to the Republicans, simply as a different thing.

I do think Mr. Greenwald's suggestion of some kind of betrayal on my part is simplistic and childish. I'll take the Dean interpretation of this. If it isn't the Senator's game plan, he'll catch hell from me about it later.

Quick Poll

Who's right?

Glenn Greenwald

Keith Olbermann

Comments

[nothingcool]

Go Glenn!

[Jennysaypa]

5,007 Obama supporters can't be wrong on FISA Update--thats 3,000 more than yesterday.

See the group here:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/SenatorObama-PleaseVoteAgainstFISA\

Also 1215 signatures on the petition. Sign here:

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?bo90210

[SlappHappy]

Liberals who only watch Keith Obamaman and only read HuffPo because they are scared to encounter anything that might threaten their world-view scare me just as much as conservatives who only watch Fox Noise and only listen to Rush Limbaugh for the same reason. One is no better than the other.

[Redrover666]

Yep.

[SlappHappy]

Olbermann has little credibility since he turned his show into an hour-long advert for Obama.

[uhappytoo]

The problem KO has is that he was never willing--and still hasn't shown a willingness--to give any quarter to any other Democrat who may well have the same reasons to vote for this that KO now thinks justifies Obama's vote. That's the hypocrisy. But then KO is really nothing more than another narcissistic talking head who blathers just as much sheer speculation as the others. And I include all the cable channels. Why do we need anyone to hype rumor and speculation? I don't see how anyone gains from any of that--except the talking heads who've convinced others to tune in.

[boatswain]

The Clintons are JUST as toxic as the neo-cons. Without a doubt....they will destroy anyone for power.

[thecanadian]

You are 100% correct. The Clintons are more than toxic. They are dangerous! Their whole "poor me" "poor us" is a disgrace to the whole Democratic Party! Why are they not shutting BillbyBaby up?

[SlappHappy]

The subject here is the flip-flopping and ensuing rationalizations of Obama and his shill Olbermann, not the Clintons. The new trick of the Obamatons is to blame the Clintons for all of Barry's mistakes, I see. That motif is recurring here with great frequency. You're only kidding yourselves, Obamatons. Now pucker up and kiss Bill Clinton's rear.

[reunionpi]

Keith Olbermann: the overdue New York State Tax Warrant, Chinese American Trading Company the buyers of his real estate, the corporation

Keith Olbermann: the address from 2001 of his, the parents of Katy Tur and the civil actions


www.webofdeception.com

[BetterDays]

I have read your post three times and still can't discern what you are saying.

[SlappHappy]

Some tax liens against Olbermann are on the site.

[swanie]

If Obama does NOT filibuster or otherwise do whatever he can to ensure the FISA bill DOES NOT PASS the Cenate, he will lose my vote, and the vote of many, many other supporters who will see that as the act of a cRASS POLITICIAN and not a principled candidate for President.

[rshrink]

Good point ebanks84. I don't think people understand Senator Obama. Another way of putting it is that people underestimate him. He is working for unity. That is his highest value. Achieving that is quite difficult and people who haven't ever tried to do that, simply don't get it. Soldiers say, if you have never been in combat, you don't know really what it is like. Similarly, Senator Obama is in another kind of combat which is far more complex than people can appreciate. Like a rafter on the rapids, you have to simultaneously know the make up of the river and also deal with each rock and turbulent waters that you are confronted with.

[djonan]

thanks for helping to give us mccain then.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

If we get McCain, save your thanks for Pelosi, Obama, et al.

[rshrink]

The neocons, with McCain as their front man, could be appropriately compared to the Mafia, just a much more ambitous operation. Another appropriate analogy would be seeing the neocons as the villains in a James Bond movie. They have overzealous down. They want to take over the world. They want to have all of the wealth funnelled into their bank accounts. They are completely selfish and have no problem with that. There is no reason to not view them as sociopaths. They don't care who has to die so that their objectives can be established. It doesn't bother them how much people suffer for their benefit. Why people are not insisting that the neocons be brought before the courts and prosecuted is beyond comprehension. It seems people just don't want to believe our country could have so easily been stolen away from us. I think even the neocons are amazed at how easy it was and because of that, they continued to be emboldened to do more, like bank robbers not knowing when to stop stuffing their bags with money and make their getaway. It is time to arrest these criminals. So helping to defeat Obama will pave the way for more of the runaway corruption we have had with Bush. Obama wil have a complex task to move towards change and progress. It won't always look perfect on the surface. Read John Dean's book and you will understand.

[Probus]

I would rather have Obama vote for this bill and become president than have him vote against it and lose. If he needs to come to the center to win the presidency then that is what he should do. This is a bad bill and should not pass as it guts the 4th amendment but right now I am more concerned with Obama winning the presidency and preventing McCain from being elected to Bush's 3rd term.

[ebanks84]

Now I know how it must have felt when people in the olden times had conflicts that led to deaths instead of votes. Yipes. Glad I wasn't there is all I can say cause being here now is just as bad when you have to deal with such blatant misconceptions, bias, lies, inuendos, and the such. Barack Obama has a job on his hands if he expects all of the people to come together as one. Whew! That'll be the day!

[rshrink]

Good point ebanks84. I don't think people understand Senator Obama. Another way of putting it is that people underestimate him. He is working for unity. That is his highest value. Achieving that is quite difficult and people who haven't ever tried to do that, simply don't get it. Soldiers say, if you have never been in combat, you don't know really what it is like. Similarly, Senator Obama is in another kind of combat which is far more complex than people can appreciate. Like a rafter on the rapids, you have to simultaneously know the make up of the river and also deal with each rock and the thrust of the turbulent waters that you are confronted with.

[rshrink]

Good point ebanks84. I don't think people understand Senator Obama. Another way of putting it is that people underestimate him. He is working for unity. That is his highest value. Achieving that is quite difficult and people who haven't ever tried to do that, simply don't get it. Soldiers say, if you have never been in combat, you don't know really what it is like. Similarly, Senator Obama is in another kind of combat which is far more complex than people can appreciate. Like a rafter on the rapids, you have to simultaneously know the make up of the river and also deal with each rock and turbulent waters that you are confronted with.

[eugenegerard]

This is about covering the butts of Democrats amd Repuglicans that crapped on the Constitution together. Pelosi, Reid and Clinton are just some of the leaders that have committed crimes against the Fourth Amendment. ^The Tel-Coms are the tip of the iceberg. Shame on all of them. Turn every one of the elitists corporatists out of office.

[The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker]

Speaking of FISA, protesting against government control, the Constitution, and THE TOTALLY LAME MAINSTREAM MEDIA, take a gander at the latest Executive Order coming out of the White House:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/06/20080626-4.html

And you thought we were singing the Barney Song with North Korea. GEORGE BUSH JUST DECLARED A NATIONAL EMERGENCY.

How does this affect you? This means we're effectively under martial law and our right to peaceful assembly has been taken away from us. This is HUGE, a point that should be made clear to anyone out there planning any patriotic activities around the 4th of July, including the Ron Paul Campaign for Liberty, which has a march on Washington planned for the 12th.

This is huge. HUGE. As of June 26 all active patriots were transformed into "domestic terrorists." And not a peep from the MSM.

You wouldn't catch me within 100 miles of any anti-government protests right now.

[enlighteninglad]

This is not an issue about lawsuits and compensation for "victims". This is a constitutional issue and if McCain gets in, it WILL continue. That's the ballgame folks. Hold Obama to a losing principled stance, as idealistic as it is, and give the republicans a better chance of keeping the White House; you know, the place that doesn't have to pay attention to Congress no matter what law is passed. Haven't we had enough of that? It's a question if Obama gets in but its a sure thing if McCain does. I'm putting my money on the possibility that Obama, once in office, will do the right thing and put an end to unwarranted surveillance.

[TheInsomniac]

HEAR, HEAR!

It's about time we got some common sense operating on the left.

[Titonwan]

You know, if you go to Daily Kos now and talk bad about Obama, they'll not let you comment anymore. Ironic isn't it? That's what REDSTATE did to Ron Paul commentors. F#ck the 1st amendment I guess! When you censor, the gulags aren't far behind. On a side note: thumbs up to Russ Feingold and Chris Dodd- true patriots.

[Witchitalineman]

I don't believe this.

[SlappHappy]

Oh yeah. Kos is Obamafascist.

[Rjmartinelli]

Daily KOS is not a government run agency. As such, since it is privately controlled, they can censor any comments they wish.

Not agreeing with the action, but please be realistic here. The 1st Amendment to the US Constitution does not protect your comments on blogs and message boards.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

[Titonwan]

"No Bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed" is the reason that Glenn is the man and Keith is a baboon. That statement is in the Constitution (Article I Section 9) and means that you can NOT make a law excusing past crimes, hence "ex post facto". What part of that don't you Obama apologists understand?? You know who quoted that, in a statement, dressing down traitor Pelosi? None other than Ron Paul. Pretty shameful to have all of the Democrats (short of 15 patriots) not see the wisdom. You've had a handful of hero's supporting your Constitutional rights and now it's just a beauty contest on who has the prettiest swimsuit. That should be food for thought after this bill gets rammed through. Your gonna need it later this fall when the second Great Depression (oh, it's coming!) arrives, and your deciding which cat to eat that day :) Stop this insane bill and prosecute Bush. Or not...

[Galt907]

Try going back to your studies. "No ex post facto laws" refers to making something a crime that was not a crime at the time the act was carried out. A law prohibiting any action by making it a crime can only refer to such action committed after the enactment of the law.

[americanalien]

Ladies and Gentlemen, after an exciting match the scores have been tallied. They are as follows:

KEITH OLBERMANN: 3 (also voted MVP)

GLENN GREENWALD: 2 (a spectacular effort by Mr. Greenwald but Keith prove just too strong)

RIGHT WING LUNATIC FRINGERS: 0 (a total disaster; prematurely discharged from game for their insanity)

update: a celebratory parade is to be held for Mr. Olbermann in the Big Apple. He's already lauded by many as a National Hero.

[Grulg]

You only caught the first 7 innings. Greenwald doubled in Arianna in the 8th and was later walked in by Kucinich-so the final score:

Greenwald 4 Obamamann 3. Nothing like being so in the tank for someone eh??

[Probus]

It is my hope that Obama will vote against the FISA bill though that seems unlikely. Greenwald in his own post personally attacked Olbermann which Olbermann in his response didn't do. Olbermann chose the higher ground. I agree with Olbermann that Obama should do everything he can to win this election. If that means voting for FISA then he should do that as well. If Obama needs to move to the center to win this election then he should do whatever it takes to appeal to independents.

[billysviez]

bULSHIT. wE NEED SOMEONE WHO STANDS UP FOR WHAT IS rIGHT INSTEAD OF WHAT IS CONVENIENT.. IF YOU START GIVING IN BEFORE YOU GET ELECTED THEN, YOU WILL DO THE SAME AFTERAFTERWARDS. pELOSI, rEID, hOYER AND ALL THE COWARDS IN MY PARTY MAKE ME SICK.