CNN:
According to a new CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey, 69 percent of adult Americans who responded to a poll June 26-29 said the signers of the Declaration of Independence would be disappointed by the way the nation has turned out overall.
Twenty-nine percent responded "pleased," the only other choice given to the 1,026 respondents of the telephone poll.
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Of course our forefathers would have been disappointed. This country has slipped dangerously close - if not overboard -into facist waters, thanks to corporations that speak louder than our citizens. But we cannot blame them entirely. Somewhere along the way we began to believe that democracy "simply happens." Well it doesn't. You have to work at it and you have to be involved. This is more true today than its ever been in out history.
Bill Moyer said it best when he stated ,
"What's right and good doesn't come naturally. You have to stand up and fight for it -- as if the cause depends on you, because it does."
Moyers is great , and grossly ignored as being a beacon of what we once were.
This is all (from my observations) a continuing product of the 'divisionists' theories of the neocon hero , Reagan. Their side called him the 'great communicator' -- I see him as the 'great divider'. He (and surrogates; BO, Limpbag and Hannity) did more to divide us 'against each other' than anyone since Jefferson Davis; with similar results so far. The surprisingly simplistic brainwashing tactic of; 1.*identify your enemy -- say the target word (liberal, enviromentalists etc.) in a negative tone of voice accompanied with a scowl on the face of the brainwasher ---- 2*blame any and all of the world's problems on the target -- no matter the truth or hypocrasy ---- 3*repetition -- say it often and loudly ---- 4*claim to be 'the answer' for all -- for the select few in reality ---- 5*do as you wish -- commit any crime while hiding behind the flag of self-rightousness.
Heck-of-a-job alrighty !!
"Disappointed" ; as the word of choice to describe what has happened here is being way too generous.
I once heard a Brit pointing out that "America was Englands' grandest failed experiment".
.
Folks like Lillian have pointed-out our founding fathers dissed minorities and women and non-property owners. Except Adams who refused to ever have slaves. And I suppose Washington was known for his humanly treatment of his, which in his will he even freed at his death........................However, we have to honest. These guys were hypocrites just like today's liberals. Do as I Say, Not as I do. ...The only difference is they were much braver and far more intelligent then today's liberals.
There you go again -------- speaking Rush-ian -------- wise-up.
Thomas Jefferson wrote "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal". 232 years and two days later, some of us are reminded he forgot to include women & non-whites into his thinking.
Still, heterosexual white men are the only ones truely "allowed" not to define themselves from their sexual orientation, hue or gender. They are allowed to define themselves from their personalities, positions, life-experiences. The rest of us are put into boxes. Whatever life-experience or position or personality we have, are put into those boxes as well. You can have a look on whatever tread you like, even here, on Huffpost, where most posters are supposedly liberal. And you'd find bigotry, misogony or gay bashing in each and every one. I'm sure.
I won't "victimize" myself. I am hetero, white and a woman. But this isn't how I define myself. I define myself from how I'm thinking. Or feeling. Or experiecing. From my job, my education, my everyday life. And I think we should all be allowed to. Then it will become self-evident that though we're all created different, we're all of equal value. And then Thomas Jefferson could really, truely, thorughly, be proud of us all.
I forgot to add: I think, and I hope, we're getting there. One day, we will. But I would wish us to get there sooner.
It's better today than it was yesterday.... hopefully, it will be better tomorrow than it is today.
But we must stay VIGILANT & work to make that happen because it doesn't happen all by itself.
Racism, bias, bigotry.... hatred is on the RISE in this country right now..... times are bad & they will be getting WORSE & there are some amongst us that will need someone to BLAME... the blacks, the Jews, the gays, the liberals....
We must CONFRONT this EVERY time we see it or it will fester & matasticize until it's too late.
http://www.splcenter.org/
A) Is that not a BOX you put hetero-white males?
B) If all the causes for discrimination, bigotry and hatred were to magically disappear
overnight....humans would create a whole new set by noon the next day.
C) There is no currency in the problems we have...the riches lie in the bonds we build and
the hearts we win along the way. No one's life is free of trouble if that is where he/she focuses.
A) You're unwilling to accept my point Yes. Hetero is a box, white is a box, male is a box. But the people fitting into all those three boxes are NEVER being identified purely from one of those mentioned factors. They are considered the norm, and they are identified by other sides of their identity. Consider hearing someone described as "the male lawyer". Sounds strange. Then "the female lawyer". Yeah. You hear that all the time.
How many persons have you heard describe Mc Cain as "the male candidate" or "the white candidate"? Then compare. How many times have you heard Clinton described as "the female candidate" or of Obama as "the black candidate"? The latter two is still considered abnormal. And historically, it's something new that a female or an African-American candidate can be a serious contender. That shows change is coming. But gender and color are still considered issues. Mc Cain is allowed to be described from his views (and age...) alone. HRC and BO are reduced to being less than they are, less gathering, less stateman-like, because they have to be whatever they are within their boxes. And they aren't unique. This still is a tendency. And anyone unwilling to see that, can't be looking very well.
It's funny to read so many comments about the issue of slavery during our revolution ... as if "that time" had somehow passed. It was only a couple of months ago when it was reported that now - today - there are MORE slaves on the planet than there were in 1776. And while they may represent a much, much smaller percent of the total population, it is no less a disgrace that it happens ... moreover with our complicity.
Kuwait, for example, the lovable serfdom that Bush the Elder "liberated" from Hussein, has been on our own State Department's slavery watch for the last 15 years. And the alleged "prostitutes" that service Americans in Iraq, imported from Kuwait, are not prostitutes at all, but sex slaves. That "industry" is supported by our tax dollars - and will continue to be - so long as we continue to occupy Iraq.
http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Kuwait-2.htm
YOUR TAX DOLLARS BUYS SLAVES - TODAY !!
So false outrage about the morality of the founding fathers is just so much meaningless vapor, totally lacking in context. In the times in which they lived, they had an excuse for the things they believed and the things they did.
What excuse do we have?
8
That's thought-provoking. And that's scary, too. Keep on posting, Nyland 8!
On the mark as usual 8, and it speaks directly to the central point grainosand was making so eloquently (from last night). It's the process thats important here, not the phoney moral outrage that is used to divert ones attention from cleanly exercising that very process. And that is true and firm for any situation a society must deal with. We know how to access the power to permanently change our actions but we choose to avoid the responsibility by righteously pointing our fingers outwards at the "other", "look over there" see how jaded their actions are. We make imaginary divisions in the content of a problem, rather then seeing them as a continuum. In this way we can comfortably avoid looking inward as individuals. Changing the paradigm of the process. The thought process of cluttered minds, much noisey thought lacking the passion of pure intent.
And so it goes, generation to generation.
I'm sorry, I forgot to add that the FF gave us the process from where they were in the continumm. It is and always has been up to "us" to refine and perfect as we move upward and forward. There is no "other" to point to, we are the "other".
The large partisan and economic divisions are a result of changes in society since people have moved from agrarian to financial-based societies. When the Founding Fathers established liberalism they didn't foresee a rift between what would become classical liberalism and social liberalism.
In the colonies anyone could find a tree and chop it. Trees were plentiful and provided heat and energy for the home. Land could be planted and so forth. One just needed to get out of bed in the morning and get started. Families pulled together on sicknesses. There were no huge doctor bills and no one was laid off when no jobs were available. The simple business of government was to provide order so that people could choose a church to establish moral peoples.
With metropolitan growth liberals moved apart. Classical liberals looked to keep government small. Social liberals wanted more government. Today, some liberals believe that people are born with no right to "chop trees". Other liberals might expect trees chopped and delivered.
What we need in America is a style of liberalism that is united and simple. The spirit of the Founding Fathers should be captured in an updated liberalism. The role of a government should include the natural right to be productive, to sustain "the trees" as resources, and to assist private companies in overcoming barriers to efficient production and distribution. Finally, health care and education should be maximized and delivered equally and efficiently.
How did we get to this point in time, where people judge the other patriotism? I wish my disabled veteran's organization, could get the support of more then 3% on all these patriots. I wish all the pin and flag wearers wouldn't let our troops down, by failing our duties as citizens, to at least question the decision to go to irag. I wish citizens weren't stupid enough, to let a swaggering cheerleader from Texas lie us into invading a country for its oil in the process, killing over 4100 of our troops. I wish all these patriots, who support the invasion in Irag, would enlist and give the troops on their 2 nd 3rd and 4 th extended tours of duty some relief. Until you patriots do that, please shutup!
Good point. It would seem that shared sacrifice is a thing of the past, at least for neocons.
The right believes that "shared sacrifice" is for the hoi polloi---while they sit back and laugh at the struggles of ordinary Americans.
People are shunning gas guzzlers now. Baby steps.
Yes ... but not out of any elevated, lofty epiphany. They're doing it out of necessity.
8
Part 1
The GREATEST ENEMY of the USA is NOT Osama Bin Laden... Nor is it the so called World Wide Terrorists... They did what they did and will do as they do... They are a very Minor Enemy...
A sleeping, fearful, Electorate is by FAR a Greater Enemy... With barely disturbing our slumber, our Constitution and "RIGHTS" are under attack from within... WE the People are sleeping, and in so doing, failing to Govern our Office Holders... WE continue to Elect into Offices, the TWO Branches of the Dominant Political Party, who have us under attack... Democrats and Republicans...
Each Branch blames the other for toppling the Tree... Both have US under attack... Both raid our coffers and spend our money... Both take Money from Corporations, and the Wealthy, and pass Laws to make those bribes Legal... Those Bribes influencing Office Holders are Legally Classified as Contributions...
Ultimately, WE the People, in failing to Govern our Office Holders, have allowed OUR Nation to Invade another Nation and Continue to Occupy that Nation... WE the People have allowed our Children (Military) to be placed in Harms way, in a kill, or be killed, situation... WE have allowed a Neo Con based Political Administration to do this I/O, and with the assistance of a Corporate Controlled MSM, to spin this Invasion/Occupation as a War... WE the People have allowed Trillions of our Dollars to be mis-spent on this so called War...
Part 3
Were our Founding Fathers Perfect? YES and NO, as perfection must all ways, always be an ongoing process, not an end state... Our Political Founders turned over to us Most Powerful Documents... We the People are the Government... WE elect Office Holders... Our sacred duty is to educate US as governors and awaken to our sacred duty as the Government... Whether our Founding Fathers were slave owners, wealthy, or other, they set us up as Government...
WE the People have been asleep... Most still are asleep... Wake up, WE the People of Power... WE are the Government, not Republicans, or Democrats... Both Branches have learned to Dominate and Control us with Fear... WE sleep in, with and of our Power... G W Bush did not harm us and neither Mc Cain, nor Obama will save US from US... The failure to Govern the USA is OURS... WE are where WE allowed our Fear and ignorance to take US... Likely our Forfathers are shouting from their graves, WAKE UP... The Greatest threat to the USA at this time is from within a corrupted Political Party and System... WAKE UP!
POGO: WE the People have met the ENEMY and IT is US... WE sleep, WE blame, WE re-act to and with Fear... WE terrorize us into Capitulation to the Dominant Political Party with our Fear Beliefs...
Part 2
Perhaps worse, WE have become our own Terrorists... Both Branches of the Dominant Political Party, especially the Republican Branch, have caught on to what Organize Religion has known for Centuries... Use fear to Control the (Flock) Electors... Just as a sheep dog's bark and imagined threat can help to Control a Flock of Sheep...
Like frightened children, WE the People ( WE the Government) chose to Believe the MSM and Administrations, Lies and Spin... Nuclear weapons were going to be deployed against us... Drop and cover, Children, hide... OMG, we need to get them, before they get us... WE the People, blindly, believing, fearfully co-operated with the Administration, to put our Military into harms way...
WE allowed a President to become an un-restricted Decider... WE allowed Constitutional RIGHTS to be undermined, ignored, violated, all, with Fears, as Belief... OUR Nation, WE the People who have the most, MOST Powerful Weapons in the World, allowed our tyrant to go topple their Tyrant... WOW, WE were asleep on that one...
Now, having violated the Constitution, our Office Holders ( both Branches) want to give immunity to the Administration/ Telecom's, who violated our sacred Constitutional Rights... Our Candidates for President, from the Dominant Political Party, failed to even show up to vote... Clearly, Office Holders believe they can get away with giving immunity... Likely, some Office Holders seeking to grant immunity were knowledgeable of, and may have co-operated, in the violating...
The Founders believed in a meritocracy, which translates into people should have to earn what they have, not have it bequeath to them. When people are born with money they don't work as hard to create more, so as a result economies stagnate. The Founders did not want a class of rich people who never worked a day in their lives to run the country. If a person had worked his way up to become the leader of an industry and was rich because of it that was fine, however just because your last name was Jefferson and your dad was president didn't automatically entitle one to the presidency as is with the current occupant. So the Founders would extremely disappointed today especially with the Government repealing the Estate Tax
By the same token, they would be outraged at our obsession with welfare and food stamps and unemployment checks.
In their day the rule was "He who does not work, does not eat." Now it's so bad that we import millions of illegal immigrants to do the work, while Americans sit on their lazy butts and collect government checks. And of course we can't expect them to work a job like a common day laborer, because they're Americans, after all.
Though I agree with you there are a percentage of people who just sit and collect a check, which IMO must and should be not be eligible for anything moving forward. The illegal immigrants do not do work Americans won't do , they do work Americans won't do for less than a living wage. That is a big difference. Because the Government allows companies to pay people below the poverty line doesn't mean Americans are not more than willing to do the job. It's called Greed.
I think you forgot that the biggest "welfare" goes to wealthy people who can afford lawyers to file loopholes to have save them more than a few bucks, while the rest of us working slobs pay our own share plus theirs. And how about all those people with phony businesses which are used to take tax deductions for things like taking their wives (or others) out for a tax deductible lunch. It's too bad that you seem to have placed your hate against the ones who are the poorest.
The only thing about your statement that I do agree with is the unemployment checks issue. I have known plenty of middle class and upper class people who take jobs that are only 6 month a year jobs, and then they collect unemployment for the other 6 months -- and they have done this on a regular basis. These are the real and disgusting cheats.
Our founding Fathers slaughtered Indians and owned African Americans as slaves. Women were kept in the kitchen and in the bedroom to make babies.
Of course, they would be disappointed.
there we go, some real talk has entered the room
Don't forget tobacco.
Some of them grew tobacco.
A majority of Americans couldn't name the founding fathers. Please don't blame the educational system. Kids are in school for twelve years. I know that they are taught American history, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. It's just a laziness for knowledge that is the cause.
Second, these same Americans aren't talking about their disappointment in terms of threats to the Constitution, Guantanamo etc. they are talking about gays getting married, realty TV, and immigration. You know that and so do I.
Anybody else kick your azz at the golf course lately?
Hmm, I always wonder when I see something like this if the poster has actually READ anything that other people (almost 2.000 comments) have discussed?
After we introduce the Fathers to the movies, then they can enjoy films like SAW and Hostel, so they will be pleased, according to your line of thinking.
They'd be most disappointed, me thinks, with the ignorance of Joe Public and the news media that feed that ignorance. Thanks CNN!
The flag pin is about the individual wearing it and not about the pin. There are a lot of persons who wear one who are less than patriotic with some very much so and some who I would suggest are criminals.
Wearing a flag pin doesn't make the wearer a patriot. Bush wears one most all the time. Living proof there is no association between wearing one and being a patriot. In fact, in the case of Bush, it reinforces the opinion of some people who think he's a liar who has committed serious crimes against this nation. And there is significant data to support that opinion. So wearing a pin conveys absolutely nothing about the individual wearing it.
Oh yeah? Well I'm very disappointed that many of our founding fathers were slave owners.
So there.
good answer
WOW, you're quite the originalist. It seems that subject has only been brought up a 100 times already. I'm disappointed that tribes in Africa sold people to begin with to the Dutch. Where is the outrage there?
now, now...that's quite enough children; no one should go around owning, selling, giving or even lending people away. Now, let us all learn from our past mistakes and treat all people ... yes even Mr. Obama with respect and dignity.
and this is our lesson for the day.
Deanin
What did the founding fathers have to do with "Tribes" in Africa selling people to "Tribes" from Europe. Let me make an analogy: Would you not be disappointed in the fact that your daughter was using Meth and only be disappointed in the Meth Dealer who sold it to her.
No one forced your daughter to buy the Meth. I'm sure you meant to say that you too were also disappointed in hindsight that the Founding Fathers owned slaves. Despite their flaws, the founding fathers were extraordinary men
Did they hold them in bondage for nearly 300 years? My ancestors sold my other ancestors cheap. What does that have to do with the beastly treatment of my ancestors for nearly 300 years. You know the mating of them like cattle, the rape of the little children, the murder of them for 300 years. They are not my founding fathers and i don't give a.... what they would think.
I hear u nova, my thing- which i laid out below- is this
The question didn't ask about the DOI- i doubt many of the individuals asked knew many specifics about the d*mn thing- the question was about the men who wrote it.
That has a kind of canonizing effect, it reinforces a certain mythology about these men and the time in which they lived. A time which involved an enormous amount of mistreatment and, not only slavery but indentured servitude of white immigrants.
I know these were men of their times and they came together to do something fantastic, but in 2008 we need to abandon the myth of these men and to a larger degree the myth of america's greatness. We need to start telling the truth about our history and this question, however minor, brought up a lot of my anger with regards to how this country's history continues to be manipulated.
It's not a myth.
Everyone with a brain knows that these men were---just like everyone else in history---flawed and human.
But they did something never done before, and it has benefitted us all.
And are you just as outraged that slave ownership is still happening on the East coast of Africa as well as other areas of Africa, or is it just because the founding fathers were white? Just wondering.
"East coast of Africa"
Not to get in the middle of your argument, but Africa is not a recognized part of the US - at least not yet.
The flagpin is like a cross. It means nothing on a public figure.
Don't be lost in the maelstrom.
Read up on Marshall McLuhan.
It's funny how it means nothing to you now when 0bama wears one but you were bashing 0bama for not wearing one a couple months ago.
Kwark
Did I?
Prove it.
For the record I wear a silver Chinese symbol for "good health" and my medical alert medallion on a silver necklace. I guess that makes me a Buddhist.
Everything printed since the Gutenberg press was invented is bs for the rich man.
Read up on Marshall McLuhan.
In the unlikely event you missed his message when you were a sophomore.
What the heck does a flag pin have to do with 'patriotism'?
Maybe Presidential canadidates should wear 'Canadian' flag pins, like American tourists do, to make people think they're Canadian & thus get better treatment.
Silly you don't understand how it works. See you buy a flag pin made in China so you can wear it when you run for the President of the United States of America to keep wars going for 100 years and start new wars and borrow that money back from China to fund those wars in thanks for making that lovely flag pin that made you the true patriotic presidential candidate in the first place.
Signed McBush
Excellent.
**
Now, you have it.
the founding fathers would probably be most disappointed that O bama has gotten this far
I doubt that very much. It is more likely that they are appaled that their republic has been turned into a corporatist national security state with a private central back run by HItler's money cronies.
I think the absolute "corruption" of their male white power structure would perhaps concern them more than corruption in Washington....
excuse me if I don't bow to the "Founding Fathers." If we want to talk about the wonderfully revolutionary documents they created I'm all for it but let's not equate what they created with the men themselves. Let's leave the national MYTHS out of this dicsussion.
It's stupid comments like yours that makes me lose faith in this countries citizenry.
so you disagree that they would wonder and fear the advancement of the people they knew as slaves and half human?
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First Posted: 07- 5-08 10:41 AM | Updated: 07-13-08 05:12 AM