Obama Repeats Call For Merit Pay In Front Of Powerful Teachers Union

The Hill:

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama on Saturday thanked the National Education Association for its endorsement but also made it clear that he continues to support merit pay for teachers.

His position is a controversial one with the 3.2 million member group and it has earned him criticism when he addressed the NEA in 2007.

Read the whole story: The Hill

Comments

[sharonh]

No, no, no, wrong in every way. Hey O, you are heading in the wrong direction again.

[jimmy2001]

let me suggest a compromise - a partial raise on the base and the rest as merit pay, but the merit should be decided by the a more neutral group made up of PTA, School Board and community leaders.

[booksnmore4you]

That's a very fine idea.

[JohnTalbutt]

Might work provided the school board was elected and not appointed as it is in NYC. Merit pay is generally union busting because it is awarded to the teachers who will not complain about oversize classes, lack of texts and other equipment, are honestly administer tests. It is awarded to the suck ups who won't speak out for the children are themselves.

Of course, McCain would be a continuation of undercuting of education at all levels perpertrated by Bush so I am all for Obama.

[Heaphy]

If what JohnTalbutt claims about merit pay is true now, then that is not the only way that merit pay can be administered. The merit pay criteria must be based solely on student improvement attributable to teacher performance. Job performance is the basis of pay increases for most taxpayers. Taxpayers want to reward outstanding teachers, and encourage lackluster teachers to find a different line of work. No way should this be perceived as "union busting" by teachers, or by parents and taxpayers who believe that students should always come first in our public schools. Obama '08 - Yes We Can!
- Jim Heaphy

[4wehttam]

That is already what Obama is proposing. He wants more initial pay for teachers, but also wants merit pay for progressive teachers who are consistently improving their teaching.

[Neaguy]

and this is change? Promising a merit pay idea that has already been
a proven failure?

We will block this cockamamie scheme. We have no choice.

Raise the base. That's the only solution to pay teachers fairly and bring better
talent in to the profession.

[gypsy508]

So true. Teachers are underpaid to begin with. How can you talk about paying them less? Obama needs to go after the corporate tycoons he is way too friendly with. Attacking teachers is lame.

[apoyo]

Why is it OK for a superintended to make 300K plus with bonuses, a car and help buying a home, but teachers who usually make less than 50K have to dig into their own pockets to pay for school supplies? Why is it OK that a national office supply company runs an ad about helping teachers pay for school supplies? Why is it OK that when a school district improves the super get a bonus and the teacher's pay gets frozen?

Why is it news that teachers deserve merit pay?

[pupbayer]

Teachers deserve more money. Period. The question is should it be tied to performance? If so, then how will that be measured and by whom? Obama says it should be tied to performance but that's as far as he's thought evidently.

[sharonh]

It's not okay for any of these things but merit pay is not the answer. The money needs to be redirected from the corporations that drain school resources and given to teachers. There is terrible waste in schools in ways that benefit nobody but the contractor (think school food). When students are awarded equal funding the school inequities will begin to minimize. The feds need to get out of the school business and give it back to the states, who are in a much better position, as well as being more motivated, to manage it.

[kellygrrrl]

are we the only nation in the world who treat teachers like 3rd class citizens?

[ema]

I don't know, but if you read some of the post here, it seems like some people want to blame everything on the teachers. I'm sure there are bad ones, but it is an incredibly difficult job with little thanks.

[Liberal2]

"...are we the only nation in the world who treat teachers like 3rd class citizens?.­.." We probably aren't, but I know all failed and failing nations treat their teachers that way.

"Merit pay for teachers"? A quaint idea. But I have a better one: Merit pay for officeholders. Screw up the economy and all you get is minimum wage. Enable a war that is based on lies...you get minimum wage. Pass bad lews....mi­nimum wage. Don't fulfill campaign promises..­.(everyone­, all together) MINIMUM WAGE!

Let's ask O'buma (sic!)

[sharonh]

Good idea if they actually ran for their office money, but it's what we don't know or can't touch that actually lines their pockets. Would Cheney care if he didn't get his VP salary? Hell no, he'll be back on the board at Haliburton as soon as he is out of office.

[BEHM777]

I spent a year in a large inner city public school system. It was an eye opener for me. I unequivocally support the idea that that good teachers MUST be recognized. Merit pay is only one of the ways in which they should be recognized. It literally is a jungle in there at times.

Those that teach and are great at it despite all that is against them deserve the best. Perhaps merit pay will motivate some of the slugs that are merely picking up a paycheck to do a little bit more. Believe me, in many cases a little more effort from teachers can cause a breakthrough. If you are a teacher and you are giving it your all, I don't think th idea of merit pay should scare you one bit.

BEHusseinM777

[pupbayer]

It's not that it scares teachers. It is a disappointment because there is no guarantee that the merit pay will actually go to those who deserve it and earn it.

[RTIII]

I know a few grade-school teachers in various countries in Europe and I know a lot of professors in Europe and scattered throughout the world. I haven't discussed this with all of them, but questions of education - esp. "lower" education comes up pretty often. Overall, I'd say these other countries pay teachers on par with other forms of professions within government.

In Germany, for instance, I know a woman who teaches 1st and 2nd graders. Her pay is probably comparable with a nurse or a lower-level traffic engineer; it's a profession and she's paid as a professional. She gets a lot of time off, and has made enough that she took a year off, unpaid, to tour the U.S. and write a book about the Summer of Love. She's not rich, but she's definitely not paid as a 3rd class citizen.

In England, grade school teachers are not paid quite as well, I gather, but are still way ahead of what we pay them in the U.S.

Beyond just pay, though, I'm not sure how comparable these situations are because most of Europe, esp. Germany, has a higher standard of living than we do here. Universal heath care and great public transportation help a salary go a lot further, for example. Children don't go hungry and lack health care as they do here. Children are, on the whole, more prepared for school. They also don't have, in general, the violence problems we have - no guns.

[booksnmore4you]

Lack of merit pay has resulted in a whole system based upon seniority. It is miserable because the majority of those teachers really have no dammed business even being in the classroom. Of course, administrators know this. So what have they done? They've created a a system that does not trust teachers and does not give them power and freedom to really teach. We don't really have teachers anymore but "administers of the curriculum". The wost part is that the really good younger teachers come in, get sick of the system in 2 to 3 years, and leave. Whose left? Start reading at my first sentence again.

[booksnmore4you]

As for why the NEA is resistant to they idea of merit pay increases, its pretty simple if you follow the money. You see, those are the folks that most benefit from a seniority system. They know that a merit system means that a lot of them are going to get flushed out of the system, as many should be.

[AgeofReason]

It's even simpler if you follow the research. Go to Wikipedia even, and follow the links in the bibliography to find out what both the Cato Institute and the Urban Institute learned through their research into merit pay. Lots of teachers belong to the NEA through their local associations. We don't join because it's some kind of protection racket. Most of us join because we believe in the teaching profession.

[kellygrrrl]

aren't they basically just teaching to pass state tests?
at least here in CA it seems that way
It's all about the test scores to try to get a little cash from the state

our high school just lost our one and only college counselor
can you imagine one of the top 5% high schools in the nation
with not one counselor to help kids prepare for SATs or applications
we have to hire a private college prep tutor at $175 / hr

Thank You Governor Terminator

[JohnTalbutt]

That's why Obama is wrong on merit pay. The same people who have been short changing the schools will be the ones awarding the merit pay and they are not going to give it to teachers who fight for better conditions for themselves or the students.

My buddy preps 13 to 15 kids for SATs for $48. per hour. He has a very good record but says that the courses with the best record are given on mainland China.

[AgeofReason]

Merit pay is just as crazy as high-stakes testing. The current system rewards longevity, yes, but that's because most teachers do get better over time. There is something to be said for honing your craft. Bad teachers can be fired under the current systems--but the bar is high to prevent abuse. If you know of a teacher who doesn't belong in the profession (that crazy kindergarten teacher in Florida comes to mind), file a formal complaint and start the ball rolling. But don't assume that every teacher is like that one!

[AgeofReason]

You said that "really good younger teachers come in, get sick of the system in 2 to 3 years, and leave." I say that it takes at least 3 years to become a REALLY GOOD teacher. If someone leaves after only 1 year, they didn't have a heart for teaching. If they leave after only 2 or 3, they didn't have a heart for teaching. TEACHING, really teaching, is a calling. I could do many other things with my professional life, all of them better compensated, but I would sooner cut off my right arm.

There are no other professions where professionals are routinely treated as incompetents. Would we ask fire-fighters to stop putting out fires in the way they know works because lawmakers want to try some experimental system that may or may not work? That's the mindset that gave us high-stakes testing. It used to be a basic tenet of teaching that you DON'T teach to the test. It was drummed into my head during my education. The idea is that you give students the knowledge they need for life, and they will pass the tests. Yet, teaching to the test is the absolute requirement for "Standards-Based Education.­" Who came up with standards-based educaiton? Republicans who wanted to prove that public education was failing so that they could push through vouchers for private schools. At least that seemed to be the plan in my state.

[harriscrl3]

This is what I notice with so call Obama supporters. When he is telling African American men they need to be better fathers and be involved in their children's life thats OK. When he is telling Parents that they need to turn off the television and get their kids to do their homework. Thats Ok. But when he is telling teachers or unions the reality as far as educating our children they dont want to hear it. When he said he is not going to tell us what we want to hear but what we need to hear eveyrone is cheering and now that he is doing it people are offended bothered by it.

This is one of the reasons that Obama to me represents the president of the 21st century. He is not hampered by ideology like some of us because goodness if he were we would be just trading one type of ideological dogma for another.

Thank you Obama for keeping your word and not telling us what we want to hear. Some may not appreciate it but I do. I dont want a politician to lie to me because it makes me feel good. I know we are in deep trouble and I want to know what I need to do the kind of sacrifices I need to make to adddress some of these problems.

Carol

[pupbayer]

On this particular issue, I have no problem with him saying he believes in merit pay for teachers. I want him to tell me HOW he is going to do it. He is so full of rhetoric and little substance. That's what gets me about him. Anyone can say I'm for this or that...tel­l me how you are going to accomplish whatever.

[yvette7112001]

By ending this war...by taxing the upper echeleon..­.by penalizing companies that outsource jobs...by taxing oil companies record profits

[hawkseye]

As with any proposal by any candidate, laws that might support the proposal have to be written and passed. That is a very complicated matter that is not subject to predictions.

[wheaties]

The reality???? That's rich. As for your sacrifice, good teachers do that everyday in a profession where they are underpaid and pissed upon. Funny, I don't see many posts on this board about parental responsibilities, nor do I see many post dealing with teacher turnover. The average new teacher is gone before their fourth year. If any of you or Obama think that merit pay is going to fix that your delusional.

[GeoLee]

According to national statistics there's a 50% dropout rate of teachers by the fifth year. That ought to tell you something about the difficulty of teaching and the pay level that goes along with the effort. In my district there's been such an emphasis on retaining younger teachers that many good older teachers who are mentoring younger ones. gets smaller raises as the base level raises, so you might have a 40 year old masters+level dedicated teacher getting ready to send his own kids to college making $45,000 while the new teacher makes $36,000 just to attract her to the profession with a 50 percent chance she won't be there in 5 years. Merit pay AND higher longevity pay across the board are both needed to keep good teachers, but without decent wages at the starting level, you are not going to attract the best and if you give the younger ones merit pay to keep them rather than because they truly earn it, which I suspect would soon happen, the older teachers won't want to mentor them while not getting rewarded. I also find that the alternative schools where there' more parent involvement tends to draw the best teachers out of the schools they are needed the most in...sort of like the great education Michelle Obama got when she transferred into one in her Chicago district. Got away from the riff raff and got the teachers who did the same thing. It happens in every urban district!

[harriscrl3]

Of course you didnt see it when they were talkin about parental responsiblity but it was on this board the link was posted to a yahoo article abotu Obama's social conservatism and this was in the Primary when he was supposedly a strong left candidate but of course people didnt pay attention to that because they are OK when he says things like that well if this is going to work Parents need to do their part and so do teachers. This is nothing new with Obama he has been saying if we dont have a comprehensive apporach t o this its going to fail thats the difference between Obama and other candidates and Presidents he wants solutions that WORK not solutions that make Union feel better when they themselves are shopping at the same Walmart they are railing against because of their job being shipped overseas. Thats the reality of free trade its all nice and good to say you oppose it well you know what would happen if we didnt have it poor parents couldnt afford shoes and clothes to send their kids to school. There is a lot of ignorance going on as far as these issues and folks need to be educated about them even folks on the left. Because they are incapable of seeing the big picture like Obama does thankfully.

Carol

[hawkseye]

It was my observation as a teacher that ineffective teachers were driven out of the classroom by their students. And there are absolutely no tenure laws in any state that will protect ineffective teachers. There are no incompetent teachers where there are competent administrators.

[pupbayer]

AMEN!!! Now...how many competent administrators are out there...es­pecially in rural and inner city schools?

[coba]

yeah we need merit pay so teachers start performing better. I remember in middle school when my teacher kept watching venus and serena tennis matches during the class and didn't even give us work. I dont even remember what the class was supposed to be about. And this was a school in the suburbs. We need good teachers everywhere

http://sensico.wordpress.com

[kellygrrrl]

I completely agree

I have seen such a difference in teaching depending on the Administration running the District

[booksnmore4you]

It typically costs taxpayers a quarter-million dollars to fire one incompetent tenured teacher. Hence the great reluctance to do so.

[RedEyes]

While we're on the subject...­what's the deal with tenure? As far as i can tell, it's just another obstacle to get rid of bad teachers.

[pupbayer]

Tenure is granted in different states according to different rules. In most states, a teacher has to have achieved a certain level of certification or licensing and taught a certain number of years. Bad teachers are usually bad from day one. For whatever reason, administrators keep them long enough for them to earn tenure. They didn't become bad after they got tenure so don't blame unions for this one. Many times tenure protects good teachers from arbitrary "firing." When you deal with people's children, there are a myriad of problems. A teacher "asks too much" or a teacher "gave my child too low a grade," etc. Some teachers are actually afraid to have very high standards for fear of losing their jobs due to unhappy parents. Good teachers can be a pain to administrators by demanding much from the school and its administrators, too. Tenure protects them.

That being said, there are things considered so "heinous" that even tenured teachers can be let go...sexua­l relations with students, felony charges, etc.

Besides that, many government positions basically have tenure...f­ederal and state employees are very hard to get rid of.

[akryan]

Tenure is a mixed bag. Once a teacher gets it they're pretty much dug in like a tic. Bad teachers don't really get fired, they just end up transferring from school to school. On the other hand the job security that comes from tenure makes is a big draw to the profession. It's a lot easier to teach if you're not worried about losing your job if students get a low grade on standardized tests, or a crazy parent has some sort of blood vendetta against you. Giving admins more hiring and firing power is problematic because they come and go fairly regularly. The truth is that the biggest hurdle to getting rid of bad teachers is finding better ones. Getting certified is a big hassle if your undergrad isn't in education. I know a guy who has a PhD in physics who wants to teach (even though it would mean a big pay cut) but can't afford to work for substitute pay for a year and a half while he gets certified. This is compounded by the fact that certification isn't free. You have to pay for certification courses as much as you'd pay for any college class. Even in-state tuition at public universities is expensive. I think if districts would offer free certification courses that took no longer than 6 months to get more people with advanced degrees would be willing to teach.

[hawkseye]

Repeat: there are no tenure laws anywhere that protect incompetent teachers.

[TroubleNYC]

As a son and nephew of teachers I can tell you this may not go over well with the union and many teachers who are just there for a paycheck.

[ema]

Teacher pay has to be increased across the board. Then more talented, educated people will be attracted to teaching. Teachers are the lowest paid professionals in this country. And they have one of the hardest jobs. You couldn't pay me enough to do what teachers of children do and put up with.

[rzan]

I have met some unbelievably ignorant people who call themselves teachers. The good teachers, who have something to offer their students, deserve to be rewarded for their expertise and commitment to the teaching profession.

[rwe]

While he is at it , he should show true concern and pro choice by supporting vouchers.

[RTIII]

HA HA HA. Vouchers! What a laugh!

Yeah, just rape the public system. Sure.

[Liberal2]

I'd like to drive a BMW, where's my voucher?

Vouchers are another word for taxpayer provided catholic schools and elitist private schools. As soon as catholic schools and elitist private schools accept any and all voucher students, I'll support vouchers. That includes displinary problems, handicapped, mentally challenged. And those schools better show results or they give the voucher money back. All of it.

[pupbayer]

You are absolutly right! AND I want them to have to meet the same standards (curriculum, testing, etc.) as public schools which in most states they do not.

[teron678]

One of the major functions of management is to provide motivation to employee/s­ubordinate­s by providing incentives ....... incentives ... leads to an increase in productivity ...... an increase in productivity leads to a surplus in the economy .....

good managements skills by Obama IMO ... no bias .. being objective ..

[pupbayer]

That's fine if I'm making shoes...te­aching kids? Not so much.

[ohiomark]

The teachers unions won't like that.

Oh well, I guess they're stuck with him. Labor unions would NEVER vote for a Republican.

I can't understand why a union wouldn't want merit pay. Well, yes I do. Unions don't care about the work. They just care about the pay and the benefits. They don't want someone who works harder than someone else to get more pay. That wouldn't be fair.

God forbid someone gets rewarded for hard work.

[ema]

No, the problem is: how do you measure performance? More tests? We've already created a nation of little automaton test-takers.

And of course, the kids who do the best on the tests are the ones in wealthy districts. The teachers in wealthy suburbs already get paid more than teachers in less affluent areas. Way to encourage people to work with more difficult populations!

[Jahmekyah]

So what, because you can't currently think of how it can be done...its a bad idea? Low pay is demotivating but high pay that is unrelated to performance won't necessarily increase performance.

[hawkseye]

Yes, you are correct, ema.
I am a retired teacher and was an NEA leader at the local and state level. It would be all right with me if teachers select the people who are to receive merit pay. If administrators choose, it will become nothing but a suck up deal.

[pupbayer]

Right. Unions represent ALL employees, in NEA's case, teachers. They don't just represent good teachers. It's not just about pay and benefits for their members, it is also about protection.

[brighterside]

Its not the teachers or even the teachers union fault for the lack of good pay for our teachers. I blame the republicans and the politicians who have shun education.

At least with O-bama he wants to shake up the teachers pay system and base it more on merit. We as a country really need to fix our education system. Its broken and there are too many good teachers that aren't getting paid well while those that have been teaching for many years and aren't good teachers have collected a paycheck day to day and not cared about their teachings.