Obama: I Haven't Moved To The Center

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LIZ SIDOTI | July 8, 2008 03:52 PM EST | AP

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Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill, points to supporters during a town hall-style meeting in Powder Springs, Ga., Tuesday, July 8, 2008. (AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

POWDER SPRINGS, Ga. — Asked by a voter about accusations of flip-flopping, Democrat Barack Obama dismissed the notion Tuesday that he has shifted stances on Iraq, guns and the death penalty to break with his party's liberal wing and court a wider swath of voters.

"The people who say this haven't apparently been listening to me," the likely Democratic presidential nominee said in response to a question at a town-hall style event.

Obama blamed criticism from "my friends on the left" and "some of the media" in part on cynicism that ascribes political motives for every move candidates make. "You're not going to agree with me on 100 percent of what I think, but don't assume that if I don't agree with you on something that it must be because I'm doing that politically," he said. "I may just disagree with you."

The Illinois senator was responding to a question from a self-described "reformed Republican" who said he worked for Democrat Bobby Kennedy four decades ago and thanked Obama for restoring "that faith."

"You had an interesting week of being accused of flip-flopping, which is mostly nonsense," the man said. He then asked Obama to restate his Iraq position, and Obama used the opportunity to dispel the idea he had generally changed his stances.

Since wrapping up the Democratic nomination last month, Obama has voiced positions that break with the Democratic Party's left and seem to shade his own past positions on a range of subjects. He's drawn criticism from some liberal Democrats who question his loyalty and from Republicans who accuse him of flip-flopping.

His remarks aside, Obama is clearly competing for the center of the electorate. Originally best known as an anti-Iraq war candidate, his general election commercials appear nonpartisan and make an obvious play for voters across the political spectrum by focusing on family values and patriotism as well as "welfare to work" and lower taxes.

Over the past few weeks, he angered liberals by supporting compromise electronic surveillance rules for the government's wiretapping program even though the bill provided immunity that he opposed last year for telecommunications companies that conducted warrantless eavesdropping. When the Supreme Court overturned the District of Columbia's gun ban, he said he favors both an individual's right to bear firearms and a government's right to regulate them.

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And, he broke with death penalty opponents when he disagreed with the Supreme Court's decision outlawing executions of people who rape children.

On Iraq, he has gone from a boisterous end-the-war call that endeared him to the left flank to more nuanced rhetoric. He has long called for a troop drawdown process that could last 16 months. Last week, he said his upcoming Iraq trip might lead him to refine, but not basically alter, his determination to pull U.S. troops out of combat in Iraq and that the safety of U.S. troops and the stability of Iraq might force him to adjust his timetable. It's a potentially flexible formulation that has troubled liberals even though he's said throughout his candidacy that the nation needs to be careful leaving Iraq.

"I am somebody who is no doubt progressive. I believe in a tax code that we need to make more fair. I believe in universal health care. I believe in making college affordable. I believe in paying our teachers more money. I believe in early childhood education," Obama told his audience here. "I believe in a whole lot of things that make me progressive and squarely in the Democratic camp."

But, he said: "I'm not just somebody who is talking about government as the solution to everything. I also believe in personal responsibility. I also believe in faith."

So, he said when he talks about the idea of recruiting churches and other religious groups to provide community services through faith-based initiatives, as he did last week, "that's not something new. I've been talking about that for years now. I've been organizing with churches for years in the community. So the notion that somehow that's me trying to look more centered, more centrist, is just not true."

He also raised the Supreme Court ruling that upheld the rights of individuals to bear arms and said: "I actually have said that I agree with that for years, even before the ruling came down." He said that doesn't contradict his view that "we've got decent controls over the use of illegal firearms in our community."

And, addressing the questioner's Iraq query, Obama drew cheers when he said: "I opposed this war from the start" and "I have also consistently said that once we were in, we had to be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in."

McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds argued Obama "put politics ahead of principle" on numerous issues and "has proven his rhetoric to be nothing but empty words and broken pledges that are at odds with his left wing partisan record. Barack Obama is wrong: everyone's been listening and still nobody knows what Barack Obama truly believes."

POWDER SPRINGS, Ga. — Asked by a voter about accusations of flip-flopping, Democrat Barack Obama dismissed the notion Tuesday that he has shifted stances on Iraq, guns and the death penalty to b...
POWDER SPRINGS, Ga. — Asked by a voter about accusations of flip-flopping, Democrat Barack Obama dismissed the notion Tuesday that he has shifted stances on Iraq, guns and the death penalty to b...
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- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1681 fans permalink
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Moderator's Pick

HuffPost's Pick

I started out this primary season supporting Kucinich. That support was not based on the slightest expectation that he could win the nomination. It was to have him on the stage in each debate, speaking the truth, and putting pressure on others.

Some might recall the first debate where both 0bama and H!llary implied that they would get us out of Iraq by 2012. They were immediately attacked by Richrdson, Kucinich and Gravel. Consequently, we never heard that nonsense from HRC and obama again.

That was the value of Kucinich, Richradson, Gravel and others.

We are now down to 0bama and Mc Cain to choose from. It is OK to criticise obama on specific issues, and to try and pull him as much as possible to the Left. However, let's keep it constructive. Let's not lose sight of the goal. The goal is to put an end to Republican hold on the White House.

As Liberals, we must live with the fact that our victories are always incremental. And we have far more defeats than we have victories. That is simply because we are always up against the rich and the powerful.

There is no shame in incremental progress. It is not compromising our princioples, it is achieving the most that is possible at each step. Let's work to maximise that increment, but let's not forget our goal : defeat Republicans.

.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:03 PM on 07/08/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1681 fans permalink
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Oh no, now I'm teacher's pet.

OK folks, let me have it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:23 PM on 07/08/2008
- Flagal I'm a Fan of Flagal 7 fans permalink

Better than a hall monitor.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:33 PM on 07/08/2008
- kevenseven I'm a Fan of kevenseven 501 fans permalink
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I've had three of them. I thought the one I wrote about the Greens needing to get a brain and stop running candidates for pres and instead elect 12 congressmen was actually worthy of some notice.

And your note above is one of your better ones.

But my goal is not to defeat Republicans, it is to build a more just, populist and progressive society.

Defeating Rethus is a means to that end. And in fact, Ob ama is just a means to my end. He is a tool in my hands, the work being to build the nation that wo many people pretend America already is.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:35 PM on 07/08/2008
- lainey I'm a Fan of lainey 53 fans permalink

OK Hume, we have been at it before, so here goes.. (and by the way, I like how you set it up-no hurt feelings just an honest exchange). You should have stuck with Kucinich and worked hard to get him elected. If you held his ideals high, then shame on you for not believing and working to make it happen. You came to the arena with a losing mentality, just waiting to be the contrarian. The problem is, contraria's don't get things accomplished, they just spoil progress. By opposing everything he does- even in a civil tone--you have the Nader effect. And that effect gave us a war in Iraq. I get the sense that this is all fun and games to you--or just a way to showcase your talents--but there are people's lives and livelihoods at stake. Furthermore, I don't think that you ever knew Obama and therefore don't have the knowledge to contradict everything he says. Take care.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:33 PM on 07/08/2008

Excellent post Humeskeptic!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:26 PM on 07/08/2008
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Brownnoser but excellent post.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:33 PM on 07/08/2008

but sometimes, when the patient is on life support, incremental progress isn't good enough . . . radical measures must be taken before the body gives out!

i believe that such is the state of our constution, and that any further compromise will finish it off

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:41 PM on 07/08/2008
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The FISA court at least issues warrants.

McBush supports the Patriot Act that allows PHYSICAL searches and seizures without warrants based on nebulous "matters of national security".

McBush supports permanently rescinding Habeas Corpus, and calls the SCOTUS in restoring Habeas Corpus as one of the courts worse decisions.

The FISA bill is a gnat to an elephant considering the two breaches McBush supports.

0bama will review all these breaches.

Stay on the sidelines if you will by enabling McBush is sticking a stake through the heart of the Constitution.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:52 PM on 07/08/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1681 fans permalink
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I would like a radical change as well. But, if 2/ 5 X radical is the best we can get this time around, I say take it, and keep trying for the other 3/5.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:05 PM on 07/08/2008

Well said.

One thing I would comment on:

"As Liberals, we must live with the fact that our victories are always incremental. And we have far more defeats than we have victories. That is simply because we are always up against the rich and the powerful."

It is not just the rich and the powerful. There are many common folks who just see things differently than we do, who believe just as strongly. Yes, we want change to happen fast, but if we push too hard, like Bush did, there will be a strong reaction... decades go by and we find ourselves pretty much in the same spot, but with all the scars in society to show for it. This is why I have supported BO's drive to unite rather than cause gridlock. Great statesmanship creates lasting change when based on sound principles like those of equality and justice embodied in the philosophy of many in the Democratic Party - BO of course being the leader.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:46 PM on 07/08/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1681 fans permalink
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You make some good points. When I said "rich and powerful", I had in mind mostly big corporations, the military industrial complex, the oil companies and such.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:09 PM on 07/08/2008

This just in: the AP did a poll of pet owners and found that people with animals prefer McCain!
"Pet owners find McCain with his house full of animals more appealing than the petless Obama"
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/associated_press_pet_owners_pr.php

See what I mean? The AP really does appear to be less than trustworthy on the subject of national politics. Like to say they're acceptable on family and pet issues, but guess not.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:00 PM on 07/08/2008
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I was not asked. I don't own two cats they just allow us to live with them though.

I bet the majority of people does not know if either candidate owns pets anyway.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:37 PM on 07/08/2008
- WLA I'm a Fan of WLA 323 fans permalink
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Both my dog and cat have confirmed that they are voting for 0bama.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:43 PM on 07/08/2008
- strifeknot I'm a Fan of strifeknot 14 fans permalink

I hope they've been spayed and neutered.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:39 PM on 07/08/2008

My Jack Russell has gone door knocking for Obama.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:04 PM on 07/08/2008
- SCG I'm a Fan of SCG 110 fans permalink
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CNN now, James Baker speaking on behalf of re-visiting the war power act, giving congress more say.

Ironic and sadly a bit late.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:00 PM on 07/08/2008
- kevenseven I'm a Fan of kevenseven 501 fans permalink
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Did he follow up with reconsidering stealing the 2000 election?

Thought not.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:23 PM on 07/08/2008
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"I opposed this war from the start" and "I have also consistently said that once we were in, we had to be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in."

Proof 0bama's opinion has never changed on Iraq. 0bama has said the same thing his whole campaign. MSNBC showed 3 video clips going back to September where 0bama has said as C-in-C he will always adjust his TACTICS based on conditions on the ground but the mission to get out of Iraq is not negotiable.

The Audacity of Hope, where he wrote: "While the evidence tells me that the death penalty does little to deter crime, I believe there are some crimes--mass murder, the rape and murder of a child--so heinous, so beyond the pale, that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment."

No change on the death penalty.

0bama's record on women's right to chose speaks for itself 100% NARAL rating while McBush's rating is 0.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:58 PM on 07/08/2008
- WLA I'm a Fan of WLA 323 fans permalink
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I don't know if my other comment will ever come through, so:

O has not flip-flopped. This is another GOP talking point like saying that O is "far left." Neither are the case. The neocons always try to paint the opposition with their own weakness. The actual facts, for anyone who has been paying attention, indicate that McFlop has flipped to the far right on dozens of issues.

If anyone who was even inclined to lean Democratic, or isn't absolutely thrilled with the last 7.5 years (wealthiest n%) is even THINKING about voting for McSame, I question if they are a "low information" voter, or voting for a daddy figure or something. I can't figure these people out.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:16 PM on 07/08/2008
- jOke I'm a Fan of jOke 2 fans permalink

THANK YOU..!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:27 PM on 07/08/2008
- bigfro I'm a Fan of bigfro 11 fans permalink

Then why aren't you protecting the 4th amendment and the separation of church and state. What an ego.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:53 PM on 07/08/2008
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Get a clue and the facts

"On the faith-based initiative, Obama’s way isn’t Bush’s way

By all appearances, Obama’s vision is consistent with what Bush’s plan would have been, if Bush cared about constitutional law, the interests of taxpayers, the rights of families in need, and the integrity of religious institutions. From Obama’s speech:

0bama said “Now, make no mistake, as someone who used to teach constitutional law, I believe deeply in the separation of church and state, but I don’t believe this partnership will endanger that idea – so long as we follow a few basic principles. First, if you get a federal grant, you can’t use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can’t discriminate against them – or against the people you hire – on the basis of their religion. Second, federal dollars that go directly to churches, temples, and mosques can only be used on secular programs. And we’ll also ensure that taxpayer dollars only go to those programs that actually work.”

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:01 PM on 07/08/2008
- lvogt I'm a Fan of lvogt 26 fans permalink

This guy Tucker Bounds is clearly just trying to make ignorant people believe things that aren't true.
In the primary Obama had to differentiate himself from Clinton. In the general he has to differentiate himself from McCain. It's a different challenge and requires different tactics. The GOP is just hurling baseless accusations because they have nothing to offer that anybody wants.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:49 PM on 07/08/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1681 fans permalink
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0bama is right.

As much as I disagree with 0bama voting "yes" on the FISA bill ( I have suspended volunteering for him in protest), and I don't like the Government making medical decisions for late term abortions, and I'm not for continuation of faith-based initiatives, there is no doubt in my mind, none whatsoever, that I would vote for 0bama and not for Mc Cain.

It would be utterly irrational to vote for Mc Cain because of disagreement with 0bama on a few issues.

Consider abortion: 0bama is solidly pro-choice, Mc Cain is solidly anti-choice.
Consider war : 0bama has always been and remains anti-war and for quick withdrawal, Mc Cain is just the opposite.

Consider taxes and economy and environment and education and healthcare: They are almost opposite of each other,

and the list goes on.

It would be utterly irrational to not vote for 0bama, or to not vote at all, thereby helping Mc Cain - a candidate who would just continue the disastrous policies of the present administration.

.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:42 PM on 07/08/2008
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Come on now, Hume.
At the very least, you must consider the state that one lives in.
For example, I live in a red state.
What difference does it make to 0bama if I vote for Nader or the Green Party nom?
What is irrational about it?
Like it or not, we have that MF-ing electoral college.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:49 PM on 07/08/2008
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I live in the red state of GA, but if I thought that way 0bama would never have a chance. Moreover 0bama needs a mandate to get things reversed. For once every vote counts this election. If you ask me voting for Nader is a coward's vote. It's just not taking a stand out of spite. It's easy for Nader who NEVER held political office to say anything he damn well pleases. It's much harder to hold you principles and appeal to enough people on all sides to win a general election.

People just have no idea how hard it is to run for president, especially since this nation is so polarized.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:12 PM on 07/08/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1681 fans permalink
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Your money can still make a difference. Your fund raising and your volunteering can make a difference. Besides, why not contribute to his poular vote? It would give him more of a claim of having a "mandate".

Of course, I have no right to tell you what you shoul do. I can only tell you how I would look at it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:12 PM on 07/08/2008
- kevenseven I'm a Fan of kevenseven 501 fans permalink
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The total number of votes he gets defines his mandate.

Neither Bill Clin ton nor Bu sh had a persuasive mandate to govern.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:16 PM on 07/08/2008
- k6007 I'm a Fan of k6007 239 fans permalink
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Suspended? For how long? Are you still donating money??

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:50 PM on 07/08/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1681 fans permalink
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I maxed out. So, I don't have that carrot. For how long? We'll see. If I get really happy with something that he does, I'll jump right back in.

The reality is that I have no choice but to support 0bama. In my view, there is no worse outcome for the country than a Mc Cain win. So, these little games I play is to try and pull 0bama as much to the Left as possible. Quite possibly, it would have no effect unless there are many like me.

But, in the end, 0bama is my man, not Mc Cain.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:10 PM on 07/08/2008
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I don't understand. It's almost like people are deaf when 0bama says something these days because everyone wants to think the worse.

He IS making Boosh's faith based initiatives Constitutional which under Boosh they are not. The fact is the government has always given money to these religious organizations to fight poverty. In the past they would have to set up non-religious non-profit groups but they were the same people. 0bama is now just cutting out the fact that religious groups need to set up side organizations, by saying that if they adhere to lawful hiring practices and do not proselytize, that they can get government funds.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/16056.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:06 PM on 07/08/2008

"I don't understand. It's almost like people are deaf when 0bama says something these days because everyone wants to think the worse"

Yep t no shortage of "chicken little's" posting here lately.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:09 PM on 07/08/2008
- WLA I'm a Fan of WLA 323 fans permalink
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I am inclined to agree. However, I really still haven't seen confirmed flip-flops. The truth is, he was never as "far left" as the GOP tried to label him. I looked at real issues and chose Kucinich in the primary.

I see O's positions as being very consistent. The flip-flop thing holds no water, just as the talking point that O is some kind of super lefty.

In any case, he will get my vote. The differences between O and McSame are so vast that any Democratic or even anyone who isn't a "28%-er" that votes for "four more years" with McSame does so at their own peril. I cannot understand how anyone except the most wealthy 2% of this country could possibly think that we are on the correct course.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:10 PM on 07/08/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1681 fans permalink
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I agree, WLA. I don't know how anyone thought that 0bama was far Left. And there is no flip-flop. It's all Right Wing spin.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:35 PM on 07/08/2008
- sandtats I'm a Fan of sandtats 2 fans permalink

You do realize that the Senate has NOT voted on FISA yet, right?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:28 PM on 07/08/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1681 fans permalink
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Yes. But, at this point, I don't expect any surprises. Do you?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:33 PM on 07/08/2008
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One of my pet peeeves about people railing against the FISA Bill. The FISA Bill while I don't support the immunity part at least requires a court to issue a warrant.

Everyone seems to forget that the other candidate McBush would indefinitely suspend Habeas Corpus under the bogus auspices of fighting the War on Terror.

Worse yet the Patriot Act is still in place which is a direct breach or the 4th amendment by allowing warrantless PHYSICAL searches and seizures based on highly dubious claims that Homeland security trumps individual rights.

OK I feel better.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:41 PM on 07/08/2008
- kevenseven I'm a Fan of kevenseven 501 fans permalink
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You don't know bubkiss about FISA.

No offense.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:17 PM on 07/08/2008
- 111 I'm a Fan of 111 34 fans permalink

So, you do realize that FISA as it was provided as much intelligence as we need to catch the bad guy and that it is in place, has been in place and does not need amending at all?

The new FISA bill is written to reduce the authority of the court to prevent the government's spying on Americans. You do realize that if the court says no that the government can continue to spy on you because it can. It also eliminates the need for the government to search for something specific so they can order mass surveillance and for a general reason. Your information is stored until they want to know about you.

This bill is unnecessary except to prevent the courts from exposing the extent of what was done. The telecom lobbyists met in secret with the likes of Pelosi - dictated to her what they wanted done and she is pushing the bill.

Be afraid.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:17 PM on 07/08/2008

Bogus! Sorry, but these accusations are completely baseless.

FISA orginally did not have provisions that would allow computer programs to monitor the vast sea of international communication- so called "basket monitoring". If we had to have a warrant to monitor suspicious chatter we would be bogged down constantly in our efforts.

Now, when we pass from simple computer red flags raised during the sifting of suspicious data to actual agents spying on us individually there is no doubt that a warrant is necessary in order to not violate due process and probable cause. This due process was consistently violated by the Bush administration, but will not be thanks to the new FISA bill BO supported.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:38 PM on 07/08/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1681 fans permalink
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Lets' look ar the term flip-flop.

It refers to a complete change of position by a politician. For example, being against tax-cuts for the rich, then becoming for it. Introducing a bill and being the champion of immigration reform, then becoming against it. And so on.

There has been no such flip-flop by 0bama, with the possible exception of campaign financing.

I am opposed to his position on FISA, and I have stopped fund-raising for him in protest, but it wasn't a flip-flop on his part. He is still against retroactive immunity. It is just that he is unwilling to fight for it in the manner that some of us would like.

By talking about flip-flop, we are letting the Right Wing redifine the term, just so they can use it against 0bama.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:36 PM on 07/08/2008
- zuffaloo I'm a Fan of zuffaloo 3 fans permalink

Hear hear!

I don't agree w/ campaign financing being a possible exception, tho. The 'publicly funded campaign' he is & was for is one in which everyone is required to use it & no one's allowed to supplement it w/ their own money or contributions from anyone else. He has put some limitations on his campaign (no lobbyist or PAC money) that no one else need follow, but he does have to come up with the money to counter all the swift boat ads the GOP & their fundraising machine (with no ethical limitations whatsoever, & no contribution limits) is already financing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:53 PM on 07/08/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1681 fans permalink
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Personally, I don't give a rat's a$$ even if it was a flip-flop on campaign financing. It was a tactical move. It is a good sign that he is willing to change tactics, rather than "stay the course" nonsense knowing that it would lead to defeat.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:16 PM on 07/08/2008
- kevenseven I'm a Fan of kevenseven 501 fans permalink
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I am afraid that his position on FISA is too far removed from that of January to be called anything but a reversal.

He had promised a filibuster of immunity, and he has failed us on that.

When he could have scotched the whole mess in the first place.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:18 PM on 07/08/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1681 fans permalink
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OK. But the bill was different in January, as I understand it. 0bama is saying (I don't know if it is entirely valid) that the overall bill is better now, and hence his change in position.

As you know, I don't like his position and we both know why he is doing it - there is a deal with Republicans to keep immunity provision in exchange for other changes in the bill.

I think he made a huge mistake. He could have turned this whole thing around as a citizen's rights issue.

.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:51 PM on 07/08/2008
- 111 I'm a Fan of 111 34 fans permalink

Perhaps we feel there was a FISA flip flop because of statements like this which i have to edit down because of Huffpo -

I strongly oppose retroactive immunity in the FISA bill.

Ever since 9/11, this Administration has put forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand.

The FISA court works. The separation of power works. We can trace, track down and take out terrorists while ensuring that our actions are subject to vigorous oversight, and do not undermine the very laws and freedom that we are fighting to defend.

No one should get a free pass to violate the basic civil liberties of the American people - not the President of the United States, and not the telecommunications companies that fell in line with his warrantless surveillance program. We have to make clear the lines that cannot be crossed.

A grassroots movement of Americans has pushed this issue to the forefront. You have come together across this country. You have called upon our leaders to adhere to the Constitution. You have sent a message to the halls of power that the American people will not permit the abuse of power – and demanded that we reclaim our core values by restoring the rule of law.

I share your commitment to this cause, and will stand with you in the fights to come.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:44 PM on 07/08/2008
- Flagal I'm a Fan of Flagal 7 fans permalink

I had a long day, my truck gets 10 miles to the gal. I amt rading it in this week and will get diddly squat.
I am in a foul mood, and ready to fight.
Bring it on anti- O folks, I am ready.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:34 PM on 07/08/2008

What are you trading for? I hope you say Honda.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:38 PM on 07/08/2008
- Flagal I'm a Fan of Flagal 7 fans permalink

Honda CRV or FIT, Mazda3 5 door GT. 3 I am considering, leaning towards the Mazda. FIT is agreat little car but no storage.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:49 PM on 07/08/2008

Sorry to hear about your troubles. You will not get an argument from me about Obama, though. I have been supporting his campaign for a long time and I did not feel that there was a move to the center. The man is not even anywhere on the straight line between far left and far right. He is way, way above it.

I am saddened that so many Obama supporters are now saying that they feel betrayed. I for sure do not. But then, I took the time to listen to the message.

Alternatively, we might just be seeing a lot of trolling. The far left feels outgunned and devalued (all the people they wanted to listen to them for so long are now listening to Obama, so they are ranting and venting) and the GOP trolls are just trying a new strategy after the Clinton "support" badly misfired.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:47 PM on 07/08/2008
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I heard that 0bama is a moose limb.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:55 PM on 07/08/2008
- 111 I'm a Fan of 111 34 fans permalink

I almost bit - can't you do any better?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:46 PM on 07/08/2008
- kay I'm a Fan of kay 172 fans permalink

So, the Iraqis want a timetable for withdrawal.

Obama wants a timetable for withdrawal.

How does John McCain justify to Americans that US conservatives are the only ones who don't want a timetable for withdrawal?

Aren't US conservatives going to be a little isolated on this? Without the respective US and Iraqi citizenry?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:30 PM on 07/08/2008
- JimR I'm a Fan of JimR 42 fans permalink

Who do those Iraqis think they are? They act like it's their country or something.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:43 PM on 07/08/2008
- kay I'm a Fan of kay 172 fans permalink

Obama is ruthless and opportunistic. It's what I liked about Bill Clinton :)

It's just about the only thing I liked about Bill Clinton. I used to listen to Lefties decrying Clintons opportunistic ways and think "and....so.....?"

I recognize that this takes me out of the holier than thou club.

Most of the effective Presidents were ruthless and opportunistic. Like it or not.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:54 PM on 07/08/2008

That's been my thoughts since I heard this on Sunday. Is the MSM making this A to B connection, or are they merely taking what's always spoon-fed to them by McCain + co. (I'm honestly asking this question b/c I don't watch hardly any tv news)
I just don't understand it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:51 PM on 07/08/2008
- mergina I'm a Fan of mergina 96 fans permalink
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OKALEEE DOKALEEEE

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:28 PM on 07/08/2008
- Sarahjan I'm a Fan of Sarahjan 6 fans permalink

ClydeSloppers

it is not wise to reduce politics to two parties. But in this election it is pertinent to defeat McBush.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:28 PM on 07/08/2008
- zuffaloo I'm a Fan of zuffaloo 3 fans permalink

"Moving to the center" is an overused and poorly defined phrase. I've always thought Obama's most intreaging quality was his ability to find common ground between people/parties of seemingly opposing views. I could easily see people labling this as "moving to the center," "betraying his base," etc.

Whatever - it's what he's always done, & it's what this country needs badly. In fact that's the very reason every action by every public person is magnified to such extremes. We've allowed the neocons & the media to tear us into a country of haters that feel we must remain bitterly opposed on every issue. This is what we need to repair more than the economy, oil dependence , foreign policy, global warming, or any other issue.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:26 PM on 07/08/2008

Nader and McKinney starting to look good to you all? YEAH!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:22 PM on 07/08/2008
- Flagal I'm a Fan of Flagal 7 fans permalink

Not at all. Why?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:24 PM on 07/08/2008
- Mercurial I'm a Fan of Mercurial 5 fans permalink

I have heard the name Nader but don't know this McKinney.....so nopers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:46 PM on 07/08/2008
- evekendall I'm a Fan of evekendall 155 fans permalink
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If you vote for them, you will end up with McCain. So what is your point?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:37 PM on 07/08/2008

Nader still looks like the self promoting loser that he always was.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:49 PM on 07/08/2008
- pupbayer I'm a Fan of pupbayer 23 fans permalink

I'm open to anybody and everybody at this point.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:08 PM on 07/08/2008
- TexasDem0 I'm a Fan of TexasDem0 37 fans permalink

ClydeSloppers, since most elections are decided by a majority vote, it is inherently a two party system. A third party candidate typically takes votes away from the candidate with whom he has more in common. Ralph Nader is certainly more like Barack Obama than John McCain. People inclined to vote for John McCain would not be inclined to vote for either Barack Obama or Ralph Nader. Ralph Nader would draw votes away from Barack Obams, and the GOP election theft machine will use it as cover to steal yet another election.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:15 PM on 07/08/2008
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