Clinton: Why I Voted No On FISA

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First Posted: 07- 9-08 05:00 PM   |   Updated: 07-17-08 05:12 AM

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Clinton Fisa

The Senate passed a revamped version of FISA legislation on Wednesday. But that conclusion was never in doubt. The real intrigue surrounded which Democrats would buck the compromise, which included immunity for telecommunications companies, and what side Sen. Hillary Clinton would come down on.

Late this afternoon, Clinton voted against the bill, putting her at odds with the party's presumptive nominee, Barack Obama. In a statement put out by her Internet guru, Peter Daou, the New York Democrat struck a similar chord as her Illinois counterpart, describing the compromise as legislation that will "strengthen oversight of the administration's surveillance activities over previous drafts." She also, like Obama, pinpointed shortcomings in oversight, immunity, and other aspects of the compromise. But, in the end, she, unlike Obama, was persuaded to vote no.

"[A]ny surveillance program must contain safeguards to protect the rights of Americans against abuse, and to preserve clear lines of oversight and accountability over this administration. I applaud the efforts of my colleagues who negotiated this legislation, and I respect my colleagues who reached a different conclusion on today's vote. I do so because this is a difficult issue. Nonetheless, I could not vote for the legislation in its current form."

[snip]

"Congress must vigorously check and balance the president even in the face of dangerous enemies and at a time of war. That is what sets us apart. And that is what is vital to ensuring that any tool designed to protect us is used - and used within the law - for that purpose and that purpose alone. I believe my responsibility requires that I vote against this compromise, and I will continue to pursue reforms that will improve our ability to collect intelligence in our efforts to combat terror and to oversee that authority in Congress."

Full Statement Below

One of the great challenges before us as a nation is remaining steadfast in our fight against terrorism while preserving our commitment to the rule of law and individual liberty. As a senator from New York on September 11, I understand the importance of taking any and all necessary steps to protect our nation from those who would do us harm. I believe strongly that we must modernize our surveillance laws in order to provide intelligence professionals the tools needed to fight terrorism and make our country more secure. However, any surveillance program must contain safeguards to protect the rights of Americans against abuse, and to preserve clear lines of oversight and accountability over this administration. I applaud the efforts of my colleagues who negotiated this legislation, and I respect my colleagues who reached a different conclusion on today's vote. I do so because this is a difficult issue. Nonetheless, I could not vote for the legislation in its current form.

The legislation would overhaul the law that governs the administration's surveillance activities. Some of the legislation's provisions place guidelines and restrictions on the operational details of the surveillance activities, others increase judicial and legislative oversight of those activities, and still others relate to immunity for telecommunications companies that participated in the administration's surveillance activities.

While this legislation does strengthen oversight of the administration's surveillance activities over previous drafts, in many respects, the oversight in the bill continues to come up short. For instance, while the bill nominally calls for increased oversight by the FISA Court, its ability to serve as a meaningful check on the President's power is debatable. The clearest example of this is the limited power given to the FISA Court to review the government's targeting and minimization procedures.

But the legislation has other significant shortcomings. The legislation also makes no meaningful change to the immunity provisions. There is little disagreement that the legislation effectively grants retroactive immunity to the telecommunications companies. In my judgment, immunity under these circumstances has the practical effect of shutting down a critical avenue for holding the administration accountable for its conduct. It is precisely why I have supported efforts in the Senate to strip the bill of these provisions, both today and during previous debates on this subject. Unfortunately, these efforts have been unsuccessful.

What is more, even as we considered this legislation, the administration refused to allow the overwhelming majority of Senators to examine the warrantless wiretapping program. This made it exceedingly difficult for those Senators who are not on the Intelligence and Judiciary Committees to assess the need for the operational details of the legislation, and whether greater protections are necessary. The same can be said for an assessment of the telecom immunity provisions. On an issue of such tremendous importance to our citizens - and in particular to New Yorkers - all Senators should have been entitled to receive briefings that would have enabled them to make an informed decision about the merits of this legislation. I cannot support this legislation when we know neither the nature of the surveillance activities authorized nor the role played by telecommunications companies granted immunity.

Congress must vigorously check and balance the president even in the face of dangerous enemies and at a time of war. That is what sets us apart. And that is what is vital to ensuring that any tool designed to protect us is used - and used within the law - for that purpose and that purpose alone. I believe my responsibility requires that I vote against this compromise, and I will continue to pursue reforms that will improve our ability to collect intelligence in our efforts to combat terror and to oversee that authority in Congress.

The Senate passed a revamped version of FISA legislation on Wednesday. But that conclusion was never in doubt. The real intrigue surrounded which Democrats would buck the compromise, which included im...
The Senate passed a revamped version of FISA legislation on Wednesday. But that conclusion was never in doubt. The real intrigue surrounded which Democrats would buck the compromise, which included im...
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My God such sour grapes from the Obama crowd. Say all you want... she is the ONLY one of the two that voted correctly.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:45 AM on 07/10/2008
- kennedy I'm a Fan of kennedy 19 fans permalink

Hillary is the only one of the two that got the vote on FISA correct.

Hillary said months ago she would not vote for FISA. And Hillary has kept her word over and over and over again. No on FISA......­..and I want to thank Hillary for supporting all Americans privacy rights. And not selling out to the highest bidder.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:46 AM on 07/10/2008
- WFV I'm a Fan of WFV 13 fans permalink
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Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

Anything to earn a few more contributions to offset massive debt. She is hopeless and pathetic.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:29 AM on 07/10/2008
- TrueThis I'm a Fan of TrueThis 31 fans permalink

Why she didn't vote against the Iraq war and invading Iran? I don't trust her.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:22 AM on 07/10/2008

Au contraire.

Time to stop trusting, especially blindly trusting, anyone who would vote FOR this bill.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:32 AM on 07/10/2008

Everyone is freaking out about Hillary but Obama is the one you have to place all your trust in. Hillary is out !

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:48 AM on 07/10/2008

she voted no because her vote essentially doesnt matter.
if she was nominated would she still have voted no. thats what i thought.
will somebody tell her to go back into her batcave. please.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:51 PM on 07/09/2008
- ohmercy I'm a Fan of ohmercy 25 fans permalink

awwww,
you sound bitter.
If you hate her so much why are you here reading about her?
Obsessed much?
Taking a break from feeling bad about Obama's betrayal of your rights?

Do you know how dumb your comment sounds?
(How old are you anyway?)
it would take you maybe 3 mionutes to google and find out what Hillary's position is and has been ion this. Its been up on her website since January... when she was running for President, remember?

AND...
I believe she was a co-sponser of this bill.

silly, silly boy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:57 PM on 07/09/2008
- TrueThis I'm a Fan of TrueThis 31 fans permalink

If she call herself supporting Obama, she really doing a good job, voting the opposite way by trying betray herself differently. And plus this bill can always be amended. What's the big deal? Bush will be out soon.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:25 AM on 07/10/2008
- LarBear I'm a Fan of LarBear 30 fans permalink
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Her vote and attempt to strip immunity from the Bill did count.... Give honest credit where due...
And what cave should spineless, Oath breaking Obama, slither off to? Give honest credit where due...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:02 AM on 07/10/2008
- kennedy I'm a Fan of kennedy 19 fans permalink

Hillarys vote not only counted but, was HUGE. She stood up for all of us while Obama was planting knives in our backs. WAKE UP!

Hillary said all along she would NOT VOTE FOR FISA. And Hillary kept her word.

Look up what Obama use to say about FISA. And you will find his knife sticking out of your back.

Hillary showed courage today by being our voices. And Obama showed himself to be a coward by standing beside his cousins Bush and Cheney, not us.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:59 AM on 07/10/2008
- Titonwan I'm a Fan of Titonwan 7 fans permalink

Obamaaaaaa­aaaaaaaaaa­aaaaaaaaa lied.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:27 PM on 07/09/2008

And there you have it.....eve­n when Hillary is right, Obama's supporters can't give it up for her...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:23 AM on 07/10/2008
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I will. I loathe Hillary Clinton. Completely. But I give her props for her vote on this bill. She made Obama look like an ass (which isn't hard to do these days) and I'm sure there may have been a smidge of satisfaction in doing so. Regardless, however, her vote was the right one. And Obama's vote just cost him mine.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:13 AM on 07/10/2008
- shep1900 I'm a Fan of shep1900 6 fans permalink

Again.

I'm start to lose track of his machinatio­ns/prevari­cations.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:53 AM on 07/10/2008
- John51 I'm a Fan of John51 10 fans permalink

Agreed. When push comes to shove, Obama is all about change. Changing his stripes, changing his tune, changing his mind. He has proven he is lying weasel unable to stand for what he believes. Past behavior is an excellent indicator of future behavior thus we may expect, if elected, Obama will be our weakest president ever.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:16 AM on 07/10/2008

I don't too much care for Hilary Clinton, but her position on this issue has convinced me to donate some money to help her clear her campaign debt. I'm still in Obama's corner, but I'm boycotting my political contributions to him until August.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:23 PM on 07/09/2008
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I am too. She did the correct thing and should be rewarded. But not too much, I don't want a big percentage of my money to go to Mark Penn. Obama gets nothing but my vote.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:50 AM on 07/10/2008

People, its called integrity that's why she did it. According to maplight.org Hillary received $246,747 from the telecoms in 2008 while Obama received 206,000. She voted against the bill because it had immunity for the telecoms, he voted for the bill and did not fillibuster passage as he had promised. Reminds me of "say anything, do anything to win". HA HA.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:00 PM on 07/09/2008
- chilifan I'm a Fan of chilifan 8 fans permalink

I hated the way so many people who supported Obama did not hold him accountable. No one was allowed to criticize him, and that was what first got me wondering about him. I wanted to believe in someone, someone new and different, someone brave and who showed integrity, someone vastly different from our current "leader." But I couldn't just blindly accept that he was the chosen one without at least doing some homework on him, just to make sure I was as informed as I felt I should be about him, or anyone else running for president.

GWB was above criticism too. If we are not allowed to criticize the president, we are not free. I am so sick and tired of being lied to and treated like a fool. Obama has proven he cannot be trusted and is not a man of his word. He just wants power, and he will do anything to get it. There really is no difference between the parties that I can see, and we are just replacing one bad king with another. I wanted to believe in this man. I wanted to vote for him. But I don't like what he did with this vote, and I will not forget it, forgive it, or make excuses for it. He's bad news, period. If I vote for him, it will be with a bitter taste in my mouth and not really a vote for him, so much as against McCain.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:19 AM on 07/10/2008
- Heidfeld I'm a Fan of Heidfeld 11 fans permalink

Hey it it's not too late. You don't have to vote for Obama cause he is just slightly better than McCain...

The Democratic convention is still 6 weeks away. We can still put forth a true Democratic nominee (Hillary or Biden). It is far from too late.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:26 AM on 07/10/2008

I initially switched my support from Clinton to Obama shortly after the New York primary, when Obama came back to vote against FISA and Clinton chose not to come back and vote.

And now this. I feel betrayed.

I was a passionate advocate for Obama on message boards all over the Internet, such as the NY Times and Washington Post forums. Because of this, I have chosen to stop blogging on his behalf, for now. I have also decided against sending donations to his campaign, again, for now.

For me to regain enthusiasm for Obama, I need to see proof that he values our Constitutional rights far more than this vote reflects. I also want to see somebody who is proud to be a Progressive, rather than somebody who is so fearful of being maligned as unpatriotic by the right.

Senator Obama, you have just diminished your stature. I hope your handlers feel it was worth it to you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:51 PM on 07/09/2008

Please recall that the date in quesiton was the date of the Potomac Primaries.

Hillary was behind in the polls and out campaigning.

Obama was well ahead in the polls. He voted for the amendment to strip telecom immunity. Later that day, he did not vote on the bill which still contained immunity, the amendment having failed.

Hillary can be criticized for being AWOL all day. But Obama? He got his points for objecting to telecom immunity, but on the vote that MATTERED, he voted NOT PRESENT.

Still, it's a long way from voting AGAINST telecom immunity -- and promising to filibuster any bill that contained it -- to voting YES.

New Politics my arse.

Harrumph.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:36 AM on 07/10/2008
- rblackbird I'm a Fan of rblackbird 11 fans permalink

You mean Obama voted against telecom immunity before he voted for it?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:25 AM on 07/10/2008

Thanks to Hillary! I am really angry with all who sold out to the telecoms! I am sick of having my rights put on the block so politicians can get the funding they need to get elected. Obama has shown his true colors by joining that group he said his brand of change would eliminate. He's no knight in shining armor as he alleged! Same old, same old. Absolutely predictable.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:48 PM on 07/09/2008
- John51 I'm a Fan of John51 10 fans permalink

.....and it appears his true color is Yellow

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:20 AM on 07/10/2008

Clinton voted no because she voted YES on the war!
She dosen't fool me in the least.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:43 PM on 07/09/2008
- ohmercy I'm a Fan of ohmercy 25 fans permalink

Oh Boy.
WOW.
ding, ding, ding, ding,
Bingo.
You are one smart cookie.

Thanks for letting us know.

do you realize how idiotic you sound when with 5 mionutes of research would actually tell you how wrong you are?

Of course not.

Sweet dreams.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:29 PM on 07/09/2008
- WFV I'm a Fan of WFV 13 fans permalink
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You rock.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:29 AM on 07/10/2008

Give it up and grow up! You Hillary haters wished that Obama had voted the way she did instead of doing another flip-flop (campaign financing, abortion, Fisa, etc.).
I was against the Iraq war, but I didn't get a chance to vote against it in the Senate. Does that make me Presidential Material? Obama voted for every Iraq Bill since he arrived in the Senate.

Get the stars out of your eyes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:34 PM on 07/09/2008
- jpetaluma I'm a Fan of jpetaluma 2 fans permalink

You are absolutely right. Clinton voted "no" to even out her "yes" on the Iraq war vote. Her other motive is to turn people against Obama and make herself look good. Her goal - for him to lose and her to run again in 2012. Naturally, the short sighted Obama bashers are out in full force. All preachy and self righeous. Now they have their new heroine - Hillary. Horray! Dems will never win an election at this rate. But you all don't care because it's all about principles and values and the constituti­on... Well, I know you'll all feel so good about yourselves when McSame wins. I used to consider myself a progressive Democrat. Now I'm embarrassed. The extremes on the Left are just as destructive as those on the Right. I've had enough of you whiny babies.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:47 PM on 07/09/2008

I know one thing for sure, petaluma.
If Hillary was the nominee and she did this, you'd be screaming your head off about it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:27 AM on 07/10/2008
- ohmercy I'm a Fan of ohmercy 25 fans permalink

hey, here is a good one for you to look at.

But be careful, your head might explode.

http://tinyurl.com/3bulsa

Over the past year, Sen. Barack Obama has been a vocal supporter of the Feingold-Reid Iraq legislation that sets a strict timeline for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. But when a version of that bill was introduced this past week without a final date for troop removal, the Illinois senator chose not to attach his name to the list of co-sponsors.

Yesterday, Sen. Russ Feingold succeeded for the first time in getting the Senate to begin debating his measure to begin withdrawing troops in 120 days (with exceptions for certain specified missions). Neither of the Democratic presidential candidates was in D.C. to vote in favor of cloture, which allowed the bill to ultimately come to the floor. But only one -- Sen. Hillary Clinton -- co-sponsored the legislation

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:03 AM on 07/10/2008
- presto I'm a Fan of presto 18 fans permalink

Nobody could fool you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:32 AM on 07/10/2008
- Boadicea I'm a Fan of Boadicea 64 fans permalink

Yes to giving Bush permission to invade Iran, no to giving him permission to prevent it.

Good job, Hillary.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:04 PM on 07/09/2008

I am not impressed!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:03 PM on 07/09/2008
- ohmercy I'm a Fan of ohmercy 25 fans permalink

so.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:01 PM on 07/09/2008
- presto I'm a Fan of presto 18 fans permalink

What does impress you?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:32 AM on 07/10/2008

The real question beyond the sibling rivalry still taking place, even with the *past* immunity in place -- how well does it safeguard citizen's rights -- and how much does Bush wrest away in the neoyokes' favor?

Remember: How Obama and McCain vote on this seals the direction of this issue and how fast a current to have to work back up stream. This new document needs to be well-scrutinized. It is the Tea Leaf to read for the next four years.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:00 PM on 07/09/2008
- Budokan I'm a Fan of Budokan 201 fans permalink
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Clinton voted "no" because now it's politically safe for her to do so. One suspects her vote would have been much different had she won the nomination. Also, lest we forget, this is the same person who supported Bush's disastrous war policy in Iraq....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:14 PM on 07/09/2008

And your evidence? Does anyone have any reason other than their obvious, childlike bias against Clinton to assume this? No, didn't think so.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 PM on 07/09/2008
- ohmercy I'm a Fan of ohmercy 25 fans permalink

Geeeze Stephen...
You want a reason?

do you think reason actually plays into it?

I think you are asking for a lot here baby cakes?
LOL

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:48 PM on 07/09/2008
- presto I'm a Fan of presto 18 fans permalink

"One suspects..­...". Which one is that? And what possible justification do you have for saying that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:09 PM on 07/09/2008
- Cil I'm a Fan of Cil 13 fans permalink

presto

I would hazard a guess and say that "one" is Budokan. Guess what? This "one" agrees with Budocan.

You can take this to the BANK, if Hillary was the presumptive Democratic Nominee SHE WOULD HAVE VOTED YES! No ifs ands or buts.

Hillary can afford to vote against this bill because she now has NOTHING TO LOSE.
Please don't be naive, HILLARY VOTED FOR THE WAR, SHE AGREED WITH PRESIDENT BUSH ON HIS VOTE TO INVADE IRAQ. She would have been stupid not to grant immunity to all the TELECOMMUNICATORS who aided America in learning about terrorist activity. SO PLEASE PULL THAT NECK OF YOURS OUT OF THE SAND!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:50 PM on 07/09/2008
- ohmercy I'm a Fan of ohmercy 25 fans permalink

Here ya go:

Statement of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton

“Today, I will vote against Republican efforts to shortchange the debate on the FISA Amendments Act, important legislation that would modernize our surveillance laws and give our nation's intelligence professionals the tools they need to fight terrorism and make our country more secure. Rather than allow the Senate the opportunity to consider important amendments to this vital legislation, Republicans are instead blocking meaningful debate on this bill by playing procedural games, choosing instead to score cheap political points at the expense of our Homeland Security.

This legislation deserves a thorough debate. Several provisions - including those which would have a profound impact on the civil liberties of Americans - need to be the subject of careful deliberation. For example, the bill under consideration gives telecommunication companies blanket retroactive immunity for their alleged cooperation in the administration's warrantless wiretapping program. I continue to believe that a grant of retroactive immunity is wrong, and I have cosponsored Senator Dodd's amendment to remove that provision from the bill. The Bush Administration has blatantly disregarded Americans' civil liberties over the past seven years, and I simply will not trust them to protect Americans' privacy rights. With the temporary Protect America Act set to expire on February 1st, I strongly believe that we need to pass balanced legislation that protects our civil liberties and the rule of law while giving our law enforcement and intelligence agencies the tools they need to protect our country.”

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:23 PM on 07/09/2008
- WFV I'm a Fan of WFV 13 fans permalink
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Well, obviously, February 1st is a very safe date, don't you think?

More bla, bla, bla from a defeated candidate who is hopelessly trying to make an impact.

Send her some money. Get it over with.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:34 AM on 07/10/2008

Nice try. She co-sponsored the D odd amendment to strip immunity that was voted on today. O bama DID NOT. She's said all along this is how she would vote and she did.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:33 PM on 07/09/2008
- kennedy I'm a Fan of kennedy 19 fans permalink

The only people that "suspect" that is someone that lives up Obamas backside.

Come out for some fresh air and the truth about your backstabber.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:30 AM on 07/10/2008

It makes me sick, sick, sick to say it ..., but BO had to do it to get elected. So much for chage we can believe in. Will I still vote for him? Yes. Am I disappointed? Of course. Hopefully within 24 hours of taking office, he will introduce legislation to remove this stain on the 4th Amendment. Better still, let's hope the ACLU lawsuit challenging this terrible new law will prevail and kill it forever. It is unconsitutional. Politics sucks.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:01 PM on 07/09/2008

He sure as heck did not have to do this to get elected. I am so tired of Democrats letting the GOP define the debate. Maybe its time we learned how to define the debate terms and put the GOP on the defensive. After 8 years of Bushit, we are supposed to also believe the lie that the GOP is better prepared than the Dems in issues of National Security?? After all they have botched things?

What the Dems should have done is stressed how our Constitutional rights were being stripped away when they didn't need to be. Any one of the passionate debaters in Congress could make that point powerfully. I am sick to death of the fearful Democrats pandering. In this case, the rule of law was made a mockery of.

I am one person whose thorough passion for Obama's candidacy has dimmed. I'm beginning to think we chose the wrong dog in this race.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:57 PM on 07/09/2008
- LarBear I'm a Fan of LarBear 30 fans permalink
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theconsigliere1: QUOTE "but BO had to do it to get elected. So much for change we can believe in. Will I still vote for him? Yes." (another said) "She, Hillary, set a FISA trap. He had no choice but to vote for it and for once she voted to the left to make him look even worse."
Thank you both for confirming mindless, spineless Obama, with no free will of his own, had to vote opposite Hillary, even though he had already done a 1frakkin80 and changed his position to supporting the criminal Telecom's and Office Holders... I feel even better now, for I will not vote for the mindless, flip total FLOP, wimp...
Go ahead vote for him... He puts Ego and winning ahead of his Country...
Cowards may swear an Oath to defend and Protect the Constitution, but their Behavior speaks the truth...
QUOTE: McCaskill: (Endorses Obama) "I just don"t think we should punish these companies for their good-faith reliance on government assurances that they were assisting in a legal effort to combat terrorism.­"
At least 12 Telecom's did follow the Law and insisted upon Warrants..­. STOP the PUTRID lying and spinning..­. The ones who co-operated with the Un-Constitutional searches did so until the Feds were slow to pay... Then shut off the info... FISA is intact regardless of this current vote...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:54 PM on 07/09/2008

"Hopefully within 24 hours of taking office, he will introduce legislation to remove this stain on the 4th Amendment"

You mean he will do a flip-flop and then flip again? Is that a flip-flop-flip?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:34 AM on 07/10/2008

How does this help him get elected? Nobody supports this unless they benefit from it. Few voters actually know anything about it. At the very least he could have gotten kudos for taking a principled stand. Now it seems all he is focusing on is moderating himself no matter the topic, no matter how extreme "moderation" really means in any particular instance. I'm just waiting to see what's next.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:00 AM on 07/10/2008
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