Chevy Volt: Batteries Charge Fine, It's Carrying, Cooling And Using Them Them That's Not Ready

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TOM KRISHER | 08/14/08 07:01 AM | AP

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TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. — Early versions of the Chevrolet Volt's battery packs are powerful enough to run the high-stakes rechargeable car, but dozens of issues remain before General Motors Corp. can start selling the revolutionary vehicle in 2010 as planned.

The Volt's chief engineer is on a tight schedule to figure out how the car will handle the batteries' weight, dissipate their heat and mechanically transfer their power to the wheels. That's not to mention the list of issues that have nothing to do with the fact that the car plugs in to the wall for recharging.

But the 47-year-old veteran GM engineer who was recruited from a GM post in Germany to run the high-profile project is driven by knowing the entire company's future could rest on it.

"At this point, there's nothing standing in our way of continuing to do what we said we're going to do," Andrew Farah, the Volt's chief engineer, said in a recent interview with The Associated Press.

Work on the Volt, introduced as a concept car at the 2007 Detroit auto show, has taken on a more urgent pace with gasoline hovering near $4 per gallon and the U.S. auto market dramatically shifting from trucks to cars.

The car is designed to run on an electric motor powered by a battery pack. Drivers will recharge the vehicle from a standard home wall outlet.

The Volt will be able to travel 40 miles on a full charge, and a small gasoline engine will recharge the batteries to keep it rolling on longer trips. GM says the vehicle will get the equivalent of 150 miles per gallon.

But for now, as a new commercial airing during the Olympics touts the Volt as the pinnacle of GM's fuel economy improvements and hybrid lineup, Farah and hundreds of other engineers are working quickly to deal with the inevitable glitches from new technology.

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They must figure out how to keep the battery cool and adjust the car's suspension so it performs well while carrying a 400-pound battery pack.

"All those things result in lots of other mechanical parts and bits and pieces that have nothing to do with electrical energy," Farah said. "So we've had some issues there."

Simultaneously, other GM workers are testing batteries to make sure they last at least 10 years or 150,000 miles. It would cost more than $10,000 to replace them.

Other workers are making the Volt more functional, giving it the room and feel of a regular car "such that the vehicle is not just a battery on wheels," Farah said.

The early concept, a low-riding, sleek silver hatchback, was uncomfortable to sit in and not very functional, Farah said. The new five-door hatchback version more resembles a normal car, a little larger than a Honda Civic.

"It'll have a similar set of visual cues and some of the features that were on the concept car," Farah said.

Late last year, it looked like the Volt's schedule would be derailed by battery delays. Two competing battery makers _ Compact Power Inc. of Troy, Mich., which is working with parent LG Chem of Korea, and Frankfurt, Germany-based Continental Automotive Systems, which is working with GM and A123 Systems Inc. of Watertown, Mass. _ fell 10 weeks behind on delivering the power packs.

GM engineers used the time to work on the mechanical connections. Batteries arrived in January at GM's sprawling Warren, Mich., technical center, and the team has nearly erased the 10-week deficit, Farah said.

The Volt also is going through the same design issues as a new car powered by a conventional engine, Farah said.

"The program has all of those same things built in. We're just doing them faster because we have to," he said.

Although GM has promised to begin selling the Volt in a little more than two years, experts wonder if it will be ready in time, whether enough batteries will be available to sell the cars in significant numbers, and whether the cost can be reduced to make the car affordable to the masses. GM has said the Volt will cost $30,000 to $40,000, and that it expects to sell 100,000 per year starting in 2012.

While ambitious, that's still 81,000 fewer than the number of Prius gas-electric hybrids sold by Toyota last year.

Brett Smith, assistant director for manufacturing and technology at the Center for Automotive Research, said even in small volumes, the Volt is a game-changer.

"It's an entirely different technology. It's an entirely different powertrain layout. It's a huge step forward," he said Tuesday at an industry conference in Traverse City.

Smith wonders, however, whether early buyers will wind up being part of an extended test.

"This and the other vehicles that are coming out in plug-in form, are for all intents and purposes because of some timing, they are in a lot of ways prototype vehicles being put on the market to test," he said.

Much of GM's push on the Volt is designed to recapture the technology leadership image from Toyota Motor Corp., which has led the way in alternative powertrains with its Prius gasoline-electric hybrid car, Smith said.

"There's no doubt that General Motors realized the importance of positive media coverage with the Prius," he said.

Toyota also is pushing to get its plug-in electric vehicle to market in 2010, while Ford Motor Co., which is testing 20 on roads in California, says it is five years away from producing them in significant numbers.

Smith said despite uncertainties, GM has given every indication that the technology will be ready.

But between now and then, it's Farah's job to eliminate the uncertainties, banking on experience from work on GM's EV-1 electric car in the 1980s.

Farah, who started with GM in 1984, at first was reluctant to leave his German engineering assignment to lead the Volt's development. He thought it would just be an experiment with a life span like the EV-1, which GM took off the market a few years after its debut. But Farah relented after finding out how important the Volt is to GM's future.

He knew there would be early mornings and late nights away from his family, but said he gets great satisfaction from working on a car that has the potential to end America's dependence on oil and the environmental and political problems that come with it.

High gas prices already have forced a major lifestyle changes in the U.S., with people taking fewer vacations or weekend trips. Americans drove 53.2 billion fewer miles as gas prices climbed from November through June than they did over the same eight-month period a year earlier, the Federal Highway Administration said Wednesday.

The Volt, Farah said, can keep people mobile with only the adjustment of having to plug in a car at night.

"It's an opportunity to change the way we consume energy without significantly changing our lifestyle," he said.

TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. — Early versions of the Chevrolet Volt's battery packs are powerful enough to run the high-stakes rechargeable car, but dozens of issues remain before General Motors Corp. c...
TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. — Early versions of the Chevrolet Volt's battery packs are powerful enough to run the high-stakes rechargeable car, but dozens of issues remain before General Motors Corp. c...
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FTA: "The Volt's chief engineer is on a tight schedule to figure out how the car will handle the batteries' weight, dissipate their heat and mechanically transfer their power to the wheels."

So basically GM is saying "look at our new car, doesn't it look all sleek and tough? We think it looks so cool. 'Course we don't actually have the stuff that makes it go working & actually we haven't figured out how to do that yet... but it looks so COOL!"

40 miles on a charge? What's that all about, I can't even get back and forth to work on that. The generator motor is going to add what, maybe 20 miles to that if you're lucky? GM needs to step up the game on this product or its going to turn into a huge money-pit that never produces a commercially viable product.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:50 PM on 08/22/2008
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I interviewed Tony Posawatz, the vehicle line director for the Volt
at the DIAS in January here's a link to the interview
http://EVtransPortal.com/gmvolt.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:55 PM on 08/18/2008
- research I'm a Fan of research 283 fans permalink

Something wrong with the design if they need a 400lb A123 lithium battery pack to go just 40 miles. Normally electric cars get 4-7 miles per KW hour. a 10KWH A123 battery weighs only 300 lbs and should go 40-70 miles. Typical GM bad engineering and design.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:32 PM on 08/16/2008
- NL207 I'm a Fan of NL207 9 fans permalink

If you have read the literature about this design, then you'd know that GM is limiting the maximum charge to 80% of capacity and maximum discharge to 30% of capacity. Their intention is to maximize battery life. Using this regime, they forecast a battery life of 15 years. They realize that disposal of this battery is going to be expensive. GM is trying to engineer total cost of ownership to be competitive with similar gasoline powered designs. The second considreation is rapid discharge of Li-ion batteries. Ever notice how hot your cell phone gets on a long call? That is heat dissipation from an Li-ion battery that weighs about an ounce. What kind of heat do you suppose an Li-ion battery that weighs 400# can generate?

Teh 40 mile range is about right if only 1/2 of thye battery's capacity is being used.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:36 AM on 08/17/2008
- research I'm a Fan of research 283 fans permalink

Thanks. The A123 cells I am familiar with, and a 300 lb pack would be capable of 800HP pack and 600HP continuous. These cells are 50 times lower resistance. cooler and more amperage than your cell phone packs. check out the Killacycle. People have been building 40 mile electrics for 80 years, using plain old lead acid. The Volts has the worst specs of anything out there.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:11 AM on 08/17/2008
- JanP I'm a Fan of JanP 25 fans permalink

So how is the Volt really different than the Prius? it can only go 40 miles on a full battery charge. What is the effect of using heat, air conditioning or lights?

The Tesla can go 227 miles on a charge but has no on board engine to recharge the batteries. It takes 3.5 hours minimum to completly recharge from near empty.

Where is all of this electricity going to come from?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:31 AM on 08/16/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

Prius only uses its electric motors to 20 mph and is also powered by a gas powerplant like any regular car.

The VOLT is totally electric to any speed with in the range of 40 miles. Its engine is only a generator.. and supplies no drive power.

People who drive LT 40 miles per day, dont burn any gas in the Volt. The Orius always burns gas..

You plug it in at your house or opffice into a 120 socket. The cost of kilowatt power of gas versus home electric is many fold.

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:48 PM on 08/16/2008

The Prius is a really conservative parallel hybrid that can be built with fairly normal NiMH batteries. The electric aspects of its drive train are really just an electrically operated continuously variable transmission with minimal electric storage capacity.

In comparison the Volt is a real series hybrid. The problem with that is the order of magnitude higher stress on the battery subsystem. Nobody knows if Chevy can make the current generation of cells work under those harsh conditions for a decade.

I would estimate that the Volt will get 20 miles on batteries for most users. They will, however, guarantee that you can't get any more than 40 miles, unless it is rolling downhill...

:-)

And the electricity for the Volt is going to come from a regular power outlet. But it will take all night to recharge, though. Which means that most commuters, most of the time, will still need to put gasoline in.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:51 PM on 08/18/2008

This is all smoke and mirrors. Everything needed for the Volt or any other fully electric car or hybrid-electric car already exists. In fact, it has existed for over a hundred years. The first hybrid-electric car was made by Dr Ferdinand Porche in 1901! High-energy-density battery technology is not that old, although the common lead-acid cells are over a hundred years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_car#History

GM knows all about the high-tech batteries needed for the Volt. GM owned the trechnology but sold it to the oil companies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_metal_hydride_battery#Patents_and_licenses

So all this blather about not being ready for prime time is nothing but oil-soaked BS. GM sold the battery technology that would eliminate our automotive dependence on oil to the oil companies who now do not make it available. Any surprise there?

Electric cars made over a hundred years ago are still in use today and do not use petroleum! They don't wear out! and they don't use oil! That's why the corporate powers that be and the politicians sold out to them don't want this technology available to the general public.

Lies and damned lies, that's what we get from the automakers and the stooges in the media.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:20 AM on 08/16/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

You would not want to ride around in a 1901 Electric car with a top speed of 20 MPH. Cars back then did not have a/c, stereo or even sit 4. No suspension controls. anti roll, power steering, power brakes, sun roofs, power windows and power locks.

They didnt have to meet crash std or headlights. or have to support MP3, Navigation systems. Itsnt just about building cars that run on electric , its about an electric car that people driving todays ICEs will buy instead.

Jay lenos very old eletric car does not wear out because it has not had 2000 miles on it in one hundred years.

They are not using the Cadmium battaries used in the EV1 which only sat 2. They are going for a much shorter recharge time/ ten year life.

If its so easy then ask your self why Ford, Toyota and etc who are now also working on one... will take 2 -3 years longer.

When you build a car that does over 100 MPH... everything has to be a lot better including wheel bearings and brakes/suspension.....

By the way each EV1 cost GM 85K to build. They only leased them because no one could afford the short term battery replacements.

Jay Leno's eletric car runs on deep cycle golf cart battaries which are good for a couple of miles at a time... power no A/C and etc. They get replaced every 2 years.

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:13 PM on 08/16/2008
- NL207 I'm a Fan of NL207 9 fans permalink

Speaking of lies,

They battery patent GM sold to Texaco was for an Nimh design. The version in the EV-1 weighed 1147 pounds. That's right! The battery weighed over half a ton! A real efficient design for a car, right?

The battery in the Volt is a Li-ion. It weighs 400 pounds. It looks to me like GM was wise enough to realize the Nimh solution was never going to be acceptable in the marketplace and they sold the patent to derive some value from it before it expired, which it will do in 2014. If you ask me, GM gave Texaco a donkey ride. Folks like you are so busy seeing conspiracies they can't see the simple truth, even when it is right under their noses.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:44 AM on 08/17/2008
- coyote4 I'm a Fan of coyote4 70 fans permalink
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Before you get too high on your horse, remember that that patent was used to kill the Toyota EV and get something like $14million out of them

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:12 PM on 08/18/2008
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All this fuss for a 40 mile range? That's what home tinkerers are getting stuffing golf cart batteries into old Volkwagen Rabbits. Along with hobbyists, GM has been shown-up by Briggs and Stratton [the lawn mower motor folks] and 30 years ago at that! Here's a link to their prototype:

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2008/08/14/briggs-stratton-the-unlikely-great-grandpappy-to-the-prius/

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:23 PM on 08/15/2008

Well to be fair the Volt will have all up-to-date crash protection engineered into it and will have a gasoline engine on board to recharge the batteries on the fly if needed. If we were still driving 1970's style vehicles without A/C, power windows/doors/mirrors/steering/etc, crumple zones, safety cages & airbags we would surely be able to get a much greater range out of GM's battery pack.

They're late to the game, but hopefully they've smartened up in recent years. Toyota is eating them for lunch these days as it is.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:50 AM on 08/16/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

Own a golf course. Golf cart batteries last 2 years with degrading performance over that 2 years... A golf cart going slightly slower every day is one thing... not so good when you need to pass on a highway.

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:16 PM on 08/16/2008
- krocklin I'm a Fan of krocklin 30 fans permalink

Rush Limbaugh, McCain and people that think like them don't believe in any of this.
Rush said this week that America and oil are inextricably joined and there is nothing else.'"Nada. Zilch."
And this week on CSPAN a McCain "senior economic advisor" said none of this could be achieved for "20 or 30 years" and was "science fiction". Of course she wants to drill for oil, which McCain himself admitted - and the White House too - only a few months ago wasn't a real solution. But then his advisors told him to change his mind, which he did with a vengeance, propelled along by Limbaugh. Along with the Surge, oil-drilling is now the number one rallying cry for Republicans and McCain.
Don't you know it is UnAmerican to think electric car?
By the way, this bogus financial expert of McCain's uncannily and eerily looked like a Cindy McCain clone. Or a Stepford wife, like Laura and Cindy.
Ever willing to promulgate any myth that would advance the prospects of her candidate. An empty skirt as it were. Someone called in and said she was a true CONservative. According to her Obama is going to raise taxes on anyone who makes $42lk. Of course the real figure is $250k, which really hits home with the true elitists of her class.

The ranks of Auto company executives are filled with types like her.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:55 PM on 08/15/2008
- Destin I'm a Fan of Destin 55 fans permalink
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Yep, and like I've mentioned before, notice how quickly McCain was shut up about his battery prize of like $300,000?? Used that to make big headlines, hasn't said a word about it since. Since that time, however, he's been "drill, drill, drill" and all about wanting more oil. I wonder what changed his mind? Payoffs? ;)

And if you want to see some reality that is stranger than science fiction..... just compare gas mileage of today's cars, to those of the 1980's, particularly honda's, toyota's. and even Ford old wore out Ford Fiesta that in the mid 80's was geting 40+ mpg bone stock with a 4 cylinder engine and no modifications. With mods, you could literally push it upwards of 60mpg. I always wondered why Ford stopped selling those cars. ;)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:46 PM on 08/15/2008
- Destin I'm a Fan of Destin 55 fans permalink
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Correction, lol, got the Fiesta confused with the Escort. And while I realize Ford did stop making the Escort, what I meant was the more fuel efficient ones. MPG actually went down the longer they made those cars. Even using the Bush Govt's "revised MPG estimates", lmao, (what they think 2008 mpg is more than 1988 mpg? LOL) anyways, the 2001 Escort could barely hit 32mpg even using the revised formula. Compare that to a mid 80's model getting 40+ real world, as a girlfriend had one and it got a solid 43mpg highway. ;)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:08 PM on 08/15/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

Rush also said drug addicts should all be killed... then he became one...

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:17 PM on 08/16/2008
- Destin I'm a Fan of Destin 55 fans permalink
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I don't know why GM is having so much trouble. As it is, technology is already here that would allow someone to build a perpetual motion car that could run forever if parts never failed. ;) Think about it, something they don't want you to know, is that anytime the vehicle is in motion, it could be recharging itself. ;) Hell, just grab a 200+ amp alternator off your dad's R/V and put in an electric car. I'm sure that would extend the mileage. Might not completely run forever, but I think you should see now the point I'm getting at. ;)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:18 PM on 08/15/2008

I can see the point you are getting at.

It is either to

1) find some comic relief,

2) to troll, or

3) to demonstrate how badly you missed out in science class.

Needless to say that it gets worse as we go down the list...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:15 PM on 08/15/2008
- Destin I'm a Fan of Destin 55 fans permalink
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If you got a better idea, let's hear it. I bet you think hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are a joke too? And I wasn't the one who came up with the idea for electric cars, so don't be blaming me. I'm just trying to get the word out. ;)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:28 PM on 08/15/2008
- JanP I'm a Fan of JanP 25 fans permalink

Perpetual Motion is a great idea.

It is a real shame that physicists refuse to accept it and tell us it will never work. What could they possibly know that you don't?

I think this like might help you: http://www.kilty.com/pmotion.htm

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:44 AM on 08/16/2008
- Sciguy I'm a Fan of Sciguy 11 fans permalink
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"Smith wonders, however, whether early buyers will wind up being part of an extended test."

All new car models are extended tests for their owners. There are always glitches that aren't discovered until thousands of people have driven the new model hundreds of thousands of miles. That's nothing to hold back sales for - it's routine.

As for the price and the cost-effectiveness of the Volt - there are cost savings that don't show up in any of the standard analyses. It's the usual argument of how many dollars can be assigned to easing global climate change, helping polar bears to survive, easing dependence on foreign oil, etc.

I probably won't buy a Volt when they're available - I'm on a farm and I need something that can haul feed and get up to the barn. But once EVs are in the market, eventually somebody will make one that I can use - and I'll buy it ASAP.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:29 PM on 08/15/2008
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Cost savings like: Electric Engines don't require all of the maintenance and oil changes and has less moving parts. Also, Electricity is cheaper than gasoline.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:54 PM on 08/15/2008

We have a 2001 Insight with 120,000 miles on it and it was considered 'experimental' at the time as well. We've been entirely thrilled with this vehicles ownership experience. Granted Honda is well known for it's technical expertise. LLW posts correctly, electric motors generally are far less maintenance intensive than gasoline engines. They also provide gobs more torque than gas engines at low rpm's so it's likely you'll find them preferable to gas or diesel for hauling should an electrical/hybrid drivetrain of proper size be an available choice.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:02 AM on 08/16/2008
- UnbiasView I'm a Fan of UnbiasView 20 fans permalink

Has anyone done the math on how long it will take for a $50-60k Chevy Volt to pay for itself?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:10 AM on 08/15/2008

Longer than the lifetime of the car. Which is OK, for SOME buyers. But it won't be a huge marketing success. The hybrid race between Toyota and Honda was won by cars which have form and function. Honda made two bids with the Insight (all form, no function) and the Hybrid Civic (all function, no form). They both failed and the Prius which has both won.

GM is making the mistake to bet the house on all form. It is probably going to be one of their last mistakes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:00 PM on 08/15/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

Maybe the market they are/were looking for is those that will not buy a Prius because of its appearance. That is an even larger market! Larger than the 200K Prius sold per year out of ten million cars.

However if its destyled to look more like a Prius ( more functional/common)... then they will find themselves competing with the Prius selling for 10-15K less and that may be a mistake!

Might as well buy the Prius if you are Payback type of buyer...

And it looks like thats the mistake they have now made!

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:33 PM on 08/15/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

The target price is under 40K. Buyers will get a tax credit.

A suburban comuter driving 40 miles a day... at 4 cents per mile ... not bad... whats your payback on an RX8/or a Z or Mustang or a Corvette/Camero? Not the way most of the public buys cars...

I was going to buy a Volt for my retirement home in Cape Coral... never drive 20 mile trips... Have small SUV 4 wheel drive Toyota for towing my boat..

Why buy one, Because I liked the way it looked ( for the same reason I bought an RX8/Corvette and etc).. Driving is not always just about transportation.. if it was there would be no Mecedes and etc.

My wife finds a Prius ugly (thats her opinion.. it is bland)... ; We have 5 Priuses to pickup patients for our cancer centers.

She likes the way the VOLT looked.... It would be doing our part not to use any gas (helping to lower the price, for when we must use gas...like in the boat) when we dont have to and reduce CO2. Willing to pay a price for that! But I want to drive something that looks HOT!

Now with the changes in appearance... I will likely not buy one....

By the way, the current Prius technology is applied to larger vehicles even in Toyotas line up... the mileage gain is so minmal in real life driving, the payback is basically never! Performance increase only.

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:23 PM on 08/15/2008
- UnbiasView I'm a Fan of UnbiasView 20 fans permalink

I heard the target price is more like $50k . . .

"The Volt was targeted to cost around US$30,000. As of April 2008, General Motors Vice Chairman of Global Product Development Robert Lutz was quoted as saying that the realistic unsubsidised price had risen to US$48,000"

So let's go with your $45k price if you want some features, I just bought a new Nissan Altima with leather, sunroof, etc. for about $24k.

How long do you think it would take me to but $21k in gasoline to break even? Not to mention the cost of plugging the Volt in.

There is no cost benefit.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:05 PM on 08/15/2008
- JBS I'm a Fan of JBS 22 fans permalink
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That's still $20K more than a Prius costs NOW!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:39 PM on 08/15/2008
- 1will I'm a Fan of 1will 34 fans permalink

Will you still get a tax credit or is that one of the tax breaks the Dems are letting expire this year? BTW, this is a serious question not a slam on the Dems.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:02 AM on 08/16/2008
- Exusian I'm a Fan of Exusian 27 fans permalink

Talk about straw man arguments.
No car pays for itself.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:29 PM on 08/15/2008
- UnbiasView I'm a Fan of UnbiasView 20 fans permalink

I am talking about paying for itself over a gasoline powered car like a Camry or Sonata . . . that is the reason most would buy it right? More efficiency and save them money.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:07 PM on 08/15/2008
- ronito6 I'm a Fan of ronito6 4 fans permalink

Tesla motors is on the right track. All the technology in the Tesla isn't really that exotic, basically battery and motor. The range is approximately 200 miles on a charge. The battery is expected to be usable for 100K miles. Best of all no gas.

All they need is a more affordable and practical option.

Jay Leon"s Garage has a really great video of Mr Leno test driving a Tesla. Made me want one bad.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:46 AM on 08/15/2008
- jojojo I'm a Fan of jojojo 11 fans permalink

"All they need is a more affordable and practical option"

With this caveat, how do you know they're "on the right track"?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:51 AM on 08/15/2008
- UnbiasView I'm a Fan of UnbiasView 20 fans permalink

Their car is like $110k isn't it?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:16 AM on 08/15/2008

The Tesla is basically an electric Lotus Elise. It's a toy and has absolutely no proof value for the mainstream electric car market. If I decided to make a turbine powered Lotus with 0-60mph in 2.4 seconds, I would probably find more takers for it than for the Tesla. But it wouldn't prove that turbine powered cars would make any sense, whatsoever.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:59 AM on 08/15/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

I disagree... you act as if almost all buyers are payback buyers who dont care about appearance , style and acceleration... If that was the case then there would not be any market for BMWs, Merecedes, Porshes or etc.

The Tesla shows you can get that in an Electric Car. That can make the switch much more acceptable and a lot faster. Tesla is already sold out for the next 4-5 years.

Only 5% of the parts are Lotus parts by the way... its a redesign from the ground up! Its components are made for the most part in CA (ecept body panels) and it thus qualifies for a made in America product.

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:41 PM on 08/15/2008
- JanP I'm a Fan of JanP 25 fans permalink

The Tesla has 6,800 batteries. 6 of the same type batteries power most lap top ocmputers. Plugging a Tesla into your house (regardless of any special wiring) is like plugging in1,100 laptop computers!

It takes at least 3 1/2 yhours to recharge from near empty.

Can you guess what happens to the electric grid at the end of rush hour in a mjor city when 300,000 people plug in their electric cars to recharge? That's like 330 million lap top computers. Can you spell Brown Our or total failure of the grid?

What really bothers me is the religion-like fervor associated with electric cars. The numbers are all available and they are all ignored by the true believer.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:59 AM on 08/16/2008
- MrHumidty I'm a Fan of MrHumidty 2 fans permalink

I read an article how Chevy has decided to "reinvent the wheel" with the Volt, which is why it's running into profound engineering problems.

With the EV-1, they had the most successful electric vehicle ever. They should have taken that design, implemented the off-the-shelf technological improvements, worked in a backseat and put it out there. The truth is if the old EV-1 were introduced today, people would snatch it up.

How stupid are the big 3?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:29 AM on 08/15/2008

Im sure your smarter than ALL of those engineers that get paid six figures a year to figure this out.... how many years of engineering school have you had?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:29 AM on 08/15/2008
- Ozarks I'm a Fan of Ozarks 49 fans permalink
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Enough to know not to buy the Hummer company while dumping the EV. What makes you think engineers are making the decisions on what GM should produce"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:50 AM on 08/15/2008
- MrHumidty I'm a Fan of MrHumidty 2 fans permalink

The engineering short-comings of the Volt are described in detail here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/27/chevy-volt-the-barack-oba_n_109667.html

It's interesting you felt compelled to launch into a personal attack. I realize you were being sarcastic, but I AM sure I'm smarter that all those engineers, me and my degrees in physics (summa cum laude). Back in school, my fellow physics majors and I would take the occasional engineering course just to rock the curve and make the engineers sweat. Nice try with the big smack down, Mr. Mechanical Engineer, very funny.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:39 PM on 08/16/2008
- jeg I'm a Fan of jeg 17 fans permalink

Really? You think people would pay $80,000 for a 2 seater with limited cargo capacity, range, and a long recharge?

Sorry, the EV1 was a really nice concept, executed reasonably well-- but it's not the ultimate electric car.

Now, the version they produced that had a gas motor bolted on to extend the range... that was an idea, but since it wasn't Zero Emissions, it didn't go anywhere.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:13 AM on 08/15/2008
- MrHumidty I'm a Fan of MrHumidty 2 fans permalink

If you'd read my post, you'd see I wasn't talking about a two-seater. Or a long recharge.

As far as the real cost of the EV-1, I will point out that initially Toyota sold the Prius at a loss. Now there's a waiting list to get one.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:33 PM on 08/16/2008
- Destin I'm a Fan of Destin 55 fans permalink
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Dare I remind people about the RAV4-EV?? ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV

Governed top speed of 78mph, 100-120 mile range. And not only could be plugged in to the wall outlet, but in the following link below, you'll see innovative ideas that people did. The reason Toyota's super electric SUV died?? Big Oil.

"Chevron had inherited control of the worldwide patent rights for the NiMH EV-95 battery when it merged with Texaco, which had purchased them from General Motors. Chevron's unit won a $30,000,000 settlement from Toyota and Panasonic, and the production line for the large NiMH batteries was closed down and dismantled. Only smaller NiMH batteries, incapable of powering an electric vehicle or plugging in, are currently allowed by Chevron-Texaco."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peW8kl-jpHc

"RAV4-EV can be plugged into the wall, or into a rooftop solar system, can be fast-charged, can be controlled by the owner."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:16 AM on 08/15/2008
- NL207 I'm a Fan of NL207 9 fans permalink

If this patent had such great commercial value, why do you suppose GM offered to sell it to Texaco in the first place? Why didn't they simply make a fortune using it themselves?

Clearly, GM has not abandoned its efforts to develop altrernative fuel vehicles, as evidenced by both the Volt and its extensive hydrogen fuel cell program. Could it be that this is just a red herring designed to feed the moonbats and deceive the ignorant?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:45 AM on 08/15/2008
- Destin I'm a Fan of Destin 55 fans permalink
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I don't think they had a choice. ;) Remember, we live in a capitalistic society, any public company can be bought out for any reason, even against the sellers wishes. That's why there's such things as "hostile takeovers". And who would want to suppress the technology? Big Oil.

And a better question you should be asking, is why Chevron-Texaco won't allow batteries to be made that COULD power an electric car? I'm not the one fueling a conspiracy, they are.

And ask why, McCain was suddenly shut up about his idea for a big prize to someone who could come up with some battery innovation. Notice how he said that, grabbed big headlines, and then suddenly he hasn't mentioned it since? Why aren't you asking about that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:48 PM on 08/15/2008
- Russycle I'm a Fan of Russycle 2 fans permalink

Electric cars require a lot less maintenance than ICE cars. Most braking is handled by the flywheel/generator, so brakes last almost forever. Electric motors are extremely reliable and require no tuning and minimal maintenance. I'm sure GM bean counters did the math and realized that if electric cars were successful it would hurt their bottom line, they make a LOT of profit selling parts. Now that GM is fighting to survive it's a different story, they have to take a chance.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:12 PM on 08/15/2008

What about the RAV4-EV? It's a poorly designed electric vehicle with little to no utility value. A collector's item, if you want.

The reason that it died is the price. Nobody wants a vehicle with such a poor design for that much money.

The batteries are available, by the way. They are being used in electric buses. Toyota and Panasonic could have worked around the patent easily. And they did, in the Prius. But what for for the RAV4? If the product sells poorly, why bother?

The fast charging a myth, by the way. It still takes hours to charge the car. Battery fast charging as it is done for model airplanes is done in 20 minutes. The batteries survive that a couple dozen times, then you buy a fresh pack for a hundred bucks. Would you like to do that with a $20,000 car battery?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:12 PM on 08/15/2008
- Destin I'm a Fan of Destin 55 fans permalink
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Hmmm, poorly designed and yet, hailed as the best electric vehicle, and an SUV at that, that was ever made by some who owned both those and the EV-1, and every bit the rival and exceeded even the EV-1, and you call it poorly designed? It had 3 times the range of what will be the Volt. And so successful the Oil companies stepped in, bought up the "fuel" for it and quashed it all. And you call it poorly designed? I'll tell you something that is poorly designed, oil rigs for ocean drilling. They can't even withstand a moderate gust of wind. That's pretty lame. But anyways, what about it's price? Look at the first compact disc player that was sold in Florida back in the 1980's for $15,000. Now you can go to any wal-mart and buy one dirt cheap, hell, even DVD players are dropping down to $50 range for even mid-range quality models.

Of course the damn things are gonna be a little expensive to start with. But once production ramps up, price goes down, right? Or are you saying that whole supply/demand argument was a fraud to begin with?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:12 PM on 08/15/2008

If this goes into production, will JM give GM the battery prize money? That would be a big checkmark on his energy plan to-do list.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:50 AM on 08/15/2008
- GotRights I'm a Fan of GotRights 7 fans permalink

GM might not own patents to the battery technology. The batteries are being developed by other companies.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:06 AM on 08/15/2008
- JanP I'm a Fan of JanP 25 fans permalink

$300,000 is big money when it costs a billion to develop a new car and put it into production?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:03 PM on 08/16/2008
- ejay579 I'm a Fan of ejay579 9 fans permalink
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53.2 billion fewer miles driven over an 8 month period? Is this a misprint?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:36 AM on 08/15/2008
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Nope not a misprint. We drove almost 10 billion miles less in just May alone.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-ostertag/todays-wonderful-news-for_b_115918.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:06 AM on 08/15/2008
- JanP I'm a Fan of JanP 25 fans permalink

10 billion miles less? With 243 million vehicles in the country, that comes out to a whopping 41 miles less per vehicle in the month of May!

This is meaningful when the average vehicle is driven about 1000 miles a month?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:04 PM on 08/16/2008
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