Russia: Georgia can 'forget' regaining provinces

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DAVID NOWAK and CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA | August 14, 2008 11:11 PM EST | AP

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Kliment Bestaev, foreground right, mourns during the wake for his brother Vazha Bestaev in the town of Ardon 30 km south of Vladikavkaz, Russia, Thursday, Aug. 14, 2008. Vazha Bestaev died in recent fighting in Tskhinvali on Aug.12.2008. (AP Photo/Mikhail Metzel)

TBILISI, Georgia — The foreign minister of Russia said Thursday that Georgia could "forget about" getting back its two breakaway provinces, and the former Soviet republic remained on edge as Russia sent tank columns to search out and destroy Georgian military equipment.

Uncertainty about Russia's intentions and back-and-forth charges clouded the conflict two days after Russia and Georgia signaled acceptance of a French-brokered cease-fire, and a week after Georgia's crackdown on the two provinces drew a Russian military response.

Diplomats focused on finalizing a fragile cease-fire between the two nations and clear the way for Russian withdrawal. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was heading Friday for Georgia to press the president to sign the deal.

Georgian officials accused Russia of sending a column of tanks and other armored vehicles toward Kutaisi, the second-largest city in Georgia, then said the convey stopped about 35 miles out.

"We have no idea what they're doing there, why the movement, where they're going," Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze said in a telephone briefing. "One explanation could be they are trying to rattle the civilian population."

The U.S. said a move toward Kutaisi would be a matter of great concern, but two defense officials told The Associated Press the Pentagon did not detect any major movement by Russia troops or tanks. There was no immediate response from Russia itself.

"I think the world should think very carefully about what is going on here," Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said. "We need to stop everything that can be stopped now."

The Russian president met in the Kremlin with the leaders of the provinces, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, a clear sign Moscow could absorb the regions even though the territory is internationally recognized as being within Georgia's borders. And Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov issued a blunt message to Georgia and the world that appeared to challenge President Bush's demand a day earlier that Russia must respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia.

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"One can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity because, I believe, it is impossible to persuade South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree with the logic that they can be forced back into the Georgian state."

The White House said Thursday that the U.S. position was unchanged and dismissed Lavrov's remark as bluster. Defense Secretary Robert Gates warned Russia was in danger of hurting relations with the U.S. "for years to come" but said he did not see "any prospect" for the use of American military force in Georgia.

As the military and diplomatic battles played out, relief planes swooped into Tbilisi with tons of supplies for the estimated 100,000 people uprooted by the fighting.

U.S. officials said their two planes carried cots, blankets, medicine and surgical supplies _ but the Russians insinuated that the United States, a Georgia ally, might have sent in military aid as well. U.S. officials rejected the claim.

Even as the relief rolled in, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon warned the fighting and lawlessness was keeping it from reaching large parts of Georgia. In some places, relief officials were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of refugees.

"This is too much. It is all too much," said Manana Karelidze, a 50-year-old retired accountant, who said she had waited for days at the Department of Refugees in the Georgian capital for registration and dry pasta. There were hundreds like her.

Russian troops spent the day searching selected cities, forests and fields for military equipment left behind by Georgian forces.

The Georgian ambassador to the United States, H.E. Vasil Sikharulidze, said Russia was employing "scorched-earth" tactics _ destroying Georgian commercial and military infrastructure and burning down religious sites beyond the conflict area of South Ossetia.

"What defenses does Georgia have? Because of the cease-fire agreement, which Russia has not honored, Georgian troops are being moved to organize a defensive line 10 kilometers (six miles) away from Tbilisi," he said.

Sikharulidze said an attack on Kutaisi would be a "catastrophe,"

On the edge of the strategically important city of Gori, Georgian soldiers pointed their weapons at Russian forces, and explosions and small arms fire broke out in the distance.

Georgia claimed Russians had left the oil port city of Poti, but hours later some forces were still there.

Georgia also accused Russia of using short-range missiles in Poti and Gori, showing reporters purported images of shrapnel. There was no immediate response from Russia.

Russian and Georgian troops briefly patrolled Gori, but relations between the two sides broke down and the Georgians left. At least 20 explosions were heard later near Gori, along with small-arms fire.

It was not clear whether it was renewed fighting or the disposal of ordnance from a nearby Georgian military base. Russia said its troops were there to establish contact with the civilian administration and take over abandoned military depots.

Gori, battered by Russian bombing over the week, lies on Georgia's main east-west road only 60 miles west of Tbilisi. AP Television News footage showed Russian troops in and near Gori, and Georgia said it was checking the area for mines.

An AP Television News crew heard explosions at a military base in the western city of Senaki and were told by officials from both Russia and Georgia that the Russians were destroying ordnance. Dozens of Russian armored vehicles and troops later set up for the night under camouflage on the main road from Senaki north to Zugdidi.

The same APTN crew followed Russian troops on the outskirts of Poti as they searched a field and a forest at an old Soviet military base for possible Georgian military equipment.

Georgia's coast guard said Russian troops burned four Georgian patrol boats in Poti on Wednesday, then returned Thursday to loot and destroy the coast guard's radar and other equipment.

Another APTN camera crew saw Russian soldiers and military vehicles parked inside the Georgian government's elegant gated residence in the western town of Zugdidi. Some of the Russian soldiers wore blue peacekeeping helmets, others wore green camouflage helmets, all were heavily armed. Other Russian troops patrolled the city.

"We don't want them here. What we need is friendship and good relations with the Russian people," Ygor Gegenava, an elderly Zugdidi resident, told the APTN crew.

In London, BP PLC said it resumed pumping natural gas Thursday through one Georgia pipeline, but two oil pipelines in Georgia remain closed.

The Russian General Prosecutor's office said it had formally opened a genocide probe into Georgian treatment of South Ossetians. Georgia sued Russia in international court, alleging murder, rape and mass expulsions of Georgians in both provinces.

___

Correspondents David Nowak, Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili and Matti Friedman in Tbilisi, Georgia; Mansur Mirovalev in Tskhinvali, Georgia; Jim Heintz and Vladimir Isachenkov in Moscow; Alexander Higgins in Geneva; Carley Petesch in New York; Matthew Lee traveling with Rice; and Lolita C. Baldor in Washington contributed to this report.

TBILISI, Georgia — The foreign minister of Russia said Thursday that Georgia could "forget about" getting back its two breakaway provinces, and the former Soviet republic remained on edge as Rus...
TBILISI, Georgia — The foreign minister of Russia said Thursday that Georgia could "forget about" getting back its two breakaway provinces, and the former Soviet republic remained on edge as Rus...
 
 

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- TXFF5000 See Profile I'm a Fan of TXFF5000 permalink

There is now talk about how Russia- feeling full of itself - might invade the rest of Europe and that nobody (not even the US) would be able to stop them. If Russia wants to pursue this cocky tough guy attitude of threatening other countries with invasion, if they don't do what Moscow wants, it is ignoring the fact that the inhabitants of other nations can still get revenge on Russia if Russia attacks them.

If Russia invades other countries I think Russia can look forward to terrorism on its own soil for 30 years. We saw how terrified the Russians were by the Chechens wanting revenge on Russian soil and Chechnya was a tiny country. It Russia goes into much larger countries like Ukraine and Poland I think the people (who generally are peaceful) would definitely consider giving the Russians a little payback this time on their own Russian Soil. Not to mention the fact East European countries have experience resisting occupation.

It just a matter of time before you hear about Georgians destroying infrastructure in Russian land the way Russians are destroying infrastructure in Georgia now.

The Russian population is also old and dying. The Russian population is at 139 million and loses about a million people a year. The average age of a Russian man is only 57. Therefore Russia is becoming severly strained in having the manpower to defend Russia's huge territory.


Nazis & Soviet Russians are GOOD BUDDIES

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=11401983

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:51 PM on 08/17/2008
- V_is_for_Vendetta See Profile I'm a Fan of V_is_for_Vendetta permalink

"TXFF5000 Posted 04:51 PM on 08/17/2008
There is now talk about how Russia- feeling full of itself - might invade the rest of Europe and that nobody (not even the US) would be able to stop them...."

May I ask where u saw that. I read Russian/Ukr - I have yet to hear someone
stating "getting" Europe. Don't think all of us here are naive.,

"TXFF5000 Posted 04:51 PM on 08/17/2008
The Russian population is also old and dying. The Russian population is at 139 million and loses about a million people a year. The average age of a Russian man is only 57. Therefore Russia is becoming severly strained in having the manpower to defend Russia's huge territory."

Links Please? provide a link referring to Russia's death rate - SPIN ??

In the other hand the uSA has a larger population, yes, but the minority population
which is increasingly Hispanic will yearn for other dreams.... can you say

AZTLAN.

FYI:
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/population/012496.html
U.S. Census Bureau - August 14, 2008
Minorities, now roughly one-third of the U.S. population, are expected to become the majority in 2042, with the nation projected to be 54 percent minority in 2050. By 2023, minorities will comprise more than half of all children.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:49 AM on 08/18/2008
- mnkors See Profile I'm a Fan of mnkors permalink

Saakashvilli has been hysterical during numerous interviews he gives Western mass media since he was so strongly assured by the USA that the military support will be ready in case he starts his (mis)adventure. He formed this grandiose illusion of the Greater Georgia, nurtured by Condi and Cheney , that now gives cognitive dissonance to this former New York lawyer. He was played for a fool. Welcome to the neocon world, Georgian fellow. Never mind that thousands have had their lives broken¦
There is no accident that US had sent hundreds of marines to Georgia to take part in military exercises just few weeks before the Georgian assault on a peaceful city of Tskhinvalli. And of course, Israeli military advisors and weaponry were at hand before Saacashvilli ordered the bombardment.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:58 PM on 08/17/2008
- V_is_for_Vendetta See Profile I'm a Fan of V_is_for_Vendetta permalink

" mnkors -Saakashvilli has been hysterical during numerous interviews he gives Western mass media since he was so strongly assured by the USA that the military support will be ready in case he starts his (mis)adventure. Posted 03:58 PM on 08/17/2008"

Frankly he has probably quite of bit of support both obvious and maybe blackOps and PsyOps
assistance.

This is how far world politics have evolved since 1989.... end of Cold War.
Its funny, but the one-time US global paymaker Milosevic was'nt in the good with the puppet
handlers. He got the opposite treatment of Saakashvilli, no assistance of any kind as Yugoslavia
was bombed AND attcked by coalition of Euro countries.

Saakashvilli even received aid in website activities... websites for Georgian presiden & other government functions have received aid from Poland and Estonia in setting up shop for new Georgian sites hosted in other locations..
See:
Cyberwar unsurprisingly rages in Georgia
http://blog.wired.com/sterling/2008/08/cyberwar-unsurp.html
Estonia, Google Help 'Cyberlocked' Georgia (Updated)
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/civilge-the-geo.html

REMARKABLE.

I bet Milosevic ..did'nt get that type of support from Russia as his country was being bombed

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:11 AM on 08/18/2008
- coldcanuckinwhite See Profile I'm a Fan of coldcanuckinwhite permalink

Sack-arsch-willi knows that time is of the essence and backfires are certain.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:39 PM on 08/17/2008
- claudius See Profile I'm a Fan of claudius permalink

http://view.break.com/335268 - Watch more free videos

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:22 PM on 08/17/2008
- BillionsofBurningSouls See Profile I'm a Fan of BillionsofBurningSouls permalink

It is obvious to me that Russia taking these two provinces is direct and nearly immediate retalliation for the West granting Kosovo indepedence from Serbia. Has everyone completely forgotten what close allies the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia were through many decades and still are today in their more 'compact' forms (Russia and Serbia).because of the last 7 years of skyrocketing oil prices Russia's economy has doubled and since they never reduced their nuclear and biological arsenals, they are back at the table of power in global politics. And, since they Bushes have reduced our standing and military, what can the USA do? As soon as Kosovo was given independence (taken from Serbia in their eyes), this process in Georgia began immediately. 'You take ours, we take yours.' Am I wrong?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:39 PM on 08/17/2008
- Garvagh See Profile I'm a Fan of Garvagh permalink

Vladimir Putin and other Russian leaders made a valid point, with regard to the independence for the Serbian province of Kossovo, that if the disaffected minority Albanians could detatch a Serbian province, what would be done about South Ossetia and Abkhazia where a similar situation obtained?

Serbia had tried to crush the Albanian insurgents using military means, and this was counter-productive in the extreme. Regrettably, Georgia made the same mistake, in South Ossetia, when Russian soldiers were known to be in the field of fire!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:00 PM on 08/17/2008
- getz_u See Profile I'm a Fan of getz_u permalink

Is Pres. Saakashvilli on CNN's payroll?He seems to be appearing on every news program on the channel.He won't appear on FOX because he forcefully shut down a TV station in Tblisi that was a sister concern on Rupert Murdoch.The Pres. is beginning to sound more and more insane.He now claims that his country is being bombarded with missiles that have the words "Death to USA" inscribed on them.Yesterday he trashed Pres. Gorbachev ,questioning his Nobel prize.He also goes on to say that the Russians are raping,looting and setting fire to homes in the Georgian country side.He even sya sthat the Russian army is stealing 'Toilet seats'!!! Really sounds like baloney to me.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:38 AM on 08/15/2008
- coldcanuckinwhite See Profile I'm a Fan of coldcanuckinwhite permalink

CNN IS SO PATHETIC.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:41 PM on 08/17/2008
- adzeman See Profile I'm a Fan of adzeman permalink

Not appearing on Fox makes him sound quite sane, I wouldn't trust that nest of vipers to get his message our correctly either. Russia just annexed a large part of his country. The promises of support from McCain and bush turned out to be lies. I think he has reason to be upset.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:03 PM on 08/15/2008
- rmreddicks See Profile I'm a Fan of rmreddicks permalink

They're probably tossing infants out of incubators. Well anyway, we'll probably be hearing something like that sooner or later. Life in the Goebellian west.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:27 AM on 08/15/2008
- jwod See Profile I'm a Fan of jwod permalink

My generation's understanding of Russia was that it did bad things 'cause it was run by Communists. It should have appeared to us that Russia does bad things, ( Tsars to Commies to Putin) because it's big, powerful and Russian. Whining is not effective opposition but war needn't be.

Russia like in Hungary , and Czechoslovakia, is viewing Georgia as a satellite, not a real country. It got away with it in Chechnya because Chechnya is part of Russia and, like in our Civil War, a country's territorial integrity should be honored. Russia's response (to Georgian hegemony over South Ossetia and Abkhasia, universally accepted - even when it was Georgia SSR), is opportunistic, encouraged I'm sure by the empty rhetoric of our historic responses to Russian suppression of democracy.

Georgia (and like Russia vis a vis Chechnya) has the sole right to determine whether its two provinces shall be governed by Tbilisi. Russia should not be permitted to decide that. But seeing into Putin's heart doesn't help if history is ignored, especially while we're tied down in Iraq..

But if Russia had thought we might do something, they might have bethought this clumsy act of aggression. Georgia (Stalin's birthplace ) may to Russia be as Kosovo is to Serbia (the site of an important event in their history). Russia vehemently opposes Kosovo seceding from Serbia. We don't have time anymore to let idiots run the US government. The adults have to take over. If only the children will let them

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:12 AM on 08/15/2008
- dkm See Profile I'm a Fan of dkm permalink

I'm not real clear on how Russian behavior in the past has been qualitatively different from US behavior in the last eight years. The Russians had their arbitrary imprisonment of "enemies of the state" and we have our arbitrary imprisonment of "terrorists" in Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Guantanamo and countless other sites both known and hidden. The Russians were famous for ignoring international treaties and we have totally ignored everything from the Geneva Conventions to the UN prohibition against aggressive war to the ABM treaties to the treaty concerning extending nuclear aid to nonsignees to ... The Russians were famous for their abuse of human rights and we have done everything from imprisoning people for peaceful protests to forbidding protests within a mile of Bush or Cheney to spying without a warrant, even without a reason, to roundups based on ethnic group holding thousands of people without charge for months and not even telling their families where they were to giving the president the "right" to designate anyone who opposes him to be an "enemy combatant" (whatever that means) to be held indefinitely without charge meanwhile being tortured for the pure fun of it. Face it, guys. For the US to complain about Russia's behavior in Georgia is pure hypocrisy and all it does is shine a light on our own misbehavior for the world to see. Russia, at least, had the excuse that Georgia launched a military attack on its citizens. We didn't even have that excuse.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:21 PM on 08/17/2008
- leduck See Profile I'm a Fan of leduck permalink

and maybe well we're at it..., we can allow serbia to reabsorb kosovo
their beloved ancestoral homeland

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:20 PM on 08/17/2008
- rmreddicks See Profile I'm a Fan of rmreddicks permalink

You need to think and research a little deeper on some of that. It's good that you tried but it doesn't hold up.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:32 AM on 08/15/2008
- jwod See Profile I'm a Fan of jwod permalink

Oh yeah, I forgot (an age thing). Robert Littell's 'The Czech Black Book", a day-today underground record of the last time (1968) Russia decided to discipline a wayward satellite tempted by democracy might help to focus one's attention. The book was prepared by the Institute of History of the Czechoslovak Academy of Sciences and edited by Littell as publication in Czechoslovakia then was problematic. I know Republicans just don't get it but overtime most Americans (including Democrats) were easily led into believing that if only a Mr. Gorbachev would "tear down this wall" it would be freedom, democracy and capitalism for all.

Like the absence of universal flower tossing by "freed" Iraqis, or peace and prosperity flowing from Abrams tank guns in Baghdad, and other unfulfilled promises of desparate politicians, we are now frustratingly forced to experience our own failure to understand the world we live in. We have worked hard for so long not to have to think hard. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:38 PM on 08/16/2008
- jwod See Profile I'm a Fan of jwod permalink

My research? Not needed if one lived long enough in the presence of and observing the Russian bear, and travelled in the Soviet bloc, and served in the US Army along the East German border with atomic weapons aimed at the Meinigen gap (where Russian tanks were expected), and attended classes in Russian history and language, with one of the Romanov princes (Rostislav (Rusty) Romanov), and read dozens of books ranging from Russian literature and drama, to its history. Weidle's 'Russia:Absent or Present', Seton-Watson's 'The Decline of Imperial Russia', Charque's 'A Short History of Russia', Salisbury's 'Russia', Berdyaev's 'The Origin of Russian Communism', Marcuse's 'Soviet Marxism' are of particular interest and assistance in understanding the problem. Also the biography entitled 'Khruschev' and books about anarchism in 19th century Russia, the Revolution, the Kerensky government, WWI and contemporary journals regarding the post Soviet period help one understand that our view of the Red Peril from 1914 to 1989 obscured what we really should have been contemplating- the essential Russian-ness of our adversary. It is not helpful to us to misread an opponent. But given our aversion to nuance and complexity of thought, it's no wonder where we are. My only question is what was Condi doing? She's the Russian scholar in residence in the administration!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:10 PM on 08/16/2008
- dogbane See Profile I'm a Fan of dogbane permalink

I disagree. jwod's analysis is right on the money. Would you care to pick it apart, or are you content to let your condescension rest?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:44 AM on 08/15/2008
- MikeLee7125 See Profile I'm a Fan of MikeLee7125 permalink

I'm being to think that Saakashvili might be really off his rocker. There has to be a review of what happened after the dust settles. First he orders his army into South Ossetia. Either we didn't tell him Russia had its tanks massed nearby, or he completely ignored us. Then in the middle of a war, he decides to go to the most strategically important city in Georgia to hold a press conference, instead of getting that place evacuated and defended. Now he's writing op eds in the WaPo, holding press conference after press conference, for all I know he's posting to this article right now. Like he's trying to spin his way out of this mess when he's got a real war to deal with.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:12 PM on 08/14/2008
- rmreddicks See Profile I'm a Fan of rmreddicks permalink

He realizes just how bankrupt his position is. Off his rocker, maybe not. A rash heeding of bad advice, maybe so. I guess that begs the off his rocker idea. I'm thinking there has to be a larger deal to this. The Poland move? Ukraine? Was it just a test? Not (much like everyone else in this country) being privy to our dear leader's minions ideas, I can only speculate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:36 AM on 08/15/2008
- Harod See Profile I'm a Fan of Harod permalink

i think he is appealing to the world for help, usually how these things end is when the shooting stops the mass murders begins and if the Russians get by with this who is next?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:03 AM on 08/15/2008
- mostlybluedot See Profile I'm a Fan of mostlybluedot permalink

And the idiot started the whole thing. What did he expect?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:47 PM on 08/14/2008
- coldcanuckinwhite See Profile I'm a Fan of coldcanuckinwhite permalink

He should never have messed with Bad Vlad lol

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:54 PM on 08/17/2008
- Harod See Profile I'm a Fan of Harod permalink

The russians started the rebeling and when the Georgians responded the they used it as a excuse to invade the entire nation, im sure they will use a similar excuse to cross the Englsh Channel..

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:06 AM on 08/15/2008