Georgia President: We'll Never Give Up Breakaway Provinces

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CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA | August 17, 2008 11:56 PM EST | AP

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An aid worker looks on as residents wait for humanitarian aid distributed from a bus in Gori, northwest of the Georgian capital Tbilisi, Sunday, Aug. 17, 2008. Russian military authorities issued a flurry of conflicting reports Sunday about whether Russian troops had begun to pull out of South Ossetia, one of Georgia's two separatist provinces. (AP Photo/Darko Bandic)

GORI, Georgia — Russia's president promised to start withdrawing forces from positions in Georgia on Monday, but suggested they could stay in the breakaway region at the heart of the fighting that has reignited Cold War tensions.

Top American officials said Washington would rethink its relationship with Moscow after its military drive deep into its much smaller neighbor and called for a swift Russian withdrawal.

"I think there needs to be a strong, unified response to Russia to send the message that this kind of behavior, characteristic of the Soviet period, has no place in the 21st century," Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Sunday.

But neither Gates nor Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would be specific about what punitive actions the U.S. or the international community might take.

Bolstered by Western support, Georgia's leader vowed never to abandon its claim to territory now firmly in the hands of Russia and its separatist allies, even though he has few means of asserting control. His pledge, echoed by Western insistence that Georgia must not be broken apart, portends further tension over separatist South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

In Gori, a strategic central city in the small former Soviet republic, there were signs of a looser Russian grip _ and scenes of desperation as Georgians crowded around aid vehicles and grasped for loaves of bread.

Georgia hit the Russia-backed separatist region of South Ossetia with a massive barrage on Aug. 7, and Russian troops rolled in, advancing far into the Caucasus Mountain nation and raising fears of a long-term occupation of a country at the center of a power struggle between a resurgent Russia and the West.

The troops would leave, a Russian lawmaker said, "sooner or later."

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"But how much time it will take, it depends, definitely, on how Georgians will continue to behave," said the lawmaker, Konstantin Kosachev, chairman of a Russian parliament foreign affairs committee.

Rice, who is flying to Europe on Monday to talk with NATO allies about what message the West should send to Russia, said Russia can't use "disproportionate force" against its neighbor and still be welcomed into the halls of international institutions.

"It's not going to happen that way," she said. "Russia will pay a price."

French President Nicolas Sarkozy warned Russia's president of "serious consequences" in Moscow's relations with the European Union if Russia does not comply with the cease-fire accord.

Later, Sarkozy said in an opinion article published on Le Figaro newspaper's Web site that if Russia did not "rapidly and totally" follow the pullout specified in the cease-fire, he would "have to call an extraordinary meeting of the Council of the European Union to decide what consequences to draw."

Medvedev had told Sarkozy that Russian troops would begin pulling back on Monday, headed toward South Ossetia. He stopped short of promising they would return to Russia.

The New York Times, citing anonymous U.S. officials who were familiar with intelligence reports, reported Sunday that the Russian military moved missile launchers into South Ossetia on Friday.

The U.S. officials told the Times that Russia deployed several SS-21 missile launchers to positions north of Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital. That would put the missiles within range of Georgia's capital, Tbilisi, the Times reported on its Web site.

The EU-backed cease-fire agreement calls for Georgian and Russian troops to withdraw to the positions they held before fighting broke out Aug. 7.

But Medvedev's silence on South Ossetia has fueled fears that Russia could annex the region, which _ like Abkhazia _ broke from Georgia government control in the 1990s and has declared independence. Getting Abkhazia alone would increase the length of Russia's Black Sea coast by more than 25 percent.

"Georgia will never give up a square kilometer of its territory," Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili told a news conference alongside Germany's Angela Merkel, the latest Western leader to visit Tbilisi and offer support for the country he has led on a pro-Western path, seeking to shake off a history of domination by Moscow.

"I expect a very fast, very prompt withdrawal of Russian troops out of Georgia," Merkel said in a courtyard at Saakashvili's official residence. She reiterated a Western promise that Georgia will eventually join NATO, but said she could not say when that would happen.

As Merkel spoke, Russian tanks and troops continued to control a wide swath of Georgia, including the main highway running through the country, the strategic central city of Gori, the western city of Senaki and the Senaki air base.

On Sunday evening, Russian armored personnel carriers and tanks carrying military hardware traveled away from Senaki on a road that leads to Zugdidi, a city just outside Abkhazia _ possibly pulling out, though their destination was unclear.

In the western town of Zugdidi, residents took to the streets earlier Sunday to protest the Russian presence in Georgia. Demonstrators including politicians and Orthodox priests carried religious icons and sprinkled holy water as they marched, some holding red-and-white Georgian flags of pictures of Saakashvili.

"We are waiting for more support from other countries because this is not a war between Russian and Georgia, it's a war between civilization and barbarism," said Eldar Kbernadze, a member of Georgia's parliament who was among the protesters.

Saakashvili alleged that Russian forces, far from withdrawing, had moved closer to the capital Saturday and vowed to defend Tbilisi if necessary. He also accused Russia of ethnic cleansing and said Georgia would not accept the future presence of Russian peacekeepers.

A large banner hanging Sunday in front of the Parliament building in central Tbilisi read: "No war, Russia go home."

On the outskirts of the city, hundreds of Georgian refugees tended to children, tried to wash near open taps and sought shelter in tents Sunday in a makeshift refugee camp.

Georgia's government minister for refugees, Koba Subeliani, said there were 140,000 displaced people in Tbilisi and the surrounding area.

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon is considering sending over several high-ranking U.N. officials, including monitors and a top official with the U.N. refugee agency, according to a U.S. official who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information.

Elsewhere, the Russian checkpoint at the entrance to Gori was less fortified than in previous days. In the city, where buildings were blackened by fire from fighting or bombing, there was a light presence of Russian troops and a few tanks.

Marc Baldan, a surgeon from the International Committee of the Red Cross, which delivered some medicine and food in Gori, said the city's hospital was functioning and that drugs for heart disease, hypertension and diabetes, unavailable during the conflict, had been delivered.

"Each day looks better," he said. "But we still do not have the full picture."

But as clusters of people gathered by aid vehicles in hopes of getting loaves of bread, others had even deeper worries.

"I do not know where my children are and you can imagine how I feel about it," one Georgian woman named Manana, who did not give her last name for fear of reprisals, told an AP television crew in Gori.

___

Associated Press writers David Nowak, Steve Gutterman and Jill Lawless in Moscow, and Michael Fischer and Matti Friedman in Tbilisi, Georgia, and Deb Riechmann in Crawford, Texas contributed to this report.

GORI, Georgia — Russia's president promised to start withdrawing forces from positions in Georgia on Monday, but suggested they could stay in the breakaway region at the heart of the fighting th...
GORI, Georgia — Russia's president promised to start withdrawing forces from positions in Georgia on Monday, but suggested they could stay in the breakaway region at the heart of the fighting th...
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- randyjet I'm a Fan of randyjet 26 fans permalink

The UN Charter and the Helsinki Treaty banned what NATO did to Serbia in breaking off Kosovo which had historically been Serbian. The same is NOT true of Ossetia. The US and NATO have broken their promises to Russia that it would not expand to their borders as well. So I think it is stupid to say that Russia is the aggressor given the past history of NATO. The US had NO problems bombing auto factories, TV stations, bridges, trains, and the Chinese embassy in Serbia, yet they say that the RUSSIANS have used disproportionate force? THAT is funny is a bad sort of way.

It is absurd also to state that Russia has no right to make war against Geogia after they attacked their troops. Do people think that the US was wrong in invading Mexico after they attacked US forces in Brownsville? How about the Japanese? Think the US just should have smashed the Japanese Navy and called it a day? Get real people. When you start a war, you don't get to say when it ends unless you win.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:21 PM on 08/19/2008
- Chavez08 I'm a Fan of Chavez08 58 fans permalink
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It appears Condi may have been telling little white lies to Saskavilli during the "3am phone calls". U.S. is in no position to take on the Soviets, militarily or diplomatically and allies like Poland won't be dumb enough to get involved in this mess, they remember what the Bear is capable of when pissed.

I'd bet Bush/Cheney wanted any kind of (badly needed) trophy for this miserable excuse for a presidency and they thought they'd bait Georgia to see if they could pull off a last minute land grab. They gambled, lost and their banker puppet in Georgia will pay the price.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:22 PM on 08/18/2008
- BuyRubles I'm a Fan of BuyRubles 2 fans permalink

Russians aren't Soviets.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:15 PM on 08/18/2008

By reading western media articles on this war, you can smell the anti Russia, pro neocon bias. It's all about the US/NATO Empire. Most Americans couldn't find Georgia, USA on a map and Georgia, the country, forget about it. Our 2 presidential candidates are fighting over the moronic 5% of the voters who are still "undecided" and our leaders make embarassing and hypocritical statements that they can't back up. Russia is holding all the cards here, as was the United States when it came to Kosovo. By the way, Kosovo is recognized by 40 or so countries of the 192 that make up this planet, most of those 40 are US puppets. Russia has every right to recognize and keep these territories because the United States set a prescedent in the Balkans. Read UN Res 1244, it never grants Kosovo independance. We granted it to them, but it might have something to do with the 1000 acre NATO base there.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:00 AM on 08/18/2008
- danoj I'm a Fan of danoj 17 fans permalink

Good luck with keeping those provinces. The EU and Nato aren't going to do squat about Russia, and is pobably going to negoatiate those provinces to them. Why you ask? It's almost winter, and Russia controls most of Europes oil and natural gas. So unless they want to freeze this winter....­..

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:39 PM on 08/17/2008
- mergina I'm a Fan of mergina 84 fans permalink
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If the Russians are not careful, they are going to get their Bolshevik arses kicked. They are not infallible. They are flesh and blood with many army members too young to remember what happened to them in Afghanistan.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:37 PM on 08/17/2008

Wow, Big talk. Russians are so scared. Got anything to back it up, other than hot gas ?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:23 AM on 08/18/2008

mergina, I guess we never learned anything from Vietnam and we are the ones now stuck in Afhganistan.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:02 AM on 08/18/2008
- Nicolaus I'm a Fan of Nicolaus 9 fans permalink

Shouldn't the Georgian President (labeled as a "Gambler" in Der Speigle by former Chancellor Schroeder) have given a thought to the refugees he now CLAIMS are flooding his capital? Or did he learn his handlers lesson so perfectly that planning takes place after fighting?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:27 PM on 08/17/2008
- Jared137 I'm a Fan of Jared137 3 fans permalink

So Georgia can keep the S. Ossetians in line by mowing over their woman and children with tanks? I still back Russia. Sad altogether, but Georgians cannot behave this way and not expect some type of retaliation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:14 PM on 08/17/2008
- notepad2 I'm a Fan of notepad2 3 fans permalink

But Putin can keep Chechnya, right?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:50 PM on 08/17/2008
- research I'm a Fan of research 257 fans permalink

can you stay on topic?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:08 PM on 08/17/2008
- Jen326 I'm a Fan of Jen326 8 fans permalink

Those "breakaway provinces" were not Georgia's to begin with. The citizens of both those areas have their own currencies and governments and have been issues RUSSIAN passports since 1992.

Georgia started this fight and is keeping it going. It's the military-i­ndustrial-­media complex, with the Bush administration & McCain leading the way, who are trying to convince us that Russia is the villain here.

Don't fall for it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:36 PM on 08/17/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

According to the international community, they are part of Georgia's territorial integrity.

There's nothing to "fall for". It is.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:38 PM on 08/17/2008
- farseer I'm a Fan of farseer 7 fans permalink
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You mean just like Kosovo was part of Serbia's territorial integrity? Oh, I forgot - the "international community" told us Kosovo was a new nation, and to hell with Serbia's territorial integrity. The "international community" did not condemn the breakup of Yugoslavia, the destruction of Serbia's infrastructure and the environmental catastrophe wrought by NATO during the 1999 war, the invasion of Iraq, or the bombing of Lebanon.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:54 PM on 08/17/2008
- Destin I'm a Fan of Destin 55 fans permalink
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What international community? The UN was never asked to vote on it that I can recall. However, as of Aug 15th, South Ossetia and the other region, will be taking their case to the international community to gain independence once and for all. I guess South Ossetia winning their war for independence in 1992 against Georgia, wasn't good enough? I'm glad these revisionist historians weren't around in 1776.

But why did the US and UK veto the Aug 8 resolution calling for both sides to renounce use of force?? Answer me that JackND. ;)

"At the request of Russia, the U.N. Security Council held an emergency session in New York but failed to reach consensus early Friday on a Russian-drafted statement.­"

"The council concluded it was at a stalemate after the US, Britain and some other members backed the Georgians in rejecting a phrase in the three-sentence draft statement that would have required both sides "to renounce the use of force," council diplomats said."

There you go, right from the start the US was stoking the conflict, rather than trying to end it. ;)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:56 PM on 08/17/2008
- Destin I'm a Fan of Destin 55 fans permalink
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Oh yah, the link I was quoting those 2 quotes from.....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-strikes-as-georgia-moves-against-rebels-888487.html

Down near the bottom. ;)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:38 PM on 08/17/2008

Yes there is, Georgia is the agressor that killed people they should not have...THE­Y are wrong. So Georgia better leave them alone or Russia will respond.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:25 AM on 08/18/2008
- Tayo I'm a Fan of Tayo 4 fans permalink

Most western media and commentators have, in my view, missed the significance of Russia's incursion into Georgia territory. I have heard proclamations both from American politicians and European politicians that would be laughable if the situation were not so tragic and serious. For example when the western politicians talk of consequencies if Russia does not obey their command, what exactly do they propose to do? And the hypocrisy of allowing Israel to defy the UN resolutions and world's opinion even as they go hysteria over Russia doing the same thing is just disgusting.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:24 PM on 08/17/2008
- thedirtman I'm a Fan of thedirtman 18 fans permalink

In all this fighting does anyone ever say or care what the citizens of the breakaway provinces think? I keep hearing Russia, Georgia, and John McCain.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:10 PM on 08/17/2008
- farseer I'm a Fan of farseer 7 fans permalink
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I don't like what Russia did in Georgia, but what America did in Iraq is much worse. So for us to lecture Russia is absurd.

It's also interesting to compare Kosovo with Ossetia. The west insisted on carving out a chunk of Serbia's traditional territory and making a new country of it. And in doing so, we ignored the wishes of the Serb minority in Kosovo.

Do a majority of the South Ossetians with to join Russia? If so, will we also support their wishes as we did those of the Kosovars? Will we ignore the wishes of the Georgians residing in S. Ossetia, as we ignored the wishes of the Serbs in Kosovo? Stay tuned. We'll see how righteous and holy America is.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:34 PM on 08/17/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

A Serb minority within their own country no less.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:35 PM on 08/17/2008

Georgia is the aggressor.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:28 AM on 08/18/2008
- genseric13 I'm a Fan of genseric13 6 fans permalink

Russia likes the Ossetians because they have a high birth rate which is much coveted. The Ossetians are an ancient Aryan people (the Alans). They deserve their own country. My suggestion is Russia give up N. Ossetia and Georgia give up S. Ossetia, then Ossetia can be united.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:12 PM on 08/17/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

That would be reasonable, but then Ossetia would be like Chechnya. Russia doesn't want an independent Ossetia at the expense of Russian territorial integrity. It's kinda like Georgia that way.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:15 PM on 08/17/2008

On the other hand, Chechnya is inside Russia. Ossetia is merely on the border.

The South Ossetians should be allowed to decide which country they want to join.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:43 PM on 08/17/2008
- Destin I'm a Fan of Destin 55 fans permalink
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Exellent point about the aryan (not to be confused with the dubious one) ancestry, which was at one point the Alans, but also known as the Sarmatians at points prior. Same Sarmatians Fox was drilling into our heads with their farce of a King Arthur moving claiming he was a Sarmatian. ;)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:18 PM on 08/17/2008

The Romans tended to be very poor horsemen. The Roman cavalry was comprised mostly of foreigners from horse loving cultures conquered by the Romans.

The Alans and the Sarmatians spent their lives on horseback. They ended up in the Roman cavalry for that reason.

There's nothing so unbelievable about a Sarmatian King Arthur. This was a time when the Romans and the Celts were both fighting off the invading Saxons.

The Romans couldn't ride. The Celts had never seen horses before. Sounds logical to me that Sarmatians, who grew up on horseback, would form the core of this legend of noble knights on horseback fighting the Saxon invasion.

There could be some Ossetian blood flowing in the veins of the people of Cornwall. It would be interesting to test their DNA and compare it with Ossetians.

So -- to McCain -- we're not all Georgians. Some of us could be Ossetians, if we have British ancestry from the Cornwall region.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:37 PM on 08/17/2008

OOps I take it back that the Celts had never seen horses before. Haha -- Rihannon, Epona etc. My bad.

But the point is -- the Sarmatians knew how to ride in battle, that was their skill, and I'd be willing to bet that any tradition of knights on horseback fighting the Saxons in Britain refers to some historical battles involving Sarmatians serving in the Roman cavalry.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:41 PM on 08/17/2008
- research I'm a Fan of research 257 fans permalink

Russia was supporting Ossetia's Independence with welcome peacekeepers. It was Georgia that could not stand an Independent Ossetia.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:00 PM on 08/17/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

South Ossetia perhaps... If you have a source indicating that Russia would be granting independence to North Ossetia, I'd like to see it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:14 PM on 08/17/2008
- research I'm a Fan of research 257 fans permalink

South Ossetia is the subject of discussion. Please look up the history. You have the internet, right there. Ossetia has been "disputed" since the breakup of the USSR. They want to be independent and hate the Georgians.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:18 PM on 08/17/2008
- Agnim I'm a Fan of Agnim 6 fans permalink

While the little troublemaker, Saakhasvili, is running off at the mouth about not giving up the Ossetians and Abkhazians, whom Georgia does not own or control, the Russian response is clear, "Forgetaboutit!" lol

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:54 PM on 08/17/2008
- Johnbo I'm a Fan of Johnbo 4 fans permalink

After trying - and failing - to ethnically cleanse South Ossetia in a brutal attack aimed just as much, it seems, at destroying the Ossetian capitol and killing its people as recapturing it, the Ossetians are now busily returning the favor by doing their own ethnic cleansing by burning Georgian homes in South Ossetia and even crossing the border to loot and pillage. There won't be a Georgian left in South Ossetiawhen they're done.

The facts on the ground are that both provinces, which have different languages and cultures and have been operating for over 15 years independent of Georgia, will never return to Georgia voluntarily, nor should they. Georgia lost what little power they had to reintegrate those provinces when they showed they tried to use brute force (just as the Serbs did when they tried to brutally suppress Kosovo).

It's over, Saakashvili. Buhbye to South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:30 PM on 08/17/2008
- bluesnot I'm a Fan of bluesnot 13 fans permalink

Wait a sec....tha­t sounds like just the sort of conflict that Bush and neocon Republicans would love to get involved in.

Let's see. I bet we could pay government contractors at least $40 billion for their services. And as usual, the American people would get zilch! And the conflict would never end!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:59 PM on 08/17/2008
- riverhouse I'm a Fan of riverhouse 47 fans permalink

The vital message in all this is that the USA is in dire need of an intelligent, thoughtful, knowledgeable president in 2009. We've had all the stupidity we can tolerate and remain viable on the world stage.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:52 PM on 08/17/2008

Yeah it's a shame Ron Paul dropped out and we have no chance of that happening

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:28 PM on 08/17/2008
- Kirby I'm a Fan of Kirby 21 fans permalink

Is it stupidity which emanates from the Oval Office when we are called to defend the bastions of freedom? Bush's view is that we are God-called, Texas-style, i.e., in a big time way, not only to defend freedom and the freedom fighters defending their freedom in Georgia on August 7, but that we, additionally, have the moral obligation to spread democracy everywhere there are peoples in a plight of fright. Spreading democracy is a sacred duty we Americans must carry on.

When he leaves the Oval Office in January, It would be great encouragement to the world to see a banner hanging on the White House exterior wall for the whole world to see and savor: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! And a voice from the heavens will declare forthwith, "This was your homegrown son; look at all he has done, for this is the way the West was won. He's from Texas, and he showed his big gun." And over the rainbow there were multitudes of angelic beings led by Rod Parsley and Pastor Bob Tilton crying and singing, "Truly, truly, there was glory in his story."

Oh, yeah! And halleluyah to-yah! And guess what else we have to look forward to? The new neo-con heavenly star: Captain Queeg McCain!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:34 PM on 08/17/2008
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