New Greenland Ice Cracks Worry Scientists

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SETH BORENSTEIN | August 21, 2008 09:01 PM EST | AP

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This image provided by the Byrd Polar Research Center, Columbus, Ohio, taken July 25, 2008, shows a growing giant crack and an 11-square-mile chunk of ice hemorrhaging off a prominent glacier in northern Greenland. The crack, at center, right, is seven miles long and about half a mile wide. It is about half the width of the 500 square mile floating part of the glacier. If the cracking continues, the floating part of the glacier could lose up to one third of its size. (AP Photo/Byrd Polar Research Center)

WASHINGTON — In northern Greenland, a part of the Arctic that had seemed immune from global warming, new satellite images show a growing giant crack and an 11-square-mile chunk of ice hemorrhaging off a major glacier, scientists said Thursday.

And that's led the university professor who spotted the wounds in the massive Petermann glacier to predict disintegration of a major portion of the Northern Hemisphere's largest floating glacier within the year.

If it does worsen and other northern Greenland glaciers melt faster, then it could speed up sea level rise, already increasing because of melt in sourthern Greenland.

The crack is 7 miles long and about half a mile wide. It is about half the width of the 500 square mile floating part of the glacier. Other smaller fractures can be seen in images of the ice tongue, a long narrow sliver of the glacier.

"The pictures speak for themselves," said Jason Box, a glacier expert at the Byrd Polar Research Center at Ohio State University who spotted the changes while studying new satellite images. "This crack is moving, and moving closer and closer to the front. It's just a matter of time till a much larger piece is going to break off.... It is imminent."

The chunk that came off the glacier between July 10 and July 24 is about half the size of Manhattan and doesn't worry Box as much as the cracks. The Petermann glacier had a larger breakaway ice chunk in 2000. But the overall picture worries some scientists.

"As we see this phenomenon occurring further and further north _ and Petermann is as far north as you can get _ it certainly adds to the concern," said Waleed Abdalati, director of the Center for the Study of Earth from Space at the University of Colorado.

The question that now faces scientists is: Are the fractures part of normal glacier stress or are they the beginning of the effects of global warming?

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"It certainly is a major event," said NASA ice scientist Jay Zwally in a telephone interview from a conference on glaciers in Ireland. "It's a signal but we don't know what it means."

It is too early to say it is clearly global warming, Zwally said. Scientists don't like to attribute single events to global warming, but often say such events fit a pattern.

University of Colorado professor Konrad Steffen, who returned from Greenland Wednesday and has studied the Petermann glacier in the past, said that what Box saw is not too different from what he saw in the 1990s: "The crack is not alarming... I would say it is normal."

However, scientists note that it fits with the trend of melting glacial ice they first saw in the southern part of the massive island and seems to be marching north with time. Big cracks and breakaway pieces are foreboding signs of what's ahead.

Further south in Greenland, Box's satellite images show that the Jakobshavn glacier, the fastest retreating glacier in the world, set new records for how far it has moved inland.

That concerns Colorado's Abdalati: "It could go back for miles and miles and there's no real mechanism to stop it."

___

On the Net:

Ohio State University images and data: http://bprc.osu.edu/MODIS/

WASHINGTON — In northern Greenland, a part of the Arctic that had seemed immune from global warming, new satellite images show a growing giant crack and an 11-square-mile chunk of ice hemorrhagi...
WASHINGTON — In northern Greenland, a part of the Arctic that had seemed immune from global warming, new satellite images show a growing giant crack and an 11-square-mile chunk of ice hemorrhagi...
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- BushBites I'm a Fan of BushBites 31 fans permalink

I'ze a Republican..

The Baybee Jayzus on my dashboard say 'don't worry."

Thiank ya, Baybee Jayzus.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:45 AM on 08/22/2008
- Gasparilla I'm a Fan of Gasparilla 32 fans permalink

Tune in Rush. He'll have an explanation that will probably involve buying a large SUV.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:12 AM on 08/22/2008
- elbzee I'm a Fan of elbzee 22 fans permalink
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Naaahhhhh, He'll say Obama did it

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:19 AM on 08/22/2008
- Durango I'm a Fan of Durango 144 fans permalink

I thought everything was Clinton's fault.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:12 AM on 08/22/2008
- MGhamma I'm a Fan of MGhamma 15 fans permalink

Ya, I heard the limborgh once refer to a study that the smog around big cities reflected sunlight back up into space, thus counteracting the effects of global warming. In other words, he used an example of humans effect on climate counteracting humans effect on climate to prove that humans can't possibly have an effect on climate. And who said that dittoheads were stupid?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:34 PM on 08/22/2008

This may sound frivolous but it's something that has always stuck in my mind,the Amish.If we as a culture (meaning earthlings) lived as they do (religion aside),tweaking it to provide the best for the least we would have no need to look for answers to global warming.We all know the remedy to global warming, but we all refuse to accept and embrace it.Having a minority of people with the guts to tell the worst of us about global warming is like spitting into the wind,it's as if we need disaster and calamity to make us react.By then it's all those people that were refusing to accept the truth and calling us" Chicken Little" that will try and make a buck off our misery.Kind of like New York with the windmills.We need guidelines for living green on a global scale ASAP.I don't know if that's possible.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:57 AM on 08/22/2008

Living green on a global scale is not possible, but I know what you mean. Basically everything needs to become local again. But people don't know what that means and change frightens them.

A practical first step is to abolish all forms of industrial farming. There are many who are convinced that half of the greenhouse gasses comes from plowing up huge tracts of farmland every year. They call it "burning young coal" because as a matter of fact it releases tons of carbon into the air. Carbon sequestration is the opposite of that, and it's better for the land and keeps nutrients in the soil. Pesticides are not needed (pesticides are oil based by the way).

I say the above is a practical first step because we need to focus on changing the infrastructure to meet our needs first. Global businesses do not meet our needs. Energy is primary. We're wasting oil. We've convinced ourselves that we cannot live without oil. Nonsense. We can and we will but we won't know how until we know how to grow our own food.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:46 AM on 08/22/2008
- ouroborous I'm a Fan of ouroborous 60 fans permalink

Actually a lot of research indicates that large-scale farming is the most carbon *efficient* way to feed the billions of people on earth.

Remember the whole "let's turn corn into biofuel" thing? And the ensuing food crisis?

Beware of the law of unintended consequences; what SEEMS green might not, actually, BE green.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:59 AM on 08/22/2008
- Durango I'm a Fan of Durango 144 fans permalink

I have always understood that the Amish were the most efficient farmers in America, perhaps the world.

Modern farming has traded oil for man hours. And while that would seem to be good trade when they are your man hours it is not really efficient. As we find out when the price of oil rises.

Most Americans, or most world citizens wouldn't want to work as hard as the Amish. And you can't blame them.

But if production is tied to the price of oil and that price goes out of sight.

It might be worthwhile to look at the Amish model.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:17 AM on 08/22/2008
- Podewumun I'm a Fan of Podewumun 32 fans permalink

The Amish don't waste their time watching TV or playing video games (or, like our Timmyboy, pecking out rubbish on a computer keyboard).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:38 PM on 08/22/2008
- mergina I'm a Fan of mergina 92 fans permalink
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Doubting this is like lying on the tracks watching a speeding freight train coming at you about 10 seconds away from smearing you into mushy oblivion and thinking, "It's going to miss us right?"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:44 AM on 08/22/2008
- mamacat I'm a Fan of mamacat 150 fans permalink

When ice from the Arctic ice cap melts, it does not cause a rise in sea level, because it is already in the ocean.

What is happening on Greenland and on the Antarctic mainland is different. In those places, there are very large amounts of ice that are on land, and when that ice melts, it has a direct affect on sea level heights around the world. The ground underneath the glaciers will rebound, but that will not help coastal areas in other parts of the world.

The Arctic ice cap averaged only 12 feet thick when the American nuclear submarine Nuatilus sailed underneath it for the first time in the 1950s. Today the part of that ice cap that is permanent has been reduced by about 50%, and even the permanent ice is much thinner than it was in the 1950s.

The Greenland ice cap varies in thickness, but averages over one and a half miles thick. In Antarctica the ice is almost three miles thick in many places. The amount of fresh water that will be released into the ocean when those ice caps melt will be signifigant, and besides raising sea levels, may cause changes in sea currents, which will alter the climate in still unknown ways.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:01 AM on 08/22/2008
- mamacat I'm a Fan of mamacat 150 fans permalink

A little bit more:
the total volume of Arctic permanent ice has fallen by about 75% in about 50 years. Thus the forecast by some scientists that the Arctic's permanent ice may be completely melted within a few years makes sense.

Also, it is possible that the melting fresh water ice caps on Greenland and Antarctica will have very dramatic consequences on climate. Ironicly, global warming might cause much colder and longer winters in Europe and Japan, with the consequent threat of a massive loss of life.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:06 AM on 08/22/2008
- NL207 I'm a Fan of NL207 9 fans permalink

It is also possible that an asteroid sized body will strike this planet and erase 90% of all species. Based on the evidence in the geologic record, the likelyhood of this will occur again is a near certainty. Why aren't you spreading fear, unceratinty and doubt about that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:13 AM on 08/22/2008
- Exusian I'm a Fan of Exusian 27 fans permalink

Because although the possibility of an asteroid striking Earth is indeed a certainty, it is not actually happening at this moment. And even if it was, there is presently nothing we could do to stop it from happening.

But global warming-induced climate change IS happening right now, and there is something we CAN do to slow and stop it, at least until natural feedbacks overpower human-induced greenhouse gas forcing.

So why are you spreading uncertainty and doubt about that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:13 AM on 08/22/2008

IN the meantime, all that melting ice cools the oceans a bit. This gives the deniers another fig leaf.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:28 AM on 08/22/2008
- Exusian I'm a Fan of Exusian 27 fans permalink

But when an ice shelf, or the tongue of glacier, breaks up and melts, it allows the grounded ice behind it to surge forward, and that ice will raise sea level.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:20 AM on 08/22/2008
- NL207 I'm a Fan of NL207 9 fans permalink

"allows the grounded ice behind it to surge forward, and that ice will raise sea level"

And you know this how? In what scientific study has this idea been proven out? And if indeed true, by how much?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:01 PM on 08/22/2008

All this global warming talk is a bunch of hooey. Everyone knows that any extra water that melts from the ice caps just falls off the edge of the world and then God pours it back in in the form of clouds.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:03 AM on 08/22/2008
- mergina I'm a Fan of mergina 92 fans permalink
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You forgot to mention that HE (really, god is a he huh? #1 flaw) dishes it out to all of those who pray, rape and pillage in HIS (there it is again god is a guy huh) name.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:42 AM on 08/22/2008
- research I'm a Fan of research 281 fans permalink

Doesn't the ground "rebound" after glaciers go away?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:26 AM on 08/22/2008

I think so. Perhaps not always, but also perhaps that does not apply to areas of the world which don't have glaciers, so they will be under water as Greenland rises from the loss of weight.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:30 AM on 08/22/2008
- Exusian I'm a Fan of Exusian 27 fans permalink

Yes, on a geologic time scale. Earth's crust is still rebounding from the last ice age.

Unfortunately global warming is currently happening on a human time scale.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:22 AM on 08/22/2008
- research I'm a Fan of research 281 fans permalink
    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:17 PM on 08/22/2008
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

Great point!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:23 PM on 08/22/2008

"The question that now faces scientists is: Are the fractures part of normal glacier stress or are they the beginning of the effects of global warming?"

That this question is even asked just goes to show how omnipresent the denial of global warming perpetrated by Bush Administration and its big oil backers has become. You have to give them credit they are the best liars the White House has ever seen.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:54 AM on 08/22/2008
- max08 I'm a Fan of max08 50 fans permalink

What about all the underground volcanos blowing up in that region? Over 200.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:16 AM on 08/22/2008

There's no such thing as an underground volcano; it's only a volcano when it breaks though the Earths surface.

You are probably talking about underwater volcanoes. They are very deep, and the temperature of the water above those volcanoes is still colder than the surface water, so it's impossible for them to be heating the surface.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:44 AM on 08/22/2008
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

Rabid, you are so right. Every article on warming is so qualified. The rabid right has a disdain for science exactly because it does not allow for partisan interpretation and so they attack it at every venue. The rabid right wants every subject to seem like it is all a matter of interpretaion and many are not.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:51 AM on 08/22/2008
- NL207 I'm a Fan of NL207 9 fans permalink

I have disdain for the inexact prognostications you and the rest of these alarmists are promoting as exact science. The vast majority of what passes for global climate science does not even conform to the scientific method. Challenge: go read up on the scientific method and tell me where most climate science must diverge from it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:50 AM on 08/22/2008
- dgscol I'm a Fan of dgscol 4 fans permalink
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I beg to differ. These scientists, one of whom I know personally, has a severe dislike for going out in the cold. He can only travel when it is warm, and therefore it is warm when he observes. Even then, Mr. Z, call him, rarely actually travels anywhere to see what is going on. They do not know what is causing the cracking, and what it is related to. They have a picture and they tell someone a story. If they can relate these observations to other field parameters you have a basis for making interpretations.

The other budding scientist gets images from space, and often there is poor to nonexistent ground truth. The people that were to provide it, had wives (they said) that did not like their husbands to leave them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:03 AM on 08/22/2008
- dgscol I'm a Fan of dgscol 4 fans permalink
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The important information is not being analyzed. For example, statistically, how often do glaciers calf? How large are the pieces? We are in danger here, of people tellingus of global warming every time someone has an image, or a photograph.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:20 AM on 08/22/2008
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

They are doing it much more frequently and with larger pieces of ice, if you are following the science lately. Since you brought up the question and as a skeptic, why don't you let us know?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:52 AM on 08/22/2008
- dgscol I'm a Fan of dgscol 4 fans permalink
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I would say there is some reason to believe that oceanic warming in some areas is influencing cloud densities, surface accumulation, and ablative processes which are accelerated by rain in the summer.

Large thicknesses of ice also naturally calf when they become large enough, whatever the process might be that break them - tides and infiltration of brine and surface water always exist to some degree.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:18 AM on 08/22/2008
- dgscol I'm a Fan of dgscol 4 fans permalink
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In addition I would say that to my knowledge, there have been extremely few studies that have looked at how ice calves, how often, and what size. So they in all probability could not say really, if anything remarkable is taking place. They are not in the realm of doing hard science. Perhaps one of you would like to measure and count pieces of ice, and possibly go on a boat and make observations of recent calving events. Some go once, but hey intrepid researchers are not easy to find..

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:32 AM on 08/22/2008
- Adjuster I'm a Fan of Adjuster 15 fans permalink

Hey dip****,

Try reading the article.
"Scientists don't like to attribute single events to global warming, but often say such events fit a pattern."

Better yet go back to sleep. We'll wake you when it's over.

What do scientists know anyway, with their college educations and fancy degrees. Just look outside, it's a nice day. You don't need no elitist scientists to tell me what's what! Right?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:50 AM on 08/22/2008
- chronic I'm a Fan of chronic 71 fans permalink
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We in deep doo doo!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:07 AM on 08/22/2008
- Bitsko I'm a Fan of Bitsko 543 fans permalink
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This story, and so many others others like it, reminds one of the old song by Jim Anglin

This world can't stand too long
Be ready don't wait too late
We should know it can't stand long
For it is too full of hate

etc.

We have to do something about all these cars and machines. I just don't see it happening.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:41 AM on 08/22/2008
- max08 I'm a Fan of max08 50 fans permalink

Google underground volcanos. Think of a bathtub full of cool water. A hot room doesn't heat the water. Something firing underneath would.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:17 AM on 08/22/2008
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

You think scientists may be able to take underground volcanoes into account? That would be the first thing they would look at. I saw no mention of underground glaciers. Heat will melt ice whether undergroung or above ground. Also, with melting water flows uderneath the glaciers making further melting happen.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:59 AM on 08/22/2008
- Tommygun264 I'm a Fan of Tommygun264 211 fans permalink
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Well it certainly sounds like you've solved it. You should address the scientific community immediately. What was your degree in, by the way? Or is fancy book learnin' and edumucation for sissies?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:18 AM on 08/22/2008
- fuzzwald I'm a Fan of fuzzwald 11 fans permalink
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And where did you take physics? Bob Jones U?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:40 PM on 08/22/2008
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It is time to demand change of your leaders. Perhaps as you walk through a field, or sit outside to eat your lunch in one of your major cities, you feel removed from the dramatic changes your world is going to bring to you, because of you. You are not. No one on your world is.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:22 AM on 08/22/2008

Cue the global warming deniers and Gore haters. Here come the trolls.

It's amazing how many morons will deny direct evidence. Ever notice It's always the same percentage of morons who give Bush his low approval ratings? 28% 30%?

Adam and Eve were the first humans on the planet.

The earth is only 6000 years old.

UFO's landed in my backyard.

Evolution is just a theory.

Jerry Fal well was raptured.

All these stupid beliefs go together with Global Warming is a hoax.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:52 AM on 08/22/2008
- Bitsko I'm a Fan of Bitsko 543 fans permalink
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Sadly too many people think this way. I was talking to an elderly friend the other day and she asked me what this story was about the earth going around the sun. Her kids didn't like me explaining it to her and they weren't interested.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:43 AM on 08/22/2008
- dogman44 I'm a Fan of dogman44 54 fans permalink
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You're kidding........right?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:52 AM on 08/22/2008
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

Jerry Falwell was not raptured?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:01 AM on 08/22/2008
- williamjgc I'm a Fan of williamjgc 2 fans permalink

"Scientists don't like to attribute single events to global warming, but often say such events fit a pattern."
That's what the man-made global warming movement is all about, attributing single events and as many events as possible to global warming.

By the way, Rajendra Pachauri the head of the IPCC admits that there has been no global warming in the 21st century despite an increase in CO2...Ever heard the sound of a house of cards collapsing?

By the way (2), this is the same man who appears to have no problem with coal power plants as long as the are located in his home country India.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:46 PM on 08/21/2008
- rfshunt I'm a Fan of rfshunt 47 fans permalink

Links?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:18 AM on 08/22/2008
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

Man-made global warming studies are about much more than fitting single events to global warming. They are about studying the polar caps melting over decades, drilling into the ocean cores, glaciers, and corals and studying climate patterns for thousands of years. Yours is just another uninformed argument. In fact, mostly, as in this article, scientists go out of their way not to attribute single events to warming because they are careful and because of the denying community which you represent.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:04 AM on 08/22/2008

NL207 - your an idiot! To ignore the ever changing condition of the ice of Greenland is absurd. Are you working for Exxon or the Bush administration? I'm sick of ideology posing as science.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:36 PM on 08/21/2008
- NL207 I'm a Fan of NL207 9 fans permalink

I like your scientific argument. You disagree with me therfore I am an idiot. Thank you for conceding my argument.

Maybe you should take a bath, and while you are doing that, you might contemplate Archimedes instead of your navel.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:54 AM on 08/22/2008
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 159 fans permalink

Can i still play with my froggie while I ponder Archimedes?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:08 PM on 08/22/2008
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