Ralph Nader Says Geothermal Is The Way, Pickens Is A Good Starting Point

While the Democratic National Convention took control of Denver this week, a reported 4,000 people showed up to a Ralph Nader campaign rally at the University of Denver on Wednesday. The crowd was mixed, though I would bet that none were there just for the musical guests, as was suggested in one blog.

Nader is currently polling at between 6 and 8 percent in Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada and Pennsylvania, according to a CNN/Time Poll (PDF) from earlier this week.

On Thursday, Nader went to Cheyenne, Wyo., for a campaign stop. HuffPost Green got a quick interview in with him via telephone as he traveled from Cheyenne to Denver International Airport. We talked about Barack Obama, John McCain, T. Boone Pickens and why he thinks geothermal energy is the bees' knees.

HP: Yesterday at the DNC, Joe Biden said this:

"Barack Obama will transform our economy by making alternative energy a genuine national priority, creating 5 million new jobs and finally freeing us from the grip of foreign oil. That's the change we need."

Do you think that Obama will make energy policy enough of a priority and do you think he can do enough to reduce dependence on foreign oil?

Ralph Nader: I don't think so, because he has no plan to overcome the oil company and gas company and coal company opposition. When he was in the state senate he supported legislation to make $3.5 billion in loan guarantees to coal plants without any carbon-capture technology.

HP: What about McCain?

Story continues below

advertisement

Nader: Remember, McCain and Kerry filed legislation in the Senate to accelerate fuel efficiency standards in 2005 [ed.: this was actually in 2002] and they had their head handed to them, 2-to-1... but it does show that he has a proclivity in that direction. But I don't think he's going to take on the fossil fuel companies either.

They'll push alternatives, but with nowhere near the built-in subsidies historically.

I don't see anybody in the [oil] trade press... in the least worried about Obama and McCain, where they would be the first to raise the alarm.

HP: I asked you yesterday briefly about the Pickens Plan, but I'm not sure I fully understood your position. You said that it was a good discussion-starter. Can you elaborate on that?

Nader: It expands the range of public discussion, not only because of the money but into the ads that everyone's talking about, but the fact that he's an oil man.

It raises the profile of wind power enormously and pushes the auto companies and the gas suppliers to more seriously consider conversion of the infrastructure to natural gas.

He doesn't answer the question as to why it's going to be that less expensive given the skyrocketing cost of coal, gas, oil. It's going to lead to a huge increase in the demand for natural gas, and that increase will be met by a decline in demand for electricity fueled by natural gas.

It would take World War II to convert these companies -- as they did.

HP: Short of World War II, what do you think would encourage the energy companies, the public and the government to convert to renewables?

Nader: You take away all their subsidies and tax credits and R&D and all that, all their tax subsidies. Just take it away and make it an uneven playing field in reverse. You start preferring renewables.

HP: What is the one energy source we should be looking at now?

Nader: Geothermal, geothermal, geothermal. It's gone from focusing on very rare and volatile geothermal sites to almost anywhere in the country now. As they do more of these tailor-made geothermals under homes and shopping malls, they'll start bringing down the price.

It's available anywhere in the country. They don't have to go deep, either. A few yards.

HP: The New York Times just reported that New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo sued -- and settled with -- Xcel Energy over their putting shareholders at undisclosed global warming-related risk. What are other unusual ways the government could force energy companies to raise the profile of climate change?

Nader: The Securities Exchange Commission could do that now quite readily. Once again the New York Attorney General is doing things that the federal government should be doing. I don't know the full details though, there could be a lot of greenwashing there.

Related blogs:

::Michael Brune: Follow the Coal Money
::Jeff Biggers: Wake Up, Democrats: Send Dirty Coal Packing

Comments

[ProgressiveGoat44]

I have always relied on Nader for his opinions..­. I think he did something when my grandpa was young, or something like that? Nader's opinions are unsafe in any decade.

[ErnestineBass]

Ralph Nader has done more to promote the safety and well-being of the average American than ANYONE who's ever "served" in Congress.

When moronslikeyou heap derision on men like Nader, is it any wonder we end up with less-then-stellar choices when it comes to mainstream presidential candidates?

I suggest you change your nick to BillyGoat44.

[StephenJK]

What's wrong with solar, wind and tidal? These seem like much less invasive mechanisms to produce sustainable energy derivatives. The installation of the device is all that is needed instead of installation plus digging earth and using up precious water. EVs are just around the corner with new and much improved capacitor technology to power them. Couple the zero emmission low noise vehicles with a grid supplied with long term sustainable derivatives and we've come a loooong way to reversing the destructive trends we've embraced since the industrial revolution began in the early 20th century. I can't wait to get my EV and say "See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya" to OPEC and it's Big Oil suitors.

[KillTheMessenger]

There is nothing wrong with any of that.

What is wrong is that Ralph Nader does not even understand the basics of renewable energy, yet wants to appear as if he had invented this stuff to begin with while pandering as if he wanted to set a world record in this non-Olympic discipline.

[GhiaccioPronto]

I thought killing small engine imports and promoting big detroit gas guzzlers was the way Ralf.

[mamacat]

If he gets between 6 and 8 percent of the vote, he could hand the election to the GOP, again.

In most of the parliamentary systems of government, getting at least 5% of the votes will get you some representatives in the legislature, which would enable Nader's people to align with the Dems to form a government. That would give Nader a large voice in government.

In our system of government, getting 5% of the votes (at least in Nader's case) means that the Dems may lose again, with all that that implies for our future.

[research]

Agreed. The USA system literally makes us "Bipolar" .

[GreyFlcn]

Nader doesn't seem to understand the difference between Geothermal for heating, and Geothermal for Thermoelectric power.

Specifically EGS, Enhanced Geothermal Systems.
http://greyfalcon.net/geoenergy.png

[TrevorAlan]

Putting aside my antipathy with Nader for the moment--are there NO downsides to geothermal? Does it really pull huge quantities of energy compared to the investment without freeing gasses that might be considered polutants or global-warming contributors?

I'm all for more geothermal, but most energy sources are trade-offs of one negative for another. Is there something we are not being told?

[nippersdad]

From all that I have read, no. You are essentially pumping water down into hot granite to produce steam which, in turn, runs generators. Endless electric supply for the price of a (sometimes very deep) hole.

[mamacat]

Agreed. From all that I have read, this is one power source that has been greatly under-utilised and that has tremendous potential. There are some places on Earth where the heat source is accompanied by poison gases, but no one is suggesting using those locations.

I read in one on-line renewable energy journal that there are over 1,000 geothermal projects being worked on in the U.S. at this very time. Most of these sites have capacities per unit of time that are much less than a conventional or nuclear electrical plant, but they are still profitable to operate.

For an interesting read, google "The Geysers" electrical generating plant in California. It produces over half of all the electricity from geothermal on the entire planet, much more than is generated from the plants in Iceland, and is a huge success story. It has been in operation for decades, and is still being expanded. The heat from "The Geysers" is not used for space heating, as in Iceland, so the comparison can not be made directly.

[research]

Earth quakes and slowing down the mantle.

[KillTheMessenger]

Ralph Nader does not seem to understand the different meanings of "geothermal".

There are the rare geothermal power plants sites which drill deep into hot, conductive rock layers to produce steam. Those are exceptional sites and can not be expected to produce large amounts of energy but at least they can produce some.

And then there is "geothermal" heating/cooling which does not generate energy at all. It merely uses the heat capacity of the soil under a NEW construction site to save energy that would usually be wasted by a heating/cooling unit. But how many home owners will raise their home to put it in? How many will dig up the yard to install such a system? The numbers are vanishingly small right now.

Mr. Nader, you are on an ego trip here. For sure you have no clue what you are talking about when it comes to energy policy. Your endorsement for the Pickens plan is an abomination of self serving talk.

[rjmiller]

Agreed. Obviously Nader has no idea about the specifics of geothermal energy. If you want a power source anyone can set up in their backyard its gotta be solar or wind.

In addition, I am convinced Picken's natural gas plan is merely trying to shift demand over to another commodity he profits from. Hydrogen is so obviously superior in terms of cleanliness, what with the lack of carbon, that its hard to really suggest natural gas as a clean alternative. Give it 10 years and H production will be cheap enough to compete, and then everyone will convert to plug-in hybrids.

[KillTheMessenger]

There is no power source that "anyone can set up in the back yard" that is also environmentally neutral. Wind and solar aren't that, either. It's just not so obvious what the downsides are and how they have to be handles by the legislator (think about impact on birds by small scale wind and long term material toxicity issues with solar panels and the necessary recycling chain).

Geothermal (as in drilling to hot geological layers) is large scale technology. It appeals to energy systems people because they can order the big stuff (drill, pipes, high pressure steam turbines etc..). That's stuff they understand. They know how to calculate the financial return on these things and its their turf. It's a "don't try this at home, kids" kind of technology. That appeal, however, does not make it a winner. It just makes it an intermediate solution until the big guys learn how to deal with solar etc.. From an engineering perspective a lot has to do with the fear of intermittancy which geothermal does not evoke. It's nice base load power. One can even shut it off! Try that with solar... or wind.

Pickens, you got that right, is just your friendly drug dealer who wants to take another dealer's business away. He does not want us to get off energy, his interest is to make us buy it from him.

[nippersdad]

It takes an immense amount of energy to hydrolyze water molecules. It would also take large fresh water supplies for its' constant manufacture. Hydrogen, while being very clean, is also very inefficient in terms of storage. Huge tanks are required for a gas which is comparatively energy impoverished. Extremely cold temps are required for storage of the liquid. Distribution of such a commodity would be difficult given the amounts necessary to achieve the same energy density as natural gas.

Given the difficulties of sufficient cheap energy to hydrolyze the gas, large continuously replenished water supplies, storage and distribution, I find it difficult to see where it can have any effect on the overall energy picture save a an inefficient storage vehicle for surplus wind or solar electricity generated by large energy concerns. They, at least, could take advantage of scales of efficiency by using a continuous loop of gas to water to gas powered in part by the waste heat of the burning process.

Decentralized solar coordinated by existing energy concerns is going to be of far greater value. I don't think we will ever see it become a purely point of use organism because of its inability to provide an unvarying base load.

[nippersdad]

No, that is not correct at all. Google is funding research into deep dry well production of Geothermal energy technologies which would relieve the industry of the necessity for local hot spots and existing underground water reservoirs. Given the kind of government underwriting that the oil, coal and nuclear industries have been given for decades, it would not be out of the realm of possibility for these types of plants to replace older coal plants within the decade....­anywhere.

The point of the new geothermal heat pumps is not to produce energy but to save it. If one need only heat air a few degrees by running it over a constant of say fifty degrees, large efficiences of energy are achieved in both cold and hot weather by not having to heat external air up all the way from ambient temps.

These Geothermal heat pumps are easily adapted to any residence, not just new construction as you say. I live in a neighborhood of older homes and several people nearby have had them installed. They only had to have a trench dug in their yards for circulation of the fluid. There are installations which reduce the need for trenching by drilling holes and placing the loops in that way. Large properties are, therefore, not necessary for their installation.

Finally, if you read the article you would have seen that Nader was not endorsing Pickens' plan but saying that Pickens' plan was a good conversation starter.

[KillTheMessenger]

Just because Google is funding "it" does not make it so.
Just because you don't like the current system does not make it so.
Just because something is in the "realm of possibilities" (how romantic) does not make it so.

The only thing that makes it so are the laws of nature. And the laws of nature do not give geothermal a particularly good chance of being a particularly useful energy source other than under rare circumstances.

Geothermal heat pumps require that you drill a lot of hole into your property. If you can do that, fine. If you can't you are screwed. Last year they installed 80,000 of them. That's not a lot. Actually, it's very few. Totally negligible on the scale of things at the moment.

If Nader thinks the Pickens plan is a "starter", I have three bridges in Brooklyn for him to sell.

Nader is an illusionist. And you fell for him. That's pretty much the whole story.

[iPolitics]

Ralph...if you help McCain win as you did Bush...wil­l their be any environment left to save in 4 or 8 years?

[gevan]

I saw where we can power a clock by sticking electrode into a potato. Much better than power plants all over Yellowstone, don't you think?

[Roxanna]

Ralph Nader knows a lot and has contributed through out years to Public Awareness.

He is True Public advocate !

[KillTheMessenger]

Yeah, right. He helped G.W. Bush win an election. That really helped both the public and the environmen­t....

The man is an egomaniac on a stick.

[wm1066]

Hmmm.. doesn't that kool-aide taste a little ..sour?!!

[70sFez]

I agree Roxanna. He is the only REAL voice for change. The problem is most people are afraid of change.

[Destin]

This all coming from a man who said the Corvair was unsafe at any speed. Yet, many of them are still on the road and are hot collectors items. ;)

[RoloTomassi]

that's either subtle satire or revisionist history...­I'm not sure which.

[sheila]

i think he's talking about geothermal heat exchange, which is not really an energy source so much as a temperatur­e-balancin­g, i.e., conservation mechanism, since the earth holds a steady temp of roughly 60 degrees once you go 6-10 feet down, so you can pre-heat or pre-cool air or water then circulate it as radiant heat/cooling, HVAC and/or run it through a water heater to bump it to 115 or so (lowers the jump, which lowers energy consumption). it is a great conservation tool, but will not usually generate electricity, which PV and microwind can do at point of use. geothermal power that would be suitable for electrical generation is not really available everywhere, and certainly not just a few yards down everywhere, but where it is, if it can be safely harnessed for local usage without a lot of new transmission, it might pitch in some baseload type power...

he's on the right track with reversing the trend of subsidizing the killer fuels and giving renewables that funding for the next 100 years. what he needs to be more clear about is that replacing one Big Energy monopolist with another one, even if they switch to wind as fuel, is inherently bad for ratepayers and taxpayers, and that local, point of use solutions are the only way to get any measure of independence from these mercenaries like Pickens, Chevron, Enron, Sempra and friends...

[Sumocat]

One can only hope he's talking about heat exchange. If he's referring to electricity generation, he's way off the mark.

[nippersdad]

I think he is talking about two different types of systems with different applications. He is being a little incoherent by not distinguishing them properly, but both will be vital to any coherent clean energy production­/conservat­ion energy future. Baseload will never be properly supplied by wind or solar unless storage technology DRAMATICALLY improves. Particularly if, as I hope, the future of transportation becomes dominated by electric vehicles and mass transit systems.