Honda Unveils A New Hybrid

New York Times:

Next year Honda and Toyota will go head-to-head with new flagship gas-electric hybrid cars. We all know what to expect from Toyota; its Prius is the best-selling hybrid to date, with over 180,000 sold in 2007 alone. The next-generation model will likely be better and more efficient.

Honda will counter the Prius with its new Insight -- a five-door hatchback named after Honda's first hybrid, discontinued in 2006 -- which will be unveiled next month at the Paris Motor Show.

Read the whole story: New York Times

Comments

[mscreant]

*sigh*

I will likely buy a hybrid in 2009.....why can't I buy an American one? I do NOT want to support Japan's economy but there is no American offering......

*sigh*

[tmay]

Good for Chevrolet for committing the Volt to production! Now if they can just figure out how to get the price down...

Probably obvious, but Chevrolet building a boutique serial hybrid makes the news, but I have difficulty seeing the Volt in volume production at the $40K estimate without a subsidy.

Meanwhile, we have Honda stepping up to the plate with the Insight, and you have to know that as one of the biggest manufacturers of portable generating systems, a serial hybrid would be a piece of cake. Then we have Toyota with its 2G pluggable being tested, and Toyota has already provided the 3G show car, and plans to split the Prius line into 3 differently sized models, all within the same timeframe as the volt.

So what's the holdup for Toyota and Honda? Why it's the batteries, and neither will commit until all of the issues are fully resolved, and even then the production ramp on the batteries would still mean years of production of Insight and Prius parallel hybrids.

Meanwhile, both will be shipping parallel hybrids in the millions, not the low thousands.

[KillTheMessenger]

"So what's the holdup for Toyota and Honda?"

Why parallel and not full series hybrids? That's relatively simple to answer. In a series hybrid ALL of the power that drives the car has to go through the electric system. At any time the generator's engine is not running, the battery will be discharged. Every time the generator is running the battery will be charged. It's either/or and the battery practically never gets a rest. And since the series hybrid gets its additional efficiency from operating its generator in a very narrow load range, there is almost constant mismatch between mechanical power demand and electrical power supply. The difference is being made up in violent charge/discharge cycles.

Current generation parallel hybrids don't convert most of the engine's power to electricity to begin with but transmit it to the wheels directly in form of mechanical work. This means fewer losses and much less charging/discharging of batteries, which results in a much more benign environment for the batteries and makes 100,000 mile life guarantees possible. It is much harder to achieve the same level of reliability with a true series hybrid which transfers several times as much energy through the battery as the mild parallel hybrid does to achieve the same. But it also means that the parallel hybrid will sacrifice some engine efficiency by running the engine in a wider load range.

[montemalone]

What about a convertible?

[KillTheMessenger]

That would kind of defeat the purpose of a hybrid... but we can almost be sure that Ford is working on one. It will probably get some 18mpg without the heating on...

[EspressoAtNoon]

That looks pretty cool. I'm psyched to finally see some serious competition in the hybrid market. Those Priuses have waiting lists and their prices keep going higher and higher.

Hopefully this trend brings prices down to where they are more available to all Americans and we can reduce our gasoline demand.

[KillTheMessenger]

Hmmm... by the time the Chevy volt enters the market for real (in 2012 or 2013), Toyota and Honda together will be selling two million hybrids per year... wonder what dust that leaves GM in...

Pixie-Dust, maybe?

Data:

http://autoobserver.typepad.com/media/chart_priussales.gif

So Toyota seems to ramp up Prius production by a factor of two every 18-24 months. Which means there are two doublings between now and the time the Chevy Volt will come out swinging. That would make 100,000 Prius sold every month. And I would expect a similar market response to the Honda Insight.

:-)

[EinChicago]

"Hmmm... by the time the Chevy volt enters the market for real (in 2012 or 2013), Toyota and Honda together will be selling two million hybrids per year... wonder what dust that leaves GM in..."

ummm. No. Honda and Toyota will be selling their 45 mpg pseudo hybrids. The Volt is a 150 mpg E-Rev. I haven't heard of any Toyota or Honda E-REV as of yet. At best, they have the Pious which is a very, very, very slight improvement over a Chevy Aveo in gas mileage and size and at only 200% the price. *snicker*

[KillTheMessenger]

"Honda and Toyota will be selling their 45 mpg pseudo hybrids"

Only if one were to use your false assumption that they don't have a pipeline of PHEV and EVs that will be sold under the Prius and Insight brands already in the works.

In any case it's 47.5mpg for the current Prius. And a lot more if you hypermile it.

The Chevy Volt is more something to hyperventilate about. Or to "hyperhype", if we want to coin a new but fitting phrase for it.

Of course, we can always make up an arbitrary mpg number for any non-existent vehicle like the Volt. That's called "makebelief" and kids usually shed the habit when they turn five, six tops. Let's see if the Volt can shed it by the time it's R&D effort turns five or six...

"I haven't heard of any Toyota or Honda E-REV as of yet."

And that's called "keeping industrial secrets".

"Chevy Aveo"

Isn't that the acronym for "American Yugo"?

"At best, they have the Pious which is a very, very, very slight improvement over a Chevy Aveo in gas mileage and size and at only 200% the price. *snicker*"

If comparing the measured 25mpg of the Aveo with 47mpg of the real world Prius is called "a slight improvement" in your books, I suggest you walk the difference of 22 miles that you get on one gallon of gas.

:-)

[Exusian]

Hey KTM, I see E is still blabbering on about Toyota assembling the Prius in China.
Too bad he has zero evidence that the ones imported into the US come from the plant in China.

[EinChicago]

"Honda expects to make the Insight the most affordable hybrid vehicle to date when it goes on sale early next year, around the same time the next-generation Toyota Prius goes on sale."

Sounds like this reporter is going to turn awfully blue in teh face waiting for teh next gen Pious. As of yet, nary so much as a concept as materialized. At best, it's vaporware that makes the Volt look readily available. '

[KillTheMessenger]

Nothing has materialized except for a firm sales date:

"Honda expects to make the Insight the most affordable hybrid vehicle to date when it goes on sale early next year"

:-)

Both the Prius and this one are due next year, while GM hasn't promised anything else than that the Volt would not be available until the end of 2010. And even then they don't want to release more than 10,000 of them. Which kind of tells you that they already know that they can't deliver a vehicle that works at a price that will make money for them. And this is basically the polite way of saying, "We promised to ship something, so we will, at a loss, but we won't be breaking the piggy bank for that promise":

http://www.leftlanenews.com/chevrolet-volt-to-see-limited-availability-at-launch.html

If there was need of a new definition for "squirming" it's "the reaction of General Motors to demand for anything else than a gas guzzler".

[KillTheMessenger]

So both this one and the gen 3 Prius are coming out next year while GM has already announced that they will not lose too much money on the Chevy Volt by simply not shipping too many pre-production prototypes which cost them more to make than they will sell them for:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/chevrolet-volt-to-see-limited-availability-at-launch.html

:-)

[EinChicago]

And you have a link to even so much as a concept for teh Gen 3 Pious, I take it. If so, you should send it to Toyota, they haven't seen even that much so far *gufffaw*.

[Exusian]

Let's see...., there's here:
http://carsspyphotos.com/2009-toyota-prius-3
and here:
http://www.nextautos.com/next-gen-prius-spotted-wagon-and-convertible-follow?gid=9675&nid=25334
and here:
http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=19159

Oh, and as for your assertion that Prius sold in the US are built in China, any proof?
As far as I can find out, it seesm all Prius assembled in the plant in Changchun are sold in China.

[SouthJerseySteve]

Sounds like the late 70's -- early 1980's all over again! Japanese car makers sell better hybrids and American car makers shrug their shoulders and push V-8 SUV tanks and say this hybrid car boom is a phase! WAKE UP GM, FORD, & CHRYSLER.... you won't get any bailouts from the next administration. P.S. I've driven Subarus since 1981.

[sheila]

speaking of, i've been searching for the past few years for ANY sign that subaru was gonna live up to it's "outdoorsy" brand and come with a hybrid of its own, but they aren't even close. what gives?

[KillTheMessenger]

Management not in tune with the times or Toyota not coming to terms with them about licensing their hybrid technology. You can't just build a hybrid without licensing dozens of patents. The big players have staked out that field with landmines and everyone who wants to enter needs to pay the patent extortion fees that are typical for these kinds of industries.

[JScott]

So what's the back look like and will it tow 1000 lbs. and what's the interior room like-does it have 38" of f/r headroom, 41" of front legroom and 28" of fore/aft rear seat space and at least 10 cu. ft. of trunk?

[drkazmd65]

If that's what you need day-to-day JScott - then buy an SUV and keep on paying through the nose for gasoline.

I'll be looking into one of these for my commute come 2010 when I retire my Mazda Protege.

[JScott]

Sorry the measurements given are the minimum for a decent car and even a Nissan Versa has most or exceeds some of them, that you don't need an SUV for that-do a lttle research and read Consumer Reports.

[KillTheMessenger]

If I need a car that tows anything more than a bike rack, I rent a truck for a day which costs $29.99.

:-)

[drkazmd65]

Much better made point than mine KTM - almose all the time all I need is a space for me, my briefcase, my lunchbag, a load of groceries, and a passenger or two.

This car, the Prius, a Volt, or even a Mini Cooper are more than most of us need most days.

[KillTheMessenger]

The hybrid race is on. And GM and Ford have decided to finish last.

Cool... maybe my next car will be one of these...

:-)

[EinChicago]

Ford, maybe. The Volt still outperforms this and the Pious significantly, if it performs as promised.

[KillTheMessenger]

The operative phrase is:

"if it performs as promised."

We already know that the Prius performs as promised and so did the old Insight. That leaves little doubt about the next version since it is essentially based on the same technology.

And then there is the little problem that the Volt will come in at around $40,000 while the new Insight is said to be below $20,000.

And that makes a heck of a difference for your potential market.

:-)

[mamacat]

Beautiful car, too bad they didn't make it a PHEV that can go a short range on batteries only. Toyota is supposed to be experimenting with short range PHEVs in Britain, hopefully Honda will keep up with them. Once short range PHEVs are available, we will be only one more step away from more useful midrange PHEVs.