Green Energy: Cost-Efficient Process Expected To Turn Algae Into Fuel

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First Posted: 09-28-08 06:41 PM   |   Updated: 10-29-08 05:12 AM

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Algae

BORCULO, Netherlands - Set amid cornfields and cow pastures in eastern Holland is a shallow pool that is rapidly turning green with algae, harvested for animal feed, skin treatments, biodegradable plastics -- and with increasing interest, biofuel.

In a warehouse 120 miles southwest, a bioreactor of clear plastic tubes is producing algae in pressure-cooker fashion that its manufacturer hopes will one day power jet aircraft.

Experts say it will be years, maybe a decade, before this simplest of all plants can be efficiently processed for fuel. But when that day comes, it could go a long way toward easing the world's energy needs and responding to global warming.

Algae is the slimy stuff that clouds your home aquarium and gets tangled in your feet in a lake or ocean. It can grow almost everywhere there is water and sunlight, and under the right conditions it can double its volume within hours. Scientists and industrialists agree that the potential is huge.

"This is the ultimate fast-growing organism," says Peter van den Dorpel, chief operating officer of AlgaeLink, which makes bioreactors for speeding reproduction. "Algae is lazy. It eats carbon dioxide and produces oxygen." It has no roots, no leaves, no shoots. "It grows so fast because it has nothing else to do. It just swims in the water."

Farming algae doesn't require much space or good cropland, so it avoids the fuel-for-food dilemma that has plagued first and second generation biofuels like corn, rapeseed and palm oil.

It can grow in fresh water, polluted water, sea water or farm runoff. It can purify a city's sewage while feeding on the nitrogen and phosphates in human waste.

Oil-content is high

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And it is rich in oil. The most common types farmed today have an oil content of 30 percent, and it can go up to 70 percent or more.

It also consumes nearly twice its weight in carbon dioxide, the most common greenhouse gas that is discharged by vehicles, power plants and many heavy industries and which scientists say is causing climate change.

Seeking to cut its carbon emissions, the European Union last year mandated that 20 percent of Europe's energy must come from renewable sources by 2020, up from 8.5 percent now. Originally, that plan called for a 10 percent biofuel component for road transportation, but pressure on food supplies prompted a key EU parliamentary committee to vote to scale back that target by as much as half.

Scientists estimate that airlines are to blame for at least 2 percent of man-made carbon emissions, which could be sharply reduced by algae-based aviation fuel.

One promising idea in climate change technology focuses on capturing carbon from industry and storing it harmlessly in the ground. But algae farms can put that carbon to good use.

"Capturing CO2 is the easiest element" in algae production, says Carel Callenbach, the director of Ingrepro Micro Ingredients, which operates the largest algae farms in Europe, producing 80 tons a year.

Companies have been making biodiesel from algae for years, Callenbach said, but there's no money in fuel. It is expensive to make, and so far it cannot be produced in commercial quantities like ethanol or some other biofuels.

But now, spurred by profit-busting increases in petroleum prices, Boeing and some airlines are exploring whether algae can be refined economically to a kerosene-grade fuel to run their fleets. KLM Royal Dutch Airlines has contracted with AlgaeLink and other companies to scout out prospects.

"The advantage is that it can be used in the present structure. You don't have to totally rebuild airplanes," said Nanke Kramer, a KLM spokeswoman. She said KLM has no results yet from its initial experiments, and it is too early to say whether aviation fuel will be feasible or when the first flight tests would take place.

Rene Wijffels, a professor of bioprocess engineering at Wageningen University and Research Center in the Dutch town of Wageningen, said he did a feasibility study last year for an energy company on algae for fuel, and was surprised by the results.

"We did not believe it would ever be possible for energy production," he told The Associated Press. "We found the costs were high but not as high as we thought." At $3.20 per pound, he said, "it was too expensive for a biofuel -- but not that far away."

Biofuel production is shackled by two factors: the limited availability of nutrients, and an unfavorable energy balance. "If you use the present technology, you will put in more energy than you get out," Wijffels said.

Those problems can be solved, but it will take time and investment, he said.

The Netherlands, a country twice the size of Massachusetts, has long been ahead in farming technology and has one of the world's highest crop yields. With as many barnyard animals as its 16 million people, it is the world's second largest exporter of agricultural products after the United States.

At Ingrepro's algae farm in Borculo near the border with Germany, the scum from the 21,500 square foot pool is filtered and processed into flaky green strips that crumble to the touch. The carbon exhaust from the steam engine used to dry the algae is pumped back into the pool.

Algae oil goes into paints, resins and bioplastics. Fuel has the lowest value of any product, said Callenbach. The key to profiting from algae farming is in the cake left over after extracting the oil. Ingrepro turns it into dozens of products, from horse feed to weed killer for golf courses. As a food additive for humans, it is a source of healthy omega-3 fatty acids.

AlgaeLink, by contrast, sells bioreactors rather than algae products. It nurtures the algae in a closed and controlled environment of clear tubes, speeding the reproductive process by two to four times as the water turns darker almost before your eyes.

But the process requires much more energy than open pools.

Van den Dorpel says making jet fuel will be viable within a few years if petroleum prices stay above $100 a barrel. Callenbach says algae fuel may be profitable in about five years.

Wijffels is skeptical. "Five years? I'm a little more pessimistic than that. But maybe that's the role of a scientist."

BORCULO, Netherlands - Set amid cornfields and cow pastures in eastern Holland is a shallow pool that is rapidly turning green with algae, harvested for animal feed, skin treatments, biodegradable pla...
BORCULO, Netherlands - Set amid cornfields and cow pastures in eastern Holland is a shallow pool that is rapidly turning green with algae, harvested for animal feed, skin treatments, biodegradable pla...
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- juangault I'm a Fan of juangault 3 fans permalink

One of the key neccessities to alternative energy, particularly transportation, is to keep it simple. The more infrastructure, factories, refineries, pipelines, supertankers, tankertrucks, middlemen, gas stations, politicians, armies, and foreign countries there are, the more expensive and complicated things get. Add exponential greed of all involved, and you have what we are experiencing today.

I had an idea the other day, that if the big auto makers did offer an electric vehicle, with a 25 mile battery pack, and room for a generator, then the effort to make one's own power could be personalized. In the early years of autos, there were steam and electricity powered vehicles. Americans like big cars and trucks, and the non-dependence on fuel may even more important than the price. So the next step is to get an electric-b­atterypack powered pickup, and let backyard mechanics put a steam driven generator in the bed. Take a chainsaw and wood chipper along and run the thing on dead wood and water. Might work outside the city, especially in Washington or Oregon. Not an answer for everyone obviously, but quite a conversation starter at the diner.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:56 PM on 10/01/2008
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Okay I'm going to avoid the name calling and lay this out as simple as possible.
All forms of photosynthetic biofuels are highly unlikely to provide any more than trivial benefits for a society with an energy use profile like ours. The are limited by the inherent low conversion efficiencies for photosynthetic plants which are typically well under 1%. PSB's are FAR inferior to many existing options including conservation, photovoltaics or wind energy and are almost certain to remain so for any forseeable future.

Anyone who asserts otherwise should be expected to show it using specific real world physics based calculations which I assert CANNOT BE DONE. (and which in fact no one in this thread is actually doing).

Arm waving and daydreams and name calling will not change the above facts. That is all.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:56 AM on 10/01/2008
- drewbob I'm a Fan of drewbob 4 fans permalink
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WRONG! You can tell im serious because I used all caps. What everyone refuses to talk about is how effective hemp is for biofuel production. Pure bio diesel can be squeezed from the hemp seed ready to go into engines at the rate of 80 barrels per acre. All of the biomass can then be used to make methanol, another efficient bio fuel. The roots penetrate up to 6 feet deep to aerate the soil and makes it ideal for crop rotation. 6% of U.S. land devoted to hemp could eliminate our dependance on foreign oil. Want your resources? They're all there http://hemp4fuel.com/link.html . I accept you apology. Its ok, you just didnt know.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:14 PM on 10/01/2008
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No apologies. Not one single calculation on energy yields to be expected from an acre of hemp.(or if they have they have it buried) This is a particular sore point as it's the primary limiting factor on PSB's. And do you really believe it's practical to plant 227,000 sq. mi. of the USA with hemp?

Also not one calculation of the EROI, which I find hard to believe is going to be vastly greater than the many PSBs that have been tried, or that it's conversion efficiency is vastly greater either as biochemically, its just another weed.
In any event you can gain more energy simply mowing down the hemp and dumping in into a conventional steam driven power generator for electricity and avoiding extracting the oil, which has only fraction of the plant's total energy .

Mankind has been using 'biofuels' for millenia. Chopping down trees. The most energy intensive culture to use that method was the Roman empire and they still required animal and human power. The industrial revolution started when we began tapping into fossil fuels.

Look you can gush over 1%-2% solutions all you want. (with the lousy EROIs of biofuels thats the most we can expect out of them.) I'm more interested in the potential 50% reductions we can make with greater efficiency, lifestyle changes and redesigning society to NOT REQUIRE SO MANY CARS. The energy we DON'T produce will ALWAYS be cheaper,simpler, and greener than ANY form of energy we do.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:43 PM on 10/01/2008
- ferky123 I'm a Fan of ferky123 8 fans permalink
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One of the ways to make algae farming more economical is to bioengineer the algae so that way when the algae reaches a certain amount of oil then it puts the rest in the water so that it can justt be skimmed off. That would make the costs associated with algae farming minimal as all you would need to farm it for fuel would bee a tank of some king and a skimmer like they have at wastewater treatment plants. The electricity to power the skimmer could come from solar power so most of the cost would be up front with some going for maintenance.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:32 PM on 09/30/2008
- BlackTom I'm a Fan of BlackTom 10 fans permalink

Wow, KillTheMessenger, maybe some deep breathing would help.

Your anti-potential- algal-fuels ranting sounds JUST like the anti-solar , anti-wind crowd yakking.

Your argument seems to be, "don't even think about it". But, thinking is a good thing. Acting is even better, as you say.

Everyone I have heard discuss alternative (to petroleum) energy says the same thing: it will take a mix of conservation, PV, Wind, CNG, Hydrogen, and everything else that we can come up with to provide a replacement for the current petroleum addiction. Many add nukes to the mix, and hope that someday we can beat the waste issue.

A Bay Area company, Solazyme, was featured in the Sundance doc. Fields of Fuel, showing the algae to bio-diesel cycle at their plant, and inked a deal with Chevron during the film festival.

This is an EMERGING TECHNOLOGY, not currently a panacea, and no one is saying it is - yet.
However, it's not too hard to learn about what is going on - and there is a lot going on.

http://gas2.org/2008/01/22/chevron-backs-solazymes-algae-biodiesel-production-process-video/

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/23/BU58UJRM3.DTL

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9727005-7.html

http://venturebeat.com/2008/06/10/algal-fuel-maker-aurora-biofuels-takes-on-20m/

http://earth2tech.com/2008/03/27/15-algae-startups-bringing-pond-scum-to-fuel-tanks/

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:32 PM on 09/30/2008

If you had read my posts, you would have seen that I consistently elaborate on the real world potential of solar energy. I am all for it. It's the way to go.

But I don't think you ever read my posts. Did you?

As far as "emerging technologies" go, as a physicist I do not tend to believe in the ones that don't even pass the laugh test. And algae, at this time, certainly don't. Decades from now? Maybe. But then they will have to compete with 40-50% efficient solar cells (yes, we know theoretically how to make those and we will be making them at some point in large quantities) and that just does not sound like something biology will be able to do.

And thanks for the corporate advertisement. But no thanks. I won't invest.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:04 PM on 09/30/2008
- BlackTom I'm a Fan of BlackTom 10 fans permalink

I wouldn't have advised you to relax, if I had not read your irrational posts.

"As a physicist", you employ a "laugh test" ? I can't recall that being part of the scientific method. I also fail to recollect that part of science that requires "belief in" anything. Results that can be duplicated are the normal standard of evidence.

If you "theoretically" know how to make efficient solar cells, and "believe" that someday we will make them, I fail to see how this shaky claim is any improvement on the ideas you are criticizing. How many decades away is this emerging technology? Have you built even one of the cells yet? If not, then algae is ahead in this game.

Biology is very good at making things in large quantities. See petroleum for an example.

Finally, I have zero ties to any of the organizations whose links I posted. I just wanted to provide a little objective evidence that algal fuel companies are indeed securing investment capital, and that the one company I mentioned did strike a deal with Chevron, which seems to indicate a potential for manufacturing and distribution.

PS- I have very high hopes for solar solutions, but until you realize that solar is but one aspect of a multi-pronged approach to ending the current role of petroleum, you will feel justified in abusing anyone who sees things differently.

Your ranting makes you sound like an agent provocateur for the oil companies.
Or just another control freak.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:15 PM on 09/30/2008
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 141 fans permalink

I doubt he is a physicist when he says that algae "don't" pass the laugh test. Killthemessenger being a physicist does not pass the laugh test.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:33 PM on 09/30/2008
- rshrink I'm a Fan of rshrink 48 fans permalink

I think we have to be suspicious of people who try to disprove that something works that has already been proven to work. Historically, with research and effort, things improve. That has proven to be the case with nearly everything. When that doesn't happen, it is because people are invested in keeping things as they are. It is as simple as that.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:26 PM on 09/29/2008

Completely agree. But how does it apply to algae which so far have not been proven to work?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:05 PM on 09/30/2008
- rshrink I'm a Fan of rshrink 48 fans permalink

I don't think Koch Industries would be spending so much money on this if they did not see potential for profit. Koch is not a philanthropic organization. It is part of the energy industry and making money is important to them, so pessimism isn't so much at work here. I also think that solar is important. I recently heard that if solar was built into a space station that trapping and sending that energy from space would be so effective that it might provide about all the energy that is necessary, so there is another thing to look into. In Australia, there is a company that is building solar towers. One tower can provide as much as a coal plant and is will operate 24/7 due to heat storage when the sun is out. It's all good and likely we will need many sources, which is okay. Don't think we should get stuck on one thing. We need back up measures taken.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:31 PM on 09/30/2008
- BlackTom I'm a Fan of BlackTom 10 fans permalink

Cars are running on algal bio-diesel right now. It has been proven to work. The next step is mass production. The fun thing about this technology is that it can be set up anywhere. Small towns can have their own production facilities, and no need for pipelines or tankers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:19 PM on 09/30/2008

This is one part of a process to run a hdrocarbon assisted "closed loop" cycle with ZERO emissions.

Best work to date is a ceramic turbine (japan) - Waste Heat used for Hydrogen production (Germany)
and high CO2 eating, O2 producing - algae.

A "closed loop" ceramic turbine system can run at 20% O2 and 80% CO2.

There are 300,000 different types of algae. Many double in size in less than one minute, especially in a high CO2 atmosphere. Currently it takes 3 acres of greenhouse (biological scrubbers) to close loop a 1 megawatt turbine running gasified coal. Research should be able to bring this down substantially.

Until there is a substantial carbon tax (35 cents per pound - $700 per ton) - none of this will ever happen.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:50 PM on 09/29/2008

Cool. Now put it all together and become a billionaire. After all, it all sounds so easy. You just proved in less than 250 words how it works. I just wonder why several decades of real research have not been able to accomplish any of what you are talking about? I guess the people who are doing these things in the real world are just not as smart as the next best blogger... right?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:07 PM on 09/30/2008
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 141 fans permalink

I don't like the tax implications of being a billionaire!! Otherwise, no problem.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:27 PM on 09/30/2008

Typical "change the game" tactic. 1. Argue that it's scientifically impossible. 2. Once totally bashed on 1, admit that it might be theoretically possible, but it's economically unfeasible. 3. When shown that it could be economically feasible, demand that someone else make a company out of it, and then hand you stock in it, so that you finally will get "convinced".

KTM, you're a BS'er, plain and simple. Who DO you work for?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:43 PM on 09/30/2008
- Bocado I'm a Fan of Bocado 4 fans permalink

This shouldn't come as any surprise to us then...
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2008/06/30/bush-epa-suppression/

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:31 PM on 09/29/2008

Rooftop PV solar is clearly the only way to proceed, as KillTheMessenger notes. Even without any additional research, PV solar can be had for as cheaply as $6000-$1000 per KW of capacity.

The sun shines, on average, for half the day, which means that a 1KW PV panel should be able to produce a minimum of 12KWh, every day, throughout the year, at the bargain price of $6000. (There's a lot of sarcasm in the above sentences, for those who didn't notice).

In petroleum alone, the US consumes 35.19 TWH/day of oil (see my post below, if it ever does post).
TWH is Tera-Watt-Hours, or Trillion Watt-hours, or Billion KWH.
((35,190,000,000 kWh/day)/(­12kWh/day)­) * $6000 = ???

Clearly, PV solar is the way to go. It would only cost about $17,000 TRILLION to capture energy that is useless in vehicles without some kind of battery storage, which, of course, KTM is willing to supply for free (along with the mass-nullificator that eliminates the effect of having to cart around all that weight).

I guess we'll make up the losses in volume?

Not to dis PV solar, it's a great solution for ELECTRICITY generation for non-mobile use. It's just a lousy fuel substitute. Wind is better, because when you run out of gas, you could hoist a sail on the roof of your car.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:30 PM on 09/29/2008

Bwahhaaahh­haahahaahh­hahah... you are so funny.

First of all, I never said that rooftop PV is the ONLY way to go. Strawman ablaze!

At a good site the average power output is roughly 20% of the peak output. So a 1kW panel produces 200W on average. I did not know that being wrong about the numbers is part of sarcasm...

The US consumes roughly 20 million barrels of oil a day. A barrel has a useful energy content of 1000kWh when converted in a modern power plant. So that's about 20TWh per day. But when you put it onto your car, you get at best something like 5% out of it (after refining losses and engine efficiency). So we only need roughly 1TWh for electrical transportation. We can further save half of that by putting more than one person in a vehicle and by driving shorter distances, eliminating trucks in favor of electric freight trains, etc. So we really only need 0.5TWh. That's 500GW. And that is approx. 400-500 conventional power plants.

Now, how much does it cost to make 1W continuous with solar energy? Approx. $20 at current cost and probably around $10 in the near future.

And that means we have to throw approx. $5 trillion at it. Over 25 years. That's $200 billion per year. We are spending approx. $600 billion per year on oil imports alone.

Wow... I guess that oil is at least three times as expensive as solar energy, isn't it?

;-)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:21 PM on 09/29/2008

$20 at current cost, and $10 in the "near future"???? WOW! That sounds great! Got a link? I'm not as interested in the $20 version, but that $10 stuff that is "in the near future" sounds like something I could go for! It's going to be available soon, right? Can you post a link to the CEO's statement?.

Of course, the fact that it's all smoke, provided by tKTM, who hates smoke so much, is irrelevant.

Put up a link for $20/watt solar power, installed, available commercially.

Of course, your argument assumes that we can reduce our OIL CONSUMPTION from 35 TW/day to 0.5TW/day, and I guess solar gets all the credit for that?

Stop spouting this garbage.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:45 PM on 09/29/2008

Yeah, my sarcasm gave you the BENEFIT, and therefore you choose to ridicule that? I gave you incredibly generous numbers, but apparently that fact was lost on you.

Also, where do you come up with 1000kWh for a barrel of oil? I provided a citation that puts it more like 1700kWh, which is a significant difference. Got a citation to back up your numbers?

And "When you put it in a car you get like 5 per-cent" ????? Where does that come from? It conveniently allows you to divide the amount of energy really needed by a factor of 20 - without any comment about the efficiency of YOUR solution.

"Now, how much does it cost to make 1W continuous with solar energy? Approx. $20 at current cost and probably around $10 in the near future. " YOUR words. Ridiculous at best. (And by sarcasm, what I really am trying to say, in the politest manner I can, is that you are spewing total and deliberate misinformation, and doing your best to distort the truth). Do you really want to hear the "non-sarcastic" version? I doubt HuffPo would let it post.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:07 PM on 09/29/2008

The US government should be investing heavily in these technologies if only for carbon sequestration. The added pluses are fuel and the biomass left over.

Corn gets about 5 billion a year in subsidies, why not this.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:55 AM on 09/29/2008

Because this is even worse than corn.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:33 PM on 09/29/2008
- jubal8 I'm a Fan of jubal8 6 fans permalink

Yeah, corn sucks. You're right, KTM, solar and wind are the only way. Now if we could use wind turbines to capture the energy of the wind passing over a fast moving car and turn that into energy to drive the car, that would be something.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:56 PM on 09/29/2008
- Myshkin57 I'm a Fan of Myshkin57 16 fans permalink

Why is this worse than corn?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:48 PM on 09/29/2008

Of course, Kill The Messenger, any thought of Bio solutions really scuttles your butt, which is why you need to respond to nearly every post on every blog about algae.

For those with an open mind, here's some links that might help you evaluate algae:
US consumes 20.7Mbbl/day of oil: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption
1 bbl = 1.70 MWh of energy
That's 35.19 TWH/day of energy.
Insolation of horizontal plate in great lakes is > 3KWh/m*m/day (lowest in US, except Alaska)
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/atlas/

35.19 TWH/3KWH/m*m = 11730Mm*m = 4529 mi*mi
(Conversions suppled by:http://www.onlineconversion.com )
Efficiency of Photosynthesis: 6.6% http://www.upei.ca/~physics/p261/Content/Sources_Conversion/Photo-_synthesis/photo-_synthesis.htm

4529/.066 = 68,621 mi*mi Area needed for photosynthesis of 35.19 TWh/day

Area of Great Lakes: 95,000 mi*mi.
http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/namerica/greatlk.htm

Total US Farm Area: 936.6Macres, 1.4M mi*mi

http://deltafarmpress.com/mag/farming_us_farm_acreage/

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:58 PM on 09/29/2008
- rshrink I'm a Fan of rshrink 48 fans permalink

car wouldn't even run on corn, so apparently, you are wrong.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:23 PM on 09/29/2008
- rshrink I'm a Fan of rshrink 48 fans permalink

You are right. Problems get solved when they are faced. We need to face the problem and get to work. There are so many things available now and many which are being used on a small scale. I make my own fuel out of soy oil. It costs about $1.25 a gallon. My mechanic keeps telling me it won't work. I just keep the secret from him and my other friend who has been using it for four years does as well. Some people just don't accept change.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:24 PM on 09/29/2008
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Haven't you heard? This administration does not believe in science.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:13 PM on 09/29/2008
- NL207 I'm a Fan of NL207 8 fans permalink

""If you use the present technology, you will put in more energy than you get out," Wijffels said"

Where do you huffers find these nincompoops. This guy says this as if someday it will not be true. Shocker: If you use any future technology, you will put in more energy than you get out. This is an inescapable outcome of the laws of thermodynamics.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:39 AM on 09/29/2008

You can find "future solutions" being discussed all over the blogosphere and especially in the energy/ecology subculture. Few people are really interested in reality. They want entertainment. Green goo that makes oil or hydrogen is entertainment for them. That it's about as much of a non-starter as a bat-mobile and wings to fight crime in an urban environment does not matter. "Batman" beats "Cops" 1000:1 at the box office. Same here. Instead of going to the department store to replace their old, inefficient fridge with a new, energy efficient model, people like to read about super-algae saving the world once more from itself.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:58 AM on 09/29/2008
- jubal8 I'm a Fan of jubal8 6 fans permalink

You're missing the point that the algae is putting energy into the process and they are not counting that in the human-side energy input/output formula.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:41 PM on 09/29/2008
- BlackTom I'm a Fan of BlackTom 10 fans permalink

"Few people are really interested in reality. They want entertainment. "

You are projecting here.

I have seen no postings to justify this statement, other than your own.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:53 PM on 09/30/2008

Yes, his statment is fluff.
The question is how much energy goes into getting our current sources of energy?

If we can get the amount of energy needed to produce 1kw of energy from algae produced in my city to being less then the amount of energy we need to get 1kw of energy from imported oil (from manufacture to disposal for each)... then we have a winner.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:27 PM on 09/29/2008

Except that you have a loser with this one. We can save more energy by conservation than by hoping for esoteric non-starter solutions to come trough.

We know perfectly well how to produce clean energy. It's wind turbines and photovoltaics. We can ramp production of both up to the point where maybe 30% of our primary energy production could come from these sources by 2040-2050. And we can save approx. 30% of the energy we are wasting right now by simple life style changes that won't hurt much. And putting both together will amount to real solutions. It's just not nearly as romantic to talk about CFLs and energy efficient refrigerators than about super-algae.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:41 PM on 09/29/2008
- rshrink I'm a Fan of rshrink 48 fans permalink

I don't think anything that is renewable should be ruled out at this point. Germany has already reached 30% of energy derived from solar. They have achieved that mostly due to changing policies. Likely, success will result from use of many different ideas including conservation. All of this will require leaders who will promote this, which pretty much rules out the republican party.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:18 PM on 09/29/2008
- NL207 I'm a Fan of NL207 8 fans permalink

" then we have a winner."

If that were true, we'd have no shortage of private investors willing to risk their own capital. Since this is not happening, we can safely conclude this is an uneconomic solution, a "loser". The application of government force will not improve these economics, it will only further distort the market and dissipate precious resources wastefully.

The sponsor of this plan above is KLM, the Dutch Airline. The only reason they are interested is their application is aviation, which is not amenable to non-fuel options.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:08 PM on 09/29/2008
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 141 fans permalink

The same argument holds true for shale oil. More energy is used to heat the rock and extraction of the shale oil than can be gotten from the shale oil itself. It all depends what our priorities are in terms of spending.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:39 PM on 09/29/2008
- NL207 I'm a Fan of NL207 8 fans permalink

Once again you are simply wrong.

Shale oil contains more energy than is required to recover it. It is not as cheap as traditional crude oil, but unlike this algae technology, it yields more energy than is invested in its production:

"Reported EROIs (energy return on investments) are generally in the range of 1.5:1 to 4:1, with a few extreme values between 7:1 and 13:1." source: http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3839

Shell Oil's in situ retorting process reportedly has an EROI of 3.5. Source: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_4051709,00.html

How can you have an informed opinion if your are so misinformed?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:37 PM on 09/29/2008
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 141 fans permalink

To produce 100,000 barrels a day would require raising the temperature of 700,000,000,000 pounds of shale by 700 degrees F. How much power would be needed? A gigabunch"in rough numbers, about $500,000,000 per year. The least expensive source for electricity is a coal-fired power plant. How much coal, how many power plants? To produce 100,000 barrels per day, the RAND Corporation recently estimated that Shell will need to construct the largest power plant in Colorado history, large enough to serve a city of 500,000. This power plant, costing about $3 billion, would consume five million tons of coal each year, producing ten million tons of greenhouse gases, some of which would still be in the atmosphere a century from now."

http://www.aspencore.org/images/pdf/OilShale.pdf

How much of these enormous costs will be subsidized by taxpayers?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:30 PM on 09/30/2008

Talk about going green. Hopefully these endeavors will be our childrens solutions. I wish it would be a focus of all western and world goverments to support and encourage these kinds of scientific and innovative ideas.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:43 AM on 09/29/2008
- delvis I'm a Fan of delvis 34 fans permalink
photo

i agree we need more government involvement especially in the universities

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:33 AM on 09/29/2008

Instead of hoping for your solution for your children, it would be better to implement the real ones for ourselves: energy conservation, wind energy and rooftop solar. We have what it takes, except for one thing: the willingness to put our money where our mouth is.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:51 AM on 09/29/2008
- JFB I'm a Fan of JFB 4 fans permalink

Here is a fine film clip of the Hungarian scientist, Alfonz Viszolay, who lives in Santa Fe and is a pioneer in algae production. This is well worth checking out.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ8kVg_RiJM&eurl=http://www.ecoversity.org/movies/algae_movies_and_slideshows.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:07 AM on 09/29/2008
- zaz33 I'm a Fan of zaz33 32 fans permalink

I read a piece recently about experiments in the USA also. Plastic bags on moveable racks. The racks rotate the algae to the sun light. Algae uses far less water and doesn't use productive farm land. This is very good news.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:10 AM on 09/29/2008

Yes, bags of "greenhouse plastic" on racks, or even on the ground in supporting trenches are looking very strong. The "Rack" approach is used to turn the bags sideways (so the water flows vertically rather than horizontally) because most algae hit their maximum productivity at about 10 per-cent of full sunlight. It does need a lot of racks, however. Other options include just deeper water, circulated, or "run-and-rest" (where the algae goes through shallow trenches at full sunlight, then into deeper pools to cool off).

Doesn't need a lot of infrastructure, since the tubes are supported by properly trenching the ground underneath them (the plastic contains the water, but it's the ground that actually supports the weight).

Greenhouse plastic is readily available in large tubes and easily recyclable, and it allows large-scale bioreactors to be constructed that avoid the problems of external contamination and evaporation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:49 AM on 09/30/2008

Which AP reporter wrote this piece?

The word "algae" is plural. The AP reporter used the term as a singular noun throughout the article. "Alga" is singular.

Algae was also used by this reporter as an adjective. The adjectival form is algal.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:31 PM on 09/28/2008
- OldKnute I'm a Fan of OldKnute 100 fans permalink

Soooooo?

Knute told our kids to get large glass jar, put a tiny amount of river mud in the bottom, fill the jar with clean river water, sit in a window and blow in the water a few times a day, through a straw.

And make,,,, FISH FOOD,,,, from your expelled breath.

And I was called a fool????? Excuse me, we were doing this same experiment in grade school in 1955.

Now!!!

Gather 10 acres of jars and attach them to any COAL Burning Power Plant. Oh and, you can process, replenish raw materials and transport to processingall this product,,,, as a LIQUID.

You can PIPE IT to processing. How do the children say it???


NO! DUH!

All the best

Knute Neo-LIB

PS!

Here is how they said it when I was a child.

Nyaaaa nyanna nya Nyaaaaaaaaaa. Told you so!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:12 PM on 09/28/2008
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