Central Arkansas University Shooting Leaves Two Dead, One Injured

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JON GAMBRELL | October 27, 2008 05:55 PM EST | AP

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A student who did not want to be identified walks past the scene of a fatal shooting that occured late Sunday in front of Arkansas Hall at the University of Central Arkansas in Conway, Ark., Monday, Oct. 27, 2008. (AP Photo/Danny Johnston)

CONWAY, Ark. — A shooting that left two students dead at the University of Central Arkansas did not appear to be random, authorities said Monday as the school's president pronounced the campus secure.

Three people are being questioned but no one has been charged in Sunday night's shooting, which wounded a third person at the 12,500-student campus.

Though investigators have not determined a motive for the shooting, "It does not seem at this time that it was a random act," campus police Lt. Preston Grumbles said.

Interim president Tom Courtway canceled classes Monday but said they would resume Tuesday. "Our campus is safe," he said.

The victims were shot in an alley between a dormitory and the Snow Fine Arts Center. One victim died on the sidewalk; police said the others rushed into the dorm, where paramedics found them.

Freshman T.J. Frix said he heard five gunshots as he studied for a communication exam in his dorm room.

"I was like, 'Maybe it's just fireworks,'" the 18-year-old said.

But soon, two bleeding men lay in the hallway right outside his room. Frix said he saw the surviving victim writhing on the floor in pain from his leg wound. Two resident advisers performed CPR on the other man before paramedics rushed into the dorm, Frix said.

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"I was trying to call 911, but I was shaking too bad so I couldn't," Frix said. He said the resident advisers "both handled it really well. They stepped into action while everyone else" panicked.

Other resident advisers surrounded the rescuers to keep onlookers back, said Jeremy Rucker, a 20-year-old junior who saw the wounded men in the dorm.

University police Lt. Rhonda Swindle said one person being questioned turned himself in and another was pulled over by police. A university statement late Monday afternoon said a third suspect had been detained, but did not elaborate.

Swindle identified the dead as Ryan Henderson, 18, and Chavares Block, 19 _ both students. A non-student, Martrevis Norman of Blytheville, was shot in one leg and was released from a hospital after treatment.

"This is just an awful tragedy. It's the worst thing that can happen on a college campus," said Courtway, the interim president. "We have start looking at everything."

Late Monday morning, blood could still be seen on the sidewalk of the alley where the shootings occurred. A male student wept at the otherwise empty crime scene.

The rest of the campus was quiet as police cars cruised the streets and officers roamed the grounds in flak jackets and blue jeans.

Students planned a candlelight vigil Monday night to remember the slain students. Block was a sophomore pre-engineering major; Henderson was a freshman undecided about what he wanted to major in.

Henderson "was a real quiet guy. He got along with everybody," Rucker said. "That would be the last thing I would expect to happen to him."

Student Aprille Hanson, 20, of Mountain Home, said the shooting was "definitely an eye-opener" in the quiet city of Conway, about 30 miles north of Little Rock.

"This campus is very safe. I've never felt afraid on this campus," Hanson said. "Everyone's going to be a little more tense."

Faculty and students received calls and e-mails through an automated system shortly after 9:30 p.m. Sunday warning them of the shooting and urging them to stay inside behind locked doors.

School spokesman Warwick Sabin said it was the first use of the university's new emergency e-mail and phone call system, purchased last year after a gunman at Virginia Tech killed 32 people and himself.

Swindle said investigators would examine video captured by surveillance cameras, which also were installed after the Virginia Tech massacre.

Courtway said he thought police officers and the university's emergency alert system performed well, but he promised to conduct a thorough examination of the shooting to ensure students' safety.

It was the second shooting at an Arkansas college this year. On Feb. 27, a man was wounded at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock. Two suspects were charged. The victim, James Earl Matthews, was released after surgery.

___

On the Net:

University of Central Arkansas: http://www.uca.edu

CONWAY, Ark. — A shooting that left two students dead at the University of Central Arkansas did not appear to be random, authorities said Monday as the school's president pronounced the campus s...
CONWAY, Ark. — A shooting that left two students dead at the University of Central Arkansas did not appear to be random, authorities said Monday as the school's president pronounced the campus s...
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- Salz08 I'm a Fan of Salz08 4 fans permalink

This is a tragedy, plain and simple. I do not know why people have to jump to conclusions and pound them out on their keyboard. None of us have any idea the whys or whats of this sad incident.

We do not know if drugs or gangs were involved, so why invoke that in a response?

Violence happens. It happens in places that should be safe, such as college campuses, middle schools, department stores, eateries and public parks. It happens much more often in private residences. We have a much sharper focus when it happens in so-called 'safe' places, but it happens every where, every day. No matter the circumstances or inciting factors, it is a sad statement as to human nature.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:19 AM on 10/27/2008
- Kassandra I'm a Fan of Kassandra 96 fans permalink
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Don't blame this on the feminine side of the equation. I notice when something goes horribly wrong, it's always Human nature or humanity. when something goes right, it's always Mankind.

As we used to say in the good ol' feminist days of yore, "It's not all men, but it's always men"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:34 AM on 10/27/2008
- Salz08 I'm a Fan of Salz08 4 fans permalink

Excuse me? Where was I blaming the feminine side of the equation? I have long used the term humankind or human nature as gender neutral. I do not use the term mankind at all and have not for many decades.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:10 PM on 10/27/2008
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I'm from Arkansas and I didn't think this would make the national news. To outsiders we Arkansans probably seem like a violent state with the brutal beating death of Anne Pressly and now this.

This was probably some gang or drug related incident. My condolences go out to the families.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:13 AM on 10/27/2008
- wolfgangmo I'm a Fan of wolfgangmo 21 fans permalink
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Mine too. Violent death is often senseless. Sigh.

America has a problem with gun violence and with prison rates tho'.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:01 PM on 10/27/2008

Another campus shooting at a Southern university, why am I not surprised. The radical NRA is yet supporting another fringe group, Students for Concealed Carry on Campus (SCCC), which is advocating that every college student have the right to carry a concealed handgun, with the rational that during the Virginia Tech shooting rampage the students could have fought back. That’s an interesting point, considering that every student carrying a cancelled weapon on campus knew how to use it, and many won’t, exspeally in a state where you can walk into a liquor/pawn/gun store and buy 2 semi automatic hand guns with 4 18 round mags, no questions asked. What will happen when 2 armed guys get their backs up at a frat party, or someone feels threatened, yet isn’t? I have 3 friends who are police officers, one in NYC, one a State Trooper and the last a police chief in the town in which I grew up, all conservative, yet not one of them would support a concealed carry law. The question must be asked, if states adopted this type legislation, which has already been passed is the case in FL, the wing nuts there with the help of the NRA are trying to sue Disney so Mickey Mouse for instance can be armed, in violation of Disney’s private property rights, will parents allow there children to attend colleges, or even Disney Land in such states?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:07 AM on 10/27/2008
- 1will I'm a Fan of 1will 34 fans permalink

Great points. You've certainly convinced me. The gun bans obviously worked very well at this college, Va Tech and NIU. On the other hand Utah allows students to carry concealed yet they've never had any massacres. Hmmm.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:29 AM on 10/27/2008
- Sparhawk I'm a Fan of Sparhawk 14 fans permalink

Now now...don'­t confuse the simple-minded with logic and common sense..:)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:46 AM on 10/27/2008
- PengieP I'm a Fan of PengieP 5 fans permalink
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The idea that carrying a handgun will protect you is indicative of someone with little or no combat arms training and head full of nonsense. The fact is that without at least constant situational awareness and combat arms training, carrying a handgun is likely to get you INTO trouble rather than get you out of trouble. If you don't know why, then you are definitely one of the people who should NOT carry. Just buying a damn gun is contributing to the problem UNLESS you are going to go and get properly trained on how and when to use it. Frankly, I think a rigorous certified combat arms course should be mandatory for anyone with a carry permit.

Use your head- for starters in almost every "situation", the bad guy is going to get the drop on you and force you to react where you DON'T have control. You are already starting from tactical disadvantage and lives are on the line. Not a good thing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:58 AM on 10/27/2008
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yet

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:28 AM on 10/27/2008

All my cop friends well tell you the same thing, if you pull it, know how to use it, because the bad guys will take it away from you and stick down your big mouth. My brother-in-law who grew up in suburbia never held or fired gun in his life, yet I hear the same 2nd Amendment BS form him. For the unenlightened, Amendments to the Constitution need a super majority of the states to change a point the NRA leaves out of it direct mail which tells me there agenda is more partisan than truthful.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:58 PM on 10/27/2008
- molonlabe I'm a Fan of molonlabe 15 fans permalink

Wow.

Although you are trying your damndest, all of your hoplophobic hypotheticals simply cannot hide the fact that these high profile shootings are occuring in "GUN FREE ZONES."

V-tech, NIU, Trolley Square Mall, Kirkwood MO, Lancaster PA, Ward Parkway Center (Kansas City), Westroads Mall (Omaha)...­all "gun free zones."

The list goes on and on.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:36 AM on 10/27/2008
- wolfgangmo I'm a Fan of wolfgangmo 21 fans permalink
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Wait a minute. You are right. There is a trend here. All of these shooting happened in America and no amount of equivocation can change that fact. In fact further investigation seems to indicate that there were Walmarts within 5 miles of all of these shootings which is an obvious connection. OMG. That means that we need to forcibly arm all citizens. I would suggest a combination of a .22 snubnose, a .357 magnum, a shotgun and an AR-15 just for flexibilit­y... Oh, and we all need to form up militias and attack the nearest Walmarts. They cannot be allowed to just be there when our kids are killed.

Of course this might be sarcasm, but I would like to point out that the logic of your post seems a little lacking. The fact that they all happened in "gun free zones" has no more meaning than they happened in America or near anything else. If you are going to rant, at least have a point.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:08 PM on 10/27/2008
- pokemon I'm a Fan of pokemon 16 fans permalink
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Who needs a CCDW, as long as it is not concealed you can go Dirty Harry with a 44Mag on your side.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:16 AM on 10/27/2008

BP

Actually the Students for Concealed Carry on Campus support licensed concealed carry on campus not unlicensed or unrestricted carry. In order to get a CHL, there is training and a background check required in every state (48 of of 50) that allows them.

Now, as far as the rest of your rant let's look at it.

You obviously have never purchased a firearm. To do so from an FFL there is a page long form of questions you have to fill out. Also, a NICS background check is run through a Federal database.

In addition, buying more than one handgun at a time flags you and that will be reported as a multiple purchase.

What is a "cancelled weapon"?

As far as LEOs (I am one BTW) supporting concealed carry, you need to get out more. The Law Enforcement Association of America supports concealed carry, for example. Many LEOs believe the average person can be trusted to act responsible when handling firearms.

http://www.leaa.org/righttocarry.html

I hope you are smarter than your post appears.

Michael

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:15 PM on 10/27/2008
- EmilyU I'm a Fan of EmilyU 4 fans permalink
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"What will happen when 2 armed guys get their backs up at a frat party, or someone feels threatened, yet isn"t?"

Ah yes, the "Wild West" argument. The same argument has been trotted out by gun controllers for the last decade to try to defeat concealed carry laws. And to date, it has yet to occur.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:08 PM on 10/27/2008

"An officer heard the shots and police were at the scene in less than a minute." Very quick response time, impressive. http://specialreport.com/university-of-central-arkansas-shooting/

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:05 AM on 10/27/2008

Yeah this doesn't sound like a random shooting. It is still a terrible tragedy but this type of stuff happens in just about every mid-size city almost nightly.
- - - -
http://www.sumcontent.com

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:04 AM on 10/27/2008
- Hare I'm a Fan of Hare 29 fans permalink
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My heart goes out to the families of these students. This is a tragedy that reaches new depths in the consciousness of humanity each time it happens. When the young die, potential of what could have been dies with them. The question lingers. How this world could have been different if they could have been here and get a chance at life? Very sad indeed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:03 AM on 10/27/2008

Where is the 'crackhead' that said drug use is a victimless crime?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:55 AM on 10/27/2008
- qdog112 I'm a Fan of qdog112 68 fans permalink
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Where in the world did you find "drug use" in the blog? Are you on the pipe?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:09 AM on 10/27/2008

Central Arkansas University is, as far as I know, a "gun free" zone. So, the average student and professors (unless they are also LEOs) are prohibited by law from carrying firearms for self-defense. So, the shooter knew that it was very unlikely that he would encountered armed resistance.

Putting more guns on campus in the right hands isn't the only solution but it is a way of providing an deterrent to these sort of attacks in "gun-free" zones. Examples can be seen where VP Joel Myrick (Pearl Mississippi High School) retireved his handgun from his car and stopped active-shooter Luke Woodham. Private security guard Jeanne Assam stopped active-shooter Mathew Murray when he walked into the New Life Church (Colorado) armed with two handguns and a semi-automatic rifle.

There was a proposal at the University of Nevada where professors and school administrators would be trained as LEOs and commisioned so they could legally carry concealed weapons on campus. They would then be in place as an armed deterrent.

The Brady Campaign and other anti-civil right groups (such as the Violence Policy Center) opposed licensed private citizens from carrying firearms on campus. They only want commisioned peace officers to be armed on college and high-school campuses. Yet, none of these groups has shown any support for the University of Nevada proposal. If they are really concerned about stopping these attacks, then why won't they support this compromise?

Michael

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:40 AM on 10/27/2008
- FatherWolf I'm a Fan of FatherWolf 21 fans permalink

Just what they need. A bunch of drunken frat boys on Saturday night with guns.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:50 AM on 10/27/2008
- strandwolf I'm a Fan of strandwolf 6 fans permalink

Right! Let the lead fly....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:57 AM on 10/27/2008
- Rog49Thomas I'm a Fan of Rog49Thomas 192 fans permalink

when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns

if they're not outlawed, anyone with $30 will be able to get a gun. those who haven't a clue how to use them, those mentally unfit to use them, those who are a danger not only to themselves but to others and some responsible folks

it's pretty clear which is the preferrable course of action

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:01 AM on 10/27/2008

FatherWolf:

How do comments like that help the discussion? I didn't say anything about drunken frat boys, I was talking about deputized peace officers in plain clothes carrying concealed weapons.

I am a licensed peace officer in Texas and work as a reserve deputy. When I am on duty I carry my duty weapon in the open. When I am off-duty, I carry it concealed. So, even when off-duty, I am in a position to stop an active shooter. Not only am I armed, I am carrying concealed and have the element of surprise. The same would be true of a CHL holder who was not a peace officer. That is why it is called a Concealed Handgun License.

There was a news story the other day that said Chicago was the murder capitol of the US followed by New York and Los Angeles. Guess what they have in common? Illinois doesn't allowed legal concealed carry at all while it is severely restricted in New York and California.

Michael

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:04 AM on 10/27/2008
- roald I'm a Fan of roald 16 fans permalink

First, a moment of silence for the dead and best wishes for a continued speedy recovery of the wounded.

Thank you Michael. Have you considered how many people would be killed by students who are momentarily unable to think rationally - drunk, distraught, enraged, or otherwise unable to act appropriately.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:55 AM on 10/27/2008

raold:

Have you considered that one armed person at Virginia Tech (Virginia does allow licensed concealed carry) in that class room could have stopped Co that day?

The fact is is that drunken, irrational, enraged people will always be able to find ways to kill others even if firearms aren't available. There was a case in New York City many years ago where Julio Gonzales was thrown out of Happy Land (an illegal nightclub). He went out and bought 5 gallons of gasoline and poured it on the stairs which were the only way in or out of the club. Then he set it on fire. You can guess the results. 87 people died. That is twice the number who died at virginia Tech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_Fire

Michael

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:51 AM on 10/27/2008
- john85msy I'm a Fan of john85msy 3 fans permalink

Wrong solution. Pay the money to have armed security dressed as students.T­o hell with the cost or number needed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:08 AM on 10/27/2008
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I've never heard such drivel in all my born days. I live in a European country which has very strict gun laws (basically, unless you're a farmer who needs a shotgun, you don't get a gun). I've never even SEEN a gun in this country, no-one I know has ever even picked up a gun. Our levels of gun-related crime are very low indeed - off-the-scale low by American standards. And guess what? We've never had a campus shooting anywhere in this country, ever. I work at a university, and it is utterly unimaginable to me that such a thing might happen on my campus.

The way to avoid massacres (as well as 'ordinary' gun-crime) is to heavily regulate and limit guns. It really is very simple.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 AM on 10/27/2008
- MaxPowerXP I'm a Fan of MaxPowerXP 7 fans permalink

Much the same way that heavy regulation has helped us avoid drug use, right? Remember when prohibition put an end to drinking in the US?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:17 AM on 10/27/2008
- molonlabe I'm a Fan of molonlabe 15 fans permalink

Yeah, but you forget to mention your uncontrollable "knife crime", hugh? I've even heard of legislation proposed in the UK which seeks to ban certain length kitchen knives?!

"Paul Erhahon, a 14-year-old from Leytonstone, east London, was killed in a fight involving 12 to 15 youths on Good Friday. He is the sixth teenager to die in a knife attack within the last month.

The tragedy occurred as a new study of 28 countries found 13% of violent crime victims in England and Wales had been stabbed or threatened with a knife. Scotland came close behind. Only Spain and Portugal had worse figures, while countries such as Italy, the United States, Estonia and Mexico all had less knife crime. "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article1626691.ece

Focusing on implement regulation only diverts finite resources for criminal control.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:42 AM on 10/27/2008

In South Africa guns are heavily regulated, much more so than here. Gun owners are licensed and guns are registered. Guess what, you can get AK-47s on the black market and don't have to worry about licensing or regulation.

Michael

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:23 PM on 10/27/2008
- EmilyU I'm a Fan of EmilyU 4 fans permalink
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Gee,

My neighbor has hunted in and been in firearm competitions in most of western Europe.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:26 PM on 10/27/2008
- djkrlsn I'm a Fan of djkrlsn 23 fans permalink

Last time I checked--draconian gun control does not stop gun crime--even in Japan the Yakuza have guns (and that is with the police showing up 2 or 2 times a year to search houses without warrants) so Japan's low crime is more related to culture than no guns.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:05 PM on 10/28/2008
- JoeLib I'm a Fan of JoeLib 10 fans permalink
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What a shame. I received my Masters Degree in Student Personnel Administration at UCA and was the Residential Director of Arkansas Hall back in the 90's. The campus has had problems with drug and gang related activities coming out of Little Rock in the past. There we at least three incidents during my tenure when we discovered handguns in the residence hall, as well as 2 times shots were fired on campus. It is a great community and a wonderful university, but this latest episode of gun related violence is not an isolated incident in the campus history. It sounds like the campus police and administration provided an excellent response to the tragedy. My thoughts go out to the UCA community.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:35 AM on 10/27/2008

look people, if I want to read these kind of posts, I usually just go to AOL and read their political comments. please stop making up your minds without knowing any real facts about what happened.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:29 AM on 10/27/2008
- Thirdpower I'm a Fan of Thirdpower 47 fans permalink
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Welcome to HuffPo

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:08 AM on 10/27/2008

Ditto

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:43 AM on 10/27/2008
- MajorKong I'm a Fan of MajorKong 386 fans permalink
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I now somebody that lives in Conway. It's mostly a bedroom community for Little Rock.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:02 AM on 10/27/2008

It's also a "dry" community, no alcohol-unless you're a "member" at the local restaurant , plus it has more Wal-Mart-sized churches than this Northern boy has ever seen in one place.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:20 AM on 10/27/2008
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Don't get all carried away with the "school shooter" scenarios. This sounds drug and/or gang related to me.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:52 AM on 10/27/2008
- qdog112 I'm a Fan of qdog112 68 fans permalink
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"Don't get all carried away with the "school shooter" scenarios"

Yet you're ready to call it drug or gang related with zero facts?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:02 AM on 10/27/2008

qdog112:

Whether if is dru/gang realted or an active shooter scenario, it still shows that "gun free" zones don't work. If they did, these people would still be alive.

Michael

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:30 PM on 10/27/2008
- nomoredead I'm a Fan of nomoredead 10 fans permalink

What do you expect when you can run down to your local Wal Mart and buy a loaf of bread, a prom dress and a gun.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:11 AM on 10/27/2008
- TCC I'm a Fan of TCC permalink

I just want to point out that the only time that I know of when our guns were confiscated by the federal government to increase control over the citizens was done by the republican Bush administration in New Orleans and the Mississippi Gulf Coast area. In fact, it was one of the first things they did. I personally saw it happen when I was down there days after the hurricane hit. It wasn't the Democrats that were doing it, we were all busy doing relief work.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:03 AM on 10/27/2008
- OldSFMJT I'm a Fan of OldSFMJT 10 fans permalink
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TCC,
I'm throwing the BS flag on this one! You lie! The disarmament order came from a democrat mayor, Ray Nagin and was given to agencies working for him (the thoroughly corrupt NOPD) or the democrat governor, Kathleen Blanco (Nation Guard and LEO agencies from outside the state). As far as Mississippi is concerned, nothing like what happened in NO occurred there!

You want to slam President Bush, fine! Just do it for things he's done, not crap you make up!

Old SF MJT

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:34 PM on 10/27/2008
- TCC I'm a Fan of TCC permalink

That would be pretty difficult since I never set foot in New Orleans or LA. I was in Gulfport, Mississippi at the Logistical Operations Center.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:54 PM on 10/27/2008
- Mr B I'm a Fan of Mr B permalink

On a campus where firearms are banned, a person with a gun stands out and everyone knows something isn't right.

On a campus where anyone can carry, a mad person with a gun would not be noticed until they've already opened fire.

Campus Massacres are perpetrated by people who typically do not care if they survive or not. The thought that they might get shot, doesn't do much to deter them and could even provoke them further.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:51 AM on 10/27/2008
- roald I'm a Fan of roald 16 fans permalink

A rifle or long gun might be noticed, but people who plan to commit violence also can find ways to conceal weapons.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:58 AM on 10/27/2008

Mr_B:

If there had been an armed person in the classroom that day at Virginia Tech at least they would have had a chance against Cho. Remember Jeanne Assam stopped active shooter Mathew Murray at the New Life Church in Colorado earlier this year. Murray had already killed and was armed with a semi-automatic rifle and two handguns. Also, VPriciple Joel Myrick used his handgun (that he retrieved from his truck) to stop active shooter Luke Woodham.

Michael

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:10 AM on 10/27/2008
- EmilyU I'm a Fan of EmilyU 4 fans permalink
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"On a campus where firearms are banned, a person with a gun stands out and everyone knows something isn't right. "

Sorry, but you are incorrect unless their are carrying openly.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:17 PM on 10/27/2008
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