California Gay Marriage Banned As Proposition 8 Passes

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First Posted: 11- 5-08 12:14 PM   |   Updated: 12- 6-08 05:12 AM

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LOS ANGELES - In an election otherwise full of liberal triumphs, the gay rights movement suffered a stunning defeat as California voters approved a ban on same-sex marriages that overrides a recent court decision legalizing them.

The constitutional amendment -- widely seen as the most momentous of the nation's 153 ballot measures -- will limit marriage to heterosexual couples, the first time such a vote has taken place in a state where gay unions are legal.

Gay-rights activists had a rough election elsewhere as well. Ban-gay-marriage amendments were approved in Arizona and Florida, and Arkansas voters approved a measure banning unmarried couples from serving as adoptive or foster parents. Supporters made clear that gays and lesbians were their main target.

In California, with 95 percent of precincts reporting Wednesday, the ban had 5,125,752 votes, or 52 percent, while there were 4,725,313 votes, or 48 percent, opposed.

Similar bans had prevailed in 27 states before Tuesday's elections, but none were in California's situation -- with about 18,000 gay couples married since a state Supreme Court ruling in May. The state attorney general, Jerry Brown, has said those marriages will remain valid, although legal challenges are possible.

Spending for and against the amendment reached $74 million, making it the most expensive social-issues campaign in U.S. history and the most expensive campaign this year outside the race for the White House.

Elsewhere, voters in Colorado and South Dakota rejected measures that could have led to sweeping bans of abortion, and Washington became only the second state -- after Oregon -- to offer terminally ill people the option of physician-assisted suicide.

A first-of-its-kind measure in Colorado, which was defeated soundly, would have defined life as beginning at conception. Its opponents said the proposal could lead to the outlawing of some types of birth control as well as abortion.

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The South Dakota measure would have banned abortions except in cases of rape, incest and serious health threat to the mother. A tougher version, without the rape and incest exceptions, lost in 2006. Anti-abortion activists thought the modifications would win approval, but the margin of defeat was similar, about 55 percent to 45 percent of the vote.

"The lesson here is that Americans, in states across the country, clearly support women's ability to access abortion care without government interference," said Vicki Saporta, president of the National Abortion Federation.

In Washington, voters gave solid approval to an initiative modeled after Oregon's "Death with Dignity" law, which allows a terminally ill person to be prescribed lethal medication they can administer to themselves. Since Oregon's law took effect in 1997, more than 340 people -- mostly ailing with cancer -- have used it to end their lives.

The marijuana reform movement won two prized victories, with Massachusetts voters decriminalizing possession of small amounts of the drug and Michigan joining 12 other states in allowing use of pot for medical purposes.

Henceforth, people caught in Massachusetts with an ounce or less of pot will no longer face criminal penalties. Instead, they'll forfeit the marijuana and pay a $100 civil fine.

The Michigan measure will allow severely ill patients to register with the state and legally buy, grow and use small amounts of marijuana to relieve pain, nausea, appetite loss and other symptoms.

Nebraska voters, meanwhile, approved a ban on race- and gender-based affirmative action, similar to measures previously approved in California, Michigan and Washington. Returns in Colorado on a similar measure were too close to call.

Ward Connerly, the California activist-businessman who has led the crusade against affirmative action, said Obama's victory proved his point. "We have overcome the scourge of race," Connerly said.

Energy measures met a mixed fate. In Missouri, voters approved a measure requiring the state's three investor-owned electric utilities to get 15 percent of their electricity from renewable sources by 2021. But California voters defeated an even more ambitious measure that would have required the state's utilities to generate half their electricity from windmills, solar systems, geothermal reserves and other renewable sources by 2025.

Two animal-welfare measures passed -- a ban on dog racing in Massachusetts, and a proposition in California that outlaws cramped cages for egg-laying chickens.

Amid deep economic uncertainty, proposals to cut state income taxes were defeated decisively in North Dakota and Massachusetts.

In San Francisco, an eye-catching local measure -- to bar arrests for prostitution -- was soundly rejected. Police and political leaders said it would hamper the fight against sex trafficking. And in San Diego, voters decided to make permanent a ban on alcohol consumption on city beaches.


Ellen Urges California Residents To Vote No On Prop 8Ellen Urges California Residents To Vote No On Prop 8

Obama: California Gay Marriage Ban "Unnecessary"

LOS ANGELES - In an election otherwise full of liberal triumphs, the gay rights movement suffered a stunning defeat as California voters approved a ban on same-sex marriages that overrides a recent co...
LOS ANGELES - In an election otherwise full of liberal triumphs, the gay rights movement suffered a stunning defeat as California voters approved a ban on same-sex marriages that overrides a recent co...
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This pisses me off. What a bunch of bull Sh...
GBLT's aren't hurting anyone..They are HUMAN-BEINGS that deserve marriage if they want it. ENOUGH with dogma!!!! Enough with ignorance.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:35 PM on 11/05/2008

This is what is wrong with dogmatic religion and why I am grateful not to have fallen for this crap.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:14 PM on 11/05/2008
- JohnJames I'm a Fan of JohnJames 120 fans permalink

Amazing the consernation we honest gay people cause. It's hard to explain unless it's something very close.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:05 PM on 11/05/2008
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If you haven't read the actual writ challenging Prop 8 I urge you to do so:

http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/lgbt/ca_prop8_writpetition.pdf

It's about 50 pages long, and though I am no less furious at the outcome on 8 (to say nothing of the fury I have that it was ever on the ballot in the first place) -- after reading it I feel much, much better. I'm not a legal scholar but I am very hopeful that Prop 8's implementation will be delayed pending the review of the case but that it will be invalidated completely. Remember, it's going to the same court that decided in favor of marriage equality only six months ago.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 PM on 11/05/2008
- suec03 I'm a Fan of suec03 11 fans permalink

Thanks so much for the link! I bookmarked it to read later. Good catch!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:10 PM on 11/05/2008
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great! thank you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:25 PM on 11/05/2008

Unfettered democracy is two wolves and a duck voting on what's for dinner.

This preposterosition needs to be tossed out of court BY a court.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:57 PM on 11/05/2008

This doesn't surprise me, Ms Beaverhausen. It doesn't surprise me that there is already an attempt underway to subvert the will of the people on technical grounds. Nor does it surprise me that the ACLU is the ringleader of this effort. If the court shoots prop 8 down on a technicality, then, yet again, the people will have to reformulate it, making sure all t's are crossed and i's dotted and take it back once more to the ballot box. The people of California have thusfar shown themselves resilient to judicial tyranny and I believe it will take lot more mischief in the courts before they are worn down into submission.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:37 AM on 11/06/2008
- suec03 I'm a Fan of suec03 11 fans permalink

Tyranny would be issuing an edict regardless of the law. The Constitution was not on your side and the Justices followed the Constitution. I guess that makes the Yes on 8 Proponents the tyrants. Please send me an email when you get around to putting a proposition on the ballot to repeal the Constitution entirely. I want to organize opposition to repealing our Constitution.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:48 AM on 11/06/2008
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The ACLU was not the ringleader on this. The ringleaders appear to be the individuals whose rights were stripped by an ill-conceived initiative. Not to mention the influence from a certain church based in Utah.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:45 AM on 11/06/2008

it's late and i meant passed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:38 AM on 11/06/2008

Stop coming up with unconstitutional laws and skewing elections to get them past and the courts will stop overturning the decisions. It's not rocket science.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:37 AM on 11/06/2008

I support the immediate extension of Domestic Partnership rights to all heterosexual couples across California. I'm frankly surprised that heterosexuals have neglected the fact that they are unjustly excluded from the Domestic Partnership alternative until after the age of 62. The rights and responsibilities of Domestic Partnership are the same as those of marriage, yet, absent are thousands of years of sordid history of the latter. If I were straight, seriously involved, and living in California, I'd be crying foul all the way to a ballot initiative in support of Domestic Partnership for all. I support the rights of fellow homosexuals to marry, but I also believe that my heterosexual friends should be granted the right not to marry, and to share the same legal recognition of their relationships that my partner and I currently enjoy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:01 PM on 11/05/2008
- suec03 I'm a Fan of suec03 11 fans permalink

The problem starts in getting third parties to the union like the federal government and out-of-state insurance companies to change their rules and forms to adapt to your new, California-specific terminology. Chambers of Commerce prefer consistent rules from state-to-state rather than a business having to come up with separate forms each time a single state decides to give "marriage" a new name. Do you want to argue with a Tennessee-based insurance company whether your Domestic Partnership qualifies for the same treatment as the marriages of its customers from other states? I didn't think so.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:07 PM on 11/05/2008

I would never buy insurance from a Tennessee-based company, so I guess I wouldn't be having that argument. California based businesses have been adjusting to the domestic partnerships, and creating products and services for that market. Why shouldn't my straight friends have the same opportunities and options that I have?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:25 PM on 11/05/2008
- jaslyn I'm a Fan of jaslyn 27 fans permalink

This proposition should have been better worded, and I think people got confused. Two double negatives would confuse some people especially with so many props to consider. Why can't someone just write these things in plain English so that we can actually understand them? Either that, or there are still many people in our so called liberal state who are traditionalists, and think only a man and a woman should have civil rights.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:01 PM on 11/05/2008
- ohiomark I'm a Fan of ohiomark 123 fans permalink

The reality is that the states have the right to decide such issues from the ballot box, NOT the courts.

The people have spoken.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:00 PM on 11/05/2008
- suec03 I'm a Fan of suec03 11 fans permalink

Sorry. Read up on the running controversy over the initiative process here in California, which has been hijacked by wealthy interests. Low-paid signature-gathers get hurried shoppers to sign petitions without first reading in detail what the proposed law would do. The initiative process is being used to substitute misleading ads with lies in them for the deliberation process and public vote that would be involved if they had to submit it to our Legislature. It is actually antidemocratic. It counts on the fact that a voter who is misled, or ignorant of the facts, casts a vote that counts equally with the vote of a voter who didn't trust the ad and instead researched the facts. You can't get all California voters into one room to deliberate the measure the way you can notify all members of the state Assembly and state Senate that a vote will be held Wednesday on bill number such and such so have your staff read it first and give you a summary and recommendation so you can cast an informed, public vote, answerable to your constituents at election time.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:19 PM on 11/05/2008
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no they do not. We are a republic. Majorities are elected to influence or shape legislation that will impact everyone. This country would have never survived on a simple majority rule mentality. This is not a direct democracy. We don't even elect our president by popular vote. Its weighted through the electoral college. Our own federal constitution cannot be amended by a simple majority. slavery itself would have never been abolished if it was ever put up to a simple majority vote

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:20 PM on 11/05/2008
- wdw101 I'm a Fan of wdw101 20 fans permalink

then change your Constitution to make changing your constitution harder.........i'll bet that won't fly either

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:07 AM on 11/06/2008

You have no idea what you are talking about. Read up on California law regarding procedure to amend the State constitution and referendums.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:55 AM on 11/06/2008
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This law is unconstitutional.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:32 PM on 11/05/2008
- wdw101 I'm a Fan of wdw101 20 fans permalink

then over turn it.........bet you can't

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:05 AM on 11/06/2008

What does it take to get diehards like yourself to understand that a constitutional amendment cannot be "unconstitutional" since it becomes part of the constitution itself?
You are saying that the constitution is unconstitutional.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:42 AM on 11/06/2008
- UncleMilo I'm a Fan of UncleMilo 6 fans permalink

Our nation has freedoms to help protect the minorities from the majorities.

We have freedom of religion to protect the less practiced faith

We have freedom of speech to protect the voice that often isn't heard.

We have freedom of the press so we can speak out against power.

So long as some of us are not free, then none of us are free.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:43 PM on 11/05/2008
- wdw101 I'm a Fan of wdw101 20 fans permalink

so now you are slaves?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:33 AM on 11/06/2008
- wdw101 I'm a Fan of wdw101 20 fans permalink

i agree

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:52 PM on 11/05/2008

70% of black obama voters voted for prop 8; what a joke...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:56 PM on 11/05/2008
- rextrek I'm a Fan of rextrek 34 fans permalink
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Before she died, Corretta Scott King stated her opposition to any constitutional amendments regarding gay marriage.

Martin Luther King's trusted adviser, Bayard Rustin, was openly gay and worked hard for the civil rights of all Americans. He was tapped to organize the Montgomery Bus Boycott and the 1963 March on Washington.

Gays worked hard for African Americans to have civil rights. It's time for a little gratitude.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:02 PM on 11/05/2008
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Amen. I voted for Barack Obama. I've been for civil rights for everyone all my life. And, I'm absolutely devastated at the moment. I'm angry, depressed, and sad all at the same time.This is a travesty and a set back for the gay community across the nation and around the world.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:23 PM on 11/05/2008
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she was wonderful, she really didn't have to do it. at that point in her life...........we owe her our thanks.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:29 PM on 11/05/2008

I find the last sentence offensive. Gratitude? Black people fought long and hard for equal and civil rights. Some of us were kicked, beaten and killed. Shame on you. It's not because of gays and lesbians that black people no longer sit at the back of the bus. Gays and lesbians have benefited form the civil rights movement. To think that black people owe you something is disgraceful. We do not owe you anything. Before I read the comments on this issue I was really sympathetic
to the no campaign but I am have real doubts now. Some of the comments have been out right racist and bigoted.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:30 PM on 11/10/2008
- rpr I'm a Fan of rpr 2 fans permalink

You always have more people voting with their gut than with their brain, unfortunately.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:05 PM on 11/05/2008
- JohnJames I'm a Fan of JohnJames 120 fans permalink

Unbelievable really. The moment seems to have really escaped them. Oppresion doesn't ennoble. It just makes you want to have another group to crap on.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:15 PM on 11/05/2008
- wdw101 I'm a Fan of wdw101 20 fans permalink

consider yourself crapped on

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:08 AM on 11/06/2008

This is where dialogue and kindness, and visibility comes in. Get over the divisiveness and open up a dialogue about the issues. 70% suggests that somebody was not doing their homework and working on marketing and voter outreach for the cause. 70% is not a small oversight. Just as this thing should have and could have gone down overwhelmingly in Los Angeles, surely some of that 70% should have and could have been persuaded to the no column. We're going to have to step out a bit and build some bridges. It's appalling that we feel blindsided. 70%, I'm rounding the C to an F in terms of outreach to black voters.

Hooray for next times.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:53 AM on 11/06/2008
- ohiomark I'm a Fan of ohiomark 123 fans permalink

Sometimes I think voters are blinded by skin color and nothing else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyvqhdllXgU

You should have to pass a simple test to vote.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:56 AM on 11/06/2008

Marriage should be completely removed for all legislation. Who one chooses to spend their life with should not be regulated by the state. The state has absolutely no businesses in my personal life. When we allow the state to define marriage and base laws on marriage, we give away a bit of our freedom to the state.

I would urge the GLBT community to come up with new strategy. Abolish marriage and civil unions as legal statuses altogether. Tell the government to leave us the heck alone. If that's just too radical an idea, then at least abolish marriage and get god out of government. Instead, push for civil unions / legal partnerships that would apply to all couples, gay and straight.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:54 PM on 11/05/2008
- suec03 I'm a Fan of suec03 11 fans permalink

Then how would we be able to use the courts to dissolve our status and resolve our fights over splitting up the property? How would courts be able to determine who is a lawful spouse for inheritance of property when there is no written will?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:31 AM on 11/06/2008

Same way it does now in states that have common law. If you prove that you have been together for a certain period of time(varies from state to state) than your assests are divides accordingly. If you are the domestic partner, you would have the same right as the spouse.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:16 AM on 11/06/2008

Why not just push for marriage and domestic partnership for everyone? This is not without precedent (Horray Netherlands!) My straight friends who are in relationships here in California cannot enter into domestic partnerships, and I think that's a shame. As of today I can no longer marry in California, an equal shame. I don't care about protecting marriage. It's not some monolithic institution which has not mutated and changed over the years. It's been within the last 200 years that people entered into it as a self-determining institution. Children were sold into it, traded for property. Talk about protecting children! The whole PC right wing narrative about it is dishonest (or delusional). But that should not stop my gay pals from entering into it if they want to. I think Domestic Partnership (or whatever non marriage union word you want to use) is a much less polluted institution, and is therefore preferable. Anyway, whatever the case, my tax dollars are as good as those of James Dobson's, the bible is just one set of ideas, and just because convention is convention doesn't qualify it as good or permanent.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:07 AM on 11/06/2008

this is one of the comments that I can agree with. Every couple that wishes to be together, straight or gay, get a certificate. Those that wish to "marry", go to the JP or your place of worship. If your place of worship doesn't want to perform the ceremony, you are in the wrong place.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:14 AM on 11/06/2008
- wdw101 I'm a Fan of wdw101 20 fans permalink

domestic partnership or civil union go for it......i don't care

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:04 AM on 11/06/2008

Gay "marriage"? GIve me a new name for it!!! The same morons who have voted to approve Prop. 8 are the very same morons who have mangled the institution of marriage. Why is the divorce rate so high? Because of all the closeted, self loathing homosexuals who have married each other and others. Why is your divorce rate so high? Because instead of spending time working on your own marriages you pump your time and money and passion into being obsessed with hating mine. I say we give our unions a new and better name--one that has more meaning and more integrity than the "marriages" these haters have.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:51 PM on 11/05/2008
- suec03 I'm a Fan of suec03 11 fans permalink

But then you have to get the federal government to change all its laws and regulations that apply only to "married persons." You also have to get all those businesses like insurance companies to treat your new word the same as the word "married" that their policies use. Why go to all that trouble just to avoid using the word "marriage." The conservatives are playing a hide-the-pea shell game and telling people that when the government says "marriage" they are talking about regulating religious marriage rites. They don't want people to understand that the government has just as much right to use the term "marriage" to designate a civil contract between two adults to be responsible for one another with the right to own property together as community property and to have access to the same family court as opposite-sex couples to file a petition to dissolve their "marriage." Do we have to create a separate court proceeding with separate forms and rules to dissolve a civil union, or will one set of rules for opposite-sex couples and same-sex couples be more dignified and more efficient?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:02 PM on 11/05/2008
- WoodyCPM I'm a Fan of WoodyCPM 80 fans permalink

The ignorance about marriage and the state in this country is appalling. This is what we get for 300+ years of religious zealotry and fanaticism in this country. Religion and the churches have never, EVER owned marriage in the United States. Churches DO NOT issue marriage licenses. Marriage has ALWAYS been a civil act, as far as the state is concerned. It MAY also be a religious rite, but the state does not determine that, define that, interfere in that, NOR DOES IT REQUIRE THAT!!! You don't have to get married in a church to be married in the United States. You have never had to get married in a church. Getting married is called a "wedding", some of which are held in churches, whatever the people want. Marriage, as an institution in America has always been controlled and regulated by the civil authorities, not the churches. You could abolish every church in America, and you would still have marriage licenses being issued by the state and marriage being entered into by consenting adults.

Screw the churches.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:55 PM on 11/05/2008

I can't help but feel that I have been denied a full measure of the hope and change that was promised by my candidate and party. My only consolation is the lawsuit filed by the ACLU and others. Read it at:

http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/relationships/37706prs20081105.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:47 PM on 11/05/2008
- robinhood1 I'm a Fan of robinhood1 11 fans permalink

If you want equality, move to Canada. Don't forget that Congress came very close to passing a Federal Marriage Amendment to the US constitution in 2006 and even most Democrats in Congress from BHO on down do not support gay marriage. We'll soon see if Pelosi and Reid are willing to sponsor civil union legislation, as well as anti-discrimination legislation to protect gays in the areas of employment, housing, immigration and military service. Given the lousy shape of the economy and their efforts to desire to govern from the center, gays may again thrown under the bus.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:32 PM on 11/05/2008
- kaukerc I'm a Fan of kaukerc 9 fans permalink

I expect we will be thrown under the bus--- but only after they have collected our donations.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:45 PM on 11/05/2008
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Knowing what I know now, I would have / should have immigrated out of this country when I graduated from college. But, that was over 30 years ago. Who knew that it would get this bad?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:45 PM on 11/05/2008
- zetacplus I'm a Fan of zetacplus 14 fans permalink
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Although in my heart I believe prop 8 is wrong minded I take some comfort in the progress we have made. If it is allowed to stand we will continue the fight and push every election to get it overturned. With only a 400,000 vote difference it shouldn't take too much longer to get the majority in favor of equal rights for everyone.

Please, I encourage everyone that voted No (especially gays) to boycott any business that supported the Yes vote. Our dollars should not be spent at businesses that supports treating us differently. Please educate yourselves and find out who was for this propostion and do not do business with them. We can speak loudly with our money. Send them a message they understand. If we are not good enough, neither is our business.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:45 PM on 11/05/2008
    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:40 PM on 11/05/2008

I wish I could celebrate with Straight Democrats on the supposed big win for "Democracy" last night but I'm spending my time trying to pull the knife out of my back. The tears that were running down my face last night while watching Barack Obama speak about unity and change were washed out by tears of rage as I learned this morning that all the Anti-Gay Props in CA, AZ, and FLA had passed with the help of many Democrats. Here in CA, 70% of Black voters decided to enslave the Gay Community with their ignorance by voting in favor of Prop. 8 along with 49% of Whites. I don't see how the Black Community can expect White racists to overcome years of racism when they themselves cannot overcome years of Church homophobia. 43% of Whites voted for Obama yet only 30% of Blacks would vote to protect my Civil Rights as a Gay man. If Blacks, after centuries of racism cannot learn the lessons of intolerance then nobody can or will. Whatever.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:39 PM on 11/05/2008
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Well said. And never forget that the African American community remained silent on HIV for many years until it started infecting their own ranks. And my how they howled in outrage then and demanded money and treatment.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:47 PM on 11/05/2008

you are right...what do we do know...I vote go rouge...I vote get activisim life again

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:58 PM on 11/05/2008
- jaslyn I'm a Fan of jaslyn 27 fans permalink

Take heart in the fact that many of us do support gay marriage as a simple civil right and showed that support yesterday . The tide WILL change, but this has never been a country that moved very fast. I'm a married white woman, and I, my husband and 21 year old daughter voted to extend the same rights to gays. So did everyone I know.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:08 PM on 11/05/2008

look up leviticus and add all of it to the constitution! no more shellfish! back to slavery! working on the sabbath is punishable by death!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:34 PM on 11/05/2008
- suec03 I'm a Fan of suec03 11 fans permalink

What about the proscription against wearing garments made of two different threads? Cotton-polyester blends would become an abomination!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:40 PM on 11/05/2008
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