California Gay Marriage Banned As Proposition 8 Passes

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First Posted: 11- 5-08 12:14 PM   |   Updated: 12- 6-08 05:12 AM

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LOS ANGELES - In an election otherwise full of liberal triumphs, the gay rights movement suffered a stunning defeat as California voters approved a ban on same-sex marriages that overrides a recent court decision legalizing them.

The constitutional amendment -- widely seen as the most momentous of the nation's 153 ballot measures -- will limit marriage to heterosexual couples, the first time such a vote has taken place in a state where gay unions are legal.

Gay-rights activists had a rough election elsewhere as well. Ban-gay-marriage amendments were approved in Arizona and Florida, and Arkansas voters approved a measure banning unmarried couples from serving as adoptive or foster parents. Supporters made clear that gays and lesbians were their main target.

In California, with 95 percent of precincts reporting Wednesday, the ban had 5,125,752 votes, or 52 percent, while there were 4,725,313 votes, or 48 percent, opposed.

Similar bans had prevailed in 27 states before Tuesday's elections, but none were in California's situation -- with about 18,000 gay couples married since a state Supreme Court ruling in May. The state attorney general, Jerry Brown, has said those marriages will remain valid, although legal challenges are possible.

Spending for and against the amendment reached $74 million, making it the most expensive social-issues campaign in U.S. history and the most expensive campaign this year outside the race for the White House.

Elsewhere, voters in Colorado and South Dakota rejected measures that could have led to sweeping bans of abortion, and Washington became only the second state -- after Oregon -- to offer terminally ill people the option of physician-assisted suicide.

A first-of-its-kind measure in Colorado, which was defeated soundly, would have defined life as beginning at conception. Its opponents said the proposal could lead to the outlawing of some types of birth control as well as abortion.

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The South Dakota measure would have banned abortions except in cases of rape, incest and serious health threat to the mother. A tougher version, without the rape and incest exceptions, lost in 2006. Anti-abortion activists thought the modifications would win approval, but the margin of defeat was similar, about 55 percent to 45 percent of the vote.

"The lesson here is that Americans, in states across the country, clearly support women's ability to access abortion care without government interference," said Vicki Saporta, president of the National Abortion Federation.

In Washington, voters gave solid approval to an initiative modeled after Oregon's "Death with Dignity" law, which allows a terminally ill person to be prescribed lethal medication they can administer to themselves. Since Oregon's law took effect in 1997, more than 340 people -- mostly ailing with cancer -- have used it to end their lives.

The marijuana reform movement won two prized victories, with Massachusetts voters decriminalizing possession of small amounts of the drug and Michigan joining 12 other states in allowing use of pot for medical purposes.

Henceforth, people caught in Massachusetts with an ounce or less of pot will no longer face criminal penalties. Instead, they'll forfeit the marijuana and pay a $100 civil fine.

The Michigan measure will allow severely ill patients to register with the state and legally buy, grow and use small amounts of marijuana to relieve pain, nausea, appetite loss and other symptoms.

Nebraska voters, meanwhile, approved a ban on race- and gender-based affirmative action, similar to measures previously approved in California, Michigan and Washington. Returns in Colorado on a similar measure were too close to call.

Ward Connerly, the California activist-businessman who has led the crusade against affirmative action, said Obama's victory proved his point. "We have overcome the scourge of race," Connerly said.

Energy measures met a mixed fate. In Missouri, voters approved a measure requiring the state's three investor-owned electric utilities to get 15 percent of their electricity from renewable sources by 2021. But California voters defeated an even more ambitious measure that would have required the state's utilities to generate half their electricity from windmills, solar systems, geothermal reserves and other renewable sources by 2025.

Two animal-welfare measures passed -- a ban on dog racing in Massachusetts, and a proposition in California that outlaws cramped cages for egg-laying chickens.

Amid deep economic uncertainty, proposals to cut state income taxes were defeated decisively in North Dakota and Massachusetts.

In San Francisco, an eye-catching local measure -- to bar arrests for prostitution -- was soundly rejected. Police and political leaders said it would hamper the fight against sex trafficking. And in San Diego, voters decided to make permanent a ban on alcohol consumption on city beaches.


Ellen Urges California Residents To Vote No On Prop 8Ellen Urges California Residents To Vote No On Prop 8

Obama: California Gay Marriage Ban "Unnecessary"

LOS ANGELES - In an election otherwise full of liberal triumphs, the gay rights movement suffered a stunning defeat as California voters approved a ban on same-sex marriages that overrides a recent co...
LOS ANGELES - In an election otherwise full of liberal triumphs, the gay rights movement suffered a stunning defeat as California voters approved a ban on same-sex marriages that overrides a recent co...
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- abbeyroad I'm a Fan of abbeyroad 34 fans permalink
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there's no way i will ever attend a straight couple's wedding until gays can be married.

AND THEY ARE NOT GETTING ANY GIFTS !

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:14 PM on 11/05/2008
- slaxx I'm a Fan of slaxx 37 fans permalink
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word.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:37 PM on 11/05/2008
- M1 I'm a Fan of M1 36 fans permalink
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THAT IS MY POSITION..­...WHAT A DEMEANING EXPERIENCE THAT IS....ALWA­YS SUPPORTING OTHERS AND NOT GETTING IT BACK IN RETURN.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:43 PM on 11/05/2008

Most of the gay people that I know are intelligent and very creative. I do not understand though the reason why they insist in the word marriage. They should come up with an alternative word that means much more than what marriage means now. After all, with the divorce rate is so high among heterosexuals, the word divorce has a more favorable sound. If I were gay I would set up a website asking people better alternative words. Who knows, may be that word will have better meaning one day. After all, 'googling' is now better than 'searching'.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:11 PM on 11/05/2008
- Minako I'm a Fan of Minako 44 fans permalink
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I agree with you 100% SadButWiser. It honestly seems to me that the word is the only thing holding people back from supporting it.

As I said in another thread, as long as it has the same equal rights under the law, and I don't particularly care what it's called. Call it "banana" and I'll proudly banana the woman of my dreams :)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:15 PM on 11/05/2008
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Because seperate but equal is not equal in our country. Brown v Board of Ed, 1954

Even so, if i had every right accorded to marriage and it were called something else -- for now because of course it 20 or 30 years the fight on this will seems silly --- i'd be ok with that.....b­ut the "domestic partnership" we have here in CA now s u c k s.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:30 PM on 11/05/2008
- slaxx I'm a Fan of slaxx 37 fans permalink
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i'll banana you :)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:36 PM on 11/05/2008

What you call it misses the point. 'Marriage' is a word, 'civil union' are words.

Legally, civil unions do not equal marriage: thats the problem. This is also one of the fantastic lies spread around by the "Yes on 8" crowd. I have so many more hoops to jump through legally to ensure all my rights are protected in my same-sex "domestic partnershi­p."

It all boils down to having one thing and one thing only recognized by the state - civil marriage, or civil unions or whatever label you like. It has nothing to do with a church, and it has nothing to do with individuals and families who disapprove of homosexuality. It's about equality and having the same protections and privileges as everyone else in the state.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:24 PM on 11/05/2008
- madzippy I'm a Fan of madzippy 2 fans permalink

it may seem like the easier road to walk, especially with how some people react to it. but the argument could just as easily be made, if it's just a word and we could choose another, if in fact it is JUST a word, why not let us in on it? it's partly principle, yes? i mean, if the word is "off limits" where do you draw the line? and our new word for something "marriage-like"? would that be the same but different.­..equal, but separate..­.

...is this beginning to sound familiar???

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:27 PM on 11/05/2008
- nick r I'm a Fan of nick r 4 fans permalink

I understand you have good intentions here. But what you're talking about is still just another version of "separate but equal," which is a concept our country long ago deemed a contradiction in terms.

Let's say you're a redhead. And you sit down in a restaurant and someone next to you is eating a great-looking caesar salad. You ask the waiter to bring you the same salad. He says, "No, I'm afraid I can't serve you that because you have red hair. But, tell you what, I can get the chef to make you an even better one. I guarantee you'll love it. You just can't have that specific salad that you asked for."

Not okay, right? Discrimination is discrimination. There's no circumventing it; there's only abolishing it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:28 PM on 11/05/2008
- slaxx I'm a Fan of slaxx 37 fans permalink
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it's because "civil unions" have been found to be seperate and unequal. they have problems in new jersey giving rights to gays because many of the laws use the word "spouse" so the laws couldn't be applied to civil unions.

gays don't care what it gets called as long as it bestows equal rights. until we redine "marriage" as being only a religous ceremony with no civil consequences, and have all couples only get civil rights and protections through "civil unions," gays won't have equal rights unless they get "marriage.­"

so pretty much either we have to re-write all the laws or let gays get married in order to give them equal rights. personally, i think that marriage should remain a religious ceremony and all couples should get civil unions if they want governmnet rights and protections.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:32 PM on 11/05/2008
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I agree with that. That was one of the original solutions of the Massachusetts Supreme Court. Either marriage for everyone or civil unions for everyone.

Everywhere that church and state are joined it is harmful to both. I would support Civil Unions for EVERYONE, and leaving "marriage" as a church ceremony.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:42 PM on 11/05/2008

Magdarem, you are correct! How could Californians vote to treat chickens better than a gay man or woman? What has the state come to? For all the heterosexual men and women who supported gays in this effort - thank you from the bottom of my heart. The joy and elation felt at Senator Obama elected to the office of President is incredible - just as the letdown and sorrow of this proposition seeming to go down in flames disheartening and a they say in Oz, gutted.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:11 PM on 11/05/2008
- olephart I'm a Fan of olephart 109 fans permalink

“would have defined life as beginning at conception­.”

Tell you what I’m gonna do. We’ll accept this premise if it means that nine months more Social Security is owed all now retired plus interest. That this is also owed the estates of those who have since died from the beginning of Social Security payouts in 1940 plus interest. That the retirement age be reduced by nine months henceforth without penalty. That the costs for all of these measures be born by those making over $250,000 a year and a surtax be levied on them for payment. That this measure shall be introduced by Republicans and supported by all Republicans in the House and Senate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:11 PM on 11/05/2008

While you're at it, charge women who have miscarriages with murder too, regardless of the cause.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:18 PM on 11/05/2008
- bokiluis I'm a Fan of bokiluis 15 fans permalink

I was born gay and am a man of color.

While this was a sobering moment in my elated joy for Obama, I do feel strongly that the gay community

needs a long hard look in the mirror as well. We still have racism and prejudice running through the gay

community. White gay men who think they are better than other members of the gay community.

How can we expect others to be empathic to our causes if this continues to exist?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:02 PM on 11/05/2008
- JohnJames I'm a Fan of JohnJames 107 fans permalink

Individual white gay people may have their prejudices just like other people including blacks. If we're going to start denying civil rights on that basis then no group should have any civil rights. Gay people shouldn't all have to be saints to be treated equally under the law. No one demands the same of any other group.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:11 PM on 11/05/2008
- JohnJames I'm a Fan of JohnJames 107 fans permalink

And it's really pathetic that so many blacks in California would choose to exercise prejudice on a day when so many millions of Americans gay and straight and of all races were rooting for an African American candidate and cheering that his victory meant a victory against intolerance and prejudice. Many in the black community should be ashamed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:18 PM on 11/05/2008

What One Hand Giveth the Other Hand Taketh Away. Yesterday record numbers of people voted in this historic election. However, an AP report showed that 7 in 10 African Americans supported the repeal on marriage in California as well as a large number of hispanics, while whites were split. Many in the gay and lesbian community are devastated by this because they fought, volunteered and voted for Obama to be the first African American President. The black community should have fought alongside their gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, I am deeply saddened by this. We saw a night that the rights of black americans took another giant leap forward by electing Obama through the hardwork of many including those in the gay and lesbian community. But the rights of those gays and lesbians were taken away.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:31 PM on 11/05/2008

From the No on Prop 8 website posted today:

Roughly 400,000 votes separate yes from no on Prop 8 – out of 10 million votes tallied.
Based on turnout estimates reported yesterday, we expect that there are more than 3 million and possibly as many as 4 million absentee and provisional ballots yet to be counted.
Given that fundamental rights are at stake, we must wait to hear from the Secretary of State tomorrow how many votes are yet to be counted as well as where they are from.
It is clearly a very close election and we monitored the results all evening and this morning.
As of this point, the election is too close to call.
Because Prop 8 involves the sensitive matter of individual rights, we believe it is important to wait until we receive further information about the outcome.

Geoff Kors
Executive Committee NO on Prop 8

Kate KendellExecutive Committee
NO on Prop 8

and there's a rally tonight in West Hollywood at 7pm

http://www.lagaycenter.org/site/PageServer

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:59 PM on 11/05/2008
- zetacplus I'm a Fan of zetacplus 12 fans permalink
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I hold Geoff Kors accountable for the lousy organization of the No on 8 campaign. Our opponents were better organized and more vocal. We need a leader that will rally and organize us, a leader with a vision that can look over the horizon and get us all going in the same direction. This campaign did not feel right. For the amount of money we raised I expected banners and signs everywhere and I rarely saw either. However I was bombarded with the Yes on 8 signs on every corner. With just a little visibility we could have overcome that 400,000 vote hurdle.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:14 PM on 11/05/2008
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it's true that we basically only talked to friendly areas in person...i never heard of anyone going to Ornage County to talk about it...or of any effective outreach to the African-American community.­..........­i phonebanked and worked the polls and it all on the west side of LA county

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:49 PM on 11/05/2008
- M1 I'm a Fan of M1 36 fans permalink
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I feel the same way. The ads for No On Prop 8 were lousy except for the last one. The arguments less than impactful and I ordered signs that took amost 4 weeks to arrive. We ended up making some. Finally, they arrived.

My town was pasted over with Vote Yes on 8 and we barely had a voice in Livermore, Ca....so, we began to rally out here....we were flipped off, cursed out and warned never to seek the right to marry again....e­verynight the signs I put up were torn down. Just loving my neighbors. Finally, help came but it was too late....mo­st people had a mandate to vote yes on prop 8 from their church and believed we were trying to corrupt the children.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:53 PM on 11/05/2008
- Ms Fu I'm a Fan of Ms Fu 5 fans permalink

I think the idea of equating the gay rights movement to the civil rights movement is a grave mistake. Gays and lesbians today have the right to enter into legal unions, work and go to school wherever they want, and are protected against discrimination. African Americans were treated as substandard citizens; they were intimidated and prevented from going to vote, they were literally treated as second-class citizens (e.g. punished for talking down to whites, forced to use separate bathrooms) and prevented from choosing where they wanted to work or go to school. Blacks also continue to suffer from injustices and financial limitations today that gays and lesbians have never experienced as a group. A comparison between the civil rights movement and this drive to same-sex marriage is just insensitive and wrong.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:50 PM on 11/05/2008
- john77 I'm a Fan of john77 3 fans permalink

Blacks are religious fundamentalists.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:47 PM on 11/05/2008
- JohnJames I'm a Fan of JohnJames 107 fans permalink

White fundamentalists have been working for years to turn the black community against gays. It's obviously paid off.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:58 PM on 11/05/2008
- johnnyjust I'm a Fan of johnnyjust 6 fans permalink

Yes, no one thinks for themselves. It's all a conspiracy, I'm sure.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:37 PM on 11/05/2008
- slaxx I'm a Fan of slaxx 37 fans permalink
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so are a lot of hispanics. they're very religious and anti-gay. and so are a lot of whites.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:40 PM on 11/05/2008
- DogLeg I'm a Fan of DogLeg 2 fans permalink
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I firmly believe in the taxation of all religious institutions and enterprises, with no deductions and at a 90% rate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:46 PM on 11/05/2008

:-((((((

Perhaps the silver lining is that the right-wingnuts have at least a little something to keep them from rioting???

But a new day of Equality For All is COMING SOON:

http://www.comingsoon.cz

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:43 PM on 11/05/2008
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...that would be great if hadn't involved dissolving my marriage..­........i now have no legal relationship to him.......­.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:52 PM on 11/05/2008

It still hasn't been determined if Prop 8 is retroactive. Hang in there.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:06 PM on 11/05/2008
- JohnJames I'm a Fan of JohnJames 107 fans permalink

Very interesting especially since I'm both gay and of Czech decent. Thanks.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:55 PM on 11/05/2008
- madzippy I'm a Fan of madzippy 2 fans permalink

Dunno if it's a repost, but it's def an update:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601073&sid=avlFUPtNMz.M

Not too encouraging on the lawsuits, but those that have been married have a little more hope.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:40 PM on 11/05/2008

im sick of liberal who talk about discrimanation so much tho they bash religion anytime they get the chance its a one way street democrats: everybody deserve respect except religion me: inst that dis- democrat:shush me:bu- democrat;eh .cali does not hate gays if you dont like a person doesnt mean you hate him you just dont likem you shouldnt have a reason to dislike a person or maybe a race yuo just do enuogh said democrat say there for the people but there only just for the people they chose

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:38 PM on 11/05/2008

While I dont agree with BASHING religion, when people are infringing on the civil rights of others and doing it because of religion, that's certainly something that needs to be discussed.

It's not that religious people don't deserve respect. It's that when religion tries to trample the rights of others, that's NOT ok, and needs to be dealt with.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:40 PM on 11/05/2008
- madzippy I'm a Fan of madzippy 2 fans permalink

here, here!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:44 PM on 11/05/2008
- Pearlswan I'm a Fan of Pearlswan 34 fans permalink
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You write like Sarah Palin talks. Learn to spell if you want respect. How can a reasonable person waste their time trying to understand this jibberish if you cannot take the time to express it clearly enough to be read?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:44 PM on 11/05/2008
- ldillworth I'm a Fan of ldillworth 3 fans permalink

First off, you need to learn to proof read. Secondly, the United States Constution contains the Establishment Clause for a reason, you and the religous have every right to live your life according to the religion of your choice, but you do not have the right to legislate those beliefs into the lives of all other citizens.

And lastly, I will be more inclined to respect the religous and their beliefs when they respect mine. Instead of being a hypocrit with all your judgement, why don't you try actually living the philosophy of Jesus?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:44 PM on 11/05/2008
- madzippy I'm a Fan of madzippy 2 fans permalink

everyone does deserve respect...­and respect is a two way street.

think of marriage as any other right...li­ke freedom of speech. you may not agree with my point of view, and i may not agree with yours. but we should be concerned anytime attempts are made to diminish those rights.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:50 PM on 11/05/2008
- CSP I'm a Fan of CSP permalink

YOU are asking me to be TOLERANT OF INTOLERANCE!!! Do you realize how insultingly ridiculous that is?? I should respect your right to disrespect and oppress me??? masakox, you are a real piece of work. Should you respect the foot that kicks you in the butt if I ever saw you in person?!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:58 PM on 11/05/2008

Though I am ecstatic about Obama's landslide victory, I feel enormous despair over the passage of Prop. 8. Similar to the dispair I felt over Bush's reelection in '04. My thoughts are now as they were then. How could so many people be so stupid? I can't help but feel that the lies and fear disseminated to those who follow the Christian right will always trump the open truth-seeking mind. After all, why bother to think for yourself, when you have bible-thumping zealots to do it for you?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:37 PM on 11/05/2008
- cylindar I'm a Fan of cylindar 7 fans permalink

Whats the big deal? Nobody cares. We have bigger issues to deal with.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:36 PM on 11/05/2008

You mean YOU don't care and YOU have bigger issues to deal with.

You don't need to tell us that there are people who are apathetic about civil rights, we saw that from the vote on this.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:38 PM on 11/05/2008
- sisililip I'm a Fan of sisililip 2 fans permalink

This is a civil rights issue and I CARE!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:38 PM on 11/05/2008
- steamboat I'm a Fan of steamboat 44 fans permalink

Bill Clinton said 'don't ask, don't tell' so whats the problem. I want everybody to be happy. I respect a person's choice on what they are. Hey, results of an election are what they are. The people of California spoke. So there it is...Come back in 2 years with a well-organized campaign and proposition to defeat the one that won yesterday.­.....BTW, as far as a civil-rights issue its not quite the same as say the civil-rights of blacks in the south.. .......Whe­n a black man is walking across the street I know he's black. And when a gay man is walking across the street I do NOT know he's gay unless he tells people. Thats the difference­.......BTW­, African-Americans (especially the ones I know) are the biggest homophobes around.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:55 PM on 11/05/2008
- steamboat I'm a Fan of steamboat 44 fans permalink

Well Said......­........Be­sides, the people of California have spoken in a secret-ballot vote and in a democratic and peaceful manner. The wish of the people should be honored.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:40 PM on 11/05/2008
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Yes. And I am sure that if there was a secret-ballot vote to continue with lynchings 100 years ago that it would have passed as well. Poor argument.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:49 PM on 11/05/2008
- bamboozled I'm a Fan of bamboozled 11 fans permalink

The big deal is, the majority of people shouldn't be allowed to control and oppress the minority.

I'm not gay, but I certainly wouldn't want to see other propositions passed banning religions other than Christianity or banning languages other than English.

We live in a free country (on paper, at least), and it's the government's job to protect those freedoms. They shouldn't be shrugging their responsibilities to let the mob rule.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:50 PM on 11/05/2008

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

If the people of California voted to take all the left handed people with green eyes and throw them in prison, you'd support that?

It's called EQUAL PROTECTION. And it's guaranteed by the constitution.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:59 PM on 11/05/2008
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ok..let's take away your right to........­.fill in the blank.....­......and see what you have to say about it........­.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:02 PM on 11/05/2008
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The under 40 voters voted overwhelmingly against Prop. 8 Time in on our side. When this is overturned at the polls in time, will you still be stating that the wish of the people should be honored? I didn't think so.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:49 PM on 11/05/2008
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Yes, how about that ridiculous heterosexual divorce rate. That seems to be a bigger issue on families. How do you think the citizens of California should DEAL with that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:47 PM on 11/05/2008

The divorce rate has been falling, per capita, since 1982.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:17 PM on 11/05/2008
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....really­? was your marriage dissolved by a vote yesterday? mine was. want to look me in the eye and say that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:01 PM on 11/05/2008
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BTW, the funny thing about California Prop measures is that in 2 yrs you could have another measure on the ballot stripping the Prop 8 language from the state constitution and completely undoing this. It's not over.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:30 PM on 11/05/2008

Absolutely. That's why only requiring simple majority seems so wacky - if public opinion swings back and forth between 49/51%, a particular measure could keep getting put on and taken off the constitution.

With something as important as a constitution, wouldn't it make sense to want some kind of stability?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:34 PM on 11/05/2008
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