Faces Of GOP Schism Starting To Take Shape

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First Posted: 11-18-08 02:48 PM   |   Updated: 12-19-08 05:12 AM

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As glib as it is to talk about how the 2008 election left the GOP in a fractious state, this is not just idle tea-time chatter for poli-sci nabobs: the GOP is faced with a Classic versus New Coke decision. They can dial up the Palin populism or chart a new course along with the Grand New Party types. And we can already start ascribing faces to each side. Ana Marie Cox has been assessing the future figureheads of the GOP, and, in a pair of interviews for The Daily Beast, the contrasts between the two potential party personalities emerge in striking fashion.

Mike Pence is a congressman from Indiana who's set to take over as chair of the House Republican Conference. About all you need to know about the guy is contained in Cox's deck text: he thinks "the GOP lost in 2008 by not being conservative enough."

Q: What do you think happened to Republicans this cycle?


PENCE: Well, I think Republicans lost because of a combination of a very well-run, national campaign by the Democratic Party and the Democratic nominee, and a profound loss of credibility on issues of fiscal discipline, limited government, and reform. And I think the way back is for us with OUR voters, is to renew our commitment to putting in to practice what we've always professed.

Of course, the one thing that the Mike Pences of the world are reluctant to address is the fact that the cohort he refers to as "OUR voters" were presented with a number of variations on the classic conservative candidate, and moved very quickly to anoint McCain. But I digress. Pence's larger concern is about the size of government, and he declares Bush's "big government conservatism" to be "a failed experiment." Frankly, I think that the failed experiment of the Bush Presidency had less to do with the size of government than it did with the overall lack of competence featured in the governance.

Q: But with the election of Obama, Americans have clearly embraced the idea of big government. What successful political candidates of the modern era have promised smaller government?


PENCE: I think the candidacies of George W. Bush certainly professed a commitment to fiscal disciple. I remember even Bill Clinton in his day. I remember the state of the union address, when he said, "The era of big government is over."

Q: But do you feel like he followed through on that promise?

PENCE: With a Republican majority in Congress, you saw President Clinton sign balanced budgets and bring about welfare reform. But I still believe in my heart, that most Americans know that the government that governs least governs best and that as government expends, freedom contracts. And I really believe with all of my heart today that the majority of Americans today, regardless of individual election results, or this national election results, are looking for leaders who will apply those principles to the governance of the nation.

Of course, Pence's response more or less neatly ignores the premise of the original question, that voters opted for Obama's vision of governance. Basically, Pence's prescription for what ails his party is to continue doing, to coin a phrase, more of the same, and hope for better results.

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Tim Pawlenty, on the other hand, approached the question in a very different way. Asked to "decode" his vision of the future of the GOP, Pawlenty consciously steers away from bromides, and, significantly, goes right to citing policy initiatives:

Q: I've heard you describe yourself as a traditional, mainstream conservative, but you don't seem that way to me. What is it about you that makes liberals like me not frightened of you?


PAWLENTY: [Laughs] I consider myself a conservative, you know, it's a worn-out phrase, in the Reagan tradition. If you look at the whole Reagan record ... part of it was he was pragmatic, he was hopeful, he was optimistic, he was civil, he was positive. But I think the Republican Party needs to be more contemporary.

Q: When you say "contemporary," you don't mean moderate, so what do you mean? Decode that for me.

PAWLENTY: I will decode that for you. A couple of tangible examples. We were behind on the energy debate. It was a huge need. It was part of the reason we're in this economic trouble and instead of scrambling to come up with some stuff over the last year like we did as a national party, we should have been doing what Minnesota and some other individuals and groups have done and been addressing this aggressively, fifteen or twenty years ago. "Drill, baby, drill" is, not by itself, a comprehensive, contemporary energy strategy. We should not have been the party DRAGGED to the renewable energy debate, we should have been out leading it, with OUR approaches, ideas and incentives for it.

That's an example, another example: just the bread and butter issues. I won't go through them all because your eyes will glaze over, but one actual example is, people are worried--"How am I gonna pay for my kid's tuition?" Republicans could be very modern, reach out to young people by saying, "We're going to reduce your tuition, and here's how we're going to do it. We're going to make the program have more variety, it's going to be more accessible, it's going to be more technologically savvy, it's going to look more like an iPod than a 1940s assembly line. We're gonna offer money to regional universities or universities that can put all or most of their degrees online. And we're gonna help pay for it. Instead of building more buildings, we're migrating delivery of higher education services online and once you add one more student to an online program, the marginal cost is zero--and so instead of having a debate about tuition going up X percent or Y percent, we could be talking about tuition going down X percent or Y percent. And, by the way, you can access it anywhere, any time, best of class..." And that would, I think, relate to young people. It would be technologically "current," it would be talking about reforming the way we deliver a service, it would about providing it better, cheaper, faster... it would be "cool."

Of course, I have to wonder where Pawlenty was keeping this whole tuition-reduction-through-online-advancement idea the whole time he was flacking for -- and perhaps hoping to serve as the Vice-President of -- John McCain, who could have benefited from anything remotely "contemporary," let alone "cool." But this is why I basically consider Pawlenty to be the emerging "formidable opponent" on the GOP side, heading to 2012. Unlike Mike Pence, he seems to understand that a greater obeisance to the "worn-out phrases" that have defined the GOP's side of the endless "Red-versus-Blue" debate will not help his party's future fortunes. Rather, he seems to believe that a cure for the GOP's ailments, and service-oriented, prescriptive policies that address the needs of the electorate, are inextricably linked.

As glib as it is to talk about how the 2008 election left the GOP in a fractious state, this is not just idle tea-time chatter for poli-sci nabobs: the GOP is faced with a Classic versus New Coke deci...
As glib as it is to talk about how the 2008 election left the GOP in a fractious state, this is not just idle tea-time chatter for poli-sci nabobs: the GOP is faced with a Classic versus New Coke deci...
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In Minnesota, his nick name is "T-Paw".

Just so's ya knows.

bye, now!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:13 PM on 11/18/2008

Always remember, birds of a feather do flock together.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:20 PM on 11/18/2008
- Henk I'm a Fan of Henk 20 fans permalink
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T-Paw is what HE wants it to be, really its Tim-aye. (Think South Park)

This reasonable thoughtful Tim-aye is newly minted. Only this last spring he was talking about Gucci wearing, latte drinking, so and so's. He's been wathcing Obama and thinking that the calm reasonable thing might work for him. He is slick and maybe not as empty a suit as Norm is, but he's still a wing nut at heart.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:45 PM on 11/18/2008

ugh... I literally find myself dry-heaving at the thought of Pawlenty as a Presidential contender.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:08 PM on 11/18/2008
- Lilybart I'm a Fan of Lilybart 7 fans permalink

His wife is a big player in the mega-church thing. I fear republicans because of social issues like MY BODY and its reproductive freedom, civil rights for my gay friends, the drug war, the Bill of Rights, which I think IS what America is all about and what makes us different and yes, better.

I can't trust republicans until they stop trying to legislate their religious ideas.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:14 PM on 11/18/2008

I remember in a debate with George Bush when Al Gore said we needed less government. GW looked lost. At the next debate GW SAID WE NEED SMALLER GOVERNMENT. Gore looked at him & said that's what I said. Do'nt quote me, but that's the way it fell.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:17 PM on 11/18/2008
- Vermontah I'm a Fan of Vermontah 20 fans permalink

Republicans are just so damn dumb. And sleazy. You know that this Pawlenty is just reciting lines he thinks can get him elected. He doesn't believe in it. What he believes in is good ol'fashioned Republican fascism. He's lying. They all lie. Republicans suck, every single last one of them.

I for one will be very disappointed if Obama places, as a reaching-a­cross-the-­aisle gesture, a Republican on his cabinet.

Screw'em. Every last one of them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:03 PM on 11/18/2008
- Audrey704 I'm a Fan of Audrey704 2 fans permalink

I think it is great the Obama is willing to reach across the aisle...bu­t my gut hurts when he quotes that both Lincoln and Kennedy did the same.....t­hey both ended up assassinated in office....­he should think very carefully.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:58 PM on 11/18/2008
- weatherwaxx I'm a Fan of weatherwaxx 259 fans permalink

Someone like Chuck Hagel, or Lincoln Chaffee -- one of the few decent people in the party -- would be a good pick. The partisan cr*p has to stop somewhere.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:00 PM on 11/18/2008
- Poboy I'm a Fan of Poboy 21 fans permalink

I think you are looking at Chuck Hagel through rose or media colored lenses.

Here is the real Chucky Cheese.

http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Chuck_Hagel.htm

You stand on firmer groung with Chafee.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Lincoln_Chafee

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:49 AM on 11/19/2008
- LeeCalif I'm a Fan of LeeCalif 72 fans permalink

"But I still believe in my heart, that most Americans know that the government that governs least governs best and that as government expends, freedom contracts. "

Still a deregulator in his little christian heart.

Ahhhhh....­....Earth calling Mike Pence.....­... Come out of it, Man !!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:58 PM on 11/18/2008
- BushBites I'm a Fan of BushBites 31 fans permalink

Pawlenty's pretty sharp for a guy with a mullet.

Pence is a Fox News-Rush Limbaugh Wingnut Idiot.

Go Pence!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:57 PM on 11/18/2008
- Artos I'm a Fan of Artos 85 fans permalink

Pence said, "But I still believe in my heart, that most Americans know that the government that governs least governs best and that as government expends, freedom contracts.­"
Now I know for a fact that Republicans believe In States Rights and that means State Government should be dominant in their eyes, rather than the Federal Government. Pence said that Bush actually created more government and that isn't necessarily true. Bush did a fine job for the Neocons. He did his best to destroy the Government by placing his nabobs in charge with their duty being to screw every Dept. up as best they could. But in so far as Republicans believing in Less government, how can that really be true if they believe in State Government. There are 50 of them. Is that less government or more Government. I would say more. The fact that we do is what causes so much confusion in our laws. Are we one nation or a conglomeration of states. As for Pawlentys college idea. It won't work unless there is an attempt to have realtime contact via a big screen at home. Just doing stuff on a computer is boring. I've tried it and I hated it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:55 PM on 11/18/2008
- LOL123 I'm a Fan of LOL123 2 fans permalink

LOL- yeah they (Republicans ) don't want Government involvement they just want the Government to bail out the institutions that got privatized without oversight because of Government reduction.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:01 PM on 11/18/2008

The Republicans have offered two things in past elections, fear and religion. Divide with wedge
issues like same sex marriage, make people afraid with threats of mushroom clouds. As younger
voters go to the polls, the issue of same sex marriage will not even be a blimp on their screens.
More and more younger people care less about biracial or same sex marriage. Republicans
want to go back to the past, my guess would be about 1940. The people around McCain at his
rallies were older than dirt. You saw old bald men and blue haired ladies. What would they know about the 21st century?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:52 PM on 11/18/2008

The election of Obama was not about the people wanting big government as Linkins says but rather voters had different reasons for voting for the democrat. White guilt, falling for the media hype, change for change sake, Iraq, financial crisis. Some who voted for Obama not only did not know what his positions were but do not even know their own. This was the farthest thing from an ideological election.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:51 PM on 11/18/2008

The election of Obama was not about the people wanting big government as Linkins says but rather voters had different reasons for not voting for the republican. White guilt, not falling for the Palin hype, change for change sake, Iraq, financial crisis. Some who voted for McCain not only did not know what his positions were but do not even know their own. This was the farthest thing from an ideological election, it was mostly a rejection of Bush and Palin type politics.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:09 PM on 11/18/2008
- walkaway I'm a Fan of walkaway 3 fans permalink
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White guilt? I can't stop laughing. Accusing Obama voters of not understanding his positions on the issues? He was very clear, open and eager to discuss them.

McCain/Palin's entire campaign was about nothing but fear and pandering to the least informed voter.

Rebublican voter=Stupid

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:19 PM on 11/18/2008

Pence is one of many conservatives who seem to actually believe there were millions of American voters who went to the polls and said:
"That McCain guy isn't right-wing enough for me, so I'm votin' for the lefty!"

They endorsed George W. Bush twice, they think Sarah Palin is "America's foremost expert on energy issues" and they think 70 million votes for Barack Obama is clearly a sign the country wants to move farther to the right.

How could anyone question their judgement?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:51 PM on 11/18/2008
- LOL123 I'm a Fan of LOL123 2 fans permalink

"OUR voters" were presented with a number of variations on the classic conservative candidate, and moved very quickly to anoint McCain. But I digress"..­.......act­ually your digression is the "whole" point. No one could relate to McCain the "Maverick" or Palin the "beauty pagent woman". These are super hero's we were all looking for an average American who not only made it but can "protect " us at home.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:50 PM on 11/18/2008
- Oonagh I'm a Fan of Oonagh 30 fans permalink

If the Republicans keep going the route they are on right now they are going to implode... you cannot just appeal to a minority and get elected ... and the scare and hate tactics just won't work anymore.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:48 PM on 11/18/2008
- Eriq I'm a Fan of Eriq 15 fans permalink
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Cut, dice, slice, and mince the Republican Party. Take 'em out by going for the jugular!
It's time we had a new opposition party, not the fascist party that is the GOP.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:40 PM on 11/18/2008
- TAIsabel I'm a Fan of TAIsabel 47 fans permalink
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This Party is in disarray and will most probably splinter by the time 2012 comes around. Hell, we may even get that dreaded "third party" with the intellectual, conservative Goldwater, Buckley ,et al, Republicans fighting for their views against the Palin S--T Storm of the Wall Mart Joe Plumbers, Tito Builders, Mae the short order cook......­....It could end up that Ron Paul can finally get a real soap box.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:38 PM on 11/18/2008

Obama's opponent in 2012 will be either Pawlenty or Jindal. If the remaining parts of the GOP that remain somewhat sane prevail then Pawlenty will win, if the Limbaugh wing of the party prevails then Jindal will win. However i don't see either of them beating Obama.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:37 PM on 11/18/2008
- balthus I'm a Fan of balthus 14 fans permalink

Wow! You must have some kind of a crystal ball! Bet four years ago, just after Bush was last elected, you predicted Obama would be the Democratic nominee, right?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:18 PM on 11/18/2008
- bubbuh I'm a Fan of bubbuh 130 fans permalink
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So, who's going to start the new conservative party after the GOP completes its self-immolation?

I wonder what it is going to be called.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:34 PM on 11/18/2008
- LeeCalif I'm a Fan of LeeCalif 72 fans permalink

The CWC Party.

Christ We Can.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:59 PM on 11/18/2008
- balthus I'm a Fan of balthus 14 fans permalink

Who cares about the new conservative party? It's going to be powerless and irrelevant. The real question is, should Obama steer too far to the middle, who's going to start the new progressive party?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:20 PM on 11/18/2008
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