Faces Of GOP Schism Starting To Take Shape

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First Posted: 11-18-08 02:48 PM   |   Updated: 12-19-08 05:12 AM

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As glib as it is to talk about how the 2008 election left the GOP in a fractious state, this is not just idle tea-time chatter for poli-sci nabobs: the GOP is faced with a Classic versus New Coke decision. They can dial up the Palin populism or chart a new course along with the Grand New Party types. And we can already start ascribing faces to each side. Ana Marie Cox has been assessing the future figureheads of the GOP, and, in a pair of interviews for The Daily Beast, the contrasts between the two potential party personalities emerge in striking fashion.

Mike Pence is a congressman from Indiana who's set to take over as chair of the House Republican Conference. About all you need to know about the guy is contained in Cox's deck text: he thinks "the GOP lost in 2008 by not being conservative enough."

Q: What do you think happened to Republicans this cycle?


PENCE: Well, I think Republicans lost because of a combination of a very well-run, national campaign by the Democratic Party and the Democratic nominee, and a profound loss of credibility on issues of fiscal discipline, limited government, and reform. And I think the way back is for us with OUR voters, is to renew our commitment to putting in to practice what we've always professed.

Of course, the one thing that the Mike Pences of the world are reluctant to address is the fact that the cohort he refers to as "OUR voters" were presented with a number of variations on the classic conservative candidate, and moved very quickly to anoint McCain. But I digress. Pence's larger concern is about the size of government, and he declares Bush's "big government conservatism" to be "a failed experiment." Frankly, I think that the failed experiment of the Bush Presidency had less to do with the size of government than it did with the overall lack of competence featured in the governance.

Q: But with the election of Obama, Americans have clearly embraced the idea of big government. What successful political candidates of the modern era have promised smaller government?


PENCE: I think the candidacies of George W. Bush certainly professed a commitment to fiscal disciple. I remember even Bill Clinton in his day. I remember the state of the union address, when he said, "The era of big government is over."

Q: But do you feel like he followed through on that promise?

PENCE: With a Republican majority in Congress, you saw President Clinton sign balanced budgets and bring about welfare reform. But I still believe in my heart, that most Americans know that the government that governs least governs best and that as government expends, freedom contracts. And I really believe with all of my heart today that the majority of Americans today, regardless of individual election results, or this national election results, are looking for leaders who will apply those principles to the governance of the nation.

Of course, Pence's response more or less neatly ignores the premise of the original question, that voters opted for Obama's vision of governance. Basically, Pence's prescription for what ails his party is to continue doing, to coin a phrase, more of the same, and hope for better results.

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Tim Pawlenty, on the other hand, approached the question in a very different way. Asked to "decode" his vision of the future of the GOP, Pawlenty consciously steers away from bromides, and, significantly, goes right to citing policy initiatives:

Q: I've heard you describe yourself as a traditional, mainstream conservative, but you don't seem that way to me. What is it about you that makes liberals like me not frightened of you?


PAWLENTY: [Laughs] I consider myself a conservative, you know, it's a worn-out phrase, in the Reagan tradition. If you look at the whole Reagan record ... part of it was he was pragmatic, he was hopeful, he was optimistic, he was civil, he was positive. But I think the Republican Party needs to be more contemporary.

Q: When you say "contemporary," you don't mean moderate, so what do you mean? Decode that for me.

PAWLENTY: I will decode that for you. A couple of tangible examples. We were behind on the energy debate. It was a huge need. It was part of the reason we're in this economic trouble and instead of scrambling to come up with some stuff over the last year like we did as a national party, we should have been doing what Minnesota and some other individuals and groups have done and been addressing this aggressively, fifteen or twenty years ago. "Drill, baby, drill" is, not by itself, a comprehensive, contemporary energy strategy. We should not have been the party DRAGGED to the renewable energy debate, we should have been out leading it, with OUR approaches, ideas and incentives for it.

That's an example, another example: just the bread and butter issues. I won't go through them all because your eyes will glaze over, but one actual example is, people are worried--"How am I gonna pay for my kid's tuition?" Republicans could be very modern, reach out to young people by saying, "We're going to reduce your tuition, and here's how we're going to do it. We're going to make the program have more variety, it's going to be more accessible, it's going to be more technologically savvy, it's going to look more like an iPod than a 1940s assembly line. We're gonna offer money to regional universities or universities that can put all or most of their degrees online. And we're gonna help pay for it. Instead of building more buildings, we're migrating delivery of higher education services online and once you add one more student to an online program, the marginal cost is zero--and so instead of having a debate about tuition going up X percent or Y percent, we could be talking about tuition going down X percent or Y percent. And, by the way, you can access it anywhere, any time, best of class..." And that would, I think, relate to young people. It would be technologically "current," it would be talking about reforming the way we deliver a service, it would about providing it better, cheaper, faster... it would be "cool."

Of course, I have to wonder where Pawlenty was keeping this whole tuition-reduction-through-online-advancement idea the whole time he was flacking for -- and perhaps hoping to serve as the Vice-President of -- John McCain, who could have benefited from anything remotely "contemporary," let alone "cool." But this is why I basically consider Pawlenty to be the emerging "formidable opponent" on the GOP side, heading to 2012. Unlike Mike Pence, he seems to understand that a greater obeisance to the "worn-out phrases" that have defined the GOP's side of the endless "Red-versus-Blue" debate will not help his party's future fortunes. Rather, he seems to believe that a cure for the GOP's ailments, and service-oriented, prescriptive policies that address the needs of the electorate, are inextricably linked.

As glib as it is to talk about how the 2008 election left the GOP in a fractious state, this is not just idle tea-time chatter for poli-sci nabobs: the GOP is faced with a Classic versus New Coke deci...
As glib as it is to talk about how the 2008 election left the GOP in a fractious state, this is not just idle tea-time chatter for poli-sci nabobs: the GOP is faced with a Classic versus New Coke deci...
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- markinaz I'm a Fan of markinaz 3 fans permalink

The GOP is against "big government" when it in no way benefits them. That's why they were so against welfare. But throw in big increases & programs for the military/industrial complex and their friends in the oil, gas & pharma industries and hey, they are merely "priming the pump" for job creation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:43 PM on 11/18/2008
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Pence could add some spice to the Pawlenty-Jindal duel.
Now we have an interesting trio for the 3 year dash to the primaries:
http://e-blogules.blogspot.com/2008/11/gop-primaries-2012-kick-off-charlie.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:33 PM on 11/18/2008
    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:30 PM on 11/18/2008
- Jacksonian I'm a Fan of Jacksonian 20 fans permalink
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MN Gov. Tim Pawlenty's ascension in national politics is as ridiculous as Sarah Palin's rise. Here's a guy who was barely elected in 2002 and who was reelected in 2006 only after the Democratic nominee, former Minnesota Attorney General Mike Hatch, self destructed. He's a mediocre talent who, after worshipping for eight years at the church of George W. Bush, now purports to lead the G.O.P. reform movement. This is the guy whose platform promised "no new taxes" and whose administration then called for legislation to increase state revenues through "fees." His transparent euphemisms notwithstanding, he's also the guy who vetoed the highway bill-- just months before the 35W bridge collapsed over the Mississippi. This is the future of the Republican party? Democrats are quietly cheering.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:29 PM on 11/18/2008
- DFL I'm a Fan of DFL 36 fans permalink
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Up in MN. the only reason he was re-elected over Hatch is because of some rich neo con from TX. that sent him money to swift-boat Hatch!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:52 PM on 11/18/2008
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Why doesn't Pawlenty just become a Democrat? He sounds like one. His claim that the Republicans should have been leading the renewable energy debate is great. Except that it's in direct conflict with Big Oil, which is largely Republican, and it doesn't want renewable energy solutions. It wants to make as much money off what's running out until it runs out and then and only then will it figure out new energy solutions.

As for Pence, he mentions one of the worst Republican rubrics of this last administration, the notion that 'incompetence' was the problem with the many ills of the Bush Presidency. False. It's not incompetence if you're not even trying to hit the bulls-eye. It's called indifference.

The Republicans have been the party of big business interests far and beyond the Democrats (not that they're innocent) and the single focus of the Iraq invasion was boots on the ground and occupying the oil fields.

Guess what? They did a pretty good job of that. "Oh, thousands of innocent people died in the process? Sorry. We're incompetent. Oopsy. Our bad."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:27 PM on 11/18/2008
- IgIzBliss I'm a Fan of IgIzBliss 5 fans permalink

the bull's eye? They weren't even trying to hit the edge of the target.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:01 PM on 11/18/2008

I live in Minnesota. Pawlenty's hand-picked Minnesota State Colleges and Universities board of trustees does everything in its power to treat education like it's a profit-oriented business. In the community colleges, it's all about student numbers and student retention, nevermind the quality of the education or the capacity of faculty, administration, and counseling staff (which has been decreased to laughably small numbers on most campuses) to keep up with growing crowds of students. Our class sizes are abysmally huge. And then they wonder (and want to put the blame everywhere but where it belongs) why so many of the students who attempt to go on to four-year programs struggle and even fail. One instructor with hundreds of students is not going to match the standards of university courses. We need to forget "profits" and get back to priorities.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:25 PM on 11/18/2008
- Rynox I'm a Fan of Rynox 7 fans permalink

Mike Pence is solid.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:23 PM on 11/18/2008
- postman606 I'm a Fan of postman606 67 fans permalink
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Solid as as The Rock of Ages.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:24 PM on 11/18/2008

But like a rock only dumber. When will the conservatives realize that their agenda is sooo over and wrong?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:37 PM on 11/18/2008
- elcojonu I'm a Fan of elcojonu 28 fans permalink

Good, run him in 2012.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:07 PM on 11/18/2008
- Mach8 I'm a Fan of Mach8 35 fans permalink

Pawlenty sounds like something I should be eating with milk and a high-fibre bran muffin.

When your platform is largely built on ending abortion and cutting taxes for the rich, there really aren't many places to go. Republicans make things CHEAPER? I'll believe it when I see it. These are the same guys who have been torpedoing our economy and rewarding their friends for the last 30 years, give or take a Clinton or two.

BEGONE TO THE FRINGE SUPPLY-SIDERS!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:20 PM on 11/18/2008
- Dystopic I'm a Fan of Dystopic 20 fans permalink
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get back to real conservatism... you know - fiscal responsibility and not giving a crap what you do in private ... Legalize Cannabis to begin with.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:19 PM on 11/18/2008
- Agnim I'm a Fan of Agnim 6 fans permalink

I'm so sick of Democrats allowing ignorant/deceptive Republi-cons to continue fooling Americans on the 'big' vs 'small' govment nonsense.

Republi-cons ARE the 'big govment' party!
Record deficits and record national debt and record military spending (under Reagan and Bush) ARE part of 'big govment'!

Why let Republ-cons to ignore the fact that BIG LIABILITIES ARE ALSO PART OF GOVMENT, part of big govment!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:04 PM on 11/18/2008
- Woodguy I'm a Fan of Woodguy 3 fans permalink
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What a refreshing turnaround to see a Republican like Gov. Pawlenty acknowledge the power of the Internet (even though I don't fully endorse his ideas as shown). Especially after hearing Ted Stevens, when trying to pass a telecommunications bill, decscribe the Internet being a "series of tubes" that could get all clogged up with information, and his confusion over what email really was. And who can forget John McCain, who had people do the Internet thing for him. Many Republicans, including Pence, are hopelessly lost in the past, and unless they can at least acknowledge the present (let alone the future), they will become extinct.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:04 PM on 11/18/2008
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 359 fans permalink
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Scratch TPaw's "educational plan" and you will find Republican cronies with their hands out--privatizing education on the taxpayer's money.

NOT ON MY WATCH.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:12 PM on 11/18/2008
- kgb999 I'm a Fan of kgb999 19 fans permalink

Interesting fact I just learned today: Idaho state schools charge an additional $35 per credit hour for web based courses or courses with a web based component. Lower nominal cost eh Pawlenty? Maybe you should send out a memo to your GOPmates.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:01 PM on 11/18/2008
- mowoods I'm a Fan of mowoods 2 fans permalink

Extra charges for internet courses is pretty standard. They are greatly offset by the reduced price of living at home versus living on campus or having to commute to school though.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:20 PM on 11/18/2008

Why should any state or school charge extra to online students? Many online students (stay-at-home mothers of young children; people with full-time day jobs and families, people who are often out of town, etc.) would not enroll at all if they had to come to campus. The online option greatly increases tuition income and headcount for schools. Online students do not put any wear and tear on facilities. They are not in the buildings; they do not fill classrooms, they do not use the parking lots, restrooms, cafeteria, etc. If all those online students came to campus, your schools would find they need to build more classrooms, buy more desks and chairs, pave more parking lots, open and equip more computer labs, and staff a bigger library. Online students do save schools money, at least enough money to pay for the extra tech support.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:33 PM on 11/18/2008
- SueW0 I'm a Fan of SueW0 2 fans permalink

Big government? Smaller government? What we want is smart government. I don't think there is a chance in heck that anyone will ever make goverment "smaller".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:55 PM on 11/18/2008
- rextrek I'm a Fan of rextrek 34 fans permalink
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Pence just stated a week or so again - that he HOPES the GOP rebuilds thier party in 2012 on "The Sanctity of Marriage"??? huh..? Have they not learned anything!!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:53 PM on 11/18/2008
- NeoLiberal I'm a Fan of NeoLiberal 16 fans permalink

...as well as a divorce (or at least good intervention therapy...) from the bigotry-in­tolerance-­addicted far right wing of their party.

If one message is loud and clear, it was that elections can now be won WITHOUT a majority of whites, but iwth a coaltion of every other demographic.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:50 PM on 11/18/2008
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