Faces Of GOP Schism Starting To Take Shape

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First Posted: 11-18-08 02:48 PM   |   Updated: 12-19-08 05:12 AM

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As glib as it is to talk about how the 2008 election left the GOP in a fractious state, this is not just idle tea-time chatter for poli-sci nabobs: the GOP is faced with a Classic versus New Coke decision. They can dial up the Palin populism or chart a new course along with the Grand New Party types. And we can already start ascribing faces to each side. Ana Marie Cox has been assessing the future figureheads of the GOP, and, in a pair of interviews for The Daily Beast, the contrasts between the two potential party personalities emerge in striking fashion.

Mike Pence is a congressman from Indiana who's set to take over as chair of the House Republican Conference. About all you need to know about the guy is contained in Cox's deck text: he thinks "the GOP lost in 2008 by not being conservative enough."

Q: What do you think happened to Republicans this cycle?


PENCE: Well, I think Republicans lost because of a combination of a very well-run, national campaign by the Democratic Party and the Democratic nominee, and a profound loss of credibility on issues of fiscal discipline, limited government, and reform. And I think the way back is for us with OUR voters, is to renew our commitment to putting in to practice what we've always professed.

Of course, the one thing that the Mike Pences of the world are reluctant to address is the fact that the cohort he refers to as "OUR voters" were presented with a number of variations on the classic conservative candidate, and moved very quickly to anoint McCain. But I digress. Pence's larger concern is about the size of government, and he declares Bush's "big government conservatism" to be "a failed experiment." Frankly, I think that the failed experiment of the Bush Presidency had less to do with the size of government than it did with the overall lack of competence featured in the governance.

Q: But with the election of Obama, Americans have clearly embraced the idea of big government. What successful political candidates of the modern era have promised smaller government?


PENCE: I think the candidacies of George W. Bush certainly professed a commitment to fiscal disciple. I remember even Bill Clinton in his day. I remember the state of the union address, when he said, "The era of big government is over."

Q: But do you feel like he followed through on that promise?

PENCE: With a Republican majority in Congress, you saw President Clinton sign balanced budgets and bring about welfare reform. But I still believe in my heart, that most Americans know that the government that governs least governs best and that as government expends, freedom contracts. And I really believe with all of my heart today that the majority of Americans today, regardless of individual election results, or this national election results, are looking for leaders who will apply those principles to the governance of the nation.

Of course, Pence's response more or less neatly ignores the premise of the original question, that voters opted for Obama's vision of governance. Basically, Pence's prescription for what ails his party is to continue doing, to coin a phrase, more of the same, and hope for better results.

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Tim Pawlenty, on the other hand, approached the question in a very different way. Asked to "decode" his vision of the future of the GOP, Pawlenty consciously steers away from bromides, and, significantly, goes right to citing policy initiatives:

Q: I've heard you describe yourself as a traditional, mainstream conservative, but you don't seem that way to me. What is it about you that makes liberals like me not frightened of you?


PAWLENTY: [Laughs] I consider myself a conservative, you know, it's a worn-out phrase, in the Reagan tradition. If you look at the whole Reagan record ... part of it was he was pragmatic, he was hopeful, he was optimistic, he was civil, he was positive. But I think the Republican Party needs to be more contemporary.

Q: When you say "contemporary," you don't mean moderate, so what do you mean? Decode that for me.

PAWLENTY: I will decode that for you. A couple of tangible examples. We were behind on the energy debate. It was a huge need. It was part of the reason we're in this economic trouble and instead of scrambling to come up with some stuff over the last year like we did as a national party, we should have been doing what Minnesota and some other individuals and groups have done and been addressing this aggressively, fifteen or twenty years ago. "Drill, baby, drill" is, not by itself, a comprehensive, contemporary energy strategy. We should not have been the party DRAGGED to the renewable energy debate, we should have been out leading it, with OUR approaches, ideas and incentives for it.

That's an example, another example: just the bread and butter issues. I won't go through them all because your eyes will glaze over, but one actual example is, people are worried--"How am I gonna pay for my kid's tuition?" Republicans could be very modern, reach out to young people by saying, "We're going to reduce your tuition, and here's how we're going to do it. We're going to make the program have more variety, it's going to be more accessible, it's going to be more technologically savvy, it's going to look more like an iPod than a 1940s assembly line. We're gonna offer money to regional universities or universities that can put all or most of their degrees online. And we're gonna help pay for it. Instead of building more buildings, we're migrating delivery of higher education services online and once you add one more student to an online program, the marginal cost is zero--and so instead of having a debate about tuition going up X percent or Y percent, we could be talking about tuition going down X percent or Y percent. And, by the way, you can access it anywhere, any time, best of class..." And that would, I think, relate to young people. It would be technologically "current," it would be talking about reforming the way we deliver a service, it would about providing it better, cheaper, faster... it would be "cool."

Of course, I have to wonder where Pawlenty was keeping this whole tuition-reduction-through-online-advancement idea the whole time he was flacking for -- and perhaps hoping to serve as the Vice-President of -- John McCain, who could have benefited from anything remotely "contemporary," let alone "cool." But this is why I basically consider Pawlenty to be the emerging "formidable opponent" on the GOP side, heading to 2012. Unlike Mike Pence, he seems to understand that a greater obeisance to the "worn-out phrases" that have defined the GOP's side of the endless "Red-versus-Blue" debate will not help his party's future fortunes. Rather, he seems to believe that a cure for the GOP's ailments, and service-oriented, prescriptive policies that address the needs of the electorate, are inextricably linked.

As glib as it is to talk about how the 2008 election left the GOP in a fractious state, this is not just idle tea-time chatter for poli-sci nabobs: the GOP is faced with a Classic versus New Coke deci...
As glib as it is to talk about how the 2008 election left the GOP in a fractious state, this is not just idle tea-time chatter for poli-sci nabobs: the GOP is faced with a Classic versus New Coke deci...
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- Village I'm a Fan of Village 8 fans permalink

40% of the Republicans are the Crazy Christians, and they aren't going back in the closet. The GOP had always kept them out of sight so as not to spook the independents, but Bush, bless his heart, pulled back the curtain.

40% is the largest piece of the Republican pie. The GOP will go where they are told by the 40%, who don't like NY or MASS governors.

They want Huckabee/Palin in '0h-12'. I say, give it to them

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:11 PM on 11/18/2008
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We need to give the Republicans a "Swirly" and let go of their feet. They are clueless.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:11 PM on 11/18/2008

The only swirling I've been doing is with my glass since Obama won.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:47 PM on 11/18/2008
- Chas53 I'm a Fan of Chas53 2 fans permalink

Pence is a doofus. His main thang is "The sanctity of marriage". Does he hang with Vitter?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:11 PM on 11/18/2008
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Online education would suck. People learn in many ways and reducing it to interaction with a computer would be a very poor substitution.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:08 PM on 11/18/2008

Online education works for me, I'm 47, but my son is also in college, and he needs to go to a building, where he can interact with other people his age!

Reducing all college to online education is a bad idea. My twin daughters went away to college and it was one of the best things in the world for them in terms of education, both academic and real world!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:11 PM on 11/18/2008
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I ll bet it was good for ur twin daughters. WINK!!!!!! AAAH i just try to make a joke.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:24 PM on 11/18/2008
- mari2JJ I'm a Fan of mari2JJ 41 fans permalink

I went to college when I was 30 and the best thing about it was that I loved the interchange of ideas and the differing views of all of the students. I cannot imagine how that would be duplicated on line. I took one graduate course online but I truly missed being able to bounce ideas off of others and to exchange even small talk about an idea.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:54 PM on 11/18/2008
- Horus45 I'm a Fan of Horus45 35 fans permalink
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And they were the ones saying that us Democrats were not a unified party during the election runoff.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:06 PM on 11/18/2008
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The GOP is in serious trouble because their every dimension, social, economic, geopolitical, environmental, fiscal, etc., etc.--each lending itself to a potential faction vying for power--is utterly discredited. Which loser or combination of losers will they end up going with?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:05 PM on 11/18/2008
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I always chuckle when Republicans try to reach out to young people by being "cool." It reminds me of advertising that tries to entice the hip Gen whatevers by being "edgy" and showing dudes with shaggy hair skateboarding and listening to "crazy" music and stuff. How zany and hip can cereal get?
Cringe.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:02 PM on 11/18/2008
- haval2 I'm a Fan of haval2 48 fans permalink

the on line classes and degrees might render an entire generation sarah palin smart. it could be a disaster...not to mention the cheating...can't be too hard to hack into and get a degree for nothing. we cannot have more right wing non intellectuals born of lame schemes. intellectual curiosity is a big void in the evangelical mindset part of the GOP...way beyond being inarticuate ...there are a great many with no education and it shows. we don't need more of that and on line classes is a bad direction.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:02 PM on 11/18/2008
- mowoods I'm a Fan of mowoods 2 fans permalink

I have taken college courses both on campus and on-line.

I found that students in on-line courses were much more diverse. There were people from all over the world in my on-line courses, which provided a broader range of ideas and perspectives.

Most internet courses include on-line discussions where students can discuss a topic for days versus a typical classroom where time constraints limit dialogue. My work load in on-line courses was heavier, and I learned more in them than traditional ones.

On-line education also makes it easier for non-traditional students to take courses. Adults working and raising a family may not have time during the day or evening to squeeze in a class. They can attend an on-line course and turn in assignments whenever it fits their schedule.

It isn't any easier to cheat in an on-line course either. Finals in my on-line courses were administered on campus. Students who didn't live nearby were required to find a proctored testing site and make arrangements in advance.

If America wants to become more competitive , we need to make higher education more accessible and affordable for a larger percentage of our population. On-line courses generally cost more per credit hour, but don't require the enormous fees universities require for room and board. This makes them cheaper over all. Providing more opportunities for students to earn degrees through on-line programs would certainly be a start.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:51 PM on 11/18/2008
- helonias I'm a Fan of helonias 266 fans permalink
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So the sanctity of marriage guy will save us.

Hallelujah

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:57 PM on 11/18/2008
- Tweet I'm a Fan of Tweet 10 fans permalink
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Pawlenty says his online education plan would be cool.

Cool.

What does a Republican know about cool?

The reason you go to a university is not to learn catechistically, but through an exchange of ideas, discussion, mental stimulation. You also go to college to meet people whom you can make a part of your future life and career path. You can't do either of those online.

We don't want people making education policy who don't understand how education works.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:56 PM on 11/18/2008

Yeah, sort of like you really don't want people making governmental policy who don't understand how government works (or even hate government). Republicans - neo.cons - are great at coming up with plans for things they know nothing about.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:16 PM on 11/18/2008

It's a great idea. Pawlenty should institute this in the fundie universities. Perhaps these up and coming wingnuts could disconnect themselves out of our lives.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:31 PM on 11/18/2008
- mowoods I'm a Fan of mowoods 2 fans permalink

I don't think any one person could possibly know why everyone else goes to a university. It seems awfully presumptious of you to think that you can define what an education should be for everyone else in the country.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:55 PM on 11/18/2008
- Chironomid I'm a Fan of Chironomid 22 fans permalink

We are a geographically huge nation with 350 million people and growing rapidly. We've picked up 50 million just in the last few years. Our cities, counties, and states have their own functions, but also have to have the frameworks that make it possible for them to all function together. Utility corridors and the regulation of power grids are a good example of that; there are many others.

How small do you expect government to be while enjoying a civilized society with roads, eduction, 24/7 electrical power, clean water and the like?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:56 PM on 11/18/2008
- wpiv926 I'm a Fan of wpiv926 25 fans permalink

Pawlenty is the voice of reason here. If republicans are smart, (now there's an oxymoron) they will listen to him. Do I, as a democrat, hold out any illusions that the rethugs will listen to him?? Answer - NO. I couldn't be more thrilled.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:52 PM on 11/18/2008
- rebeltoady I'm a Fan of rebeltoady 2 fans permalink

Don't be fooled by Pawlenty, he's no moderate. He's a classic, reduce taxes for the wealthy and spend nothing on infrastructure conservative who's trashed Minnesota state finances, and appointed a truly dismal number of religious nuts and and conservative ideologues. Like most conservatives of his ilk, he appoints people who pander to business interests and pervert the mission of the departments they run. He loves to tap dance and posture but when you strip off the PR crap he's another useless conservative do nothing or do worse. He's surely no "new thing", he's just Timmy Boy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:45 PM on 11/18/2008
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 452 fans permalink
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Yup, hand-picked Cheney-Rove puppet. We Minnesotans can tell ya: Timmy the TOOL.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:58 PM on 11/18/2008
- Wilbur I'm a Fan of Wilbur 25 fans permalink

BINGO!!!

Wilbur

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:10 PM on 11/18/2008
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Pence can wear the hair shirt if that is what he prefers, ... and Pawlenty can wear the double-breasted suit with a vest and wide tie.

Neither of them understand that they are selling Woolworth in a Wal-Mart market. It is the most ironic of ironies to me, that these very princes of capitalism in America are absolutely clueless to the change that has occurred on their watch and to their party.

Shhhhh! Let them slumber a bit longer. We still have a bit more work to do. I love to see them argue about the foundations of their party, when those foundations are termite-riddled and gnawed to the ground.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:44 PM on 11/18/2008
- bev I'm a Fan of bev permalink
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Don't let Pawlenty fool you. He has totally been beholden the the very wealthy "no new taxes " crowd in MN. The MN good life has come to an end under his leadership with the destruction of our public schools, falling bridges, ect, ect.! He comes off as such a "good" guy but he is a real jerk.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:39 PM on 11/18/2008
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 452 fans permalink
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Pawlenty and Coleman: one and the same animal.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:01 PM on 11/18/2008
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