Is The Hybrid Car Battery Problem Solved?

New York Times:

AFS Trinity Power, a small company in Bellevue, Wash., says it has the problem licked. In January, the company rolled out a small S.U.V. that uses lithium-ion batteries nursed along by common electrical storage devices called capacitors.

Capacitors take a trickle of energy and store it up so it can be released in great bursts. They can also take a huge slug of energy quickly, and then deliver it slowly. This is at the heart of AFS Trinity's innovation.

Electrically speaking, the capacitors, which look like an 18-pack of shrink-wrapped Red Bull cans, sit between the batteries and the wheels, so the flow into or out of the batteries is always fairly gentle, even if the car is making jackrabbit starts or panic stops.

Together, they store very little energy -- less than one kilowatt-hour, a tiny fraction of what the lithium-ion batteries do -- but they can charge and discharge almost instantly, almost forever, without damaging themselves, said Edward W. Furia, chief executive of AFS Trinity.

Read the whole story: New York Times

Comments

[research]

These batteries are good for 350k miles 5KWH pack, 25 miles plug in hybrid.

A123 NanoPhosphate cells are safer, more powerful and last a lot longer:

http://www.a123systems.com/applications/plug-in-hybrid

[mamacat]

This idea of using ultra-capacitors in conjunction with high-potential batteries and careful electronic progamming seems like the right way to go.

However, I think I read somewhere else that Trinity has been unable to get anyone in Detroit to pay them any attention, and that the auto shows have not been allowing them to show their demonstration models. In other words, most of the auto manufacturers seem to still be stuck on the idea of using batteries that can be drawn down to near zero potential before charging them up again, something that the battery technology does not yet support. I have read that Prius has been setting up their electronics so that the gas engine kicks in well before the batteries are drained, but I have not read anything about Toyota using ultra-capacitors.

[KillTheMessenger]

"This idea ... seems like the right way to go."

Except, of course, when you actually understand the engineering problem, in which case you know that the capacitors are not needed because the batteries are not deteriorating from peak current load but from deep-discharge cycles against which expensive capacitors are completely useless.

But if you are keen on losing your money, you should invest it by all means in a company which makes false claims to garner some interest for their failed business model. Good luck! You will need it.

[solarwindmilly]

I'd rather not ride in a car with highly flamable compresed gas on board. Gasoline is bad enough in accidents. Electric is the wave of the future and the recent advances in the batteries is encouraging. It is great to see technology advancing in the right direction. We seriously need to get on with the business of becoming energy independent. While we are doing the happy dance around the pumps with the lower prices OPEC is planning yet more production cuts and will not quit until they achieve their desired price per barrel. The record high prices this past year have done serious damage to our economy and society. WE must move forward with energy independence. We have the knowledge, we have the technology, what America lacks is a plan. Jeff Wilson has a new book out that is beyond awesome. The Manhattan Project of 2009 Energy Independence NOW. He walks you through every aspect of oil, what it is used for besides gas, our depletion of it. The worlds increased need ie 3rd world countries becoming more modernized and consuming more. He explains EVERY alternative energy source and what role they can play to replace oil. His research is backed up with hard data and even includes a time frame and proposed legislative agendas to promote our ability to use less oil

[JoeBear55]

We shouldn't be talking about batteries we should be thinking about converting our cars to run on natural gas it's cleaner and only costs about a third of regular gas (Liquid) Think of all the extra jobs it would create just from getting the infrustrcture into place. If they can do it in Australia we should be able to do it here. That would also give us the extra time we need to develop better battery technology for the future

[KillTheMessenger]

Huh? Household price for natural gas is $20/1000 cubic foot. A cubic foot of natural gas has about 1.08MJ of energy content, so to offset one gallon of gasoline (130MJ) it takes about 120 cubic feet of NG. In other words, currently the gallon of gasoline equivalent of NG sells for $2.40. That's without gas tax, of course, which you would have to pay if you use it as a transportation fuel.

So how is that cheaper? Or do you really believe they will sell the stuff at wellhead price to you?

[research]

Price of Natural gas has dropped to about 10$, which makes it very attractive for a sub 1000$ conversion of a gasoline or diesel car to also run on natural gas. They have been doing it in Europe for decades. It would be real nice not to have to go to the gas station too. As the Market varies you pick. It's a lot cleaner too.

[andresfusion]

This is where the bailout money should go to! Plug-in cars are a much better investment than wasting money on biofuels(especially corn based biofuels).

[TrooAmerican]

When was it ever a problem?
I know a guy in my hometown that converted an old pinto into an all electric car back in 1995 using a battery pack and charger in his garage he got from a forklift. The local paper did an article on him too. At that time, his total cost for the conversion was $4500.00, He'd actually driven the car around to his job and back and all over town for 2 yrs, and still has it. Not sure how much he drives it anymore.

And for that matter, back east in the princeton area, they had those funny lookin electric cars working for years back in the 80s. Ran around for hours on 1 charge across campuses, including the nuclear plant.

[norkas]

To see what is happening in with plug in autos just google and when you see the advancements you will not only get angry but whould toss the GM pres. and others out fast. We have been fooled and they will get a away with it.

Tesler has technology that allows there car to get 235 miles on one charge and goes 185mph top speed. This is a pricy auto but i am just showing one example of present day technology.

Another new Calif auto make will be coming out with a plug in they get 150 miles on one charge and they will have a hybrid in the moddle of 2009 that will get 200 per gallon.

Please google new hybrids and electric autos and study a little of 30 new companies that are here or will be hitting the market next year. You will be outraged when you see what is already developed and then understand we should be suppoting these new auto companies that already are leaving GM in the dust.

25 billion will be in the toilet for GM becaue they truly do not care about gearing up and we are being fooled by GM and the oil companies that support the gas guzzlers they have made and continue.

By supporting new American companies and letting Gm go bankurpt and being taken over by smarter people prepared to purchase new companies with great technologies and partnerships will lead us forward quickly

[KillTheMessenger]

Just because someone can build a toy demonstrator (which European universities have been doing in the 1980s) does not mean you have an industrial product with which you can make money.

Running around for hours on a charge at 20mph means you will be running around for ten minutes at 65mph on the highway. You have to scale these things to typical usage patterns and then you will see the real engineering problem. 1 gallon of gasoline contains 130MJ. That's approx. 20MJ worth of usable energy which is equivalent to 5kWh. Now take a Lithium-Ion battery which conservatively stores 0.5MJ per kg. So it takes at least 40kg of LiIon cells to replace one gallon of gasoline. But sadly these cells do not live long if they are being discharged to much more than one third to one half of their full charge. So now it takes two to three times as many cells and suddenly we are up to 80-120kg, i.e. 160-250 lbs of very expensive batteries to replace a single gallon of gasoline. And that's just the zeroth order problem that the real engineer has to deal with.

[research]

There has been a lot of progress in supercaps in the last few years. The cost has come way down.

Supercaps are a circuit technical detail, that may or may not improve price and or performance.

Large capacitors are already used in Hybrid car electronics.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/01/ultrabattery-combines-supercapacitor.html

It all depends on the cost and reliability of the SuperCaps.

If The New lithium Iron Phosphate batteries last long enough without the capacitors, why include them?

[KillTheMessenger]

You got that right. The new batteries do not get any advantage from these capacitors. The test this company has done only shows a difference because they were (ab)using the wrong batteries to have something to show for. Current NiMH batteries last 100,000 cycles under hybrid load conditions. There is absolutely no advantage from lowering the peak current density because the main stress are deep charge/discharge cycles, which capacitors can do absolutely nothing about.

[SolarPowerGuy]

"If The New lithium Iron Phosphate batteries last long enough without the capacitors, why include them?"

Batteries have a certain storage capacity, measured in watt-hours. But batteries also have significant limits on charge and discharge rates, measured in watts (or horsepower). If you accelerate firmly in the Prius, there's no avoiding having the gasoline motor switch on. If you step firmly on the brakes, you will shed some excess energy to the mechanical brake pads instead of recovering it in the regenerative braking system.

Supercapacitors have essentially no limits on how quickly you can store or release energy. Quick acceleration and braking can then be accomplished without the gasoline motor or brakes.

Of course there are tradeoffs, as you've added weight to the vehicle, plus some non-trivial electronics which add complexity. But that's the idea behind supercaps.

Several observers have suggested that where a supercap system would really shine would be in heavy vehicles which do a lot of stopping and starting, such as delivery trucks or garbage trucks.

[research]

The A123 Cells can output 120AMPs at 2.5Volts, about

300Watts for a "C" cell sized battery.

5 watt hours per battery.

5 KWH battery pack requires 1000 cells.

1000 cells output 300KW peak. about 66% gets to wheels, about

200HP.

70Kg about 160lbs

[unite4change]

I'm sorry about the US auto makers. However, if they had been providing the same energy efficient cars to America as they have been providing for the car companies aboard, they would not be in this situation. They have been denying American car owner new technolgy for years. They, like most multinational companies, think Americans are stupid, and for the part, we have been stupid.

But it's a new day, and the chickens are coming home to roost for America's big 3 auto industry. FYI, there are new America auto companies ready to step in.

[rjcrane]

If you knew what you were talking about you would know that the standards of cars sold in other countries aren't the same as they are in the US. That's why they can't sell certain cars they sell in foreign countries in the United States - these cars wouldn't pass our safety standards. Part of the problem with getting better fuel mileage is related to all of the airbags, anti-lock brakes, steel reinforcement, etc, as safety features that add weight to vehicles. These are also features or things Americans want their cars to have. Another thing is most Americans wouldn't be satisfied with the under performance of many of these smaller cars. Americans don't have a market for clean diesel either like they do in Europe. Who's fault it that?

We should all hope the car battery problem has been solved as it will be easier to get better electric cars like the Volt into production sooner.

RJ Crane, topplebush.com

[KillTheMessenger]

Most of the European models would easily pass US safety standards with a few modifications. The safety measures you mention add a lot to the cost of a vehicle but almost nothing to the weight, which is what really matters. But none of this is responsible for the real difference. US cars are being sold based on raw engine power and torque, two very poor indicators of a car's performance as a transportation tool. Yet, just like with clock speed with computers, people buy according to a "larger and more powerful is better" rule. European cars, on average, have half the engine power of their US counterparts. They have to be made slightly smaller and lighter to get meaningful acceleration and handling. In return they only use half as much fuel.

You get what you pay for. If you get a larger engine, you pay for it with fuel consumption. It's really that simple.

[KillTheMessenger]

OK... couple of problems here.

1) The hybrid battery problem is solved. See the Prius which works just fine for ten years already.

2) So they claim their batteries without buffering last only 500 cycles. Well, that means they are using the wrong batteries to begin with. There are plenty of commercial batteries out there which last tens of thousand of cycles under automotive load conditions. 3800 cycles as they claim does not even qualify a part for a hybrid application.

[SolarPowerGuy]

Maybe the use of the supercapacitor bank allows them to use batteries which would otherwise not be suitable for a hybrid car application? Maybe those batteries are cheaper than the high-cycle batteries? It could be a question of economics, not technology.

[KillTheMessenger]

"Maybe the use of the supercapacitor bank allows them to use batteries which would otherwise not be suitable for a hybrid car application?"

Nope. You still need temperature range, safety issues and cost.

"Maybe those batteries are cheaper than the high-cycle batteries?"

Unlikely, but you can find out for yourself. I don't have the time to hunt down the cost for these things by calling the sales departments of the manufacturers. And you won't be able to find reliable cost data in the internet for these things. You need to talk to someone who sells them and you will have to sweet talk them into giving you a hint of what it might cost. It's possible, even though nobody will tell you exactly what they sell them for to car manufacturers (they don't want to ruin their OEM business).

[JuniorNorman]

UNIONIZE WALMART AND HOME DEPOT!
If we pay people more we will have an upflow economy.

[KillTheMessenger]

If you educate people better they don't have to work at Walmart...

[jake106]

Bingo. It is amazing how many people don't get that.

[mater]

My trusty 2004 Venture van is almost paid off. As a person on a small fixed income. a hybrid car would have to drive itself into my driveway and hand the title to me to ever have me drive it! How are millions of people who have lost jobs, savings, healthcare and have problems paying for the car they already own and its gas, tabs, insurance, maintenance--ever going to afford something else? Why would people choose more debt for a green reason or any other? Another monthly financial burden--untested, who knows how much the insurance or trips to the car mechanic will run--it's a fool's folly and I can't afford it.

[SomaMinneapolis]

You and I can't afford hybrids but companies that use fleets of vehicles can. Companies that purchase fleets are also very fuel and maintenance cost concious.

[KillTheMessenger]

Companies will not upgrade their fleet. They will replace them because that is way cheaper.