Big Three Lobby Capitol Hill Again Today Amidst Fleeting Chances For Auto Bailout

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KEN THOMAS | November 19, 2008 03:58 PM EST | AP

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WASHINGTON — Top Senate Democrats suggested Wednesday that a bill to rescue Detroit's Big Three automakers was stalled and challenged the Bush administration to take steps to save the industry if congressional efforts falter. The White House quickly rebuffed the suggestion.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada sought to lower expectations of reaching a deal on the $25 billion proposal before Congress quits for the year.

While he told the Senate he still hoped lawmakers could agree to an auto deal in the "next day or two" of the current lame-duck session, he added: "If we can't do it here legislatively, I would hope that the secretary of Treasury would listen loud and clear because they could take this into their own hands and do what I think is appropriate from their perspective."

Responded White House press secretary Dana Perino: "There's no appetite for that." She said it was up to Congress to act.

Banking Committee Chairman Chris Dodd, D-Conn., was even more downbeat, calling the possibility of reaching agreement "remote."

"I don't see how in the next few days this is going to move forward," Dodd told reporters. Still, he added, "That does not mean that there are not opportunities." He suggested that the Federal Reserve could possibly step up to the job.

The difficulties of striking a deal on the package before a new president and a new Congress with expanded Democratic majorities take office appeared to be too great to overcome. The deadlock persisted even as the heads of General Motors, Ford and Chrysler returned for a second day to plead for relief and as their congressional backers urged colleagues not to punish them for past mistakes.

General Motors Corp. CEO Rick Wagoner told the House Financial Services Committee that collapse of the U.S. auto industry could lead to a loss of 3 million jobs within the first year and ripple throughout communities around the nation.

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In sometimes contentious testimony, Wagoner was pressed on when GM would run out of money if the loans weren't extended.

He said he couldn't say precisely, but that the company now was burning through "$5 billion each month."

Still, with the $25 billion emergency package, "We think we have a good shot to make it through this," Wagoner said. He said he anticipated that, if the package is approved, GM would qualify for about $10 billion to $12 billion of the money.

President George W. Bush and Republicans in Congress have been reluctant to use the Treasury Department's $700 billion financial bailout program to finance the loans.

The White House wants Congress to draw the $25 billion from an Energy Department program established to encourage production of fuel-efficient cars.

Perino said Wednesday the administration supports legislation to authorize just that, but will not go along with the proposal by Democratic leaders that an additional $25 billion be taken from the government's existing $700 billion Wall Street bailout fund.

"The purpose of the $700 billion was clearly intended for financial institutions, and we wanted to keep that whole," Perino said. .

If Congress quits without taking any action, "then the Congress will bear responsibility for anything that happens in the next couple of months during their long vacation," Perino said.

Congressional Republicans battled uphill to try to pick up Democratic support for the White House plan to allow auto companies to draw emergency loans from the $25 billion fuel-efficiency fund.

Democratic leaders have rejected such a course, and environmentalists don't want that money used for anything other than its intended purpose.

But the GOP approach, being crafted by Sens. Kit Bond, R-Mo., and George Voinovich, R-Ohio, would require the automakers to plow back into the fund repaid loans, interest and income from equity stakes.

The proposal, outlined in a position paper obtained by The Associated Press, is intended to satisfy Democrats concerned about raiding the fuel-efficiency loan program. Since auto makers would not be tapping those funds immediately, supporters argue, the money would be restored by the time they were needed.

During the House hearing Wednesday, Rep. Brad Sherman, D-Calif., asked the three auto chiefs seated at the witness table before him to raise their hands if they had come to Washington on commercial airliners. No hands went up. Then he asked if any planned to sell their corporate jets. Again, no hands went up.

Sherman and Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-N.Y., told the auto executives they were having a hard time justifying to their constituents bailing out companies whose chiefs fly around in expensive private jets.

Ackerman said there was "a delicious irony in seeing private luxury jets flying into Washington, D.C., and people coming off them with tin cups in their hands. ... It's almost like seeing a guy show up at the soup kitchen in high hat and tuxedo."

A Senate vote on an automotive bailout plan, which would also extend jobless benefits, could come as early as Thursday, but it clearly lacks the necessary support to advance.

___

Associated Press writers Julie Hirschfeld Davis and Sam Hananel contributed to this story.

(This version CORRECTS quote to "private luxury jets."))

WASHINGTON — Top Senate Democrats suggested Wednesday that a bill to rescue Detroit's Big Three automakers was stalled and challenged the Bush administration to take steps to save the industry i...
WASHINGTON — Top Senate Democrats suggested Wednesday that a bill to rescue Detroit's Big Three automakers was stalled and challenged the Bush administration to take steps to save the industry i...
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- Badfickle I'm a Fan of Badfickle 134 fans permalink

If you're going to pay these turkeys a million bucks a day you might as well send them on private jets cause time is money.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:37 PM on 11/19/2008
- Mikeeee I'm a Fan of Mikeeee 75 fans permalink

Get their lazy a.s.s.e.s up at sunrise with the rest of us and take a cab to airport and wait inline though the screening. They're on salary, no overtime pay required.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:45 PM on 11/19/2008
- munki I'm a Fan of munki 35 fans permalink
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ONLY if they QUALIFY for the position...
they are NOT!
If you heard today's talk...
We should not be paying million of bucks...
That is what is WRONG...

Many talked about Japan...
In Japan, EXECUTIVES gets NOT ONLY salary CUT, but maybe NO bonus during hard time...
in lieu of cutting jobs... first resort...
then goes on... if 1 do not work...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:47 PM on 11/19/2008
- munki I'm a Fan of munki 35 fans permalink
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Why should you pay turkeys a million bucks a day?
Use it to rescue the Company!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:53 PM on 11/19/2008

I hate to see yet another major US business tank since we have so little left as others have pointed out, but these are the guys who spent the last dozen or so years have convincing everyone they need to drive ridiculously huge, gas guzzling trucks (SUV's) and took the focus off sensible cars with decent mileage. This is one of my pet peeves - I just about go ballistic every time I see a little 100 pound urban princess driving a 5000 pound truck! And how did they sell this selfish brand of consumerism to American consumers? The same way the administration sold the war on terror - to "keep us safe". People throw logic out the window when safety is involved, especially the safety of their children. It's fear based marketing that created the fleet of soccer moms driving all those Navigators and Escalades, beating up the roads, making it hard to park, and making gas more expensive for all of us.

Detroit has no social conscience keft - let 'em tank!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:29 PM on 11/19/2008
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No doll, that is what the people were BUYING. Nothing got shoved down anyones throat. They DID build small cars, no one bought them.

I am not saying that mistakes were not made along the way, but do say the Americans were victims in all this is insane.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:44 PM on 11/19/2008
- Mikeeee I'm a Fan of Mikeeee 75 fans permalink

If no one was buying small cars, how did all those hondas' and toyotas get all over the roads?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:56 PM on 11/19/2008
- suemag I'm a Fan of suemag 9 fans permalink
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I agree, what a surprise! There's no reason a soccer mom has to drive some big a$$ Escalade to chauffeur her 2 kids around- it's ridiculous. Same with the McMansions that are all in foreclosure now. Like I said, our problem is GREED.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:25 PM on 11/19/2008
- Glacial I'm a Fan of Glacial 7 fans permalink

This just isn't so. Seen a Toyota Highlander, or any of the Lexus SUV offerings? They're frigging huge! Even the Nissan XTerra is a good-sized chunk of SUV. Then there's the Toyota V8 Tundra pickup, the Nissan V8 Titan, the Honda Ridgeline -- the Japanese sold A LOT of these before the crash, and all of these hulking monsters get terrible mileage. For a quick example: The smallest-engined Toyota Tundra gets 14mpg city, 17 highway. Huh.

Detroit also makes the Chevy Cobalt and Malibu, the Ford Fusion and Focus, and the Dodge Caliber and Avenger -- all excellent small cars that get over 30mpg. GM alone makes 30 cars that get over 30mpg!

This image that Detroit only makes huge SUVs while Japan only makes small light efficient cars is propagated by Toyota marketing. It's just not TRUE. Take a look at Toyota's sales they're down by just about exactly the same percentage as GM's.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:51 PM on 11/19/2008
- suemag I'm a Fan of suemag 9 fans permalink
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It's the mileage that counts

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:41 PM on 11/19/2008
- baghdadjoe I'm a Fan of baghdadjoe 37 fans permalink

GM, Ford, and Chrysler pissed away their empire. Now, GM's market cap is LESS than the Mattel toy company.

This is the result of terrible management and a terrible business plan. We must not reward failure. No taxpayer dough for the autos!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:20 PM on 11/19/2008
- munki I'm a Fan of munki 35 fans permalink
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Wait... they did not have a PLAN today...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:32 PM on 11/19/2008
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Yes they do. That one is parroting Fox news talking points.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:37 PM on 11/19/2008
- Hawka I'm a Fan of Hawka 9 fans permalink

Be prepared to suffer the reprecussions with 2.5 million possible job layoffs at this rate then...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:32 PM on 11/19/2008
- Badfickle I'm a Fan of Badfickle 134 fans permalink

Hike import tarrifs up to 20% like China has and U.S. automakers will be just fine.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:39 PM on 11/19/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

They were not good (although they are much improved now), but they lost becuase of our trade policies.. which no other countries play buy!

Japan is aprotected market as is Korea and China, Eurpoe restrict Asian imports to protect their critical aout industry,


Note we also lost the garment industry, electronics, computer, medical equipment, appliances and etc.. whats your reason for that..

its absurd free trade that no one else does!

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:33 PM on 11/19/2008
- mamala4 I'm a Fan of mamala4 58 fans permalink
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Ok don't bail them out...how many billions are we going to spend on unemployment and welfare for all the people who are going to lose their jobs? Stupidity, sheer stupidity.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:15 PM on 11/19/2008
- Hawka I'm a Fan of Hawka 9 fans permalink

How many billions have we already spent already to pay BANK CEO BONUSES!!! That's welfare of the highest value in this country you scrub.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:33 PM on 11/19/2008
- munki I'm a Fan of munki 35 fans permalink
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repeat my earlier comment...

You have a point, but the US automakers are operating as pyramid - meaning, one command down the system, while successful foreign automakers are operating as reverse pyramid = obtaining consensus of several departments heads involved in operations = to brainstorm, coordinate and work together effectively by going through the process. SYNERGY = democracy

If we bailout the same old system, we are just putting our money in a drain like pouring money in a bottomless pail. What would you suggest is the best? with all of the above being said...

I suggest... let them file Chapter 11 and those suppliers to obtain temporary SBA or whatever loan from the government until the big guys can reorganize themselves...
But not to the old school boys, executives bleeding the company of their ego, pride and greed (sorry... but they demonstrated by pampering themselves on a private jets)... Successful system uses CONSENSUS = brainstorm with each area of experts... fuel efficient, low maintenance and comfortable cars... design, manufacture, assembly safety, marketing to... whatever takes for daily operations...

KillTheMessenger = you are absolutely right... if you don't buy US cars what does it make the difference. But we need to save America and American. If so, the big guys and its executives better start working to fix the problem... Not just go to Capitol Hills and ask money without plan or answers... They are NOT QUALIFIED as EXECUTIVES or to run a company with TAXPAYERS money...

Thank you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:33 PM on 11/19/2008
- suemag I'm a Fan of suemag 9 fans permalink
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What did Chrysler do with the first bailout money they got a while back? It obviously didn't do them any good, they probably gave the execs bonuses with it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:06 PM on 11/19/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

Wrong they paid that baqck decades ago ahead of schedule and with interest. of course Japan car makers get interest free loans

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:31 PM on 11/19/2008
- nomoredead I'm a Fan of nomoredead 12 fans permalink

They should have made AIG go through this process before they gave them $150 billion or 6 times what the auto boys are asking for.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:05 PM on 11/19/2008
- wpiv926 I'm a Fan of wpiv926 24 fans permalink

Once again, the republicans fiddle while our economy burns. And they still can't seem to understand why they took such a drubbing on Nov. 4th at the polls. Amazing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:05 PM on 11/19/2008
- truelockCA I'm a Fan of truelockCA 9 fans permalink

LOL....keep beating that drum. The majority running congress are Dems. It was a drubbing mainly due to Bush and his 26% favorability factor. But please, are we going to have to listen to Bush bashing the next four years? The people have spoken. Obama has a blank check on any issue put in front of him come Jan. Let me guess....anything bad that happens in the future will be Bush's fault as well. I don't think so...when you are the boss you take both the good & the BAD.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:14 PM on 11/19/2008
- Badfickle I'm a Fan of Badfickle 134 fans permalink

I don't give a damn who gets the credit or the blame. It's the economic philosophy that we should be discussing. For the past 28 since supply side economics were installed we've seen a steady decline in wages. In order to keep the economy from tanking due to the lessening demand we've seen a steady rise in debt and the end of personal savings. Then in 2000 we saw the deregulation of the Credit Default Swaps and the stage was set for the meltdown we see today.

Obama has inherited a terrible mess. Let's hope he has the chops to get us out of it. It's not going to be a prosperous 4 years. If he's good it just wont be a terrible 4 years.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:55 PM on 11/19/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

Lets see The Repug Congres did everything Bush wanted and he never vetoed a bill of theirs... but they were just voting against BUSH and not the results?

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:59 PM on 11/19/2008
- TheOpus I'm a Fan of TheOpus 4 fans permalink

Capitalism means that if your business runs out of money, you go out of business. Whether that happens because of a poor business model, a poor product, poor business practices, or inability to adapt and change in a global marketplace, it doesnt matter. the bottom line is ... you sink or swim in this country. Let em go under. this bailout was supposed to be for buying up mortgages and in theory it almost made sense , because those pieces of paper might become assets if the housing market recovers. prolonging the existence of automakers who are burning 5 billion a month, by giving them 2 more months of operating expenses isnt going to do any good. GM is screwed regardless of whether or not they get a bailout. handing them money, even if the government calls it a loan, is a waste cause they're going to go bankrupt either way. just let it happen now, so that the country can face the pain and find a way to start the healing. same with AIG.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:02 PM on 11/19/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

Other countries dont play your brand of capitalism... They play to win for their country, not a multi national. They protect and grow their major Industries.

Japan auto MFGs get zero interest loans. Their research and development is paid for. Their home market is a protected market such that the same car sells their for twice as much. Would you by a celica if it cost twice as much? Would its quality per dollar be as good? That profit there allows them to sell here at no profit and gain market.


The MFG owns the dealership in japan

We are buying everything from China.. its not capitalsim as you know it. The Goverment gets a 50% interest in every business. You can only sell a car there thats made there. Korean is also a protected market. Eurpoe restricts asian import to a quoto.



Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:28 PM on 11/19/2008
- munki I'm a Fan of munki 35 fans permalink
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Outsourcing of technical support... what tax do we receive?
We need jobs for our own people first...
Also, our information is abroad... does that make us more vulnerable?
Is our jurisdiction protection us or??? Privacy act...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:41 PM on 11/19/2008
- TheOpus I'm a Fan of TheOpus 4 fans permalink

dude i agree ... it's not "my" brand of capitalism, thou. it's the reality in this country.
the restaurant down the street from me went out of business. it didnt have enough money to stay open. maybe it was because of the Thai restaurant that came in on the same block, serving better food. doesnt matter why. but there was no-one there to bail out that restaurant when they got their butts kicked by the competition.

also, Japan, Europe, and China can do whatever they want, i dont live there.

and i dont want my government giving my tax dollars to corporations who were flush with profits at one point, but now are about to go under. sink or swim. period. if the US government opened the floodgates to imports, thats not my problem. GM should have lobbied them not to do that, if they felt it was in their best interest.
i'll continue to run my small business, which has been making annual gains because we compete, offer quality services, dont overpay our employees, and live within our means. and i'll continue to believe in that kind of capitalism, even if my government does not. respect.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:44 PM on 11/19/2008
- munki I'm a Fan of munki 35 fans permalink
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Doesn't the Capitalism come with PERFORMANCE basis pay?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:54 PM on 11/19/2008
- Badfickle I'm a Fan of Badfickle 134 fans permalink

No place else has the screwed up healthcare system we have either.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:59 PM on 11/19/2008
- SOLERSO68 I'm a Fan of SOLERSO68 36 fans permalink
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BILLCPA spouts the standard republican line. The cost of building toyotas and hondas in JAPAN is greater( 110.00 USD) than the cost of GM employees. "Right to work"states should not be allowed to turn all of America into a japanese labor colony, even if thats what "they" want for themselves.America should not be Japans Mexico. Moreover, why should GM one of the only US companies NOT contributing to hte healthcare crisis be penalized for being responsible. I would like BillCPA to explain these things to me. (in english please, i did)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:53 PM on 11/19/2008

Dear SOLERS068,

It's called capitalism and competition. We have people in America willing to work for $48 an hour in wages and benefits who produce excellent cars.

Why should we subsidize a company that (a) builds terrible cars and (b) pays its employees $73 an hour?

And where does it end? How about the housing industry? I can make a good argument that many more people are involved in that than the auto industry. How many billions do you want to give them?

And for how long do you wish the subsidies to last? A quick perusal of their balance sheets and cash requirements will tell you that $25 billion would be a drop in the bucket.

And what is relevant about labor costs in Japan, anyway? That is a total non sequitur. They also spend $500,00 US for small apartments in Japan. So what?

You make an emotional argument, not a logical or economical one.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:16 PM on 11/19/2008
- truelockCA I'm a Fan of truelockCA 9 fans permalink

See he makes sense.....You REPUBLICAN! Maybe he is just a smart Dem?!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:34 PM on 11/19/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

The problem with Bill's argument is they dont make cars here .. they assemble cars here. Assembly is one of the smallest cost components and the less value added... 6 hours to assemble a car. Find out where the engine and electronics are made.. The design work and engineering is mostly done...

And their cars are not selling either. gee maybe when they dont have competition like back in Japan they will sell them for twice as much as here like they do in Japan.

As Toyota ever reported a profit on its U.S. sales and paid taxes? I know for decades it did not!

Its amazing.. they get from their givernments interest free loands their research is paid for, along with their employees healthcare and you dont see a problem?

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:43 PM on 11/19/2008
- munki I'm a Fan of munki 35 fans permalink
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Let's compare EXECUTIVE pays...
then you will REALLY be shocked!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:55 PM on 11/19/2008
- truelockCA I'm a Fan of truelockCA 9 fans permalink

Bill makes the most sense on this thread. And why is it that people feel that calling someone "republican" is paramount to calling them "stupid".

When you don;t agree with an argument you thorw out......"republican". You use it like some sort of trump card.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:30 PM on 11/19/2008
- munki I'm a Fan of munki 35 fans permalink
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Japanese cars - many are made in the U.S.
Plants in Tennessee, Georgia...Alabama... why south? Southern hospitality...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:42 PM on 11/19/2008

NO BAIL OUT!!!!!!!!

START FROM SCRATCH LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE HAS TOO!!!!

FOCUS ONLY ON GREEN CARS.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:53 PM on 11/19/2008
- munki I'm a Fan of munki 35 fans permalink
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YES! Way to go!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:43 PM on 11/19/2008
- smarternu I'm a Fan of smarternu 6 fans permalink

Here's a great idea! Why don't the big 3 borrow money from their friends at Exxon/Mobil. Exxon had record profits time and time again. The auto and oil companies have been in cahoots with each other for decades and both industries have been yanking the American consumers/tax payer's chains mercilessly, so we're not so open to the idea. Besides Exxon has PLENTY of money - 25 Billion is a drop in the bucket for them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:52 PM on 11/19/2008
- BuckeyeGal I'm a Fan of BuckeyeGal 4 fans permalink
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You surely don't expect them to give up 2.5 quarters worth of profits, do you?! They keep dragging out the Valdez settlement. Pretty soon all the people they owe will be deceased.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:10 PM on 11/19/2008

Lets take a generalist approach. What do we make or offer in the this country that is wanted by the rest of the world, and we produce arguably better than the rest of the world? It's a key question in a global economy. Initial thoughts on a list that is obviously incomplete and lacking detail.

-Science and Engineering. But our advantage over the rest of the world is closing...fast.

-Health Care and Medicine. But we must keep the costs reasonable and rely upon fluctuating donations (linked to our economy) from our generous citizens.

-Food. But can we help maintain surplus food supplies in a world of global warming? (Higher likelihood of droughts and heat waves.) Time will tell.

-Yes...before I forget. Weapons. Something we continue excel at producing and exporting.

Without the auto assembly plants or manufacturing infrastructure, who is going to built anything for domestic use in this country? Well, we will always have defense contractors.

I am no fan of Detroit; they have offered too many hulking guzzlers of poor dependability and they have left small cars as an afterthought. But I shudder to think of the potential consequences if we allow a significant hunk of our (prohibitively expensive and time consuming to replace) manufacturing infrastructure to go idle. If we want to maintain any sort of independence, don't we need the ability to built something big and in bulk? If not, what am I missing?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:45 PM on 11/19/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

lOOK AT YOUR LIST: We now import more high tech than we export. We import more food than we export. Detroit was bad... but we also lost the electronics , garment, appliance, Medical equipment, computer and etc markets.. Are we bad at everything or is the rest of the word playing differently?

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:49 PM on 11/19/2008
- booboo111 I'm a Fan of booboo111 82 fans permalink
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No one is seeing the big picture here. The big three is just a symptom of a country, that is economically MELTING DOWN. I've never been an alarmist before, but this is beyond even Obama's control. BE AFRAID...........BE VERY AFRAID.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:30 PM on 11/19/2008

This problem is not a dichotomy, nor is it recent in the making.

First and foremost, we have managers who have designed poorly and invested massively in production that has been rejected by the American populace.

Second. we have a workforce that costs the "Detroit 3" $73 per hour per person to build a car in America, versus a cost of $48 per hour to build Toyotas and Hondas in America.

There has to be a complete recasting of both management and labor. Management failure and labor inefficiency must no longer be subsidized by the American taxpayer. Both must be radically altered if any type of aid is to be forthcoming.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:43 PM on 11/19/2008
- truelockCA I'm a Fan of truelockCA 9 fans permalink

Well said. It isn't just a management issue or just a big labor issue....it's an outdated business model issue that need updating. But to truly do it you need new leaders and the ability to bypass the UAW to really make any difference.

And the whole logic of being able to raise a family on lower wages is already happening....by Toyota here in the USA down South in right-to-work states!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:46 PM on 11/19/2008
- SOLERSO68 I'm a Fan of SOLERSO68 36 fans permalink
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explain "the whole logic" of raising a family on lower wages? lets see.
you + lesspay = corporate bonuses+ executive compensation= your family is lving ina s**t hole with rotten teeth but your corporate master are happy so your job is safe Wow! brilliant. did it take david hume to invent that "logic" and, what happened to your spine.
BTW what makes you think anyone but a beatdown southern jeb would accept such a master slave relationship?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:06 PM on 11/19/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

The starting wage of UAW worker is $12 per hour , the average is 14-17 per hour. Assembly workers are not making 73 per hour on average ( or 150K per year). Their wokers are older and more of the inputs are made in the U.S, and not outside of the U.S. where the healthcare is paid for by the government (and often in low wage countries) as is Research and the government provides interest free loans as in japna Inc. . Adjust for the impact of the trade deficits. Thats a cost. Most of the newer Foriegn assembly plants have been given tax exceptions and are not in what are now highly dense areas/high cost areas but in lower wage areas of the south.

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:57 PM on 11/19/2008
- truelockCA I'm a Fan of truelockCA 9 fans permalink

Viper:
Its all the costs added together equaling $73. One hour of labor to GM costs $73. If the true average wage at GM is $15 then GM is totally screwed. This discussion is over. There is NO hope. If there are that many added costs due to past employees/benefits/Job Bank agreements etc.... Then we are looking at what we will be dealing with in Social Security in a few years.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:07 PM on 11/19/2008
- truelockCA I'm a Fan of truelockCA 9 fans permalink

Alot of people mention Health Care Costs as an issue. Viper quoted US is 19% of GDP vs 9% in Germany. Difference is the Lawyers.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:39 PM on 11/19/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

No its not the lawyers. I'm in healthcare.. Most middle men mke about 3%. Wall mart gets rid of the middleman.. We have Insurance companies that are the middleman and treat no one. They take between 30-50% of every healthcare dollar.


Then there are the drug companies.. The price of drugs are controlled every where in the world. We pay 5 times as much as the rest of the world does for the same drug made in the same plant. Its not a free market when you are the only guys playing that way. So we over pay for drugs and effectivel subsudize the healthcare of our competitors. We pay too mch for drugs and they get to pay too little,.

The solution is easy. it does not cost America any more money. Get rid of the middleman just like wall mart.. thats capitalsim when they do it... and set the
price fof the drugs like every one else does. A single payer system and you covereveryone at less cost. Or the rest of the world has been wrong for the last 25 years.

.Regards..

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:10 PM on 11/19/2008
- munki I'm a Fan of munki 35 fans permalink
photo

I lived in Japan for many years...
I LOVED IT!
System is amazing...
not perfect... but YES... with healthcare and all other expenses...
they can still work things out...

Because it is all about TEAMWORK...
Not "Executives Show Down"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:50 PM on 11/19/2008

They should file chapter 13 just like the airline industry did. You'll see them making cars not just affordable but economical.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:32 PM on 11/19/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 305 fans permalink

Gesh... Buying a$300 dollar ticket from a bankrupt airline is not like buying a 30K car which is a long term signficant deal with warranty and part issues that requires a lona . Would you loan money on the proudct of abankrupt company for 5 years.. Do people borrow money for an airplane ticket?

They dont need creditor protection.. they need massive cash inflo since nothing is selling, not even toyotas. Bankruptcy does not get you cash. Their suppliers are in worst shape.

Regards.
.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:38 PM on 11/19/2008
- iambusto I'm a Fan of iambusto 5 fans permalink

let the govt. use some of the 25$ billion requested for creating a vehicle insurance fund. but if the govt. doesnt use this time to remove the UAW contracts, it wont ever get done.

thats the key to become competitve with toyota. the cost structure of big 3 is unsustainable.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:48 PM on 11/19/2008
- onalimb I'm a Fan of onalimb 5 fans permalink

So we should just give them billions of dollars with no real future plan? Just to keep them afloat with the same failed management? Seems shortsighted. We need something that will act systemically not a band-aid. The big 3 have yet to show us a plan - show us a vision that will give us hope. Get us out of this constant whirlpool of fear that is sucking us down the drain. We have some great minds in this country it is time for us to tap them and find an intelligent way out of this mess. We should not rely on these CEOs to handle this – they are incapable of thinking past their personal greed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:34 PM on 11/19/2008
- jeg I'm a Fan of jeg 17 fans permalink

They should file for personal bankruptcy? I doubt it.

More seriously, you can only get approval for chapter 11 (reorganization) if you have a reasonable expectation of being able to continue business. The auto industry won't continue business until the economy improves, and GM going into chapter 11 will have the opposite effect.

NO ONE is selling cars right now. That includes Toyota. No credit equals no car sales. No consumer confidence equals no car sales. And a car company that might not be around long enough to honor the warranty equals no car sales.

At this rate, I predict China will buy Chrysler, Ford will fold, and GM will basically close half their companies, resulting in a doubling of unemployment in this country, and severely deepening the recession in Europe (Opel, Vauxhall, Saab are all part of GM).

Meanwhile, the US will lose the bulk of it's manufacturing prowess, leaving us unable to start building more efficient cars, rebuilding the grid, getting rid of oil consumption... instead, we'll be buying cheap imports from China for the next 40 years.

Largely because Congress couldn't be bothered to throw 1/10th of the money they've been papering Wall Street with at the problem.

Well done all!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:54 PM on 11/19/2008

For 30 years the writing was on the walls, the car makers should have had a line-up of fuel efficient cars. I have little sympathy for the position they were in when gas went up to $4 and everyone stopped buying SUVs. But labor concessions were made, the VEBA thing will be in effect in 2010, and new product will be available by 2010. The car companies were going to muddle through until 2010. But then the credit crisis hit and all the ensuing problems. The car companies need the loan to get them through until 2010. If these companies file chapter 11, the Midwest will have a depression like the '30s. Doesn't anyone have any compassion for that? We're talking about 4% of the bank bailout. The government is going to spend that money anyways on banks, who already have shown that they are not using the money as intended. Furthermore, studies have shown that the lost tax revenue, the increased unemployment benefits and all the other associated costs will far exceed $25 billion.
The hypocrisy of the southern senators is beyond belief. How much taxpayer money have they spent on incentives to lure the foreign car makers into their states?
The car companies need to restructure. Do we want to do it in an orderly fashion by providing a loan with strings (taxpayer money that is already committed to spend)? Or do we want a chaotic, painful mess that will come with filing chapter 11?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:31 PM on 11/19/2008
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