Huckabee: Gays Haven't Crossed Civil Rights Violence Threshold

Former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee was on The View Tuesday talking about same-sex marriage and declaring that gay rights are not civil rights because gays have not had violence inflicted upon them like Blacks have.

HuckabeeSaid: "People who are homosexuals should have every right in terms of their civil rights, to be employed, to do anything they want. But that's not really the issue. I know you talked about it and I think you got into it a little bit early on. But when we're talking about a redefinition of an institution, that's different than individual civil rights. We're never going to convince each other...But here is the difference. Bull Connor was hosing people down in the streets of Alabama. John Lewis got his skull cracked on the Selma bridge."

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[Gnrshrtd]

So it doesn't matter until someone gets hurt?

[KUjHwk]

Anyone not aware of the violence that's been inflicted upon sexual minorities for centuries, hasn't been paying attention.

Wake the f#@k up!

[FJRinLA]

All he is saying is that you can't (or at least you shouldn't) be comparing the violence directed toward people historically because of their sexual orientation to the violence of the Holocaust or that of the thousands of Blacks lynched annually from 1877-1917 in the South or the 100+ million Africans at the bottom of the Atlantic as a result of the slave trade in general.

Are there similarities, yes, but they so pale in comparison to the differences that it's a quite inappropriate analogy to keep advancing.

[QuietNetworker]

I see this as a strawperson.

The "comparison" and "analogy" is that marginalized people
are marginalized. That vi0lence is perpetrated by the powerful.

That is a DIRECT analogy. The use of a MORE patently animal
example is to show the extent...

...further, the use of the civil rights moment for people of colour
is to show how CURRENT these problems are.

This is not something we've dealt with and "won't happen today"

The analogy is fair, appropriate, and 'not' about numbers as you
present.

Cheers,

Paulie Sabol

[Gnrshrtd]

Rev. Huckabee, Have a chat with Judy Shepard.

[JustSayMaybe]

The problem here is the ability to blur the term "institution" of marriage to cover both the legal licenses (relevant) and religious ceremony (irrelevant). Marriage IS a civil right, so by his own admission, should be extended to gays and lesbians. But apparently, we are such a barbaric nation that there is a "violence threshold" to earn full equality... that's a new one. Did women get attacked and lynched in order to obtain the vote? I agree that the struggle is not the SAME struggle as the civil rights movement, but it is the same principle of separate being inherently unequal. I also can't help but wonder how gays being able to have the same legal benefits and recognition as straight couples could possibly have an impact on anyone outside the immediate circle. Seriously, I am all ears for the countless harrowing tales of strapping young men dressed as the Village People breaking into suburban homes to replace all your CDs with Cher tapes. Considering how long gay marriage was permitted in California, I'm sure it's quite an epidemic.

[KevinVT]

I haven't heard one person EVER say that gay people's fight for equal rights, including equal marriage, is EXACTLY THE SAME as the black Civil Rights Movement. Not one. Ever. Of course it's not "the same." But there are many similarities, which is why from the very beginning gay people looked to the Civil Rights movement's successes for inspiration. The arguments used against mixed-race marriage (not the situation, but the arguments used by the opposition), were exactly the same. The opposition in that case was often from fundamentalist preachers, like Jerry Falwell. The courts upheld mixed race marriage against the will of the majority of the people. Those similarities are demonstrable. They don't mean the experience of a mixed race marriage is exactly the same as that of a same sex marriage, and nobody makes that claim.

As a white male raised in the racist South in the 60s, the only reason I "got" what racism is about is that I'm gay. That's just my own personal story; I can't expect everyone to be able to make the same empathetic leap. I still believe it is hardest for straight white males, who have all the privilege and never experience the lower end of a power imbalance, to "get" oppression. Women, people of color, and LGBT should have it easier, since they experience at least one form of it (some several). But some people, unfortunately, enjoy wielding that power over others. Racist white gays, for example. Or homophobic women.

[harriettubman]

I know none of the gay rights folks will agree with him but I do. The plight of gay marriage and civil rights don't go hand in hand and another analogy must be found to compare it to.

This topic has become the new abortion debate. It will never end as long as the word "marriage" is attached to it. Whether you get angry with me or not, it's the truth. I'm hearing a lot of people saying they don't even want to discuss it anymore, especially after some of the violence this week at churches.

[SteveDenver]

Huckabees argument and facts match the rest of christian-right crap.

Huckabee is not interested in facts, he just spouts bullsh!t to see if it sticks.

"Violence Threshold" -- when did he make up that stupid line?

Republicans continue to sound idiotic and unbelievable.

[Smith808]

The violence aimed at gays and lesbians takes on such a personal, visceral rage. It is one thing to realize that perfect strangers can hate you, but it's another to know they can feel justified enough to kill you. You just never know when something like this can happen...walking out of a gay bar, being attacked in your home, being seen holding hands with your partner...

[harriettubman]

Where is this violence because I've traveled a lot and haven't read about it or seen it on the news? There's a gay bar where I live and I've never heard of any violence. It depends on where you live and what fools exist in that area. I've seen a lot of fools in my day.

[KevinVT]

Yes, you don't see it because it's often not reported. We still don't have reliable hate crimes reporting in this country because people like Huckabee have fought to exclude sexual orientation from hate crimes laws.

Here are SOME of the people who have lost their lives because of who they were:
http://www.gayamericanheroes.info/heroes.html

[WilliamP]

Huckabee is a frigging idiot. The Supreme Court has recognized marriage as a fundamental right under the constitution in rejecting a ban on interracial marriage in the case of Loving v. Virginia. In that case, people of a given race were not entirely denied the right to marry, but only the right to marry a person of a certain type- another race. Gay marriage bans are similar because they deny the right to marry a person of a certain type- the same gender. The only difference between gay marriage bans and the law struck down in Loving v. VA is that they focus on gender, not race.

The Huckster can't seem to explain why preserving he integrity of the word "marriage" takes priority to giving people their rights under the constitution. Brining up racial violence is just a non sequiter; being part of a group that has suffered violence is not a prerequisite for recieving legal rights. It does seem, however, that knowing nothing about consitutional rights is a prerequisite for running for president on the Republican ticket.

[QuietNetworker]

Another idea is the protected class status given to people
with disabilities.

This is a group, a group who still have right infringements,
however, one that no one would think of as needing or
requiring a "vi0lence" threshold to meet.

It's an outrageous idea.

Cheers,

Paulie Sabol

[Ides]

Matthew who...?

[MechaMike]

Even if the CA Supreme Court upholds Prop 8...

Californians can put up another Prop to repeal Prop 8 during the next election.

So gays and their straight allies in CA better be getting signatures, raising funds, creating organizations, and educating and reaching out to the public so that they can get a winning vote next time.

Its up to the grassroots and the netroots.

Peaceful protests, vigils, and boycotts should continue until we all have equal rights in every state.

[Nikola Tesla]

Civil rights can only be redressed in the courts.

The fact that minorities are discriminated against means relief will NEVER come from a ballot box.

[QuietNetworker]

I'm also interesting in why is "peace" and "peaceful"
protest such a holy grail?

Where are the Bill Ayers of today?

Cheers,

Paulie Sabol

[AudsMom]

Apparently you have to have your $$ beaten by a high pressure fire hose to have your full rights as a citizen and to not be discriminated against.

Prop 8 passing was disgusting. I am glad the high court in California will take up the filings against the proposition. The ban on gay marriage was overturned once, it can be done again. Proponents of gay marriage will keep fighting as well they should.

An outcome from the Civil Rights movement should have been that the violence that our US Citizens went through was unnecessary and should never have happened. For the violence that happened during that time to be used as some sort of threshold for future civil rights type movements is ridiculous! So message from Huckabee, If you don't have your a$$ beaten, it's irrelevant.

Is there really a wonder why the Repulican party is so out of touch with America??

[harriettubman]

If the Supreme Court goes against the will of the people of CA, they just as well throw out the judicial system as we know it.

[LauraD]

I said this to someone else, but it bears repeating when people are this thickheaded.

In the early 1900s, if it were put to a vote, emancipation would have been overturned. Would you claim that the will of the people would override the freedom of blacks because of popular opinion?

Of course not. So your argument is garbage, and now you know it.

[KUjHwk]

Excellent point LauraD.

If Harriet knew anything about the judicial system, she'd know that the system of separation of powers (particularly the judicial system) was set up in the wisdom of the Founding Fathers to guard against the tyranny of the ma.jority.

They recognized that sometimes popular opinion will be such as to vi.olate the ri.ghts of a min.ority group, and thus, must be protected by the jud.icial arm of government (e.g., Bro.wn v. Board, Lov.ing v. Virgi.nia, etc.).

In this country, the ideo.logy of "ma.jority rules" in all situations, is a myth, as it should be.

[firewmn]

** Two Words on your violence statement Mr. Huckabee..

Matthew Sheppard...

[WendyInCA]

Exactly - thank you firewmn!

[Smith808]

Firewmn,
Can I add to your list of brutal murders?

BRANDON TEENA, GWEN ARAUJO, SCOTT AMEDURE, HARVEY MILK, TERRY KNUDSEN, LES BENSCOTER, REBECCA WRIGHT & CLAUDIA BRENNER, CHARLIE HOWARD, JAMES ZAPPALORTI, JULIO RIVERA, PAUL BROUSSARD, ROBERT HILLSBOROUGH, ROXANNE ELLIS & MICHELLE ABDILL, Pfc BARRY WINCHELL, GARY MATSON & WINFIELD MOWDER, STEEN FENRICH, ARTHUR J.R. WARREN, DANNY OVERSTREET, FRED MARTINEZ, SAKIA GUNN, RICHIE PHILLIPS, STEVEN PARRISH, MOSES "Teish" CANNON, TONY RANDOLPH HUNTER, SEAN WILLIAM KENNEDY, LAWRENCE KING, ROBERTO DUNCANSON, MICHAEL SANDY, JASON GAGE, DANIEL FEDDY, NIREAH JOHNSON & BRANDIE COLEMAN, the 32 burned alive @ the Upstairs Lounge in New Orleans, etc...

[deadelephant2]

It's astonishing that idiots like Hickabee feel that suffering qualifies by degrees only, as if any one group, ethnicity, or subset has a corner on it because of whatever level of severity they may have endured. He's right that we're never going to convince each other: he's about the same age I am. But the NEXT generation has shown much more tolerance overall, I think, which is encouraging. Although I believe strongly in God (a choice, and ultimately everything comes down to volition alone), I left the church years ago after being raised in a Christian family because I felt it did not speak to me at all. I haven't missed it for one minute. Hickabee spins a clever, faux-tolerant argument; the bottom line is that he cannot see past his own religious brainwashing. He will actually pretend to love gay people, (they all do...), but civil rights will NEVER come with a polite offer from anyone like this. They must be taken.

[slaxx]

good post.

[jdmba]

Wow. This is the first time, as a Black person, that the GOP has so blatantly pandered to me!

Is this what it's been like to everyone else all along?

[SteveDenver]

Not really. The GOP are using divisive language against gays and they're pandering to Blacks.

Republicans are feeding the idea that the fight for Black civil rights and the fight for Gay civil rights are the same in the minds of gays. OF COURSE THEY'RE NOT THE SAME, but the principle is the same.

Gays and lesbians are people with rights and there are people opposed to homosexuality. It's not just marriage, it's not just schoolteachers, it's not about adoption. It's clear and undiluted bias.

[MechaMike]

Contact The View and let them know that gays were persecuted during the Inquisition (killed, burned), Colonial America (castrated), Nazi Germany (slaughtered), Psychiatry when being gay was thought to be disorder (electro-shock therapy, lobotomy), assassination of Harvey Milk, stonewall rights, hate crimes (Matthew Shepherd, Lawrence King), jailed and imprisoned in many Middle Eastern and African countries, etc.

Gay sex was illegal in American until recently.

You can google images and see pictures of gay teenagers hanging dead from nooses in Iran.

http://abc.go.com/site/contactus.html

Its up to us to fight the smears, lies, and propaganda. We can't wait for someone to do it for us.

[PuddinPie]

How does marriage in the US solve any of this, especially in the Middle East and Africa?

[jdmba]

That's what I was thinking. I voted against Prop 8 because I think it was dumb and unnecessary, but if we're talking violence and persecution, then marriage isn't the answer.

[heronimous]

that's not the point.. huckabee is saying gay people don't have the same rights to things as black people because they haven't ahd the same violence directed against them.. as mechamike shows to be false..

[davidandgolliath]

SteveDenver, Mecha and others, I have some advice for gay rights activists; If you want to further your cause in advocating for gay marriage, you should begin by changing your strategy. Using the civil rights principle as a template for your cause is a big mistake. Here's why. In the black community civil rights is tied to the black churches. The fight for justice and equality for Blacks is seen as doing God's work among the black community. Homosexuality on the other hand is seen as grave and unnatural act to blacks which they cannot associate with Christianity much less the civil rights movement. If you want to win the sympathy of blacks and perhaps other minorities, you 'll need to charter your own course. The more you associate your cause with civil rights the more you will alienate blacks. If you continue to do so, they and even other ethnic groups are going to begin to believe that you are diminishing their struggle. Some may even go so fas as to believe you are villifying their struggle by your comparing a lifestyle that they consider disordered to the civil rights innitiatives which in their perspective is considered noble. Therefore if you want o advance your cause, you have to come up with a strategy that does not saddle on the civil rights struggle.