Dems delay auto bailout vote, seek plan from Big 3

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JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS | November 20, 2008 11:40 PM EST | AP

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House Speaker Nancy Pelosi of Calif., right, accompanied by Senate Majority Harry Reid of Nev. takes part in a news conference on the auto industry bailout, with fellow congressional leaders, Thursday, Nov. 20, 2008, on Capitol Hill in Washington. (AP Photo/Gerald Herbert)

WASHINGTON — The $25 billion rescue plan for the auto industry, desperately sought by Detroit's beleaguered Big Three, collapsed Thursday as Congress drew the line at one more bailout and Democrats said they wouldn't even consider it until the companies produced a convincing plan for rebuilding their once-mighty industry.

The demise of the rescue _ at least for now _ left uncertain the fate of General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, and sent Wall Street spiraling to its lowest level in years. The Dow Jones industrials dropped 445 points, the second straight plunge of more than 400, and hit the lowest point in nearly six years.

The carmakers have been clobbered by lackluster sales and choked credit, and are battling to stay afloat through year's end. Failure of one or more of the Big Three would be a severe further blow to the floundering economy _ and to many Americans' view of the nation's industrial strength _ and throw a million or more additional workers off the job.

Just Thursday, the government reported that laid-off workers' new claims for jobless aid had reached a 16-year high and the number of Americans searching for work had soared past 10 million. Congress approved a measure to extend jobless benefits through the holidays, and the White House said President George W. Bush would quickly sign it.

But Democratic leaders scrapped votes on the auto rescue, postponing until next month a politically tricky decision on whether to approve yet another unpopular bailout at a time of economic peril, or risk being blamed for the implosion of an industry that employs millions and has broad reach into all aspects of the U.S. economy.

"Until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money," Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said at a hastily called news conference in the Capitol.

GM, Ford and Chrysler quickly issued statements promising to submit the blueprint the Democrats demanded.

Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said Congress might return to work in early December for a vote on aid to the carmakers _ but only if they show Congress they could use the funds to transform their struggling industry into a viable one.

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For now, however, the Democrats said the aid plan lacked the support to pass Congress and be signed by Bush.

Bush and congressional Republicans had balked at Democrats' suggestion to draw emergency auto industry loans from the $700 billion Wall Street rescue fund. And most Democrats were unwilling to go along with a separate, bipartisan effort backed by the White House to temporarily divert an existing program to help carmakers produce vehicles that burn less gasoline to cover the companies immediate financial needs.

But with GM warning it could go under before year's end, Democratic leaders were unwilling to close up shop for the year and appear to turn a deaf ear to the industry. They called for a Big Three viability plan by Dec. 2, scheduled hearings that week on the report, and said a vote on a bailout could come the week of Dec. 8.

"Yes, we're kicking the can down the road, because that will give us the opportunity to do something positive," Reid said. "But that will only happen if they get their act together."

The White House criticized the delay, saying the plan to let the automakers tap the fuel-efficiency loans for their short-term cash needs should be considered.

"If there are lawmakers who want to help the automakers, and they have a path to do so, why are they going to kick the can down the road?" said Dana Perino, the White House press secretary.

The chief executives of the Big Three automakers appealed personally to lawmakers for the loans this week, saying their problem was the economic meltdown that has walloped their industry _ not that they were manufacturing unappealing cars.

But whatever support they found sagged when it became known that each of them had flown into Washington aboard multimillion-dollar corporate jets. Reid observed that was "difficult to explain" to taxpayers in his hometown of Searchlight, Nev.

Pelosi said she had little patience left for excuses from the carmakers on why they haven't turned their businesses around.

Beyond the auto industry, lawmakers said the public has little appetite for anything else that smacks of a bailout, following the backlash against the $700 billion financial rescue.

"There is a sense that we did not do a good enough job of safeguarding the use of those funds, or providing prevention against abuse. And you could not get, I believe, through either house of Congress today what some people might think was a repeat. That's why we need to take time," said Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass.

Even if lawmakers return to vote, they are likely to insist on numerous conditions on any loans. Democrats and Republicans alike want the government to get a chance to share in future profits by the auto companies, require them to limit executives' pay packages and prohibit use of the funds for lobbying or paying shareholders dividends.

In scrapping plans for a vote this week, the Democratic leaders sidetracked a bipartisan agreement to temporarily divert the fuel-efficiency funds to cover the auto companies' operations.

Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., said that plan had a "reasonable chance" of passing, and that the leaders' decision to delay it was "risky and unnecessary."

"We need speed. This is a very, very important moment," Levin said.

Indeed, the Democratic Congress _ having just expanded its majorities in this month's elections _ was under immense pressure to show it could govern in a difficult situation.

"I can't imagine a scenario where they wouldn't come back, unless the answer is that they just don't care. And if that's the case, then the American people ought to know that," Perino said.

The leaders of the Big Three automakers have painted a grim picture of their financial position. They burned through nearly $18 billion in cash reserves during the last quarter _ about $7 billion at GM, almost $8 billion at Ford and $3 billion at Chrysler. GM and Chrysler have said they could collapse in weeks.

The stakes are high. The Detroit automakers employ nearly a quarter-million workers, and more than 730,000 other workers produce materials and parts that go into cars. About 1 million more people work in dealerships nationwide. If just one of the automakers declared bankruptcy, some estimates put U.S. job losses next year as high as 2.5 million.

___

Associated Press writers Ken Thomas, David Espo, Andrew Taylor and Jennifer Loven contributed to this report.

WASHINGTON — The $25 billion rescue plan for the auto industry, desperately sought by Detroit's beleaguered Big Three, collapsed Thursday as Congress drew the line at one more bailout and Democr...
WASHINGTON — The $25 billion rescue plan for the auto industry, desperately sought by Detroit's beleaguered Big Three, collapsed Thursday as Congress drew the line at one more bailout and Democr...
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- munki I'm a Fan of munki 34 fans permalink
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Total reorganization as they are in Chapter 11.
It must include...

Business Plan that is transparen­t... (allow monitoring but no same audit and cpa firm are the same)
Cash flow analysis..­. credit analysis..­.

Get rid of executive perks, fat checks, a reasonable bonus due 12 months after the turn around, be accountabl­e... performance basis... pay must be limited... $16million can pay how many brains? Why waste on one executive caused the meltdown..­. sorry... I used to do a lot of audits

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:51 AM on 11/21/2008
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No plan...fly­ing in on private jets. Dugh people. The CEOs aren't trying to get the $$ because they DON'T WANT THE $$..

The want to declare bankruptcy so they can bust the unions and restructure organically. They are being forced to go to Washington by the unions and are doing it strictly for PR so they can "appear" to be interested in saving jobs. What they are in business for isn't to create or save jobs or to make cars or to even just make their oil buddies happy. They are in business to make $$ and only $$. They don't care if they convert their companis into manufacturing coffee makers if it means they can make more $$. They want to go into bankruptcy and frankly, maybe that's the best thing for the economy if we can somehow be ensure that they stay in the car-making business and do it better and more efficiently, but make no mistake--these guys don't want the bailout.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:21 AM on 11/21/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 265 fans permalink

They dont want bankruptcy. It will end all sales and then their will not be enough money in China. The repugs want bankruptcy to break the Unions as do some southern Democrats since they think it means more toyota assembly plants in the south. Of course they dont understand thats all that is done... assembly..­. the lowest value added part of production. The race to the bottom.

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:31 AM on 11/21/2008
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I swear...I need a heavy spell/grammer check on my posts. Pardon me. I'm done with Internet Explorer and on to Firefox.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:31 AM on 11/21/2008
- IAB I'm a Fan of IAB permalink

IE sucks, doesn't it?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:49 AM on 11/21/2008
- janeInCA I'm a Fan of janeInCA 4 fans permalink
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Hope you're right. Then put those jets on ebay to make more $$.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:42 AM on 11/21/2008

I agree completely. I posted a similar comment yesterday. These guys aren't in DC to get money. They truly want to declare bankruptcy and dump the unions. It's just unfortunate that in doing so, the only people hurting will be the thousands of workers, suppliers, small companies, foreclosures and entire communities that will be wiped out by the failure. And the Big Three execs will fly off in their big jets and park their billions in off shore accounts.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:44 AM on 11/21/2008
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Teslas are on the road, Volts are not.

Why give $25 Billion to incompetent companies?

Tesla has the land for the $60,000 sedan factories and all the necessary permits and $11 Million from the State.

With economies of scale, the sedan can be priced @$40,000.

Silicon Valley knows how to make $$$.

Detroit knows how to lose it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:18 AM on 11/21/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 265 fans permalink

And what is tesla's track record? Warranty work. Consummer report... When it breaks down in montana?


Its a nice Niche product. Whose techology is already out dated and will face much better competition in the next 24 months, before their plant is even built. To get 200 MPGhrg range they have to 2-3 times the battery cost as a gas assisted charging system (and battery weight).. which can get 400 miles/battery 40 miles alone). That means $30-50k in batteries.­.. replace in 5 to ten years...

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:37 AM on 11/21/2008
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Who drives 400 miles a day?

Your products suck, that's why you need $25 BILLION!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:49 AM on 11/21/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 265 fans permalink

Silocon valley is filled with dead startups.. billions were lost there. Nothing made there.


Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:39 AM on 11/21/2008
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Google, Apple . . . yeah we're hurting so bad.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:04 AM on 11/21/2008
- IAB I'm a Fan of IAB permalink

Who is going to spend 40K?
Not too many.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:50 AM on 11/21/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 265 fans permalink

Detroit with 1/3 of the battery requirement, will not be able to break even at 40K price with even 200K units sold per year.

Toyota did not make any money on Prius sales here for years!

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:53 AM on 11/21/2008
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Tesla isn't asking the taxpayer for $25 BILLION.

You are delusional.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:06 AM on 11/21/2008
- Twinkie I'm a Fan of Twinkie 3 fans permalink

What I see here are a lot of people who've never seen the inside of a factory willing to sacrifice the lives of 4 million Americans on the altar of some bogus ideology. Seems the Republicans don't have a monopoly on cold hearted ignorance.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:15 AM on 11/21/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 265 fans permalink

Correct. They want to continue down the same Repug path of killing MFG in the States. That is part of the race to the bottom. If thier job is being sent to china or india .. thats a problem since they are asked to compete with dollar a day labor.. but when a blue collar worker is expected to compete with protected foreign car MFGs... thats OK.

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:43 AM on 11/21/2008
- IAB I'm a Fan of IAB permalink

There is nothing ignorant about rewarding CEOs who have companies that are not up to speed on modern technologies, who were behind the eight ball on the decline in people wanting bloated, lumbering, dangerous SUVs hogging the highways, and who are at the mercy of unions wanting them to shell out 70/hr...ju­st INSANE!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:52 AM on 11/21/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 265 fans permalink

The 70 per hour
is the wieghted cost per car of all effort including engineering and etc. it also includes all employee benefits and is thus a fully loaded cost. By the way your local auto dealer charges 65 per hour for repairs..

Top union wage is around 52k per year. And remember the average age of a Detroit worker is in the 50s. Starting rate is 12 bucks per hour. Most assembly wages are between 14-17 per hour .

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:01 AM on 11/21/2008
- PatsyT I'm a Fan of PatsyT 102 fans permalink
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Is anyone thinking about the Oil Companies ??
Why aren't they helping?
They seem to be hiding in all this turmoil?
Haven't they had recorded record profits because the big three kept up the guzzler product line?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:03 AM on 11/21/2008
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The oil companies aren't helping because they don't want the bailout either!

They want the benefits of bankruptcy so they can break the unions and reorganize and so they don't have to answer to anyone as to what and how they do things, if they take private jets, expensive retreats, or platinum parachuttes. These guys are repubs and don't want the goverment telling them a darn then.

Besides oil companies are way ahead of the game--they are going to stay filthy rich because they are now converting to "energy" companies and diversifying their offerings by developing alternative and green energy. They are on pace to stay strong and successful. Some old oil PEOPLE will go down, but not the industry. They will just morph into something else.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:27 AM on 11/21/2008
- IAB I'm a Fan of IAB permalink

The oil companies had the auto companies by the b--s as have the unions, and the CEOs remained clueless about what cars would sell versus churning out antiquated behemoths.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:53 AM on 11/21/2008
- janeInCA I'm a Fan of janeInCA 4 fans permalink
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Here is a simple plan, they can turn in and get that $25B loan from energy bill quickly:

1) 2009, all new cars must be hybrid,
2) 2010, all new cars will be hybrid plug-in and hybrid conversion kits will be sold for used cars,
3) 2011, all new cars will be operated by either electricity or natural gas.

YES WE CAN

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:58 AM on 11/21/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 265 fans permalink

Its a simple plan. You are correct!

1) 2009 is 45 days away.

2) Hybrid cars can't tow boats and stuff for the most part. The ones than can , get the same mileage as straight gas.

3) Many gas and diesel models get better mileage than hybrids.

4) Hybrids are great and GM/Ford have more hybrid models that Toyota already. Fords latest are more advanced as our GMs this coming year. And they are even larger with mileage approaching close to 40 MPG.

5) It takes 5 years to get a new model out.

6) Its killing GM to get a VOLT out in 5 years... Due in late 2010. Toyota will not even make your 2011 dead line.

7) Straight electric liek the VOLT will not meet many needs.. but will be great for many needs. They have to be very light, 4 person cars to get the really high mileage. They will be mcuh more expensive than a great high mileage gas car.

8) Kit upgrades for heavy older used cars... not really practical or cost effective.

There was no oil shortage Yet. It was speculation driven.. Just a transfer of money from the middleclass to the top 1 percent in the world..


Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:13 AM on 11/21/2008
- janeInCA I'm a Fan of janeInCA 4 fans permalink
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we want no more oil, shortage or not. Let al qaedas have plenty of oil and they will trade fighting guns for $ and a small hut with a wife and family and a simple life. Ahmadinejad can have all the oils; he too will talk less of nucular if he has less $ and more oil.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:19 AM on 11/21/2008

So you're telling me that I can't have a Mustang. Way to go on crushing a kid's dream...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:34 AM on 11/21/2008
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LiV FLASH, an electric version of the BMW Mini Cooper at the ALT Expo:

http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/20081014

AltCar 2008: Chris Paine talks "Who Killed?" sequel, coming in 2010:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/27/altcar-2008-chris-paine-talks-who-killed-sequel-coming-in-2

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:50 AM on 11/21/2008
    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:39 AM on 11/21/2008
- Amalek I'm a Fan of Amalek 108 fans permalink
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I am not opposed to the government investing in keeping American jobs.

However, the shareholders of the auto companies that let these executives make these mistakes and still fly around in jets deserve to be wiped out. If the government has to give these companies $25 billion, then the government should own the companies.

If we ever decide to go back to capitalism we can take them public and reduce the public debt.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:24 AM on 11/21/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 265 fans permalink

The 3 of them have a stock value of about 8 billion. They have been wipped out! As has the state pension funds that hold most of the stock.. which means state employees pensions must now be refunded with higher taxes...


Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:30 AM on 11/21/2008
- janeInCA I'm a Fan of janeInCA 4 fans permalink
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right on.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:40 AM on 11/21/2008
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No more dumb technology.

Time to leave the 20th Century behind us!

The technology is HERE NOW! Proof of concept has been delivered.

Invest in the power grid to power an all electric fleet. Green jobs for a green America!

http://www.teslamotors.com/

http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:17 AM on 11/21/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 265 fans permalink

Yes a tesla is wonderul. a two seater that with options and a 2 year wait costs about 150K and will need 50K in batteries every 5 years.. no dealer network for servicing.­.. Not even ten cars delivered. 55% of the components are imported. Cant pull a trailer or a boat. No eletric car every will. But yes I would like a Volt and it is one solution. Who has the most hybrid models.... GM and Ford. Who has the best chance to get the most eletric cars on the road.. GM/Ford or tesla? In 2001 they willbe producing hundreds of thousands of them and tesla a hundred cars a year.


Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:36 AM on 11/21/2008
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Its a $100 sports car, why would you want to tow a boat with it?

50 have been delivered with 10 more every week. They cannot fill all the orders they have!

Tesla ALREADY has the most EVs on the road.

Tesla makes $$$.

Detroit loses it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:43 AM on 11/21/2008

It has to be done right this minute. No time to think, no time to make a plan for change. Just give us money now or the world will end. Any small business owner who went to their bank with that kind of story would be severely admonished for poor business planning and laughed out of the building.

If we really want change then we need to buck up and be prepared to feel the discomfort that change entails. I'm in.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:00 AM on 11/21/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 265 fans permalink

While on hold, no one is buying GM/Ford or Chrsyler cars or ledning money on them.. thuis the cost of the bailout is increasing 2 months from now it will be double since they will ahve shut their doors.

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:37 AM on 11/21/2008
- IAB I'm a Fan of IAB permalink

If they have to go under, so be it...no tears need be shed...eve­n many employees of these companies are aware of the virtue of having them go belly up.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:55 AM on 11/21/2008
- mtflyer I'm a Fan of mtflyer 8 fans permalink

Long ago, there should have been a law banning foreign investments in our industries and business in general, but greedy politicians and businessment only looked at the $ sign, not the reality that they were selling our country out from under us. It has always been about money, not God and Country.
Nothing would please me more than to see the federal government simply tell our foreign creditors including China to go to Hell and just try to collect a cent, but no one has the guts.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:44 PM on 11/20/2008

"Long ago, there should have been a law banning foreign investments in our industries and business in general"

That's completely untenable. Aside from the fact that without foreign investment from one country to another, the global economy would come to a complete halt (and where do you think your gas would come from? The US isn't energy independen­t....), would you set up a massive bureaucracy of red tape to determine who is and isn't eligible to invest? Companies set up subsidiary companies with offices all over the world, or even just post office boxes. There's no way to simply say "only Americans can invest in American industries and business."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:54 PM on 11/20/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 265 fans permalink

And yet the fastest growing ecomony in the world.(now 2nd largest economy),. Our banker and MFG'r is a completely controlled state run enterprise that gets 50% ownership in every business that operates there as Dubai does and has massive protection of its MFG base, high import tarrifs and whose goal is to allow only what is made there to be sold there and that now includes cars.

Sorry but again no one is playing by the free trade rules. The first law a U.S. Congress every based was a high tarrif against British MFG goods so we could grow Manufacturing here since we could not other wise compete with the British. Japan did not allow US cars in after WW2, so they could grow an auto iindustry. Today their market is still protected. a Toyota sells there for twice as much here. Toyota sells at no profit here to gain market share. Would you pay twice as much for a Toyota? Would a 50K Celica look like it was so much better made than a 22K Chevy?

Regards.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:17 AM on 11/21/2008
- Amalek I'm a Fan of Amalek 108 fans permalink
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Of course, Ford and GM make and sell more cars outside the US than in the US.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:17 AM on 11/21/2008
- boatsfra I'm a Fan of boatsfra 4 fans permalink

McDonald's, Wendy's and Burger King are next:

They are going under unless they get 25 billion dollars from Washington­...million­s of schoolkids and military rejects out of work...a surplus of lettuce! We might just get healthier! No more Ronald McDonald..­.

Then ATT, Verizon, Cingular,

Then The Cincinnati Bengals, Detriot Lions, and Los Angeles Clippers

Then who?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:35 PM on 11/20/2008

I had to laugh. Is it the Apacolypse yet?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:40 PM on 11/20/2008
- Amalek I'm a Fan of Amalek 108 fans permalink
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Joe the Plumber - no wait, he already collected.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:18 AM on 11/21/2008
- boatsfra I'm a Fan of boatsfra 4 fans permalink

I say give the big 3 the whole 700 billion dollars...­its only money...we can print more right? It's actually funny the 3 stooges came to Washington and asked for "only" 25 BILLION dollars...­where did they come up with that number? I don't believe that a million people will lose their jobs...now cardealers, I could care less...tel­l me the last time you ENJOYED a trip to the cardealer?! Let them sink...lik­e we need more cars out there...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:31 PM on 11/20/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 265 fans permalink

Yes let their kids eat cake.. 3 million more forelcosur­es... you will pick up their food bills and give their kids a place to sleep. You dont believe that... well we are already losing jobs at 250K per month. We have created no net private sector jobs in 8 years. 500K filed for unemployemnet in each of the last 2 weeks, the highest ever in 25 years...

Hoover said the same thing in 1929 as 35% of the homes were forclosed and unemployment hit 30 percent.

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:21 AM on 11/21/2008
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If Americans must subsidize, lets subsidize advanced technology that will put us decades ahead of the rest of the world.

California has already pitched in with $11 Million. Keep the jobs and the profits in the US!

http://www.teslamotors.com/

http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:06 PM on 11/20/2008
- Viper I'm a Fan of Viper 265 fans permalink

Funding advanced technology is not much bang for the buck, if the results are made eleswhere. The research employees tens of thousands.­.. the MFG employees millions.

We invented everything , but make none of it here anymore. We import more high tech than we export.

Regards

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:23 AM on 11/21/2008
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The factory is in California.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:29 AM on 11/21/2008
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Hybridtechnologies factory is in Mooresville, NC.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:33 AM on 11/21/2008
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