Stock market doesn't flinch despite economic data

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JEANNINE AVERSA | November 25, 2008 05:26 PM EST | AP

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President-elect Barack Obama appears on a television screen on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, Tuesday Nov. 25, 2008. (AP Photo/Richard Drew)

WASHINGTON — Bad news was no news to the battered American economy Tuesday.

The government released a triple dose of discouraging data: The economy shrank over the summer even more than previously believed, and consumers reduced their spending by the largest amount in 28 years. During the same period, home prices fell to levels not seen since early 2004.

"Consumers and businesses were like deer in the headlights ... frozen," said economist Ken Mayland, president of ClearView Economics.

Most of the numbers were updates of previously released figures, and the revisions indicated that economic conditions were growing worse.

But Wall Street barely flinched and actually recorded its third straight day of gains, something that had not happened since the financial meltdown began almost 2 1/2 months ago. The Dow Jones industrials closed up 36 points, following a two-day rally in which the major indexes soared more than 11 percent.

The updated reading on the economy's performance from the Commerce Department showed the gross domestic product shrank at a 0.5 percent annual rate in the July-September quarter.

That was weaker than the 0.3 percent rate of decline first estimated a month ago, and it marked the worst showing since the economy contracted at a 1.4 percent pace in the third quarter of 2001, when terrorists attacked the U.S. and the nation was suffering through its last recession.

GDP measures the value of all goods and services produced within the U.S. and is considered the best barometer of the country's economic fitness.

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The new GDP figure matched economists' expectations, but nevertheless underscored just how quickly the economy deteriorated as the housing and credit crisis intensified. The economy logged growth of 2.8 percent in the second quarter.

White House press secretary Dana Perino called the lower GDP figure "troubling" and said $800 billion in new government efforts announced Tuesday should help spur more consumer spending by expanding the availability of loans and credit cards at cheaper rates.

Meanwhile, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. said the list of banks it considers to be in trouble shot up nearly 50 percent to 171 during the third quarter _ the highest level since late 1995.

The FDIC also said that commercial banks and savings institutions suffered a 94 percent drop in third-quarter profits to $1.7 billion. Except for the fourth quarter of 2007, it was the lowest profit since the fourth quarter of 1990.

The FDIC does not reveal the institutions on its "troubled" list, but on average, about 13 percent of them end up failing.

Nine banks failed in the third quarter, reducing the FDIC's deposit insurance fund to $34.6 billion from $45.2 billion in the second quarter. Both figures are below the target minimum level set by Congress.

Twenty-two banks have failed so far this year compared with three for all of 2007, and more failures are expected.

Elsewhere, the New York-based Conference Board said its Consumer Confidence Index for November rose to 44.9, from a revised 38.8 in October. Last month's reading was the lowest since the research group started tracking the index in 1967, and Americans' views on the economy remain the gloomiest in decades as they grapple with massive layoffs, slumping home prices and dwindling retirement funds.

To revive the economy, President-elect Barack Obama says a top priority will be working with Congress to enact a massive stimulus package that he says will generate millions of new jobs.

The new, lower third-quarter GDP reading mostly reflected an even sharper cutback in spending by consumers and slower sales growth of U.S. exports.

American consumers _ the lifeblood of the economy _ slashed spending in the third quarter at a 3.7 percent pace. That was deeper than the 3.1 percent cut initially reported and marked the biggest reduction since the second quarter of 1980, when the country was in the grip of recession.

Consumers have grown nervous about spending because of job losses, declining investment portfolios and sinking home values.

Underscoring the strain, the report showed that Americans' disposable income fell at an annual rate of 9.2 percent in the third quarter, the largest quarterly drop on records dating back to 1947. The government's initial estimate had showed a record 8.7 percent decline in disposable income for the quarter.

Sales of U.S. exports grew at a 3.4 percent pace in the third quarter. That was lower than a 5.9 percent growth rate initially estimated and marked a sharp slowdown from the second quarter's blistering 12.3 percent growth rate. The deceleration reflects less demand from overseas buyers coping with their own economic problems.

Home builders slashed spending at a 17.6 percent pace, marking the 11th straight quarterly cut and fresh evidence of the depth of the housing slump.

Also Tuesday, a report on home prices and downbeat earnings results from homebuilder D.R. Horton showed further deterioration in the housing market. The Standard & Poor's/Case-Shiller U.S. National Home Price Index said that home prices tumbled a record 16.6 percent during the third quarter from the same period a year ago. Prices are at levels not seen since the first quarter of 2004.

Fort Worth, Tex.-based D.R. Horton Inc. reported a nearly $800 million loss in its fiscal fourth quarter on slower home sales and more than $1 billion in charges amid a battered housing market.

To help revive the economy, the Federal Reserve is expected to lower interest rates when its meets on Dec. 16, its last session of the year. Last month, the Fed dropped its key rate to 1 percent, a level seen only once before in the last half-century.

So far, though, the Fed's rate reductions _ a $700 billion financial bailout package and a flurry of other radical actions _ have been unable to break though a dangerous credit clog, restore stability to financial markets and help the sinking economy.

The nation's unemployment rate is at 6.5 percent, a 14-year high, and is expected to climb. Employers have cut payrolls every month so far this year. The total number of unemployed in October was just over 10 million, the most in 25 years.

Given all the bad news, consumers are likely to make still more cuts, probably ensuring that the economy continues to shrink for the remainder of 2008 and into 2009.

WASHINGTON — Bad news was no news to the battered American economy Tuesday. The government released a triple dose of discouraging data: The economy shrank over the summer even more than previou...
WASHINGTON — Bad news was no news to the battered American economy Tuesday. The government released a triple dose of discouraging data: The economy shrank over the summer even more than previou...
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- Dayahka I'm a Fan of Dayahka 33 fans permalink

You cannot "revive" something that is dead; you can only bury it and start over.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:12 PM on 11/25/2008
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The problem is that no one wants to admit that our economic paradigm was a farce. Starting over would amount to an admission that we don't have the best way.

Imagine that.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:22 PM on 11/25/2008
- SailFree I'm a Fan of SailFree 29 fans permalink

Or an admission that we had the best way and were stupid enough to embrace left-wing feel-good Keynesian tax-spend ideas. Both parties went astray.

It was bad enough when one party was a tax-and-spend lush on a binge.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:30 PM on 11/25/2008
- GaBu I'm a Fan of GaBu 23 fans permalink
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I'm too big to fail!

(At least that was what my wife says)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:01 PM on 11/25/2008
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Someone married you?

:p

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:02 PM on 11/25/2008
- ere I'm a Fan of ere 50 fans permalink

nasty

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'ere - Atlanta Progressive Jazz
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    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:04 PM on 11/25/2008

Your wife ?


What's his name ?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:06 PM on 11/25/2008
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GaBu was telling the truth! He is to big to fall. How could she pick him up?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:11 PM on 11/25/2008
- GaBu I'm a Fan of GaBu 23 fans permalink
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Hey, I shaved since then, so I weigh less.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:00 PM on 11/25/2008

Yeah right. Don't ever flag me again. loser.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:55 PM on 11/25/2008
- GaBu I'm a Fan of GaBu 23 fans permalink
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Hey, I never flagged you.

I never flag anyone.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:01 PM on 11/25/2008
- SailFree I'm a Fan of SailFree 29 fans permalink

What's the difference between a feeble old man and a man with priapism?

One falls down and can't get up, and the other gets up and can't fall down.

That's a joke I made up.

I think it's funny...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:31 PM on 11/25/2008

John McCain just had to have a press conference today.

Guess his irrelevance hasn't sunk in yet.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:00 PM on 11/25/2008
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Did anyone show up?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:01 PM on 11/25/2008
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They didn't even show when he was somewhat relevant.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:03 PM on 11/25/2008
- ere I'm a Fan of ere 50 fans permalink

no, sarah wasn't there

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'ere - Atlanta Progressive Jazz
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    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:08 PM on 11/25/2008

"It doesn't matter whether we produce computer chips or potato chips." ~ St. Ronnie

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:59 PM on 11/25/2008
- k6007 I'm a Fan of k6007 237 fans permalink
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Was that before or after senility sat in?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:01 PM on 11/25/2008
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Potato chips are easier to chew.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:31 PM on 11/25/2008
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computer chips are easier to stick on a motherboard.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:48 PM on 11/25/2008

Let's review the problem list:
Rampant, unregulated outsourcing. (check)
US biggest export: recyclable garbage sent to China. (check)
Tax breaks for the richest of the rich, a wartime first. (check)
Billions, if not over $1 trillion poured into the sands of Iraq. (check)
Rampant war profiteering, no oversight or accountability. (check)
Financial crisis brought on by ill advised deregulation, rampant greed. (check)

Proposed solution: print more dollars and hand it to the financial execs partly responsible for the mess! Brilliant! /snark

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:58 PM on 11/25/2008
- Tinkeraw I'm a Fan of Tinkeraw 2 fans permalink

How come most people knew we were in a recession this summer, but "they" kept saying no, no we are not. Hello, the "people" are smarter than the "experts" because we are out here living it, having to make ends meet, seeing the jobs evaporate, business contracts slow down, prices go up. Just step outside the bubble and see ... that's all these "experts" need to do.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:57 PM on 11/25/2008

Experts knew we were in a recession, they didn't want to say it publicly because they didn't want consumer confidence to go down! It went down any way!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:58 PM on 11/25/2008

If you believe that there is symmetry in the design of the universe and that it applies to the economic numbers, read this. But don't read it if you are not prepared to see just how bad it is.

http://www.economicfractalist.com/blog/

Throwing money at the problem is not the solution. The fire is too big. The experts know this in their guts, but they need to do something, so they are doing this because they don't know what else to do. I think Obama is smarter than most of us, but I don't think that even he realizes this yet. Either that or he is in on it with Bush.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:51 PM on 11/25/2008
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Fractals & human nature (chaos) don't mix.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:53 PM on 11/25/2008
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There is symmetry in the design of the universe. Emmy Noether's theorem deduces all the known conservation laws from symmetry ideas. So conservation of energy, momentum, charge... all these can be derived from ideas about symmetry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noether's_theorem

Economics? not so much do I believe in symmetry there.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:55 PM on 11/25/2008
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I agree. It's time to dump the economists, and bring in the physicists to solve this problem.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:00 PM on 11/25/2008
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Be careful!!
Mark Penn is looking for you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:14 PM on 11/25/2008

New money and old money with partnerships, don't mix. Like you said "I don't think that even [Obama] realizes the depth of the problem.

Talk about a new economic order on tap...the only out.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:30 PM on 11/25/2008
- Jonni Rae I'm a Fan of Jonni Rae 22 fans permalink

Those experts on Wall Street don't even understand the convoluted system they created of selling debt, for God's sake. They lost touch with the basic principles of capitalism, one of which is capital, not debt. The other is the need for a populace with jobs that pay enough to buy stuff without going into debt, and the ability to save money that the banks can invest. Finally, the anti-trust laws were never enforced so that monopolies crushed capitalism. We are going to have to nationalize the banks, eventually. We are going to have to start making things here again. We are going to have to pay people living wages. We are going to have to have a national health care and child care program. The slogan during the Reagan years was " The one who dies with the most toys wins." That says it all.
That philosophy is what got us here.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:39 PM on 11/25/2008

Obama's in for a tough first term. I listened to his press conference today, and he said he planned on restoring confidence in our economy, but I don't think that's possible at this point. Our joke of an economy based on credit (and this is not all G Bush's fault, been coming for decades) has been exposed, and I'm not sure there's a cure. Stimulus is just propping up the house of cards, bailouts are giving a heroin addict a fix. I think maybe the only answer is a full fledged move to socialism. Jack London wrote in his classic socialist manifesto Martin Eden that the eventual evolution of Capitalism is into Socialism once all the corporations merge into one. Maybe it's time to accelerate that by making the U.S. Government the big corporation of all.

My 2 cents

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:49 PM on 11/25/2008
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"My 2 cents"

Now worth minus 15 cents!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:51 PM on 11/25/2008
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Which means you now owe me a dollar. Pay up!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:58 PM on 11/25/2008

It's been coming for decades because Trickle Down Your Leg economics works about as well as Ronnie R e t a r d's "Star Wars" missile defense system/program did..........

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:53 PM on 11/25/2008
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The "United States, Incorporated"?

Nah.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:54 PM on 11/25/2008
- Jonni Rae I'm a Fan of Jonni Rae 22 fans permalink

I agree but it will take years for people to accept this.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:41 PM on 11/25/2008

All I have to say is, thank God for Barack Obama right now.

"Good morning.

I speak to you today, mindful that we meet at a moment of great challenge for America, as our credit markets are stressed, and our families are struggling. But as difficult as these times are, I’m confident that we will rise to meet this challenge — if we’re willing to band together and recognize that Wall Street cannot thrive so long as Main Street is struggling; if we’re willing to summon a new spirit of ingenuity and determination; and if Americans of great intellect, broad experience, and good character are willing to serve in government at this hour of need."

He understands that it is going to take all of us working together to fix this problem.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:48 PM on 11/25/2008
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Uh OH!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:49 PM on 11/25/2008
- truthforme I'm a Fan of truthforme 9 fans permalink

Really. If it takes ALL of us were screwed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:00 PM on 11/25/2008
- jsarets I'm a Fan of jsarets 185 fans permalink

Exactly whose expectation is the economy underperforming? It seems to me that the economy is doing unbelievably (read: artificially) well given the dramatic capitulation of consumers and investors both drowning in unsustainable debt obligations.

Statements like this are substantially at fault:

"GDP measures the value of all goods and services produced within the U.S. and is considered the best barometer of the country's economic fitness."

GDP is a measure of output. It has no direct relationship nor even a strong correlation with national prosperity. Using GDP as the authoritative barometer of economic fitness is a recipe for the reinstatement of slavery.

The true measure of economic fitness is purchasing power or effective demand. It's the value of the products we can consume and the properties we can acquire due to our participation in the economy. It's the extent to which the economy empowers us to enrich our lives.

In this respect:

"Americans' disposable income fell at an annual rate of 9.2 percent in the third quarter, the largest quarterly drop on records dating back to 1947."

That's a much better quantitative measure of what's happening to our economy, and there's every reason to believe that this number is soft. That is, our seemingly dismal effective demand would be even worst (perhaps substantially worse) if our economy dysfunction had not been deferred to the future by deficit spending in the public and private sectors.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:48 PM on 11/25/2008
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to a point... but the TRUE measure of a nations economy is it's JOBLESS rate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:50 PM on 11/25/2008
- ere I'm a Fan of ere 50 fans permalink

not to be confused with the phony 'unemployment' rate, which only counts people actively receiving unemployment payments

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'ere - Atlanta Progressive Jazz
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    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:52 PM on 11/25/2008
- jsarets I'm a Fan of jsarets 185 fans permalink

I disagree. It doesn't matter if everybody has a job if the jobs don't pay a living wage, and if everybody had a job, we'd need to consume at an unsustainable rate to justify that much production.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:34 PM on 11/25/2008
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The smart ones cashed in their 401K's a few months ago realizing the earlyWithdrawalPenalty was way less than the upcomingCrash.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:47 PM on 11/25/2008
- ere I'm a Fan of ere 50 fans permalink

actually, I skipped the whole 401k thing altogether and my money is still in an FDIC insured bank getting steady interest

I did much better in the long run than falling for the con of the 401k

It was always just a con to steal the pension money anyway - Pensions, remember those?

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'ere - Atlanta Progressive Jazz
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    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:07 PM on 11/25/2008
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Hypothetical: if you have investment units/mixed use, that you don't owe anything on and you want to sell and there are no buyers, is the only alternative available to you is to sit on the property, until the market turns around?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:47 PM on 11/25/2008
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Are you insured?

Got a match?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:50 PM on 11/25/2008
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LOL -- terrible.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:52 PM on 11/25/2008
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Did you all send lots of mail to huffpo when scandals & skeletons was banned?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:46 PM on 11/25/2008
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I did.

Why?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:47 PM on 11/25/2008
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Much appreciated.
heh

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:01 PM on 11/25/2008
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Was Scandals banned?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:48 PM on 11/25/2008
- ere I'm a Fan of ere 50 fans permalink

I wondered the same about RantingTommy

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'ere - Atlanta Progressive Jazz
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    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:51 PM on 11/25/2008
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roflmao

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:00 PM on 11/25/2008
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You're nobody until you've been banned! Welcome to the club.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:52 PM on 11/25/2008
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not the first, but thank you for entrance to the club

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:04 PM on 11/25/2008
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.....and yet almost half the people in this country wanted to put in charge a man who claimed our economy was strong.... Thank God the common-sense majority prevailed!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:46 PM on 11/25/2008
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A man who still thinks the problem is spending and earmarks.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:48 PM on 11/25/2008
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The smart ones cashed in their 401K's a few months ago realizing the early withdrawal penalty was way less than the upcoming crash.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:46 PM on 11/25/2008
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And I'm not kidding. My brother-in-law is a cpa and he told me yesterday that he gets 20 - 30 calls a day regarding the early cashing of 401's.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:54 PM on 11/25/2008
- truthforme I'm a Fan of truthforme 9 fans permalink

I think the time to cash in your 401k is past.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:59 PM on 11/25/2008
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