Stock market doesn't flinch despite economic data

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JEANNINE AVERSA | November 25, 2008 05:26 PM EST | AP

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President-elect Barack Obama appears on a television screen on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, Tuesday Nov. 25, 2008. (AP Photo/Richard Drew)

WASHINGTON — Bad news was no news to the battered American economy Tuesday.

The government released a triple dose of discouraging data: The economy shrank over the summer even more than previously believed, and consumers reduced their spending by the largest amount in 28 years. During the same period, home prices fell to levels not seen since early 2004.

"Consumers and businesses were like deer in the headlights ... frozen," said economist Ken Mayland, president of ClearView Economics.

Most of the numbers were updates of previously released figures, and the revisions indicated that economic conditions were growing worse.

But Wall Street barely flinched and actually recorded its third straight day of gains, something that had not happened since the financial meltdown began almost 2 1/2 months ago. The Dow Jones industrials closed up 36 points, following a two-day rally in which the major indexes soared more than 11 percent.

The updated reading on the economy's performance from the Commerce Department showed the gross domestic product shrank at a 0.5 percent annual rate in the July-September quarter.

That was weaker than the 0.3 percent rate of decline first estimated a month ago, and it marked the worst showing since the economy contracted at a 1.4 percent pace in the third quarter of 2001, when terrorists attacked the U.S. and the nation was suffering through its last recession.

GDP measures the value of all goods and services produced within the U.S. and is considered the best barometer of the country's economic fitness.

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The new GDP figure matched economists' expectations, but nevertheless underscored just how quickly the economy deteriorated as the housing and credit crisis intensified. The economy logged growth of 2.8 percent in the second quarter.

White House press secretary Dana Perino called the lower GDP figure "troubling" and said $800 billion in new government efforts announced Tuesday should help spur more consumer spending by expanding the availability of loans and credit cards at cheaper rates.

Meanwhile, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. said the list of banks it considers to be in trouble shot up nearly 50 percent to 171 during the third quarter _ the highest level since late 1995.

The FDIC also said that commercial banks and savings institutions suffered a 94 percent drop in third-quarter profits to $1.7 billion. Except for the fourth quarter of 2007, it was the lowest profit since the fourth quarter of 1990.

The FDIC does not reveal the institutions on its "troubled" list, but on average, about 13 percent of them end up failing.

Nine banks failed in the third quarter, reducing the FDIC's deposit insurance fund to $34.6 billion from $45.2 billion in the second quarter. Both figures are below the target minimum level set by Congress.

Twenty-two banks have failed so far this year compared with three for all of 2007, and more failures are expected.

Elsewhere, the New York-based Conference Board said its Consumer Confidence Index for November rose to 44.9, from a revised 38.8 in October. Last month's reading was the lowest since the research group started tracking the index in 1967, and Americans' views on the economy remain the gloomiest in decades as they grapple with massive layoffs, slumping home prices and dwindling retirement funds.

To revive the economy, President-elect Barack Obama says a top priority will be working with Congress to enact a massive stimulus package that he says will generate millions of new jobs.

The new, lower third-quarter GDP reading mostly reflected an even sharper cutback in spending by consumers and slower sales growth of U.S. exports.

American consumers _ the lifeblood of the economy _ slashed spending in the third quarter at a 3.7 percent pace. That was deeper than the 3.1 percent cut initially reported and marked the biggest reduction since the second quarter of 1980, when the country was in the grip of recession.

Consumers have grown nervous about spending because of job losses, declining investment portfolios and sinking home values.

Underscoring the strain, the report showed that Americans' disposable income fell at an annual rate of 9.2 percent in the third quarter, the largest quarterly drop on records dating back to 1947. The government's initial estimate had showed a record 8.7 percent decline in disposable income for the quarter.

Sales of U.S. exports grew at a 3.4 percent pace in the third quarter. That was lower than a 5.9 percent growth rate initially estimated and marked a sharp slowdown from the second quarter's blistering 12.3 percent growth rate. The deceleration reflects less demand from overseas buyers coping with their own economic problems.

Home builders slashed spending at a 17.6 percent pace, marking the 11th straight quarterly cut and fresh evidence of the depth of the housing slump.

Also Tuesday, a report on home prices and downbeat earnings results from homebuilder D.R. Horton showed further deterioration in the housing market. The Standard & Poor's/Case-Shiller U.S. National Home Price Index said that home prices tumbled a record 16.6 percent during the third quarter from the same period a year ago. Prices are at levels not seen since the first quarter of 2004.

Fort Worth, Tex.-based D.R. Horton Inc. reported a nearly $800 million loss in its fiscal fourth quarter on slower home sales and more than $1 billion in charges amid a battered housing market.

To help revive the economy, the Federal Reserve is expected to lower interest rates when its meets on Dec. 16, its last session of the year. Last month, the Fed dropped its key rate to 1 percent, a level seen only once before in the last half-century.

So far, though, the Fed's rate reductions _ a $700 billion financial bailout package and a flurry of other radical actions _ have been unable to break though a dangerous credit clog, restore stability to financial markets and help the sinking economy.

The nation's unemployment rate is at 6.5 percent, a 14-year high, and is expected to climb. Employers have cut payrolls every month so far this year. The total number of unemployed in October was just over 10 million, the most in 25 years.

Given all the bad news, consumers are likely to make still more cuts, probably ensuring that the economy continues to shrink for the remainder of 2008 and into 2009.

WASHINGTON — Bad news was no news to the battered American economy Tuesday. The government released a triple dose of discouraging data: The economy shrank over the summer even more than previou...
WASHINGTON — Bad news was no news to the battered American economy Tuesday. The government released a triple dose of discouraging data: The economy shrank over the summer even more than previou...
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Reduce consumers' buying power further by printing more money, that's exactly what the economy needs to recover from lack of consumer buying power. Perfect. Keep it up. I'm looking forward to my $40 pizza.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:43 PM on 11/25/2008

Why wouldn’t the government do this:

Total tab of the bail out is somewhere around $850,000,000,000. Why would we even think of putting any dollars into companies that obviously created this problem? Don’t give them a penny. Instead, use that money and give tax paying citizen making less than $250,000/yr a check instead. The recent stimulus checks should be considered a joke compared to what some companies are getting from this bailout. A rebate check of $500 or even a $1000 does little more than may my heating bill for the winter with little to no overall improvement in quality of life. But if you were to equally distribute the entire $850,000,000,000 among tax paying citizens, wouldn’t people pay down there mortgages? Pay off the credit cards? Buy the new car they need? And the senior citizens that had to go back to work would finally be able to retire, again. And with people being able to finally retire, wouldn’t that open jobs for the massive unemployment?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:41 PM on 11/25/2008
- zenlikejen I'm a Fan of zenlikejen 19 fans permalink
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Whoa there...yo­u are making too much sense!

It's a shame that politicians are in charge of this thing....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:52 PM on 11/25/2008
- ere I'm a Fan of ere 50 fans permalink

makes sense on the surface, but it would cause massive inflation

better to spend it on infrastructure, which stimulates the economy with jobs and results in highways, bridges, schools, etc that we can use

----------­----------­----------­----------­-----
'ere - Atlanta Progressive Jazz
Become a Fan (Yes, that's me on piano):
http://www.reverbnation.com/ere
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    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:56 PM on 11/25/2008
- Sunmaker I'm a Fan of Sunmaker 3 fans permalink

I agree totally with your idea. If the Government would deposit in each household's bank a check for $25,000.00­, and let the banks monitor the money to pay for credit cards, help on mortgages, buy a car, pay on medical bills, home improvments, start a a small business, solar, heating bills etc. etc. etc. etc. The people who make over $250,000.0­0 should also get a check to do as they wish as long as it is not for personal use. This would also help out the small banks and large banks to get the cash flow going. The economy is only going to grow from the bottom up, and if people do not have a job expect the worse!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:00 PM on 11/25/2008
- Choicelady I'm a Fan of Choicelady 66 fans permalink

I think to sustain our economy one would need to make a huge investment in actual productive businesses, too. Otherwise a lot of this money just flows overseas and permits us to continue the disaster of basing all our production elsewhere. We really do need steel, autos, chemicals, electrical, and other industries upon which we can base a sustainable growth. THEN we have an economy upon which we can rely that provides good wages, benefits, and yes even retirement. How absurd is the STILL prevalent idea that people wanting a middle class wage are 'greedy' but these obscenely wealthy failures of corporate executives are NOT???? Honor working men and women, blue and white collar, who make our nation prosperous. Let's change the tax laws so that when companies close, WE don't give them cash for their failure. Let's reward solid businesses, worker ownership and management as economic goods. Let's not bail out paper companies and let's punish fraud in the corporate board rooms. Failure should NOT be rewarded, but work and production should. Remember "It's a Wonderful Life" - businesses that add value to their communities and nation are our strength. Businesses that steal to benefit the few are not.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:07 PM on 11/25/2008
- lola85 I'm a Fan of lola85 8 fans permalink

While it sounds good in theory--actually when you divide the $850,000,000,000 (yikes is that enough zeros?!) by the number of TAXPAYING citizens (not total citizens but those of us that pay taxes), which is roughly between 170,000,000 to 180,000,000 (help me out for those who know the correct figure) it isn't that much money per person. Say the money is split between 175,000,000 (one hundred and seventy five million)--it only adds up to about $5000 (a little less actually) per person. While that is more than the stimulus package that was distributed last year, people still couldn't significantly pay down their mortgages, etc. Note: I don't know the figure of how many make less than $250,000 per year, but I believe it is still the majority of us.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:44 PM on 11/25/2008
- forty8r I'm a Fan of forty8r 19 fans permalink
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Reganomics RIP

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:40 PM on 11/25/2008

In the history of the United States, the National debt has been doubled by only three administrations.

Reagan, Bush 41 and Bush 43.
http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm

Bush 43 may finally be able to outdo his father, and leave office tripling the debt.

Bush 43. Oedipus Tex

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:38 PM on 11/25/2008
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Oh... the IMAGERY!

(gag)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:40 PM on 11/25/2008

We knew W's agenda was a failure. Now the only issue is how colossal the failure is.
Have to say, the amounts being reported are unprecented.
But no crime has been committed.­....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:46 PM on 11/25/2008
- solid I'm a Fan of solid 24 fans permalink

Oh, crimes have been committed all right. But of course they won't be prosecuted by the rollover party.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:58 PM on 11/25/2008
- WIpatriot I'm a Fan of WIpatriot 36 fans permalink
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Borrow and spend Repubies.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:46 PM on 11/25/2008
- RJII I'm a Fan of RJII 77 fans permalink
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Thank you Obama. The farm bill is largest form of subsidies (welfare) for white middle and upper class landowners. Six figure checks just show up in the mail, eventhough these landowners rake in profitable years. It enables wealthier farmers to gobble up all the land from smaller farmers hindering their growth. It's a big constituient gravy train, laden w/ fraud.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:30 PM on 11/25/2008
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Why blame Obama?

... he's for HARD CAPPING the subsidies.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:40 PM on 11/25/2008
- mdmpo I'm a Fan of mdmpo 18 fans permalink
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Obama called out the travesty of giving checks to millionaires.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:50 PM on 11/25/2008
- flatus I'm a Fan of flatus 36 fans permalink
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Try looking at it this way. As long as farm subsidies are being paid it means that there is still more land available for later use as we, the human race, overpopulate ourselves to death.

Does that help?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:58 PM on 11/25/2008
- SailFree I'm a Fan of SailFree 29 fans permalink

"Greed" sounds bad, and certainly some people (crooks) take it too far, using various means to STEAL what does not belong to them or what they do not earn. The government falls into the latter category, earning NOTHING yet taking more and more from citizens through taxes. Why doesn't anyone ever stop to consider governments as GREEDY when they raise taxes?

Most of the time, rational self-interest, working and planning to earn and keep more, is NOT GREED in the sense of stealing or taking what is not earned, but more on the lines of EARNING MORE and KEEPING MORE OF WHAT IS EARNED. This is GOOD. It tends to grow the economy by encouraging effort.

We might get further in discussing proper taxation and other government policy IF WE STOPPED TALKING ABOUT GREED SO MUCH! Mostly it is just a disguise for class warfare and envy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:29 PM on 11/25/2008
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Thank you Mr. Boesky.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:41 PM on 11/25/2008
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must be nice in your little cut and dry world

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:59 PM on 11/25/2008
- SurferKit I'm a Fan of SurferKit 179 fans permalink
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Another Republican that doesn't like to pay his fair share of taxes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:03 PM on 11/25/2008
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Once again, SailFree is reliably BrainFree.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:13 PM on 11/25/2008

Sometimes you have to read between the lines of what people are saying and then simply call them out for being d0uchy...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:25 PM on 11/25/2008
- tomas0808 I'm a Fan of tomas0808 9 fans permalink

Burn baby burn disco inferno

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 PM on 11/25/2008
- mero909 I'm a Fan of mero909 31 fans permalink
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Ok?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:32 PM on 11/25/2008
- shedances I'm a Fan of shedances 40 fans permalink
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No matter how bad things get in our economy, I hope that Pres. Elect Obama will stick to what he promised regarding pulling our troops out of Iraq. No matter how bad things are here, we have an ethical obligation not to make them worse someplace else.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:26 PM on 11/25/2008
- mero909 I'm a Fan of mero909 31 fans permalink
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I agree about pulling troops out of Iraq. Shouldn't have gone there in the first place, but he wants to put them in Afghanistan. No need.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 PM on 11/25/2008
- K-Dog76 I'm a Fan of K-Dog76 8 fans permalink

There won't be a pullout until 2011, its been in the news already. Liberal sources too.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:44 PM on 11/25/2008
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CHRISTMAS 2008
As Dolly says "Lord it's like a hard candy Christmas"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:23 PM on 11/25/2008
- williamg I'm a Fan of williamg 251 fans permalink
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An adult holds a press conference:


"I won 53% of the vote, that means 46 or 47% of the country voted for John McCain. And, it's important, I said on election night, that we enter into the new administration with a sense of of humility and a recognition that wisdom is not the monopoly of any one party. In order for us to be effective, given the scope and scale of the challenges that we face, Republicans and Democrats are going to have to work together. And, I think what the American people want more than anything is just common sense, smart government. They don't ideology; they don't want bickering; they don't what sniping. They want action, and they want effectiven­ess."

--Barack Obama, in response to question about his mandate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:23 PM on 11/25/2008
- mdmpo I'm a Fan of mdmpo 18 fans permalink
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Yes. That was so awesome. I literally got chills.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:31 PM on 11/25/2008
- Klimb I'm a Fan of Klimb 21 fans permalink

Spot on!!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:31 PM on 11/25/2008
- bonofide I'm a Fan of bonofide 6 fans permalink
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Sit back. Relax. Take a deep breath. Breath in the joy of an intelligent creative
person who will soon be the official leader of this country.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:31 PM on 11/25/2008
- truthforme I'm a Fan of truthforme 9 fans permalink

You know, I could get used to having an intelligent, common sense kind of president. :)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:42 PM on 11/25/2008
- WIpatriot I'm a Fan of WIpatriot 36 fans permalink
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53% do.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:49 PM on 11/25/2008

'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.­'

Thomas Jefferson 1802

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:22 PM on 11/25/2008
- tomas0808 I'm a Fan of tomas0808 9 fans permalink

Good one. Banks, Corporations, Advertisers, and the politicians who side with them are mortal enemies of the people

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:32 PM on 11/25/2008
- K-Dog76 I'm a Fan of K-Dog76 8 fans permalink

that leaves the small business owners and the unemployed as the only ones with clean hands at this point

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:47 PM on 11/25/2008
- bonofide I'm a Fan of bonofide 6 fans permalink
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I am constantly amazed at how the founders of this country had the forsight to expect
much of what would happen (and is happening) and how they could anticipate the
mistakes of a Democracy such as ours, Dubya notwithstanding.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:40 PM on 11/25/2008
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What's amazing is that during that time the King of England was King George. How ironic.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:02 PM on 11/25/2008
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I think he was visited by aliens.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:02 PM on 11/25/2008
- mdmpo I'm a Fan of mdmpo 18 fans permalink
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Obama's press conference today is excellent. This is beyond my expectations.

I'm starting to worry that I am beginning to think of him a as a savior. (JK - kind of).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:18 PM on 11/25/2008
- mero909 I'm a Fan of mero909 31 fans permalink
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It's not the government's job to create jobs! Why can't people figure this out!? Last I checked we were "suppose" to be a Capitalist society.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:23 PM on 11/25/2008
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Capitalism does not work. Why can't people figure this out? The last I checked our economy was in shambles because of the greed that is associated with capitalism.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:31 PM on 11/25/2008
- tomas0808 I'm a Fan of tomas0808 9 fans permalink

Right. Let's just leave it to the banks to create jobs. See how far that gets you

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:33 PM on 11/25/2008
- Zeje I'm a Fan of Zeje 9 fans permalink

Schools, libraries, public transportation, roads, highways, mail service -- and the military -- all provide jobs -- and grant contracts to private businesses.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:35 PM on 11/25/2008
- mdmpo I'm a Fan of mdmpo 18 fans permalink
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The public works infrastructure projects are detrimental to saving the construction industry. Have you noticed we're not building too many houses lately?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:40 PM on 11/25/2008
- Ramirez I'm a Fan of Ramirez 267 fans permalink
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Indeed. Some are saying he is the One.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:23 PM on 11/25/2008
- KO4Pres I'm a Fan of KO4Pres 155 fans permalink
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While some say he is 'that one'.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:27 PM on 11/25/2008
- mero909 I'm a Fan of mero909 31 fans permalink
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Hitler was seen as "the savior" too.

Now I'm just joking around. Of course I don't think Obama is another Hitler. I'd rather him just govern and not try to get the government involved in our daily lives.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:26 PM on 11/25/2008
- mero909 I'm a Fan of mero909 31 fans permalink
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Let's not go so far as to proclaim him as anything but a man. I mean, he hasn't even done anything yet.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 PM on 11/25/2008
- mdmpo I'm a Fan of mdmpo 18 fans permalink
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I was kidding. But I am incredibly impressed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:39 PM on 11/25/2008
- CBS I'm a Fan of CBS 18 fans permalink
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He is having one tomorrow too. He already is the president.­.the swearing in is just a formality.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:38 PM on 11/25/2008
- K-Dog76 I'm a Fan of K-Dog76 8 fans permalink

CBS, whoa there, he is not already the president, and its not just a formality. He isn't making any policies, dealing with foreign heads of state, nor can he push the button or give any orders...

He's in the process of getting his orientation, thats it... Getting the orientation is very important so that on day one everything operates.

He is one man, albeit a potentially great one, but don't deify him, I doubt he'd really appreciate it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:51 PM on 11/25/2008

Nooooooooo, the economy worst than they thought. Get out! Really. What did you think you knuckle heads. Record High Foreclosure, Record High Job Loss, Banks Not Lending & even Bank robberies at an all time high. What proof more do you need? Because the list can go on.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:17 PM on 11/25/2008
- mero909 I'm a Fan of mero909 31 fans permalink
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The sky is falling!

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdpnewsrelease.htm

Not really, but ok. I'm an optimist, maybe to a fault.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:21 PM on 11/25/2008
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Well, it hasn't been the requisite number of quarters to call it a recession, though.

We all knew we were in a recession earlier this year. The Bush Crime Family was desperately hoping they could push off the declaration of a recession until Obama took office. That way they could blame it on him.

No one with an IQ out of room temperature range (most of the 28%ers) will blame his financial crisis on Obama or the Democrats.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 PM on 11/25/2008
- dream9 I'm a Fan of dream9 9 fans permalink

How does re-inflating the bubble solve anything?

"... new government efforts announced Tuesday to boost the availability of auto and student loans, credit cards, home loans and other consumer lending _ at cheaper rates _ should eventually help spur more consumer spending."

Doesn't this simply spur more debt? We're already worse than broke.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:09 PM on 11/25/2008
- mero909 I'm a Fan of mero909 31 fans permalink
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Exactly! Why can't the government stay out of the way of free market? Capitalism isn't the problem, government intervention is.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:14 PM on 11/25/2008
- gcw I'm a Fan of gcw permalink

Deregulation sure didn't serve the financial makets, did it? Instead, back room deals in hidden trades on derivatives have created a "back debt" estimated at $55 trillion, larger than all the world's budgets put together.

You got your wish with 20+ years of Gramm & McCain deregulations. We got the first S&L crisis (remember Bush #!?), the Enron debacle (cost huge $$$$$$$ in shareholder losses, employee losses, pension fund losses....­etc). And, now we get this financial crisis which is due to wildly unregulated back deals.

More deregulation? Are you nuts?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:22 PM on 11/25/2008
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Oh really? Then how do you explain the implosion of our economy? There has been no government intervention so our economy should be humming. But it's not.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:29 PM on 11/25/2008
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When the government did deregulate the markets which gave these companies the privileged to do what they want, what happened?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:34 PM on 11/25/2008
- Zeje I'm a Fan of Zeje 9 fans permalink

Then why are all the big time capitalists -- the bankers and the investors -- calling constantly for more government intervention -- and then more -- and still more.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:36 PM on 11/25/2008
- WIpatriot I'm a Fan of WIpatriot 36 fans permalink
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Only the foolish believe the free market is anything close to being free.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:55 PM on 11/25/2008

Watch & Learn Kids, just watch & learn.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:19 PM on 11/25/2008
- mudbones I'm a Fan of mudbones 11 fans permalink

Really, there's too much debt now, that's the problem...­...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:20 PM on 11/25/2008
- K-Dog76 I'm a Fan of K-Dog76 8 fans permalink

dream9

great point

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:56 PM on 11/25/2008
- abby4ever I'm a Fan of abby4ever 239 fans permalink
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Ok, I put this on the other thread but without the question I will add on this one:

I just heard a woman named Ilana Goldman say on CNN, in answer to a question about whether people are justified in saying Obama has put too many Clintonites in his cabinet, that change is about what you get done, not about who you appoint to get it done.

Question: Is this answer in any way su.spect? Is it too pat? Is it naive? Or is it just a really good answer?! I called it a nice answer on the other thread but now I am wondering if it is naive. If it's a good answer, if it works, we could use it as standard reply to the thousands of 'Where is the change?' posts we get from what some of you call the changetro//s.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:08 PM on 11/25/2008
- Ramirez I'm a Fan of Ramirez 267 fans permalink
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I vote for "good answer!"


Only on a liberal message board do you focus-group how best to spin a question.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:12 PM on 11/25/2008
- SurferKit I'm a Fan of SurferKit 179 fans permalink
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Then why are you here on a liberal message board?

Liberals must be really cool to hang with since you spend so much of your valuable time with us.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:15 PM on 11/25/2008
- abby4ever I'm a Fan of abby4ever 239 fans permalink
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I wasn't doing that, it was a straightforward question, out of p.ure curiosity. Don't confuse what I went on to suggest, with the question itself.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:16 PM on 11/25/2008
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True. On any right wing forum nobody asks questions because everyone thinks they have all the answers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:17 PM on 11/25/2008
- kdublya I'm a Fan of kdublya 105 fans permalink
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If the opposite were true, Clintonites would complain they are underrepresented.
Be happy that enough people voted for Obama to give him a clear leadership mandate.

The rest is just tro//speak for divide & conquer.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:14 PM on 11/25/2008
- mdmpo I'm a Fan of mdmpo 18 fans permalink
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I think it is an excellent response. Everyone should question authority. But why complain until you have results.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:15 PM on 11/25/2008
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I think it's a pragmatic answer which doesn't really address the criticisms of the Clintons. It's kind of like saying "Yeah agreed - Hillary's a total pain and Bill's the same... I know what you mean about this not being real change not many new people and a lot of familiar faces, but the ends justify the means here."

Presumably Obama believes Hillary is competent.­.. let them say so and not pussyfoot around with statements which read like apologetics.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:16 PM on 11/25/2008
- abby4ever I'm a Fan of abby4ever 239 fans permalink
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I suppose you could squ.eeze that out of the question if you massaged the question for about a half an hour. Put differently, it is one reading of the question but not the most natural reading. Imo, anyway.

My concern was that it was naive, i.e. it might be naive to think that the change you want to bring about is as vitally important to everyone you appoint as it is to you, that it wouldn't matter if you appointed your worst enemy, he'd be so hot for the change you want that all that makes him your enemy would be either forgotten orshoved aside.

You may think that I myself massaged the question! To which I would say: even if I did, it only took me a minute; yours, as I said, would take 30!

:]

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:42 PM on 11/25/2008
- argent1 I'm a Fan of argent1 16 fans permalink

Think of it like a diaper change on a naive baby, who by nature are naive. It still doesn't help the baby to learn to use the potty, but the parent get to know the signs of a soiled diaper.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:23 PM on 11/25/2008
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