Rachel Maddow, Dahlia Lithwick On Obama And War Crimes (VIDEO)

On last night's Rachel Maddow show, Maddow engaged Slate's Dahlia Lithwick in a discussion on how Barack Obama might tend to some of the more morally troubling aspects of the outgoing Bush administration -- issues like torture and detention and rendition. Initially, Lithwick says, she was optimistic that an Obama administration would follow through on promises to close Gitmo and bring a halt to the practice of torture. But there's been some hedging.

"I've been waiting for war crimes tribunals to get sexy," Lithwick quipped,. "For folks like me, who have been covering Padilla and covering Moussaoui, covering Gitmo, covering waterboarding for years, we were waiting for this moment for [Obama] to say, as he said, days after the election...we're closing Guantanamo...and within hours, they kind of pulled back on it a little bit." Lithwick noted that the camp is taking a "turn the page" line on potential prosecutions, that it wasn't a matter the Obama team "wanted to expend capital on." "My feeling is," Lithwick said, "if you don't want to expend capital on war crimes, what do you want to spend it on?"

I've long been a fan of Lithwick's, and my heart on the matter is very much in alignment with hers -- torturers should be punished. Abrogations of legal rights must not be tolerated. Nevertheless, I get the distinct impression that the Obama camp has always been of the mind that they could either jump out on January 20, 2009 and start repairing the damage of the Bush administration or set out on a broad campaign of investigations and hearings to elucidate and punish wrongdoing, but that they could not do both, and so were going to follow the former path.

Moreover, while I feel pretty strongly about loudly holding Obama to his promise to end these evil practices and close Guantanamo Bay, I don't recall the campaign promising anything about prosecutions or war crimes tribunals. There's always been a strong, undercurrent theme of reconciliation in Obama's rhetoric. On balance, I'm satisfied with reconciliation playing a part in future governance, but as someone who's long been convinced that the nation was dragged into a moral cesspool by men like David Addington and John Yoo, I'll admit it's a bitter pill.

Lithwick is more bullish on the choice of Eric Holder as Attorney General. "He's been a lifer at Justice, he really cares about the Department. I think it broke his heart, what happened to the Department under Alberto Gonzales, and I have the sense that he's going to fight the good fight."

Comments

[ReasonIsMyReligion]

I love that all the "forgive and forget" crowd seems not to have drawn the same lessons as I did from Ford closing the door -- prematurely -- on Nixon.

A message must be sent to future despots.

[TheIndependenceParty]

Yep, ... thanks RIMR. Nixon skated on the ice that Gerry Ford gave him for anything and everything he might have done. Same gang, worse crimes by far. The young kids don't understand that these men have been going after total control of this nation for decades.

Bush's Grandfather was a collaborator in an attempted coup in the 30's against FDR. "Smoothing the covers" got us nothing but Nixon, Reagan, Bush, ... and more Bush.

We have a rule at our place, ... If the snakes are slithering away from our house, we let them live. If the snakes are headed for our house, ... We take off their heads. This brood has been slithering toward our house for almost 100 years.

[OldKnute]

You are Both Right.

I remember the Nixon Pardon too. I was in the Orient at the time. The Papers there read,, We will now see American Democracy at its finest,,, how it works,,, why it works,,, why we should all try to be more like America.

THEN, Ford pardoned Nixon.

It was like the world crawled back into their caves of hopelessness. Disillusioned quiet,, the streets were even silent,,, people didn’t talk for weeks,, no mention of the Nixon Pardon after the initial shock of those events. It was like a cloud fell over a spring day sudden a chill came to everything, a shadow fell over our collective optimism.

I remember.

All the best

Knute

[ReasonIsMyReligion]

Put Bush in the infamous standing-o­n-a-box-wh­ile-wired pose and ask me again.

[OldKnute]

You know what???

LOOK,, You kids are much better with Computer Technologies.

Now listen,,,,

We know that the potential of bringing Unity to nearly any endeavor,,, has been,,, is being,,, well demonstrated using the Internet. We watched this HUGE potential for GOOD and Change,,,, play out over the last many months.

Considering the HUGE,,, HUGE,,,, mess we are in,,, how can the power of the Internet be brought to bear,, JUST for Information,,, ONLY.

Would it be a Governmental Website?
A Coalition of Independent Sites?
A United Nations type of thing?
Justice Department?
World Court like sponsorship?

It would have to be PURE as driven SNOW! Above reproach! Non-Partisan! Facts and nothing but the Facts. Open discussions too and human to human interaction. No Egos, No fluff. Total Integrity. More so then Wikapedia-Like, only ROCK solid!

Just Business.

Is that Possible???? Is there a way?

Just wondering.

All the best

Knute

[Yermammy]

I think so Knute! (if you keep spacing your stuff out like that, tho, I'm afraid this thread will be 10,000 pages long). All the best!

[OldKnute]

Hehehe!

Bad habit! Oh man,, Sorry. You are right. (Blushing)

All the best,,, Knute

[rjmiller]

You can't have reconciliation without truth. Is it really so hard to hire a dozen people to run an investigation? On a government salary, the cost would be moot.

Note: government salary, not insane $300/hr private attorney salary

[OldKnute]

Yes,, RJ,

I was thinking in a foggy way,,, A nelson Mandela sort of thing too.

TRUTH,, and reconciliation!

Underline TRUTH!

Not sure,,

All the best

Knute

[ElBruce]

Dealing with these crimes honorably would CREATE political capital for Obama. The world has been waiting for somebody to say "the United States will stop doing bad things as of now." No President has said that since the fall of the U.S.S.R, and therefore we keep finding ourselves in a cycle of doing bad things. In order to stop this rampant train of hypocrisy, we have to actually decry the bad things we've already done. Until we do that, we have no credibility whatsoever.

[ReasonIsMyReligion]

Amen.
Only seven weeks left to impeach.

[Yermammy]

Andrew Johnson was impeached in THREE DAYS. They can be impeached afterwards but by then the pardons would be in effect. Merely STARTING the proceedings STOPS the pardons. We can do this, but it's going to take effort. And ElBruce is SOOOO right. This indeed would CREATE political capitol! EXACTLY. We could be PROUD Americans once more!

[Mike4Obama]

I'm not so sure I'm a big fan of the witch hunt right off the bat. I'd say lets get some of the big policy issues passed first.

[ReasonIsMyReligion]

What hunt? Bush and Cheney are still circling on their brooms.

[TheIndependenceParty]

The world has been waiting for years to see us bring these men to justice. More delay raises the specter of collusion.

For you and I a history of crimes becomes our rap sheet. For politicians who escape without punishment, the crimes become precedents for their successors.

[Yermammy]

UUuuummmmm­m...... no.

[ChrisCann]

I really am going to lose it... since the thursday after the election maddow was dome a complete 180. she has been anti obama. going after him for everything. Just like this clip. the guy is not even in office yet and really has no offical power. secondly it easy for her to say go after the war crimes. she makes a ton of money and is not hurting the way some of us are. the main thing in the country right now is getting the economy back on track. For anyone to say that is not the most important thing then they need to get their head out of their A$$. there will be enough time and enough people who will go after Bush and he buddies. I really wish people would give the guy a chance to be sworn in before they start going after him...

[LemonMeringue]

Important, I think, to dog this new administration and keep them on their toes. A lot of pressures are coming in from a lot of different directions and I think the people need to make sure their concerns are heard.

Lots of us worked very hard to get this man elected. We expect him to remember why we did it - even when corporations and the current administration are putting pressure on him to forget.

The worst thing would be to just say, good enough, he's elected - and check in 4 years from now.

[Yermammy]

EXACTLY! Why SHOULDN'T the people that got him elected ask he support the Rule of Law? Hell, even if I DIDN'T vote for him, I'd feel the same way!

[C IH8U2]

That's what I've been saying for the last few weeks. I'm like, WTF, you know. Leave the man alone and wait till he's at least in office to start bytchin'. GEEEEssssh­hhhhh!!!!!
People just need something to complain about in order to make their life seem important and have meaning. What a bunch of losers.

[MathIsTruth]

I think everyone agrees that the economy is a huge issue and that it is currently causing a lot of people like you a lot of hurt. But don't forget that war crimes aren't minor little crimes. War crimes cause immense amounts of human suffering, death and indignity. War crimes are the opposite of what makes human beings civilized.

For many of us, responding to the atrocities of the Bush administration is really key to restoring the "soul" of our country.

Rachel Maddow, more than anything, believes in a set of principles, as opposed to having some sort of blind loyalty to any individual. I believe that she is still a huge Obama supporter, but also that she holds him to high standards. All of which I support.

[RevSpaminator]

I think we all need to be patient for what we see happen after Jan 20th. Then we need to apply the pressure. Right now, if we scare Bush we will hear nothing but pardons from here until New Years and then nothing can be done.

[Yermammy]

Unless impeachment proceeding are underway and then the pardons are stop. Reading is fundamental. Try it sometime!

[RevSpaminator]

Yeah, lets talk about the probability of impeachment actually happening. Mathematics are also fundamental. Try it sometime!

[jamie461]

We have more urgent problems than war crimes tribunals at this point. We need to focus on getting our nation back on sound economic footing. Bringing charges of war crimes and all of that will just raise the partisan and ideological divides again, at a time when we can least afford it. Yes, I am (and have been for a LONG time) distressed over this country's abandonment of its principles since 9/11, including the use of torture. However, this is not the time to exact revenge.

[Bustinurbal]

Well let's see, continuation of all foreign policies of bush, continuation of economic bail out proposed by bush, ignoring the death of hundreds of thousands innocent Iraqis and Afghanis and torture and maiming of thousands more, now someone tell me what is the difference between this puppet and the last one?

more pressing issue they say, like what? Bailing out some outdated, outmoded, archaic economical model "capitalism" that has never worked and has been supported and prolonged by countless wars for the past century. Screw all of you that rather see a turtle's habitat reclaimed than prevent the death and destruction of millions of innocent people and countless countries that have never sent a soldier to fight on the soils of this country.

Obama , Bush, Clinton, ... they all are chosen pawns and have always done the deed of the zionistas!
Get real, the whole fuc*ing world is falling apart, this economic meltdown is the end of capitalism and nothing can save it, but it will not go away quietly, half of the world will be wiped out before this corrupted system vanishes and you all are worried about is not being able to borrow more money to buy sh*t that you don't need and never give an iota of concerns as what price the less privileged around the world have to pay for your insatiable thirst for materialistic gratifications.

[Yermammy]

"Get real, the whole fuc*ing world is falling apart, this economic meltdown is the end of capitalism and nothing can save it, but it will not go away quietly, half of the world will be wiped out before this corrupted system vanishes and you all are worried about is not being able to borrow more money to buy sh*t that you don't need and never give an iota of concerns as what price the less privileged around the world have to pay for your insatiable thirst for materialistic gratificat­ions."
I could kiss you! :) Right on.

[harriscrl3]

I like Rachel I do but I think some facts need to put to people so they grasp reality. Obama is already the President defacto because if he didnt assume the role the economy would be tanking. Obama said on 60 minutes that there are so many problems that its a struggle to even know which one to tackle first. He goes into his transition office barely comes out for 3 weeks straight.. Paulson looksl ike he has aged 20 years in the last couple of weeks. Obama couldnt even take a vacation he had to rush out his new team quickly. There are a lot of stuff that he wants to do but I dont have any illusion that he is going to be able to do them. Just getting this economy growing again will be a miracle at this point. They are a lot of pressing problems that needs to be address and this is merely one on a long long long list.

Carol

[Yermammy]

This isn't a "want". This is a REQUIREMENT. It's our duty to see this through, with or WITHOUT President elect Obama's consent or will to do anything about it. When we DO get them prosecuted, how is that going to look for Obama, if he didn't support it? NOT GOOD. Not good at all.

[111]

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/11/hbc-90003867

"AP reports that two unnamed Obama advisors have stated that there will be no war crimes investigations or prosecutions relating to the Bush Administration’s torture policies."

and
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2008/11/obama_advisers_no_charges_like.php

Obama has committed to reviewing interrogations on al-Qaida and other terror suspects. After he takes office in January, Obama is expected to create a panel modeled after the 9/11 Commission to study interrogations, including those using waterboarding and other tactics that critics call torture. The panel's findings would be used to ensure that future interrogations are undisputedly legal.

that will be a waste of time and money and is pure BS but I guess he can't out and out say that no, he won't be doing anything to the criminals in our government.

Look at who is in administration anyway -

John Brennan - has a completely ambiguous record on the torture issue, depending on whether he speaks from the agency, as a commentator or on behalf of President-Elect Obama. Remember he defended the use of rendition and torture for several years.

Not to mention the fact that Nancy Pelosi has admitted to knowing about the rendition black sites and "harsh" interrogation techniques being put to use.

Obama may stop torturing prisoners but he will protect everyone involved in past torture for sure.

[LemonMeringue]

Not the changed I worked so hard for.

I hope Obama lives up to our hopes.

[Yermammy]

Me too Lemon. Me too. But regardless of what he does, this WILL continue.

[dhertzfe]

Excuse me Dahlia !!!! There is a ton of appetite to see bushie and his cronies brought to justice. This can NEVER be allowed to happen ever again. America must be brought to reality that any attempt to destroy our constitution or put themselves above the law will pay the price.

[Sybil Lincoln]

That reality is probably unattainable. What we have learned from the Bush years is that our Constitution is fragile and can be all too easily corrupted by a less than honorable administration. Until our populace has been educated to understand the value of the Bill of Rights, it will have very little value. And our educational system is just not up to the task. We The People let this happen.
When did the No War in Iraq March on Washington occur? When did the Stop the Torture March on Washington occur? I missed those things, but I'm sure they must have taken place.

[marthlois]

Yep, Obama has been home in Chicago sitting on his hands doing nothing! Don't you think you're just a wee bit early on this call? You're just plunking yourself in the same group with the "Obama's recession and what a fine mess of his that he's trying to get us out of" pundits. Now you're throwing this stuff around? I was very surprised and disappointed by this segment on Rachel's show.

[44on1600]

Right now, the economy is the problem... We can deal with prosecuting Bushies later....

[zepfan81]

Are we really going to spend the next four years seeking retribution on the Bush Administration? Isn't there more important stuff to do? We don't need to judge him, being known as the worst President in history will be more than enough. Look at the guy!

[Balzac]

Hell no, it's not enough. No, there is not more important stuff to do.

I'm ready to forgive Bush, but only after the kids with no arms, the marines and soldiers with no faces, the mothers with no sons forgive Bush.

Regardless of emotional issues like questions as to what Bush deserves or whether or not he can be forgiven, objectively speaking, society is based on law and order. Bush must go on trial.

[OldKnute]

Balzac,,,

I agree,,,, AND I would add,,,, we need to LEARN from our mistakes. For this to even come CLOSE to happening,, the truth need be known.

I would not support these efforts simply for reasons of retribution. However,, to move forward,,, to even have a hope of continuity of Governance,,, America must learn the TRUTH.

Some would offer that to do this, would shake America to its’ roots,,,, then so be it! Not a cavalier statement, but what tree, no mater how broad or mighty can stand if its roots are diseased.

This must be done,, and by ALL Americans in a “united” effort,,, somehow.

Somehow.

Call me romantic,,, optimistic,, a fool,, if you may,,, but deep inside,, I think this effort should be led by the Republican Party. Not just BI-Partisan,,, but Pro-Partisan, PRO-American and PRO-Constitution.

Put me in the corner with the Dreamers,, but I just believe this deeply!

Somehow!

All the best

Knute

[jillsond]

That's right. He should be held accountable for his actions. It not only sends the message to our citizens, but to the world, that crime is not tolerated in the US. Especially crimes of this magnitude.

He can always pardon himself, after all. He can flat out admit to war crimes and pardon himself, even after he leaves office.