Battle Royale: Center-Right Versus Center-Left In the Democratic Party

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First Posted: 11-29-08 08:55 AM   |   Updated: 12-30-08 05:12 AM

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Battle Royale

As President-elect Obama prepares to take office, Democratic partisans are battling over a crucial issue: is the United States a "center-right" or "center-left" nation? If the country is in fact tilted to the right, then Obama risks reviving Republican prospects should his legislative initiatives be perceived as too liberal. Conversely, if the U.S is a center-left nation, the adoption of major public works programs, comprehensive health care, and aggressive tax and spending programs to reduce income- and wealth-inequality may help forge a durable majority for Obama and the Democratic Party.

Both sides have evidence to back up their case.

Advocates of the center-right thesis point to the way voters identify themselves, with the percentage saying that they are conservative - about 36-37% on average -- substantially larger than the 18-19% who say they are liberal. The following Pew Center chart graphs http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1042/winds-of-political-change-havent--shifted-publics-ideology-balance these trends over the past five presidential elections:

This argument is crucial to Republicans seeking to rebuild a severely weakened, ideologically conservative party. Michigan GOP chair Saulius "Saul" Anuzis, who is running to become Chairman of the Republican National Committee, flatly declares, "We are clearly a center right country," arguing that the GOP's defeats in 2006 and this year result not from a rejection of conservatism, but from the fact that "the Republican brand had gotten so bad and none of our politicians had the credibility to offer any 'change' message." Similarly, South Dakota Republican Senator John Thune, who is seeking to move up in the Senate leadership, contends, "We're still a center-right country....Democrats won those voters in the middle who ought to be part of our coalition."

The debate is, however, both more salient and more intense on the Democratic side of the aisle because, for the first time since November 1994, the party is in office and empowered to make policy. The center-right vs. center-left conflict is now a dispute over the range of politically tenable policy options open to Democrats -- whether party leaders are significantly constrained by a pull to the right, or whether Obama and Congressional Democrats are free to enact aggressively progressive programs and legislation.

One of the most outspoken advocates of the center-right view is Douglas Schoen, former partner of Hillary Clinton's senior political adviser Mark Penn. Writing in the New York Daily News, Schoen argues,"There is little appetite for a supersized Democratic agenda....Democrats must resist the temptation to take on symbolic issues that appeal to the left and divide the country. The failure of pro-gay marriage initiatives around the country should give pause to similar initiatives on the federal level, and the mixed results on affirmative action suggest how important it is for Obama to initiate social change on a class basis, rather than a racial basis."

In another article in the Financial Times, Schoen contends that President Clinton's first two years in office constitute "a clear warning that a centre-left coalition can fall apart quickly if the policies are seen as too far left. In 1993, Mr. Clinton raised taxes on the wealthy, adopted the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy in the military, proposed and lost universal healthcare and adopted gun safety measures, banning assault rifles. In just two years his ratings plummeted to 35 per cent favorable and 65 per cent said they would never vote for him again. The mid-term elections brought a stunning loss of both Houses and the emergence of Newt Gingrich's Contract for America."

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Schoen and his ideological allies have infuriated many in the progressive wing of the party. Schoen's adversaries argue, with their own polling data to back up their case, that there may be many more self-described American conservatives than liberals, but, when it comes to actual policies, the country is pretty liberal.

The Campaign for America's Future (CAF) has created a blog, "Center-Right Nation Watch," to counter those arguing that the country tilts to the right. The organization has also conducted its own analysis of poll data in a paper titled "The Progressive Majority: Why a Conservative America Is a Myth."

CAF co-director Robert Borosage, argues that a survey jointly conducted by his organization and Democracy Corps shows: "On issue after issue, moderates stand with liberals, not conservatives. This is a center-left nation. Republicans are not only an aging, monochromatic, regional minority party. They not only must now suffer the circular firing squad that follows defeat. They not only struggle to find a compelling leader or a relevant agenda. They swim against the tide. They are a largely conservative party in a center-left nation. Obama's mandate is clear. And they'd be well advised to get out of the way."

A close examination of the data suggests that the political and policy-making environment is more complex than either side acknowledges, and that thinking in terms of a left-right dichotomy may distort policy options.

First, looking at the history of ideological self-identification, the evidence is compelling that the decline of liberal self-identifiers correlated with the emergence of race as the dominant issue in the period from 1964 to 1968 -- an early reaction to the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, the Great Society programs directing resources toward disproportionately minority populations, and the urban riots -- including Harlem in 1964, Los Angeles' Watts in 1965, and Detroit in 1967.

Data collected by James Stimson, a well-regarded University of North Carolina political scientist, shows the precipitous drop during this brief period in the percentage of voters willing to say they were liberals.


While some have suggested that opposition to the Vietnam War provoked the decline in liberal identifiers, the decline reached its nadir in 1967, before the anti-war movement had taken off, as this more narrowly focused chart of Stimson's shows:

While liberal identification took a hit, the "liberalism of Roosevelt, Truman, and Kennedy" did not, according to data that Stimson provided to the Huffington Post. Support remained strong, and continues to remain strong "for programs that helped the working class of Americans....Social Security Unemployment compensation minimum wage, and so forth." The problem for the Democratic Party, according to Stimson, was that "[b]eginning with Lyndon Johnson, liberalism comes to mean support for the 'underclass.' It asks the majority of voters to sacrifice their self-interest for the good of others."

Although support for federal spending on health, education, Social Security and the environment remains strong, that does not mean proponents of these policies will not face voter opposition.

Stanley Greenberg, whose firm conducted the CAF-Democracy Corps post-election poll, writes, "On virtually every dimension of the liberal-conservatism debate, voters have moved to a new place. They show a new openness for the country to use government for a range of public purposes: restoring taxes on the wealthiest and corporations to bring sustained relief for the middle class and regulate corporate excess to protect the public."

At the same time, Greenberg warns, "voters remain cautious about government spending and taxes after eight years of bloated spending, deficits, corruption, incompetence and special-interest rule. Thus, they divide evenly on worries we won't invest enough versus we will overspend and raise taxes, and whether we should move boldly or step-by-step to achieve health care reform."

There were specific questions in the Democracy Corps survey which elicited answers suggesting that the new Democratic administration needs to be attentive to voter sentiment. Voters were asked, "Now, I am going to read you a list of words and phrases which people use to describe political figures. For each word or phrase, please tell me whether it describes Barack Obama very well, well, not too well, or not well at all." By a margin of 50-48, Democracy Corps found, a bare majority of voters described Obama as "too liberal." Asked if Obama "will raise my taxes," after he campaigned on a pledge that he would cut taxes for 95 percent of families, 47 percent said he would raise their taxes, and 52 percent said he would not.

Along similar lines, the Pew Center found that a strong majority, 57 percent, of Democratic voters want Obama to govern as a moderate, compared to 33 percent who want him to govern as a liberal. The question was not asked of independent and Republican voters, who almost certainly would have expressed a strong preference for moderate policies.

Stimson contends that although the American electorate is "symbolically" conservative it is "operationally" liberal. This does not mean, however, that symbolic conservatism has no substantive meaning in terms of voters' choices.

Throughout 2008, the Obama campaign carefully avoided or muted discussion of such volatile issues as affirmative action and redistributive 'transfer' programs for the poor, while stressing repeatedly that the overwhelming majority of people would see their taxes cut, not raised.

During the weeks immediately following his election, the fledgling Obama administration is signaling a concern with the dangers of reviving the anger and resentment which underpinned the past four decades of 'symbolic conservatism.' In the process, Obama has infuriated some of his early supporters.

Many on the liberal wing of the Democratic Party are now voicing concerns over the centrist pattern of Obama's key appointments - Rahm Emanuel as chief of staff; an economic team lead by Tim Geithner, Larry Summers, and Paul Volker; the expected selection of Hillary Clinton at State; Robert Gates to continue at the Pentagon; and retired Marine General Jim Jones as National Security Adviser.

The blogosphere is particularly sensitive to the potential sidelining of the left, after having provided invaluable help in putting Obama over the top. The Internet and the blogosphere were "enormously important for getting the message out, raising money and mobilizing voters. Those are the three things -- message, money and mobilization -- that the Obama team saw and executed on brilliantly," David Gergen told Rolling Stone. Democratic pollster Peter Hart noted that 2008 "is the first modern election where technology enabled supporters to play a direct role in the campaign. It's the first election where citizen media dominated the dialogue."

Thus dissent from newly empowered, progressive 'citizen journalists" and bloggers represents a potential dilemma for the Obama administration. "Not a single, solitary, actual dyed-in-the-wool progressive has, as far as I can tell, even been mentioned for a position in the new administration. Not one," lamented Christopher Hayes in a column entitled "Left Out" at The Nation.

Chris Bowers at Open Left writes: "I feel incredibly frustrated. Even after two landslide elections in a row, are our only governing options as a nation either all right-wing Republicans, or a centrist mixture of Democrats and Republicans?...We are being entirely left out of Obama's major appointments so far."

Obama and his advisers appear to be acutely aware of the failure of the American progressive movement to push the direction of government in a significantly redistributive direction since the administration of Lyndon Johnson (1963-1968) forty years ago, and of the disdain in which Johnson has been widely held since -- despite Johnson's stunning progressive legislative record -- the two major Civil Rights Acts, Medicare, Medicaid, and the War on Poverty. (For more on Johnson's record see Jim Jaffe.)

For those in the administration whose personal memories do not go back to the 1960s, there are bitter recollection of how quickly popular support for Bill Clinton nosedived within months of his taking office in 1993. A New York Times/CBS News survey released just before Clinton's inauguration showed huge majorities in his camp: 70 percent said they were optimistic 'about the next four years with Bill Clinton,' 75 percent were convinced Clinton cared "about the needs and problems" of people like themselves, and a similarly lopsided majority believed Clinton was equipped to deal with the most pressing problems facing the nation.

Five months later, Clinton's popularity had imploded. A May 1993 CBS News poll found that Clinton's unfavorable rating, 49 percent, ran far ahead of his favorable rating of 37 percent. Clinton paid a huge price for his mishandling of the 'gays in the military' issue; his fumbled search for "a Cabinet that looks like America;" his failure to win approval of a $16.2 billion economic stimulus bill; the poor reception to the handling of his health care proposal; an anti-crime bill directing federal funds to midnight basketball; and his inability to get a single Republican to vote for his 1993 budget.

So far during the transition, Obama appears determined not to replicate Clinton's early problems. Instead, for every major appointment, Obama has selected an experienced, well-known figure.

If the stock market is any indicator, the reaction has been consistently favorable since Obama announced the selection of Geithner and Summers on November 24. Obama's expected pick of Gates even won a note of praise from the dyed-in-the-wool conservative Wall Street Journal editorial page: "So far on security, not bad."

While Gates and other appointments may temporarily smooth troubled waters on the right, they do not assuage the Democratic left, whose crucial role in the early stages of Obama's bid is likely to give them a hearing.

In the meantime, the President-elect is getting some surprising support from one of the most outspoken members of the Democratic Party's progressive wing, columnist-blogger David Sirota, normally first out of the box in criticizing any party members who trend right.

Describing Obama's appointments as potentially brilliant, Sirota wrote that "his initial moves suggest a president who hired ideological free-market conservatives, and who will order them to push ideologically progressive policies - all under the mantra of 'pragmatism.'....Obama - in a very pragmatic way - seems to have determined that the practical thing to do is pass progressive legislation, and that the most practical way to do that is to have that legislation carried by free-marketeers whose conservatism gets them painted by pundits as 'pragmatists'."

Sirota is not fully confident of this analysis, however, noting that Obama may be up to something very different, "an attempt to sell policies crafted by conservatives with a marketing team made up of progressives - I don't think it is, but we can't be totally sure just yet."

In fact, many of the "centrist" economic advisers Obama has chosen have, in recent years, moved to the left, developing more concern for displaced workers who bear the costs of free trade agreements; and, more importantly, demonstrating a growing commitment to lessen the trend toward greater income and wealth inequality.

Summers, once demonized by some in the left-progressive wing of the Democratic Party, has begun to call for government policies to correct the transfer he identifies as beginning in 1979 of some $664 billion, or $600,000 per family, to the top 1 percent of the income distribution, at the expense of the bottom 80 percent, whose family incomes, Summers argues, are on average $7,000 below what they would have been had income gains been distributed equally to each percentile.

While Obama and his team must thread a path between the conflicting ideals of the moderate or 'vital' center and the 'new left' - if that phrase can be revived -- nothing has the potential to give wings to the liberal/progressive alliance more than the impoverishment of the middle and working classes - a distinct possibility as the economic meltdown unfolds.

As President-elect Obama prepares to take office, Democratic partisans are battling over a crucial issue: is the United States a "center-right" or "center-left" nation? If the country is in fact tilte...
As President-elect Obama prepares to take office, Democratic partisans are battling over a crucial issue: is the United States a "center-right" or "center-left" nation? If the country is in fact tilte...
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Edsall's summation of Summers' analysis is quite similar to the provocative analysis provided by former Nixon strategist Kevin Phillips in his book "Wealth and Democracy," which should be required reading for any citizen concerned about the yawning gap in income and wealth inequalities which developed in the final two decades of the 20th Century, and which has proceeded apace into the first decade of the 21st Century. Phillips' analysis lays bare how government policies post-1980 contributed to the deindustrialization of the U.S. and to the growth in wealth for the top ten percent of the population, particulary the top one percent at the expense largely of the three middle quinitiles of the nation's income/wealth distribution.

A major problem for the U.S. economy is that it is essentially no longer a manufacturing-based economy providing decent-paying jobs for the bulk of the working population. Instead, the government has contributed to the development of a service-based economy featuring a large proportion of low-paying jobs. Too many American workers have been relegated to spending their work hours shuffling paper rather than building things, and as a result their incomes are lower and the American economy is far less healthy than it was during the 1950s and 1960s..

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:35 AM on 12/01/2008
- bubbuh I'm a Fan of bubbuh 130 fans permalink
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I'm center tangent.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:38 AM on 11/30/2008
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If the USA is a center-right nation, that's all the more reason to change it,

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:41 PM on 11/29/2008
- Trolmaster I'm a Fan of Trolmaster 8 fans permalink

One thing missing in this debate is that the Republican party is not conservative.

A conservative stands for small government, fiscal responsibility, and personal responsibility. The GOP is none of this.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:27 PM on 11/29/2008

Pretty much.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:06 AM on 11/30/2008
- evekendall I'm a Fan of evekendall 127 fans permalink
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Excellent comment.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:18 AM on 11/30/2008
- juangault I'm a Fan of juangault 3 fans permalink

The "Gang Of Pirates" sold out to those who provided them with the best ships, to take and loot the other ships. They've lost their moral compass. Power for power's sake. Janis Joplin would sum it up with "get it while you can". Both parties could splinter up. Some Republicans could represent the rich and greedy, another part the small govt. group, another to the religious right. I could see Ron Paul getting a good following with a new money model for the country. The Democrats could balkanize into a party for the dependent, another for the working class, and yet another for liberal idealism. Imagine all the parties based on race, sex, ethnicity, or religion. This actually could work if we had a parliamentary style government. If we had a prime minister instead of a fixed term president, I think it would add flexibility to the steering of the nation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:52 AM on 11/30/2008
- TrueSense I'm a Fan of TrueSense 11 fans permalink

There are usually 2 other branhces to them, the liberterian streak. Most used to want to ensure government observe rights and did not have too much power in the exectuive. They are not pure libertarians, but you can see the streak. Unfortunately, the dominate branch has become the other one. The uber executive and an instrusive government in the name of "security".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:42 AM on 11/30/2008
- Melkor I'm a Fan of Melkor 16 fans permalink

As Paul Krugman has said, as Rick Perlstein mapped out in Nixonland - its all about race and framing. Of course most Americans would want things like universal healthcare, social security and welfare. Socialist programmes have been a major part of American since FDR's presidency.

But when you frame it as giving tax dollars to or making social programmes that help an "other", people rise up against it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:37 PM on 11/29/2008
- rf-hawaii I'm a Fan of rf-hawaii 20 fans permalink

Republicans are still trying to "win" this election. Their propaganda hopes to have us working against our own best interests, again.

Yells and screams to the contrary, this has long been a liberal nation -- even as the Republicans have made that a dirty word. We've had a little too much of the extremist-right recently. They blew it. Now even the most disinterested of us is getting the message.

America wants it's democracy back. We want the majority to matter again. The 95% of the country called the middle class. Government of, by, and for the people. That means all the people. Especially the majority. Rich people and corporations do not get to run the place!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:37 PM on 11/29/2008
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The US a Liberal Nation?!!!! HAHAHAHAH, not even close

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:56 PM on 11/29/2008
- Trolmaster I'm a Fan of Trolmaster 8 fans permalink

How do you explain the last 2 elections where America voted out right wingers in droves?

Your kind are in major denial, just like you are about tax cuts for the rich are health for the economy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:13 PM on 11/29/2008

I hope it goes so far left that it breaks the needle.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:16 PM on 11/29/2008

Actually, it has nothing to do with left and right. Its about about finding humane and smart solutions to our problems. If that means go left, then I hope it goes left. It would be nice to see an administration that puts the needs of ordinary people abover the super-wealthy for a change.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:31 PM on 11/29/2008
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Well, you have finally put in perspective. Finding humane and smart solutions is definitely the way to go.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:57 PM on 11/29/2008

Or we could just focus on the fact that our nation is centered. Who cares if it's a little to the left or a little to the right.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:00 PM on 11/29/2008
- iwantpie I'm a Fan of iwantpie 7 fans permalink

Agree

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:47 PM on 11/29/2008
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Thank you

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:58 PM on 11/29/2008
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bill kristol will

tell us where the right

left and center are

heh...

http://mysite.verizon.net/springhead1/index.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:55 PM on 11/29/2008
- jsarets I'm a Fan of jsarets 167 fans permalink

America isn't conservative, we just like to think of ourselves as such. "Conservative" is the best brand in the history of American politics.

And a large chunk of America is economically liberal but culturally reactionary, and they largely vote their bigotry instead of voting their pocket book.

Self-described liberals tend to think that government should tell people how to live their lives. Self-described conservatives tend to think that government should tell people how NOT to live their lives.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:46 PM on 11/29/2008
- rf-hawaii I'm a Fan of rf-hawaii 20 fans permalink

Most of us wish we were conservative (rich.) But we love others and our world as liberals.
We are not a selfish (conservative) people.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 PM on 11/29/2008
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Here we go again with the narratives. Not all conservative are selfish.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:59 PM on 11/29/2008
- juangault I'm a Fan of juangault 3 fans permalink

Selfishness, greed, power over others, are forces that seem to be overwhelming to the people who acquire them. And as they get some, they want even more, and it can happen to anyone. (Twin Peaks, Robert Frost, David Lynch) I think of it like gravity. The most gravity in the universe causes the physical representation of substance to revert to nothingness. The "black holes" at the center of galaxies are theorized to have no physical size, just immense power. Let the energy of "fusion" love, shine through the clouds of life sustaining rain. When it's all in balance, time can work miracles.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:20 AM on 11/30/2008

When you say liberals tend to think government should tell people how to live their lives, you are not speaking of social issues. Liberals tend to think govt should stay out of peoples private lives, but that's where conservatives think there should be all sorts of laws telling you what you can and cannot do.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:58 PM on 11/29/2008
- Horus45 I'm a Fan of Horus45 33 fans permalink
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You have no idea what a real liberal is, your mind has been poisoned by the right.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:55 AM on 11/30/2008
- rosal I'm a Fan of rosal 317 fans permalink
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Left, right? As long as the people have a job, safety, a house, peace, and are able to provide for the family's needs, people don't care what others call themselves. So what is the score for Repbs and Dems on providing for the country's needs?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:54 PM on 11/29/2008
- dhinds I'm a Fan of dhinds 26 fans permalink

The repubs don't provide for the county's needds.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:09 PM on 11/29/2008
- rf-hawaii I'm a Fan of rf-hawaii 20 fans permalink

Republicans are hoarders. They believe there's not enough resources to go around.

When they govern they tend to make it true, through their hoarding and waste.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 PM on 11/29/2008
- dizmo4 I'm a Fan of dizmo4 49 fans permalink

Its funny that all the debate centers around center-left vs center-right or progressive vs conservative and no one seems to take the time to really determine whether an issue is actually conservative, liberal, centrist, etc.

In the political world's race to categorize everything; issues that really are quite universal such as health care reform or renewable energy have become "liberal" or "progressive" policies. Is opposing the Iraq war a liberal/progressive position? Does that then mean that Newt Gingrich, Ron Paul , Pat Buchannan are suddenly bastions of progressive thought?

People need to stop attempting to classify everything and focus more on its effectiveness.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:49 PM on 11/29/2008
- dhinds I'm a Fan of dhinds 26 fans permalink

Most Democratic legislators opposed giving W the powers he needed to invade Iraq. (Check Wikipedia for the list of that voted against it). On the Republican side, Paul was the exception.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:13 PM on 11/29/2008

Left and right wing political descriptors are simply constructs designed by propagandists and lazy thinkers to persuade the voter to place himself in one category or the other, or somehow in between. The issues are too varied and diverse to fit in one continuium from a right to left or left to right analysis.
It is true that many policy gurus in and out of government see things in simplistic terms. Therefore, limited government is the sole goal for some and national ownership of monopolies is the sole end for some who yearn for economic justice. Small sects wish for the inclusion of religion in our governance. Still others wish for legal control of personal morals.
What most Americans desire is open, honest government that has as its committment the Preamble to our sacred Constituti­on..."esta­blish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote trhe general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty...­" to ourselves and our posterity. The Administration that can provide impetus to further this mission is a successful administration, though a large minority may be dispossessed with specific policies in addressing these goals of a competently managed organization.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:46 PM on 11/29/2008
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In my best attempt to be spiritual on a Sunday morning, I won't condemn Mr. Edsall too much, but you are absolutely correct. Pundits (and I much prefer your word "propagandists") by and large just seem to regurgitate last century's talking points on political discourse. Quite frankly, I found Mr. Edsall's entire piece of very little value and no insight.

To be contructive, writers (whether they be paid or like us, just simple folk talking 's'it') should and need to find new, creative ways to discuss what's going on now and for the next generation. We are taking an 'evolutionary' leap in politics and hopefully 'leadership' in general, with us citizens coming along for the ride. "Enlightened" is a little overused, but applies to the type of 'non-partisan' philosophy that I think many hunger for in their leaders and government. Don't just tackly issues or 'crises' one by one, but look out 50 years, maybe 100, and put a puzzle together that has a chance of working today and for the next century.

Can't we just call that "smart, creative and inclusive" without the left/right baggage that serves no purpose.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:45 AM on 11/30/2008

pathetic trivial drival we have not had a president since nov 63 im so hopefull this man makes right so we as apeople can apologise for our ignorance and complicity in the longest persistant attack on the conscience of good and desent people this is not the time to get all special we are not a little left a little right democrats we are racists and homos blacks and whites red necks and hippys come o9n u dummies do u know what is going on here mr spitzer paid a big price for doing the right thing if u are what u say u are or just happy its ur turn at the trough

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:08 PM on 11/29/2008
- Bitsko I'm a Fan of Bitsko 522 fans permalink
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A way a lone a last a loved a long the riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.

But I see your point about living in a democracy.­.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:12 PM on 11/29/2008
- dhinds I'm a Fan of dhinds 26 fans permalink

Kwazimota: You could use a spell checker but you're on the right track.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:22 PM on 11/29/2008
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Did we finally rid ourselves of the CLAPP?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:05 PM on 11/29/2008
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