Franken Camp: We're Down 73 Votes, May Pursue Legal Action

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First Posted: 12- 1-08 03:04 PM   |   Updated: 01- 1-09 05:12 AM

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The Minnesota Senate recount is getting incredibly tight. According to officials from the Al Franken campaign, the margin separating the Democratic challenger and Sen. Norm Coleman is now down to 73 votes out of approximately 2.9 million cast.

Several weeks into the recount, 88.6% of the ballots have been counted, a slight majority of which came from Coleman supporters. As noted by Franken campaign lawyer Marc Elias, in the counties whose ballots have been counted, Al Franken won 49.6% of the vote on Election Day. In the counties who have not finished counting, Al Franken won 52.8% of the vote on Election Day.

The number is not based on the Secretary of State website or other sources (where the difference is listed at more than 250) but rather the findings of neutral election observers who are on the ground in state counties. In these counts, it should be noted, Coleman has challenged more ballots -- accounting for the larger deficit that Franken faces in the official count.

Even with the narrowing margin, there may not be enough room for Franken to take a lead. That's because, as the Franken camp has argued, the state has declined to publicize rejected absentee ballots. Elias, while claiming that the majority of these 12,000 ballots were rightly thrown out, estimated that "as many as 1,000," could end up being legitimate votes that were wrongfully uncounted.

On a conference call with reporters, Elias said the campaign would now "pursue all other avenues open to us," in regards to making these absentee ballots public, "including legal action." He even noted (as has been recently reported) that the United States Senate could take up the issue, a development that the Coleman campaign has called "troubling."

"If ultimately there is no remedy before the canvassing boards and before the courts, that ultimately remains an option," said Elias.

Also on the call, the Franken camp, as it has done for the past two weeks, raised concerns over missing ballots, a problematic development which has been reported in several counties. Elias called on counties to redouble their efforts to ensure that every vote that was cast would end up counted.

"[The final number] simply cannot be relevant if it does not include the total number of the votes cast," he said.

Without making progress in the missing ballot and absentee ballot field, the Franken campaign stands a much longer shot of passing Coleman. But the numbers -- if their math is to be believed -- should tighten even further. The campaign provided two other data points that show a blue-tilt to the remaining recount.

In Hennepin County. there are over 74,000 ballots yet to be counted. Among the ballots yet to be counted, Al Franken got 79.2% of the two-way vote on Election Day.

In Ramsey County, there are over 43,000 ballots yet to be counted. Among the ballots yet to be counted, Al Franken got 51.7% of the two-way vote on Election Day.

The Minnesota Senate recount is getting incredibly tight. According to officials from the Al Franken campaign, the margin separating the Democratic challenger and Sen. Norm Coleman is now down to 73 v...
The Minnesota Senate recount is getting incredibly tight. According to officials from the Al Franken campaign, the margin separating the Democratic challenger and Sen. Norm Coleman is now down to 73 v...
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The problem is hardwired into the system of counting we use. At such large numbers the difference becomes meaningless. It is almost impossible to get an exact count. Alas.
For better insight look up basic voting theory concepts: Condorcet theorem, recursive and extended plurality with elimination. Especially helpful would be the dreaded Borda Count System.

Still I wish Franken would win.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:08 PM on 12/01/2008

Much as I hate it, it looks like ti's over and Franken lost. Rather than doing a repub and continuing to fight the election results until they just give it to you, Al would be better served by coming back and trying again.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:08 PM on 12/01/2008

Um. NO. Force them to count all votes and to justify not counting any that they don't count.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:15 AM on 12/02/2008

Yea don't forget the demtwits keep making up. Pulling them out of their asses.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:00 AM on 12/02/2008
- meemu I'm a Fan of meemu 6 fans permalink
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Agreed--count every single vote. No matter who wins. Just giving in is no help to our country in the long run, as it encourages people to fiddle around with votes, "losing a few thousand" just here and there......people in charge of vote ballots, who "lose" them or "misplace" them, should be prosecuted, then perhaps they'd take things a little more seriously!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:35 AM on 12/02/2008

WTF?
If there are only 88.6% of the votes counted, that leaves 300,000 left to count. If Al wins 50.1% of those, the margin will be +600 for AL and he wins by around 400 votes.

What am I missing?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 PM on 12/01/2008
- Pearlman I'm a Fan of Pearlman 3 fans permalink

Nothing is going to change the actual votes. The original election is assumed to be an accurate measure, with an assumed error rate. As you get closer to finishing the recount, as say 88.6%, your assumed error has to diminish also.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:03 PM on 12/01/2008
- nellie I'm a Fan of nellie 502 fans permalink
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We're looking for votes that were not counted properly the first time. Chances are there are more ballots with errors favoring Franken in Democratic precincts because there are more Democratic ballots. Just as Republican districts would likely add to Coleman's count.

I think Al may squeak through. But if 528Nate is right about the 27 vote lead—even if he was joking—I am going to freak out.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:24 PM on 12/01/2008
- SammyGone I'm a Fan of SammyGone 5 fans permalink

You tax dollars at work.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:36 PM on 12/01/2008
- nellie I'm a Fan of nellie 502 fans permalink
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Better than going to Blackwater.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:18 PM on 12/01/2008
- doctorwang I'm a Fan of doctorwang 193 fans permalink
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Do you live in Minnesota? If not, you're not paying a dime.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:20 PM on 12/01/2008
- Grunty1 I'm a Fan of Grunty1 227 fans permalink

Yup. And I cannot think of a better use for my tax dollars than a clean election that throws out Norm "the LapDog" Coleman.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:54 PM on 12/01/2008
- ohiomark I'm a Fan of ohiomark 123 fans permalink

Franken is just another in a long line of liberals who run to the court when they don't get what they want at the ballot box.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:36 PM on 12/01/2008
- mill I'm a Fan of mill permalink

liberals like Mr GW Bush back in 2000, eh?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:44 PM on 12/01/2008
- ohiomark I'm a Fan of ohiomark 123 fans permalink

Gore was the one who took Bush to court in 2000.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 PM on 12/01/2008
- 82nd I'm a Fan of 82nd permalink

It was Gore who contested the results in 2000. Liberals like to rewrite history also.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:52 PM on 12/01/2008

Once again, the GOP obsession with "projection" rears it's ugly head.

Isn't it REQUIRED BY LAW in Minnesota to do a recount if the margins are that narrow?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:59 PM on 12/01/2008
- ohiomark I'm a Fan of ohiomark 123 fans permalink

They DID the recount already, Stuart Smalley still wants to go to court.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:55 AM on 12/02/2008
- nellie I'm a Fan of nellie 502 fans permalink
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HA HA HA.

Bush v Gore, genius. Bush v Gore.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:19 PM on 12/01/2008
- 82nd I'm a Fan of 82nd permalink

Goer and Lieberman v Harris, genius. Gore and Lieberman v Harris

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:43 PM on 12/01/2008
- SammyGone I'm a Fan of SammyGone 5 fans permalink

Franken is a bleep bleep-can't you just see the transcript of his senate speeches?
Franken is obscene, but his friend Reid, Pelosi, Frank and Dodd are welcoming him with open arms. Maybe he can keep them entertained.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:36 PM on 12/01/2008
- prunebush I'm a Fan of prunebush 5 fans permalink

Sure, some of his humor is embarrassingly silly and sophomoric, but he is a brilliant political mind. And if you weren't scared of how effective he'd be as a Democratic senator, you wouldn't be trolling our blogs.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:59 PM on 12/01/2008
- andvoodoo2 I'm a Fan of andvoodoo2 122 fans permalink
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At least he is a brilliant man who can actually speak. Then, on the opposite end of that spectrum, you have Dubya...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:17 PM on 12/01/2008
- doctorwang I'm a Fan of doctorwang 193 fans permalink
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I bet if B#sh asked, you'd pull his finger.....and then giggle like a schoolgirl afterwards.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:19 PM on 12/01/2008
- Grunty1 I'm a Fan of Grunty1 227 fans permalink

[Franken is a bleep bleep]

Pathetic excuse for a human being you are.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:55 PM on 12/01/2008
- cjgnew I'm a Fan of cjgnew 6 fans permalink

Judging by the way Mr. Schmidt handled Mr. McCain's campaign, I equate and rate his forecasting abilities no higher than your common street-corner fortuneteller. As to Mr. Jindal, he made a good impression on me. Unlike the opportunist Sarah Palin, who has absolutely no future on the national stage, Mr. Jindal came across as a potential leader in the future, but to say that he is definitely presidential material is a little bit presumptuous.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:28 PM on 12/01/2008

This is ridiculous. Once the separation between votes for candidates falls below 100 for an entire state, there should be a do-over election. There's simply no way to settle this fairly otherwise.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:25 PM on 12/01/2008
- Dolphyn I'm a Fan of Dolphyn 2 fans permalink

I agree. There should be a runoff election, especially since many of the original votes went to a third challenger. (I think it was ~15%.)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:35 PM on 12/01/2008
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I've always loved Al GO AL GO! all the way! wth is taking so long anyway?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:25 PM on 12/01/2008
- SammyGone I'm a Fan of SammyGone 5 fans permalink

Gotta find all those votes in the trunk and shoe boxes. Does the ink have to be dry?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:38 PM on 12/01/2008

The difference in votes is statistically non-existent. This is the problem straight out of election theory. Our voting system simple cannot handle this fine of the distinction in the vote. None could. In the end, it'll come down to who's got better lawyers and the political make up of the higher court it gets to.
Like it did in the case of Gore. We all wish Gore 've won, but Bush had a better legal team who was willing to play (very) hardball.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:22 PM on 12/01/2008
- condew I'm a Fan of condew 11 fans permalink

We would never tolerate an ATM that made errors of $1.40 on our bank accounts, so why do we tolerate voting equipment that makes errors on 140 votes in an election? Franken has already proven that the initial tally was off by at least 140 votes. That is unacceptable performance.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:30 PM on 12/01/2008

The problem is hardwired into the system of counting we use. At such large numbers the difference becomes meaningless. It is almost impossible to get an exact count. Alas.
For better insight look up basic voting theory concepts: Condorcet theorem, recursive and extended plurality with elimination. Especially helpful would be the dreaded Borda Count System.

Still I wish Franken would win.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:08 PM on 12/01/2008
- SparkyDash I'm a Fan of SparkyDash 50 fans permalink
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wow, can't wait for this campaign to be over...hang in there Al. Nate Silver said this is the way questionable ballots should be reviewed. A lot of emotions in this one. I wish Minnesotans(sp) the best.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:17 PM on 12/01/2008
- darrick72 I'm a Fan of darrick72 10 fans permalink
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Franken is going to make sure that every vote is counted and I love him for that. Give them hell Al!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:10 PM on 12/01/2008
- SammyD I'm a Fan of SammyD 11 fans permalink

just give it to Franken. This country is a joke so he'd fit in better.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:05 PM on 12/01/2008
- chaz I'm a Fan of chaz 15 fans permalink
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Sammy thanks for making me laugh.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:17 PM on 12/01/2008

Would someone tell me why intrade.com has Coleman's chance of winning at 80% if Franken's so close?

Intrade has a great track record of predicting winners. Maybe they're wrong this time, but I wouldn't bet against them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:57 PM on 12/01/2008
- HARVIN I'm a Fan of HARVIN 7 fans permalink

How do the guys in Vegas have it?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:00 PM on 12/01/2008
- dphilip I'm a Fan of dphilip 41 fans permalink

that they'll give Franken stage space and a nightly show at one the smaller hotel bars.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:16 PM on 12/01/2008
- doctorwang I'm a Fan of doctorwang 193 fans permalink
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5 to 1 that Coleman will end up doing Orbit chewing gum commercials.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:36 PM on 12/01/2008
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 415 fans permalink
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Franken is very tenacious. I wouldn't bet against him.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:08 PM on 12/01/2008

Why is it everytime there is a close vote democrats are trying to get recount after recount after recount until thye get the result they want? why not admit that it is damn close election and democrat had lost.

And please do not give me "all votes should be counted". You should have complained about the rules BEFORE the election results

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:54 PM on 12/01/2008

It's REQUIRED BY LAW in Minnesota.

Why is it that Republicans always hate mandatory recounts if they fear that they'll lose?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:01 PM on 12/01/2008

No problem with madatory recounts. I have a problem with Al saying that he will go to Senate if he looses recount

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:59 PM on 12/02/2008

Two words: Florida 2000. Bush 41's court stopped the count, so it was never finished. When independent counts were conducted, Gore won 8 of 9 of them. That doesn't take into account the ballots that remain in storage facilities, still uncounted. On top of that, two whistleblowers from Diebold recently came forward with information that the software patches introduced into the voting machines in Georgia swung the election to Chambliss. And why did many counties in Ohio illegally destroy the ballots from 2004? Still wondering why people want accurate vote counts? And just when did the Democrats get the result they wanted? And don't say Obama, since he won despite six million votes being thrown out.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:15 PM on 12/01/2008

Yea its a law... must be why your a Proud Neo Con, facts are still arguable.... even if they are in fact a fact

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:21 PM on 12/01/2008
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