Conservatives Form Rival Group To Episcopal Church

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RACHEL ZOLL | December 3, 2008 09:16 PM EST | AP

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NEW YORK — Theological conservatives upset by liberal views of U.S. Episcopalians and Canadian Anglicans formed a rival North American province Wednesday, in a long-developing rift over the Bible that erupted when Episcopalians consecrated the first openly gay bishop.

The announcement represents a new challenge to the already splintering, 77-million-member world Anglican fellowship and the authority of its spiritual leader, Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams.

The new Anglican Church in North America includes four breakaway Episcopal dioceses, dozens of individual parishes in the U.S. and Canada, and splinter groups that left the Anglican family years, or in one case, more than a century ago.

Its future status in the Anglican Communion is unclear.

It is unprecedented for an Anglican national province to be created where any other such national church already exists. But traditionalists say the new group is needed to represent the true historic tradition of Anglican Christianity.

Bishop Robert Duncan, who leads the breakaway Diocese of Pittsburgh, is the proposed new leader of the new North American province, which says it has 100,000 members.

"The Lord is displacing the Episcopal Church," Duncan said in a news conference in Wheaton, Ill., where the proposed constitution for the new province was drafted. He noted that membership and worship attendance in the U.S. denomination have been declining for years.

"We are a body that is growing, that is planting new congregations, that is concerned to be an authentic Christian presence in the U.S. and Canada," Duncan said.

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The Rev. Charles Robertson, adviser to Episcopal Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, said in a statement that "there is room within The Episcopal Church for people with different views and we regret that some have felt the need to depart from the diversity of our common life in Christ."

Williams has been striving for years to find a compromise that would keep Anglicans together, but he lacks the power to force a resolution.

The Anglican Communion links 38 self-governing provinces that trace their roots to the missionary work of the Church of England. The Episcopal Church is the Anglican body in the U.S., while the Anglican Church in Canada represents the communion in that country.

Anglicans have debated for decades over what members of their fellowship should believe. Tensions boiled over in 2003 when Episcopalians consecrated New Hampshire Bishop V. Gene Robinson, who lives with his longtime male partner.

Around the same time, some Canadian Anglican leaders began authorizing blessing ceremonies for same-sex unions, saying biblical teachings on social justice required them to do so. The actions pushed the Anglican family to the brink of schism.

A London spokesman for the Anglican Communion did not respond to a request for comment.

Archdeacon Michael Pollesel, general secretary of the Anglican Church of Canada, said the new province leaders "really have no standing with the Anglican Communion at this point."

Robertson underscored that the U.S. and Canadian churches are "the recognized presence of the Anglican Communion in North America."

The impact of Wednesday's announcement on the 2.1 million-member Episcopal Church, and the Anglican Church of Canada, with has about 640,000 people on its rolls, was unclear.

There are conservatives in both countries who will not join the new province and instead have vowed to stay within their national denominations despite theological differences.

The new province will not be fully formed for months, or perhaps longer, as it goes through the process of approving a new constitution and leadership. Members of the new church also must overcome their own theological differences, over ordaining women and other issues.

In the four breakaway Episcopal dioceses, legal challenges over property will likely take resources away from building the new province. The four dioceses are Fort Worth, Texas; Pittsburgh; Quincy, Ill.; and San Joaquin, based in Fresno, Calif. National Episcopal leaders are helping local parishioners reorganize those dioceses.

The new conservative province already has the support of seven leaders of Anglican national churches, called primates, including the archbishops of Nigeria, Rwanda, Kenya and the Southern Cone, based in Argentina. Duncan and others are soliciting more support from the overseas archbishops. However, it's not known whether that will lead to full acceptance by the communion.

____

On the Net:

Anglican province for North America: http://www.united-anglicans.org/

(This version corrects title of Canadian church leader Pollesel.)

NEW YORK — Theological conservatives upset by liberal views of U.S. Episcopalians and Canadian Anglicans formed a rival North American province Wednesday, in a long-developing rift over the Bibl...
NEW YORK — Theological conservatives upset by liberal views of U.S. Episcopalians and Canadian Anglicans formed a rival North American province Wednesday, in a long-developing rift over the Bibl...
 
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Everyone should know what these people are all about check out this video:

http://dearkitty.blogsome.com/2008/01/28/christian-fundamentalism-in-the-usa/

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:38 PM on 12/04/2008

"Liberal" and "conservative" are political, not theological, terms, so it makes little sense to use them to describe views on doctrinal issues. But his quasi-schism is actually about politics -- pure and simple. Rather than just come out and admit that, these folks cloak their POLITICAL views in theology and doctrine.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:31 PM on 12/04/2008

It's just amazing to me that the bible can be interpreted in so many ways.....depending on what your intentions are. But it's scary to know that some people actually interpret it to justify the horrible things they do to other people. One book holds so much power for so many people. Life goes on.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:54 PM on 12/04/2008
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:24 PM on 12/04/2008

I believe the guiding principle is: my way or the highway.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:43 PM on 12/04/2008
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Will these breakaway Anglicans get to keep the churches and other church property for their own tax free use or will it stay with the official recognized church?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:34 PM on 12/04/2008
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many loooong court cases will ensue.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:55 PM on 12/04/2008
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If the Episcopal church is not conservative enough for their views, why don't they become Catholics or Orthodox Christians? Why insist on remaining Episcopalian?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:26 PM on 12/04/2008
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They're all-around bigots, equal opportunity objectors, conservatives of the finest right wing reactionary vintage. The were born Episcopal; they are going to die Episcopal, their kind of Episcopal.

Hope that helps explain things.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:59 PM on 12/04/2008

If the Democrat party came out against abortion, against gay "marriage", against universal health care, against unions, against affirmative action, and against equal pay for women would you help form a new Democrat party or would you become a Republican?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:42 PM on 12/04/2008
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Hmm. To me, the question is: If I decided to become pro-life and oppose gay marriage, universal health care, unions, affirmative action, and equal pay for women, would I have the right to call myself a Democrat? These common Democratic stances have evolved in the Democratic party, and Democrats have gone along with this evolution of thought or have left. In fact, the Democratic party used to be the more conservative party, but the Civil Rights Act of the 1960's drastically changed that with many southern Democrats leaving the party and going to the Republican party. It is rumored that Johnson said at the time that it would take the party ten years to recover. Well, if you look at all the red states in the south, which once were Democratic states, one can see that the party has been lost to the South for much longer than ten years. Still, southern Democrats made a decision a long time ago to either go with the changes or to leave. Interestingly, many Republicans are now asking themselves whether they are pleased with their party's swinging further and further to the right and asking themselves whether they should stay or leave, as we saw during this last election and the vocal support from well-known Republicans for Obama/Biden, not McCain/Palin.

I don't see organized religion as being drastically different. Organizations, whether religious or political, change, and either you can go along with the change or not.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:58 PM on 12/05/2008

This move is about property more than ideology. If they can stay part of the Anglican church they get to keep their churches, If they withdraw completely the Episcopal church keeps them. It's a cynical ploy to not take responsibility for a full out schism. These homophobic parishes should form their own churches instead of forcing the Archbishop to recognize them and to compromise the teaching of the Anglican community. How can a church advocate opposing moral views? Also these churches don't want to be affiliated with the black African bishops because they're white Amuricans and they might lose the social cache that comes with being a high white Episcopalian. They're trying to manipulate the system so that it accommodates the white male prerogatives which they feel is their birthright. Oh, and the little ladies agree with their husbands, too.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:05 PM on 12/04/2008
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Whether you choose to believe this or not is your prerogative.

The destruction of churches from within is a big plan of the Moonies.
They move their followers into small towns where they become members of local Christian churches.
Once they are members of these churches they gain influence by making huge donations to the church.
Once they gain influence in the church they make sweeping changes to the church causing a lot of it's members to leave because they do not like the new changes.
Their goal is to destroy as many Christan churches as they can, it is a "War on Christianity".
You may think this is a crazy conspiracy theory, which is exactly what they rely on.
I saw this happen to my own Baptist church in upstate New York.
The Moonies have remained in the shadows for many years and most people do not even know how BIG they have become in the past 30 years.

http://www.realjournalism.net/times.htm

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:43 PM on 12/04/2008
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Again - nothing new here.
All these franchises are in competition (only so many millions of gullible folks you know) and profit directly from the demise of their rivals.
Think the Catholics would be sad to see the Mormans go away?
How about Hindus and Muslims?
They may employ different means, but the goals are the same:

1) Increase profits
2) Increase control of market

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:56 PM on 12/04/2008
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No, the other groups are not committing espionage to destroy their rivals churches like how the Moonies are doing it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:09 PM on 12/04/2008
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And all those people who leave the churches in question, do what? Disappear? Immediately, decide to join the 'winners." And, no one but you and yours have noticed?

Seems that there's a hole in the plan one can put the QE2 through.

Conspiracy theories go much better with alcohol and anti-depressants. You're overdue.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:05 PM on 12/04/2008

This is utter nonsense.

The destruction of the church is manifested in those within the western culture, who sought to separate and co-opt the origin of the early Israelites and Hebrews, beginning some 300 years after 'Jesus' was said to have walked the Earth. The clear pattern was launched when the Roman Emperor agreed that he was no longer "God" and sought to usurp and legitimize 'Christianity' into the european culture. The western world since this time mixed 'religion' with 'politics' and set in motion the many great Muslim v. Christian wars, leaving the reality of those original figures in the dustbin of history whose historic Jesus spoke Americ, a dialect of the African nation of Ethiopia.

The church suffers no conspiracy that it can not repel; it has in its disposal the truth, however, the manner into which Christianity has been co-opted by Europeans to colonialize nations of people of color carries with it the paradox of the said Europeans to recognize their original sin: which was moral dishonesty. It then seems rather appropriate that some of those today who set themselves up as representatives of this dishonesty are in turmoil, as the magnificent 'lies' are becoming harder and harder to sustain in light of the many who are becoming more aware of the 'truth'.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:14 AM on 12/05/2008

At last, after thousands of false starts, over thousands of years

the One True Church has (pardon the expression) evolved!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:33 PM on 12/04/2008
    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:40 PM on 12/04/2008
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But is it the fittest? I mean, they just dumped the part of the congregation that works out!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:40 PM on 12/04/2008

THIS move is like a splinter of wood in deed,,,,,,it will prick, poke and cause wounds,cuts and like a sliver ,hurt many for the greedy and stupid foolish few !!!! Eventually splinter groups beak up themselves as they become more splintered,mislead,bitter,befuddled, and lost......these bishops are wrong on the GOSPEL issues,wrong on ecclesiastical reasons and wrong on the way they are going about this from church laws both canon and other logistics,,,,we need to ship out the trolls in their mid late 60's-70's who live in past before women could be priests etc and move into the bright sunshine of human rights and love for all humanity. The old stodgy fuddy dud ways will not do in these times,,,all that is new/ be a new and different person,,,book of JOHN..........this goes out to other old mainline denominations that are stagnant in membership and moving on progressive issues of faith etc....come alive in the spirit !

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:10 PM on 12/04/2008
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This is such a surprise?
This kind of thing has been going on for several thousands of years.
Groups find opportunity in gaps of current sect and exploit them for their own profit. Groups propose slightly altered dogma to siphon off sheep from the parent sect. Sometimes there are even vast changes proposed in the rhetoric that lead to entirely new sects (Christians, Muslims, Mormans, Scientologists, etc.). The point is to maintain a product viable enough to generate profit and to out compete the challengers for gullible patrons. How do you think we arrived at so many different franchises operating simultaneously?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:05 PM on 12/04/2008
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There are names for people who siphon sheep. And, for sure, sheep siphoning will get you arrested in most of the USA.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:08 PM on 12/04/2008
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But funny thing is, not in Red states.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:14 PM on 12/04/2008
- Fuji I'm a Fan of Fuji permalink

The biblically-based churches are growing. The churches that change message to stay "relevant" are losing congregations. End of story.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:02 PM on 12/04/2008
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Actually, it's questionable if they're biblically-based. The conservatives are far too obsessed with gay sex, or any sex for that matter. Jesus never broached the topic in the sermon on the mount; in fact, his only comment about sex concerned adultery. Wonder how many of these biblically-based conservatives can honestly say they've never broken that commandment? What about lying? Dishonoring father and mother? Coveting they neighber's property? Talk about taking the speck out of your brother's eye while ignoring the log in your own.

The reason why "biblically-based" churches are growing is that the minister(s) usually tell these people what to believe and think. They're too frightened of the world or too lazy to do it themselves. These people are nothing more than the Scribes and Pharisees of the New Testament.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:17 PM on 12/04/2008
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I bet most couldn't name 1/2 of the 10 suggestions

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:48 PM on 12/04/2008
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Green M&M's taste much better than Red M7M's. End of story.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:19 PM on 12/04/2008
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The fastest growing religious choice in the USA is "None"
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm
to be continued....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:45 PM on 12/04/2008

I just spoke to a friend who attends a "biblically-based church" that advertises on its sign (and in the phonebook) with the phrase: All King James Version... All the Time! And this friend argues that the KJV reflects the way "God speaks."

So, the God of the Ancient Israelites and Jesus (who most likely spoke Aramaic, maybe knowing some Greek and Latin as the former was the lingua franca of the eastern Roman Empire and Latin had official status) both speak in the idiom of a seventeenth-century, educated Englishman!?! Really?!? I guess only the true Son of God would speak in a language that was 1600 years in the future...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:37 PM on 12/04/2008
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If the Bible is the ultimate authority then my interpretation of the scriptures is just as good as Pat Robertson's or Pope Benedict's or Pastor Bob's down at First Baptist.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:22 PM on 12/04/2008
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There is some evidence and speculation based upon His writings that The Apostle Paul may have been homosexual or a history of homosexuality...it is for God to decide who he chooses to serve him which is why these here and those that harbor these prejudices in the churches towrds homosexuals are not only guilty of prejudice but also a form of blasphemy...

http://andrejkoymasky.com/liv/fam/bio1/paul01.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:00 PM on 12/04/2008
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ROFLMAO

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:02 PM on 12/04/2008
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Sorry bad link, this is not the only place on the net this has been discussed and I have heard it discussed in some mighty high places such as Harvard Divinity School and elsewhere..it first came to light around 20 years ago...

I was a Philosophy and Religion major...so I know there are those much less aware and educated who will scoff at this they also know nothing of the Sons of Light as well and the Essenes which means they know almost nothing about Christ His true background and the origins of Christianity...either...

http://andrejkoymasky.com/liv/fam/biop1/paul01.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:08 PM on 12/04/2008
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Tons of popes, bishops, priests and ministers are known to have been gay.
Why the hypocracy?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:22 PM on 12/04/2008
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I can't access your link, but if it refers to Paul's sin in Roman's 7, then that's no evidence that he was gay; to argue otherwise is to argue from silence and simply speculate. You can just as easily argue that Paul was a pedophile.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:35 PM on 12/04/2008

Oh my god!! He was?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:11 PM on 12/04/2008

I don't know if he was gay or not but I have always thought he wasn't crazy about women.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:56 PM on 12/04/2008

This is sad. Episcopalians were one of the only decent forms of Christianity left in America. Oh well, I guess the evils of ancient religion are tough to overcome by any group.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:58 PM on 12/04/2008
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Gee, whiz, let's try this logically.

Episcopalians = decent
Episcopalians - bigoted Episcopalians = even more decent

Hmmmm...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:06 PM on 12/04/2008

well, we still have the United Church of Christ, if that counts

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:25 PM on 12/04/2008

Rest assured there are far more Episcopalians who do not sympathize with the dissenting Bishops, who have, after all, thrown in with the African Bishops, some of whom have endorsed execution for gay people. Most parishes go right on and give little or no thought to them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:17 PM on 12/04/2008
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Conservatism as a way of being is based in fear. Fear of difference, fear of change, fear of others. As such, conservatism is something people really should grow out of... if they grow up and out. It would be in the best interest of our ever-smaller planet if all the world's religious conservatives would gather together and fight out their differences among themselves and leave the rest of the world alone. All the religious intolerance the world confronts today and has ever been exposed to has been brought to us by the religious "conservatives". They are the "true believers" who are the only ones who know and follow the "real truth". Everyone else is "wrong". They are responsible for the divisions, arguments, confrontations, damnations, intolerance and violence that is produced by some religious people. It is never sufficient just to say, "my hands are clean of violence" if your philosophy of being and public advocacy rationalize intolerance in the name of being "right".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:54 PM on 12/04/2008
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